Why?


:hmm:

This is easy, you sing what you play to help your ear, you can improvise and compose better if you know the notes. Thats why you sing when you play songs you know so that in the future if you have a song in your head, you can translate the notes in your head straight to your bass without trouble.

What if you really can't hold a note (like me) :(?

I know (in my head) what notes I want to hear, but I'm damned if I can get my body to produce them. That's why I play an instrument in the first place :p.

I always skip past that "sing it" advice, when I see it in books - it's too depressing ;).

Practice makes perfect. Just because you cant do it yet doesnt mean you are doomed forever. That's what I tell myself, anyway.

It's a really good way to learn to play what you hear in your head, and how certain intervals sound. An exercise I do from time to time is to sing and play a melody of completely random notes and try to avoid mistakes, i.e. playing a different note than the one I sing.

It really forces you to play musically, for one. Ever sing something that would be considered musical wankery (sweep arpeggios, ridiculously fast scale runs)? Of course not. If you sing everything you play, you won't be tempted to descend into wankerville.

It really forces you to play musically, for one. Ever sing something that would be considered musical wankery (sweep arpeggios, ridiculously fast scale runs)? Of course not. If you sing everything you play, you won't be tempted to descend into wankerville.

+1

It really forces you to play musically, for one. Ever sing something that would be considered musical wankery (sweep arpeggios, ridiculously fast scale runs)? Of course not. If you sing everything you play, you won't be tempted to descend into wankerville.

+10

You learn to phrase, it trains your ear-brain-hands combo. You eventually get to anything you can sing you can play. Listen to a lot of the Jazz greats they had voices like garbage disposals and you will hear in the background them growling away. You don't have to sing note for note, some sang the shape of lines or target tones. Also for many learning to sing a tune makes it easier to remember and transpose if necessary.

Like HaVIC5 points out music needs to breathe and if you are singing what you play then you will remember to put space into your playing. It's all about developing musicianship.

Ironicaly, one of my main attractions to the bass is the fact that it's in the same register as my voice. Or at least, where my voice used to be. In high school, I was one of three guys that could sing a low D. Not very loud, but I could sing it. Now, after 4 years of not singing, and the fact I now smoke, doesn't help. I can still hit the E though, after a little warm up. Lost all my old chorus music, it was fun to play the bass parts ON the bass. Helped both my playing and learning the line to sing it.

I agree with all of the above, but theres nothing wrong with an occasional visit to wankerville.

It really forces you to play musically, for one. Ever sing something that would be considered musical wankery (sweep arpeggios, ridiculously fast scale runs)? Of course not. If you sing everything you play, you won't be tempted to descend into wankerville.

my guitarist tries to sing sweep arpeggios:p

My guitarist always tries to drum this into my head. he says if you can sing it, you can play it. I have been working on it. it does really help, and i can't sing at all.

my first song using this method was the melody to seasame street. It was pretty amazing how fast you can figure stuff out. now my problem is when i try to do this my brain freezes and i can't think of anything. :(

Drummers have it easy, they don't need to know the key changes :P

My guitarist always tries to drum this into my head. he says if you can sing it, you can play it. I have been working on it. it does really help, and i can't sing at all.

my first song using this method was the melody to seasame street. It was pretty amazing how fast you can figure stuff out. now my problem is when i try to do this my brain freezes and i can't think of anything. :(

Christmas tunes. You'll never forget Christmas tunes.

A critical factor is that if you sing EVERYTHING you play- arpeggios, scales, etc. and do it right (make sure you HEAR the note in your head BEFORE you play it), then it teaches all this ear-trainging stuff you need. Just running scales, arpeggios, and "excersizes" does nothing for teaching you how to play bass beyond the athletic aspect.

But if you force yourself to clearly hear the next note of that James Jamerson line in your head before your fingers get there, it's going to help your brain and fingers relate that sound with what your fingers do. So the next time you hear "that sound"- e.g. when you're trying to cop a line or hear it in your head while improvising, you'll be able to execute that sound more reaidly.

Plus it has the very good advantage of slowing you down to make you HEAR what you're playing instead of just wiggling your fingers.

jte

Drummers have it easy, they don't need to know the key changes :P

it's really annoying when they can't tune their drums up properly though...

My guitarist always tries to drum this into my head. he says if you can sing it, you can play it. I have been working on it. it does really help, and i can't sing at all.

my first song using this method was the melody to seasame street. It was pretty amazing how fast you can figure stuff out. now my problem is when i try to do this my brain freezes and i can't think of anything. :(

You might want to take a sight-singing/aural dictation course. But basically the way you start off is by learning to sing scales. Sing 32 major and 32 minor (natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic ascending/natural minor decending) scales a day, using solfege for each note. This is of course is just a foundation, but when you master this then you should start working on learning to sing what you play.

