Hi everyone,

I just started teaching bass guitar lessons. Unfortunately, I am by no means an experienced bass guitar player myself, but I have played double bass for 15 years. Here are the questions I have:

1. A couple of the instruction books I've looked at has the student drop his thumb to the E string while playing the D string and then resting the thumb on the A string to play the G string. Is this normal/practical?

2. Speaking of lesson books, which is the best one for new students? I'm teaching my student through the Hal Leonard bass method. The thing I don't like is it has the student drop his thumb like I mentioned above. Also, instead of having the student use 1 finger per fret, the student would play the 1st fret with the 1st finger, the 2nd fret with the 2nd finger and the 3rd fret with the 4th finger.

3. Last question: to add some fun to our lessons (and hopefully to entice my student to practice more), I asked my student if there was a song he wanted to learn, to which he replied "Taxman" by the Beatles. I'm just wondering if maybe it's too early to work on something like that since he's only learned notes up to the 4th fret on all strings (which is why he'd be reading tablature). What do you think?

Sorry about all the questions. Thanks for your help!!

dropping the thumb is completely normal, everyone does it. makes it easier to reach D and G, and mutes the strings you aren't playing.

I don't think its ever too early to start learning songs, thats what makes it fun!

Thanks for the quick reply! So, should I just start having my student dropping his thumb immediately? We've had about 8 lessons so far, and the whole time I had him rest his thumb on the pick-up regardless of the string he's playing.

I guess the main reason I don't like moving the thumb is that I imagine it would be difficult to keep moving your thumb when moving to different strings. Is it not as bad as I'm thinking?

Thanks for the quick reply! So, should I just start having my student dropping his thumb immediately? We've had about 8 lessons so far, and the whole time I had him rest his thumb on the pick-up regardless of the string he's playing.

I guess the main reason I don't like moving the thumb is that I imagine it would be difficult to keep moving your thumb when moving to different strings. Is it not as bad as I'm thinking?
Not bad at all, and great for muting. But both thumb placements are valid and commonly used.

http://www.tothestage.com/MediaDetail.PAGE?ActiveID=1142&IType=1&MediaType=2&MediaId=445

Hi everyone,

I just started teaching bass guitar lessons. Unfortunately, I am by no means an experienced bass guitar player myself, but I have played double bass for 15 years.

First of all, welcome to TalkBass. :D

Please forgive me for being a bit negative in your first thread here...but I've gotta call you out a bit on this one.

Would you recommend to a beginning double bassist that he or she take lessons from a bass guitarist with 15 years of playing experience, very little on double bass and none teaching?

In my opinion you may do a disservice to beginning students if you don't have command of the instrument you're teaching.

The correct string muting techniques and hand positioning can be somewhat subjective, and to teach proper technique you need to have already mastered those techniques yourself.

You haven't had a chance to fill out your profile, so I'll ask where you're located. Are there special circumstances to your teaching this student? Are there experienced bass guitar teachers in your area? Are you charging this student for lessons, and do you intend on teaching other students as a profession? What age is your student?

As for question #3...teaching anyone to play a song using TAB is a terrible idea at any stage of music instruction, especially starting out. If you've got a student that won't practice, you've got a problem that TAB won't fix. As for learning a song like Taxman to keep things interesting...well...standing comes first, than walking, then running, then dancing, you dig? Showing a student how to play a particular song isn't a good idea either. If you teach a beginning student shortcuts, you'll be teaching them impatience. While studying and working on the basics of theory and where the notes are located on the instrument, students should be encouraged to listen to any music that inspires them and try to work out the bass parts by ear. Then at the appropriate time you can work the tune into your lessons and help them correct their mistakes in a meaningful way.

I hope I'm not sounding too harsh. But in my opinion teaching, especially beginners, is a serious matter.

I encourage you to do a search in the Double Bass forums here (affectionately known as the Dark Side) about teachers and qualifications. Think I'm being tough? ;)

Again, welcome to TB and I hope I'm not getting up in your grill too much. FWIW I don't consider myself qualified to be a truly effective teacher.

I hope I'm not sounding too harsh. But in my opinion teaching, especially beginners, is a serious matter.

+1 on all that.