Because the human voice is the original instrument. All instruments (even percussion) imitate it.

it's really annoying when they can't tune their drums up properly though...

They have machines that do that now. You stick it on the drum head & I think it even turns the drum keys for you.

I do this, and so does my guitarist. It's incredible for your ears, and it really helps my playing as far as soloing/walking and getting the notes I want as I hear them in my head.

Because the human voice is the original instrument. All instruments (even percussion) imitate it.

sorry, I just don't understand why that matters.

it's really annoying when they can't tune their drums up properly though...

I was a recording engineer for a couple years in a big studio and surprised how most drummer can't tune their own drums. Drummers who knew how to tune their drums for recording got a lot work. In fact with studio players a lot of the people who worked a lot weren't the big name players. Recording requires skills most young players aren't even aware of in sound, technique, understanding of all styles, taste, and reading, good ears, and creativity.

If you can't sing what you play, then try playing simple things that you know, out of time, and sing each note after you play it. Matching pitches is a prerequisite to singing, so start there.

Drummers have it easy, they don't need to know the key changes :P

Of the best drummers I've played with, the majority can play through a chord progression on bass, guitar, or keyboard. I have always been impressed by the overall musicianship of good drummers (despite the jokes).

To answer the OP, I used to think I was a "tone deaf" singer, but over time I've gotten a lot better by screaming along to the radio in the car. Also, I find sometimes it is easier to stay on pitch whistling rather than singing. If I can whistle a song in tune, it then becomes much, much easier to learn it on the bass.

To answer the OP - singing is important because it frees you from playing "shapes" on the fretboard. If you just trust your fingers, you'll only play the notes your fingers know. If you can sing a bassline before you play it, you're being more musical and it opens up opportunities to make music that you can intuit, but can't conceive of from a technical point of view.

Whenever I'm stuck writing a song, or someone I know is stuck writing a song, I take the instrument away momentarily and have them SING the next part. Then we bring the instruments back and match the chords to what they're singing. The same goes for your bassline within a song, and so on.

sorry, I just don't understand why that matters.

So you don't see why connecting what you play on bass with the most basic and oldest expression of musical sense matters?

Or do you just not agree with the assumption that instruments should immitate the human voice?

So you don't see why connecting what you play on bass with the most basic and oldest expression of musical sense matters?



No, I don't, which is why I made this thread. If I want my bass playing to improve I'll practice bass, if I want my singing to improve I'll practice singing.

Other than the fact that it can restrain you to make you play more musically, I still don't see any reason to connect the two.

edit: I'm talking about singing as you play, not before you play. There's a difference of course

Other than the fact that it can restrain you to make you play more musically, I still don't see any reason to connect the two.

You just answered your question. Unless you want to play unmusically...

I know that I enjoy listening to a ton of music that's too complex or fast to sing. I don't want that restraint ALL of the time.

It really forces you to play musically, for one. Ever sing something that would be considered musical wankery (sweep arpeggios, ridiculously fast scale runs)? Of course not. If you sing everything you play, you won't be tempted to descend into wankerville.

It never stopped Christina Aguilera :rollno:

No, I don't, which is why I made this thread. If I want my bass playing to improve I'll practice bass, if I want my singing to improve I'll practice singing.

Other than the fact that it can restrain you to make you play more musically, I still don't see any reason to connect the two.

edit: I'm talking about singing as you play, not before you play. There's a difference of course

OH. You're playing 90 notes per second with the BPM cranked up to 180 and you're not interested in playing musically. Yeah, this thread is done.

OH. You're playing 90 notes per second with the BPM cranked up to 180 and you're not interested in playing musically. Yeah, this thread is done.

What are you even talking about? :hmm:

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense...

And there are no automated drum tuners, AFAIK. Even the devices that help really only measure tension... which, except on amazingly perfect drums and heads (i.e. <1% of the market) will not give equal pitch on all the tension rods. Drummers need to develop their ears same as everyone else.

However... singing lines is a great thing. Even the fastest line, if slowed down, should be singable. Or, if it isn't... well... hopefully it sounds awesome fast.

:D

All I know is that even Necrophagist is singable if slowed down a bit... most grindcore, not so much, but hey... it's grindcore, aint it?

^_^

What if you really can't hold a note (like me) :(?

I know (in my head) what notes I want to hear, but I'm damned if I can get my body to produce them. That's why I play an instrument in the first place :p.

I always skip past that "sing it" advice, when I see it in books - it's too depressing ;).


Hum it, anyone can hum in pitch.

As tempos increase you sing shapes of lines and not all the notes. Singing, growling, or moaning along with a song is the equivalent to moving to the groove. It help you relate to the music.

edit: I'm talking about singing as you play, not before you play. There's a difference of courseMy teacher made an interesting point about this today.