As said, dropping the thumb is a good idea for finger placement and muting. I think Jaco said that the real problem with electric bass is not getting it to play, but getting it to shut up. The term muting is not used here in the same context as it it with the bowed string instruments or brass instruments, but rather it means being able to control the length of the note and being sure that you aren't producing two pitchs when you need only one. Very important for clear clean playing. Muting can be done several ways, resting the thumb on the string lower than the one you are playing is just one way.

Where you pluck is also important. Plucking over the pickup is a good location, but not the only one. For beginers it probably a good thing just keep them plucking there. As they get more comfortable with the instrument they can move closer to the bridge for a clearer more treble sound, or closer to the neck for a bassier sound. This is the same as bow placement.

Good luck.

I'd like to preface this by saying that I've never formally taught music, but I have given beginner lessons to a few of my friends on guitar. The following is based on what works best from my experience, but I remind you that I'm not a teacher by trade.

While I do agree with Craig that it's important to crawl before you can run, I disagree that you shouldn't teach him specific songs. In my opinion, It's a good idea to teach beginners songs they enjoy. The trick is finding ones that properly service their lessons and skill level. But I think that if you don't try and make the music selections relevant to the student, you risk losing their attention. My knowledge of "Taxman" is limited, as I haven't heard it in years and I never paid much attention to the bass, but it may not be an appropriate starting point. My advice would be to borrow a few favorite CDs from the student, and go through to look for something that is easy on bass and would appropriately accompany his lessons. It might be the case that there is no entire song that fits that description, and in that case, you could just narrow it down to a specific part of a song, like a verse with a cool riff in it or something. And you could make learning the entire song into a long term goal for the student.

As far as technique goes, and structuring the lessons, I think you should follow the book as closely as possible. As somebody who considers themselves a decent bass player, I often find myself disagreeing with a lot of beginner lessons as well. For me, for example, I don't think that degree of thumb movement is necessary the way I play bass. However, it wouldn't hurt him to learn and be able to do it that way, even if he does decide in the long term to embrace a different technique. And the fact of the matter is that the book was written by people who generally know what they are talking about, so I can't imagine there is any information in there that is downright wrong. I say that both you and your student should go through and learn everything exactly as it's shown. If you try and modify the lessons, you may end up confusing the student, and causing problems down the line when lessons begin to be built on top of previous lessons.

Also, I personally do not see TAB as something to be avoided. I agree that a mastery of standard notation is a very good thing to learn, but TAB is very useful for students in the beginning stages of learning bass or guitar, especially if technique is being taught separate from theory (as it often is, and as it sometimes should be, depending on the student and circumstances). There is a variety of levels on which music and technique can be understood, and I think TAB is a helpful resource in that it simplifies matters and filters out aspects that may confuse a beginner student. I would, have, and will continue to teach beginner musicians using TAB. In a lot of cases, I think it's very important first and foremost to get the student to enjoy the instrument to get the properly enthusiastic about learning it. And I know I'm going to get a lot of critics for saying this, but sometimes you have to make sacrifices to get that to happen. If I would have started out my friends learning sheet music, I don't think a single one of them would have stuck with their lessons. However, after getting them primed, it's much easier to convince them that reading music is a valuable skill and that they should learn it.

Let's not be too hard on this guy, he's clearly an experienced musician, and he's conscientious enough to seek out advice from other TBers. Perhaps his student doesn't have access to an experienced bass guitar teacher....?

Anyway, in answer to the thumb question, I can only say that if you check out a dozen famous technically proficient players, you will probably see a dozen different right hand techniques. Right hand thumb placement is a very personal issue, and I usually give my students several options to choose between:

1) Keeping the thumb on the pickup when playing the E string, then dropping it onto the E when playing the other strings (and using the ring finger to mute the A string)

2) Always keeping the thumb on the pickup and using the ring and pinky fingers to mute the E and A strings (this is tricky)

3) The "floating thumb" technique, in which the thumb isn't really anchored anywhere, but rather draped across all the lower strings for muting

The key things are consistency, and effective muting.

I have yet to find a comprehensive method book which I can unconditionally endorse. The best one I ever saw was "How to Play Bass Guitar" by Laurence Canty. He tells me that a new edition is coming out soon.