There actually isn't supposed to be any difference between these two except that if you sing while you play it's in real time.

What he told me was that singing what you play is one thing, and it won't really do much for your playing. But playing what you sing is something different. If you let what you sing lead your fingers instead of the other way around, you express yourself much more freely. It's not easy to do, but it definitely made a difference in my playing even after just 20 minutes. This is definitely something I'm going to be working on a lot from now on.

Well, EADG mx, singing as you play would be to check if you are playing what you are singing...if they are the same, then you know your fingers are playing the right thing.

Singing a tune, then playing it would be to check if you can REMEMBER what your bass sounds like in order to reproduce what you just sang, be it a christmas tune or some bassline you want to turn into a song.

I guess, looking back at your original question, it is not the most important to sing at the same time as playing, (if your fingers know where the notes are for sure) BUT if you want to play something you just sang, something your fingers DON'T know...then, you'll need to sing to yourself at the same time your fingers search for the notes...

So really, the question is: Is it important to prove to your audience you can sing and play the notes at the same time?

Imagine a cute girl came to you at open mic night and wanted to sing a song on stage, but she needed you to play the song with her. Even if you don't know the song, if she sang it to you, you should be able to make it out from her singing. Then your ear would be trained to your fingers and vice-versa.

Talking about drummers being in tune...what about singers who don't know what key they're in? It's up to you to figure out what key they're in and follow accordingly.

I asked my teacher about solfege last night. He said I need to be able to sing what I play, but not necessarily using solfege. I just would really like to know what my bass sounds like, so I can make use of the notes when I need them, so when a fun bassline pops out of my head I can pick it out on my fretboard, and then write it down.

...then I'd be a musician....:hmm:....then I might have to quit my day job........:confused:........omg music is going to ruin my life! GAH!!! :hyper: I mean, CHANGE my life in a way I never dreamed it would...I feel the quarter-life crisis coming on!

Well, EADG mx, singing as you play would be to check if you are playing what you are singing...if they are the same, then you know your fingers are playing the right thing.

I would reverse that and say that playing what you sing while you play it is to check that you're playing with your ears & not with your fingers. E.g. your note choices are based on what you're hearing & not familiar fretboard patterns.

My problem with trying to play what I'm singing (sing a melody then go find it) is after more than 3 tries to find the note, I lose the note I was originally singing. I can't seem to track more than 3 notes at a time...

And I'll be durned if I can hear someone sing a melody and then go find it on the bass :(. Working on it.... cause my guitar player or singer will often sing me the line first and see if I can find it. Would be nice to not have to have them pick it out for me... (I'm referring to times when I'm doubling what they're doing). And I want to get to a point where I can mirror the vocals with the bass in order to do a solo......

I don't feel *too* bad though, even musicians that've been playing for 30+ years still have to go poking around if I sing them something to play :). They just get more notes right faster !

My teacher made an interesting point about this today.

There actually isn't supposed to be any difference between these two except that if you sing while you play it's in real time.

What he told me was that singing what you play is one thing, and it won't really do much for your playing. But playing what you sing is something different. If you let what you sing lead your fingers instead of the other way around, you express yourself much more freely. It's not easy to do, but it definitely made a difference in my playing even after just 20 minutes. This is definitely something I'm going to be working on a lot from now on.

There's a difference. I can sing while I play, and while doing so, go along with my fingers and sing what my fingers lead me into. This is no better than letting the fingers do the work instead of your musical voice working.

However, if you react in the opposite way: by following your voice (original idea in your head) with your fingers, you're doing yourself the bigger favor.

Either of these can happen while singing and playing in unison. The latter of the two is more effective for your playing what you hear in your head.

We could be saying the same thing, I guess I just wanted to go into detail.

I also think if you can whistle well, and prefer to do it, it works in the same way as singing. Naturally, I can whistle higher than I can sing, and instead of sounding terrible trying to reach the pitches, I'll whistle them. Just as effective.

But incorporating singing/knowing how things sound will make all the difference in the world in being able to figure things out/being more musical. Period.

My problem with trying to play what I'm singing (sing a melody then go find it) is after more than 3 tries to find the note, I lose the note I was originally singing. I can't seem to track more than 3 notes at a time...

And I'll be durned if I can hear someone sing a melody and then go find it on the bass :(. Working on it.... cause my guitar player or singer will often sing me the line first and see if I can find it. Would be nice to not have to have them pick it out for me... (I'm referring to times when I'm doubling what they're doing). And I want to get to a point where I can mirror the vocals with the bass in order to do a solo......

I don't feel *too* bad though, even musicians that've been playing for 30+ years still have to go poking around if I sing them something to play :). They just get more notes right faster !