I agree that including some "actual music" in early lessons is a good idea to keep students inspired, but Taxman might be a little difficult for starters, unless this is an unusually coordinated student. And I have no problem using TAB for beginners, but I always give them the bass clef version too, and I try to wean them off of TAB as quickly as possible. Hope this helps! :)

If he really wants to learn Taxman but you don't want him to become dependent on TAB, let me suggest another alternative:

Put on a record during a lesson, and cooperatively work on figuring out the bass part by ear. This will let him learn the song he wants, and will get him started on improving his ear, which is a very valuable skill. Then as you learn the song, you can make suggestions about his technique. My guitar teacher and I used to sit down for hours working out Eric Clapton solos from recordings, and it's helped me out a lot with my ability to figure things out by hearing them.

As far as the thumb placement thing, just let him use whatever works best for him. I have big hands, so I just anchor my thumb on the B string except when I'm playing it, and I have no trouble playing all the way down to the C. Other people might need to move around a bit more.

SmashbrothaX I think you should seek out a good electric bass teacher for yourself before you start teaching others.

There is nothing rong with TAB as notation, in fact in many way's its superior to western, its just pompous to think that TAB isn't useful. I can read western notation fine and have my grade 5 royal associated board music theory with a merit (1 mark off a distinction), i learnt that in a month from nothing as well. but if i want to learn a pop song there is no way in hell I'll take a score of it and learn it from that, i will look at TAB which is free of the internet and listen to the song on itunes (as i want to learn it its likely i already own it). so big up TAB x

First of all, welcome to TalkBass. :D

Please forgive me for being a bit negative in your first thread here...but I've gotta call you out a bit on this one.

Would you recommend to a beginning double bassist that he or she take lessons from a bass guitarist with 15 years of playing experience, very little on double bass and none teaching?

In my opinion you may do a disservice to beginning students if you don't have command of the instrument you're teaching.

The correct string muting techniques and hand positioning can be somewhat subjective, and to teach proper technique you need to have already mastered those techniques yourself.

You haven't had a chance to fill out your profile, so I'll ask where you're located. Are there special circumstances to your teaching this student? Are there experienced bass guitar teachers in your area? Are you charging this student for lessons, and do you intend on teaching other students as a profession? What age is your student?

As for question #3...teaching anyone to play a song using TAB is a terrible idea at any stage of music instruction, especially starting out. If you've got a student that won't practice, you've got a problem that TAB won't fix. As for learning a song like Taxman to keep things interesting...well...standing comes first, than walking, then running, then dancing, you dig? Showing a student how to play a particular song isn't a good idea either. If you teach a beginning student shortcuts, you'll be teaching them impatience. While studying and working on the basics of theory and where the notes are located on the instrument, students should be encouraged to listen to any music that inspires them and try to work out the bass parts by ear. Then at the appropriate time you can work the tune into your lessons and help them correct their mistakes in a meaningful way.

I hope I'm not sounding too harsh. But in my opinion teaching, especially beginners, is a serious matter.

I encourage you to do a search in the Double Bass forums here (affectionately known as the Dark Side) about teachers and qualifications. Think I'm being tough? ;)

Again, welcome to TB and I hope I'm not getting up in your grill too much. FWIW I don't consider myself qualified to be a truly effective teacher.

I kind of agree with this one.
Only teach what you REALLY Know about.
It will feel better for you, and you are not short changing your students.
You will also keep your (I take it ...good) reputation in tact.
My 2 cent.

There is nothing rong with TAB as notation, in fact in many way's its superior to western, its just pompous to think that TAB isn't useful.

Give a TAB to a trumpet player and tell me that it's superior to standard notation.

Zomg teh interwebz are full of n00bz! LOL ROFL OMG *** Ur doin it wrong!!!!1!!!11

Now tell me how that sentence is superior to English. If you're going to learn to read then you might as well do it the right way.

To all of the other posters on this thread, I'm 50/50 in my own opinion of the OPs question. Once he figures out the mechanics of electric bass (which is really only a small percentage of being a musician) then he should be fully qualified to teach bass guitar students because he has an understanding of music as opposed to bass guitar operation.

I studied with a tenor sax player for a couple of years to learn how to improvise better. After you get over the initial hump of "put your finger here" and "C is here, here and here" then you can get to work playing music. A teacher doesn't have to be able to out play his students, he has to be able to convey information in a clear and concise way to get to understanding. A high school music teacher has to take classes on woodwind, brass, percussion and string technique but if the teacher is a trombone player don't expect him to be able to play flute better than a flute student.

There is nothing rong with TAB as notation

Except that it does not tell you anything.
Using tab you won't be able to relate ideas you may have , to a pianist or sax player etc.( as said by onlyclave)
I'd say Don't go there.
It is used by beginners quite often , but I think one may as well invest a little time and learn dots.
That will get you a lot further.
I would be really, really worried if a bass instructor came along wanting to sell me TAB.
I would certainly not hire him/her .
My 2 cent.
;)

Tab serve a useful function; it keeps amateurs from learning to read real music, thus making the skill of interpreting musical notation scarcer, and therefore more valuable. It has also spawned software like Guitar Hero, which gives amateurs the idea that moving your fingers quickly enough will make you a guitarist. Soon musicians will form a secret society, like the Masons, to guard our closely held secrets ;0)

Tab serve a useful function; it keeps amateurs from learning to read real music, thus making the skill of interpreting musical notation scarcer, and therefore more valuable. It has also spawned software like Guitar Hero, which gives amateurs the idea that moving your fingers quickly enough will make you a guitarist. Soon musicians will form a secret society, like the Masons, to guard our closely held secrets ;0)

EXCELLENT!
:D:hyper::D

TAB? It only shows one where to put your fingers, in a specific tuning. It provides no musical information. There's nothing that indicates pitch, rhythm (at least most of it), and there's no connection to harmony. It's a trained monkey trick, not musical education.

If you're going to teach someone to play a song before they have the experience to read notation, then sit down with them and help them figure it out by ear, a bit at a time. Have them sing what they're playing to fix it in their head and it'll be a lot better than tabbing it out.

jte

I've been playing electric bass for 25 years. A few years ago I thought I'd start giving lessons. Why not? I know what I am doing. I have many years experience in a wide variety of bands, music genres and so on. I can read, write and arrange music - I think I have everything I need...

Except experience as a teacher. So I decided I would take some lessons not only to improve my own playing abilities, but to also learn how to teach someone. I was upfront with my teacher and let him know that I wanted to teach too, but was afraid that my lack of teaching experience would be detrimental to my students.

He didn't agree - he felt I would do fine as a teacher, but he agreed to not only give me lessons, but to also help me put together a lesson plan that I could use to teach. Even though he felt I would have done fine, I am very happy that I spent a few months as a student to get a first hand view of how a teacher goes about things.

I've been playing electric bass for 25 years. A few years ago I thought I'd start giving lessons. Why not? I know what I am doing. I have many years experience in a wide variety of bands, music genres and so on. I can read, write and arrange music - I think I have everything I need...

Except experience as a teacher. So I decided I would take some lessons not only to improve my own playing abilities, but to also learn how to teach someone. I was upfront with my teacher and let him know that I wanted to teach too, but was afraid that my lack of teaching experience would be detrimental to my students.

He didn't agree - he felt I would do fine as a teacher, but he agreed to not only give me lessons, but to also help me put together a lesson plan that I could use to teach. Even though he felt I would have done fine, I am very happy that I spent a few months as a student to get a first hand view of how a teacher goes about things.

A very, very wise approach. The best teachers still have teachers themselves.

I think TAB is not a good idea. Sure, it does make things easy since it shows the fret # and such, but it just makes a student lazy and "stupid" in my opinion.

If you don't mind taking suggestion from me, why don't YOU learn the song and show, partly, to him. He won't be able to remember it once the lesson is over so when he goes home to play the song, he'll have to learn it with his ear. But he'll have decent idea where the notes are on the fret... At least thats how I learned once i got a teacher.

Teaching bass well requires not only experience and skill, but a method. After decades of playing and years of teaching, I can honestly say that I can really impart information to willing students that will make a difference in their playing. I'm glad they give me the opportunity to do so, and relieved that my teaching is worth their time and money.

+1


SmashbrothaX I think you should seek out a good electric bass teacher for yourself before you start teaching others.