Spend some time with it, man. It's easy for me to hear a melody and find it on my bass. I'm now to the point where I can hear a simple melody/bassline, and map it out on my bass in my head, before I touch the instrument. So when I pick the bass up, I can play it correctly on the first try without fishing around and finding it. Sometimes, I even manage to get the key right(!) I don't have perfect pitch, either. I've just spent time with it.

I guess its a pretty personal thing the singing thing ..
i first picked it up when I was learning brass .. you have to pitch in your head while you blow or you have no chance ..

I was then told to sing out loud by a really great older jazz player when i was learning upright in high school .. he said especially when you were jumping to thumb position

I then took it over to fretless electric
as said before you write completely different lines when you are singing and you can actually then write anywhere .. carry some kind of recorder with you and you can take anything down .. I've never wanted to play anything that I couldn't sing .. if you would call it singing as once you are getting some reasonably fast jazz stuff happening you can end up with your singing sounding a bit bibity bobity if you know what i mean (I remember leaning to sing donna lee and learning to solo over it singing before I had the head under my fingers because I could do it on the walk to school) .. but still its having it in your head rather than playing a few shapes and licks that you have down or even worse just screaming up and down a few scales hoping that the notes will sound ok or that your playing so fast that no one is going to notice it sounds like rubbish

singing while you play either helps your singing or your playing so its a win win isn't it
I thought I was never going to sing before I started singing along with my bass .. after a few years of that I was singing backing vocals in a band and later taking the odd turn singing lead vocal in a duet

good luck to al the bass playing singers

Hum it, anyone can hum in pitch.

ooooh, I like this. I've been trying to play what I sing, and it just hasn't been working out. I'm way to critical of my voice so I'm always too timid using it. Never sure if I'm singing the right pitch, even if I am, so lately when working on songs I just play it till I can hear it clearly in my head then find the note on the bass.

I'm gonna try the humming idea, easier to tell if I'm humming in pitch.

Hum it, anyone can hum in pitch.

Double that. That was my instructor's response to my bad singing comment.

Also if you play Cranium, you'll notice pretty much anyone can do humdingers despite not being able to sing.

Double that. That was my instructor's response to my bad singing comment.

Also if you play Cranium, you'll notice pretty much anyone can do humdingers despite not being able to sing.

Cranium(!) Awesome game(!)

Although this has been said in a way already, I should reiterate that playing what you're singing helps your phrasing in a HUGE way. I remember my high school band director getting the trumpet section to take turns playing a difficult part and then asked the band why one guy sounded better than the rest. We didn't know. The director then told us "he's in a choir too." End of story. Good singing ability typically translates to a natural airiness and "shape" (dynamic, etc.) to your phrasing that makes you sound better.

Also, in terms of getting pitches right (fretless anyone?), I can speak from experience that the whole "hearing the note in your head before you play" approach is completely necessary for playing brass (french horn for me), especially as you expand your range.

Now, I just need to learn how to sing on pitch...

Just my $0.02 though!
Cam

Just had a breakthrough in doing this today.

"Sing what I play" has always been on my list of "I really oughta do that" stuff, but I never really made it happen.
Today listening to the subdudes I just heard something that made me start scatting, and I rushed in from the car (when I got home) and picked up the bass and started playing it, and then just playing along as I sang.

It was freakin' cool.

Now to keep doing it. Funny how my fingers want to just take over and play "what they know". Keeping it real, singing it first, is kinda tough for me.
But I can see some good places that this can go to.

Just had a breakthrough in doing this today.

"Sing what I play" has always been on my list of "I really oughta do that" stuff, but I never really made it happen.
Today listening to the subdudes I just heard something that made me start scatting, and I rushed in from the car (when I got home) and picked up the bass and started playing it, and then just playing along as I sang.

It was freakin' cool.

Now to keep doing it. Funny how my fingers want to just take over and play "what they know". Keeping it real, singing it first, is kinda tough for me.
But I can see some good places that this can go to.

Doing what you did is a great start. Sing a bass line or solo line and then grab your bass and figure it out. Then analyze the line to see the notes involved. like b7, root, b3, etc. That start the process of relating ear, to mind, sing, to hand. Singing what you play eventually becomes playing anything you can sing, that becomes playing anything you can hear in your head.

There are websites posted many time to help work on hearing intervals and chord, but what your doing is a great practical start.

Then analyze the line to see the notes involved. like b7, root, b3, etc. That start the process of relating ear, to mind, sing, to hand.

Yeah, I left that out. This one was interesting because it started on the 5th, and went between major and minor pentatonic. Very definitely, figuring out "what" it is, is as important as figuring out how it goes... let's you apply the ideas in other ways.