1.) I'm not sure if it's "normal" but many players do it. On a 4 string bass I tend to rest my thumb on the E string when playing the other 3 but I don't move my thumb down to the A when playing the D or G strings. The advantage to resting the thumb on any of the strings is to mute those strings when not playing them. I use the 3rd and 4th fingers on my right hand to mute the lower-pitched strings when playing the higher-pitched ones so I have the muting covered with that.

If there aren't any problems with muting and the student is already producing a decent tone, I tend to work with the RH techniques the student is already using. If the student is able to play and mute the lower strings when playing the higher ones, I wouldn't try to force the moving the thumb thing.

2.) Honestly, I haven't really found any one method that works for all students. I usually customize the lessons for each student and use quite a bit of my own materials. I like the MI books. The Encyclopedia of Reading Rhythms is one book I always keep a couple of copies around for students learning to sight read. The Hal Leonard books look good, but I haven't used them personally.

I teach both one-finger-per-fret and the Simandl 1,2,4 you mention. They are both useful.

3.) The Taxman thing sounds perfectly fine to me. What I try to do when teaching songs is to pick technical and/or musical aspects of the bass lines and try to connect it to a concept that you want to teach. Could be position shifts, a scale, a technical right or left hand approach, etc. If you can make that type of connection the student has a much better chance of retaining the lessons, not to mention they enjoy them and get excited about playing. You don't have to teach the whole song in one lesson. You can break things down. You can also use things like teaching songs as a carrot on a stick - you know, once you can name all of the notes on the E string up to the 5th fret we will learn a new bass line to a tune.

Good luck!

I agree that there is no method for all students, but if you have a logical progression in mind when you teach a student, that's the core of a method. I try to integrate theory and technique so that I'm not reduced to teaching licks OR just giving exercises that have no musical meaning. I try to help students shape their own practice times so that they progress quickly and find joy in musical expression. This varies from student to student; each student has to set his or her own goals. My job as teacher is to help students identify their goals and find ways to meet them so they can enjoy their playing and express their musical selves.

I am a firm believer in reading music. I actually put tape over all transcriptions that have tab underneath the notation and then photocopy the score.

IMO, Reading is not that difficult. just a few minutes a day and anyone can be reading. I suggest Bach for bass and etudes to learn from. Most of these are scales. (which we practice anyway). take it slow and limit your mistakes.

It is a good idea to place the sheet music in front the tuning pegs. This way the bass fretboard is in sight as well.

As your student starts to get use to reading, you can show the modes and hand position. You want to get your student to be able to look at the music and determine what the highest note and lowest notes are, find a mode and position to play in where most of the notes are under their fingers to limit shifting.

Ear training is very important, start with easy songs that most people know, nursery rhymes, christmas songs are a good to start

Identify the intervals, make it fun

Good Luck !

My problem with tab is that we're seeing a generation of ' visual' bassists who think purely in shapes, and don't have the ears to hear when the tab is wrong, or even tune the bass without an electronic tuner. Learn a tune from tab and that's all you learn, with dots, you soon start to notice how the music works.

Having said that, beginners need encouragement, and getting them playing songs, IMHO is essential. Theproblem arises when you start to wean them off tab.

Pete

I'm curious to see what the Guitar Hero/Rock Band generation will produce.

They'll have good ears from having to sing the vocals in pitch.

They'll have good timing & coordination since that's 90% of what those things test.

But they'll think playing guitar is chugging through power chords and playing lead guitar.

My problem with tab is that we're seeing a generation of ' visual' bassists who think purely in shapes, and don't have the ears to hear when the tab is wrong, or even tune the bass without an electronic tuner. Learn a tune from tab and that's all you learn, with dots, you soon start to notice how the music works.

Ugh...as soon as I start getting decent at reading again, someone hands me a ton of tabs to learn stuff from anyway and I loose all my reading ability.

They'll have good ears from having to sing the vocals in pitch.

Thats if they ever do any of the singing... also since you can't change the key of the song I find I can sing some of those songs like nothing and others I can't do to save my life.

I've been studying for a short while now.

We started with volume 1 of the Hal Leonard Series.
Next came Rufus Reid's "The Evolving Bassist".

There is a series of "play alongs" designed to parallel the level of the Hal Leonard Method.
Volume 1 is "Easy Pop Bass Lines". Might be a good companion guide.