I can read music, i know my scales, intervals, my ear aint perfect...but it gets the job done. But i cant for the life of me lay down a line that will groove at all. I try spontaneously making a groove, i try combining other artists grooves to make my own, i try making a groove to songs that dont have bass lines, i try locking in with my drummers bass or maybe his snare, but whenever i try to groove it just turns to crap.
Ive been listening to stanley clarke alot lately and trying to work out his grooves and hoping that i would gain an understanding better that way but so far it hasent really helped my actual grooving.

So please help me, reccomend a book, a cd, an exercise, whatever, i dont care. Just some help would be appreciated, THanks!

http://www.amazon.com/Bass-Grooves-Develop-Groove-Style/dp/0879307773

Hey jaaboy,

It's great to hear that you are frustrated with your playing! If you weren't frustrated, you wouldnt be trying to improve & make yourself better.

I know it sounds cliche, but I'd suggest starting with walking jazz lines. Rhythmically, they are quite simple (they are only quarter notes!), but once you have these, everything else can be built on these (IMO of course). The Jamey Aebersold tapes are pretty good for playing along with (so are drum machines, Boss jamstations, etc.). These helped me a LOT. Trying to make 4 notes REALLY interesting is harder than it seems!

Personally, I found that playing along with Motown or "oldies" music DRAMATICALLY helped my sense of groove. They're on the radio for free, and don't cost anything to download, etc. You can play with them, and try to copy the bass lines, and make your lines fit the music being played. Chances are, if you can make it fit, you'll be able to groove. If you mess up, wait until the next commercial break is over, and try again.

If these aren't your favorite styles of music, play something that is! I happen to like these styles, and have found that the mystical topic of "groove" can be learned relatively easily on these styles.

Don't force it - you don't run with every muscle in your body tensed, so don't try to play a bass line like that!

Perhaps your drummer is not able to groove & your point of reference is skewed!

imp.

I hate to sound like such a hippie but it's the kinda thing I personally think you have to work out for yourself.

I couldn't play what I refer to as "Bass" for ages, despite being a massive fan of Chilis and a couple of other funk rock/metal affairs, I could however play what I call "Bass guitar" (to some extent) playing rocky stuff, which I think has a bit off a different feel to it. After broadening my music taste, and playing with different musicians and stuff, I gradually learned the more rhythmic approach to Bass as an instrument and started to get into it alot more.

I'm only just starting to get the hang of it, and I'm still learning alot about minimalist playing too so I can broaden my playing further. Just try to listen to as varied amount of music as you can handle, and try to jam along to songs. Don't just try and play what the bass player is playing, try make up your own stuff too.

It can get a little weird with 2 bass lines, but it's how I got to grips with more technical punk bass, and I started to develop a bit of my own style. Just keep at it and try not to think about what notes your gonna play, developing this kinda style is alot more about the rhythm then anything, if you can stand the slight monotony try stick to a couple of notes, helps you learn to lock in with the bass drum and snare.

Like the guy said above you might not be the problem, that's not to say that the drummer is a problem, but perhaps he isn't very good at groove based music and needs to practise that too!

Great advice all round. I know Jeff Berlin would disagree but do you work with a metronome at all? If you can make that click feel good then you are on the way for sure. Set on all 4 beats, then 2 and 4, then 1 and 3, then a single beat in the bar. It may well be that you are fine and your drummers metre is not but I do believe if you can groove around a very strict metronome mark that will improve your groove. I do know I have gigs where it feel that things are not clicking and more often than not someone on the stage is not listening and locking in with the band.

One thing I've been doing to improve my groove is distilling the part down to it's basic and most essential 'strong' beats. There's a video tutorial on Bassplayer.tv where Chris Squier's line to "Roundabout" is broken down and demystified. (I know... it's not "Jamerson" groove, but the simplification factor is demonstrated very well).

I cannot recall the dude's name and bassplayer.tv is blocked where I am currently... BUT - there's a point where he tells you to only pay attention to the strong notes in the riff. Suddenly that seemingly super-complicated line was not so scary... The idea is that if you get comfortable nailing those strong beats to the floor, all the little ghost notes, pickups, and other things start to fall into place pretty naturally.

Further - when all else fails, nailing down the strong beats will hold a song together 10 times better than struggling with the little pieces in between. So when you find yourself feeling like you are just missing the groove - like you are always in too soon or late - force yourself to only play the strong notes and do that for a long time until you can land those strong beats in your sleep.

I noticed my technique change when I came away from trying to play all the notes and focused on the big ones. Down-strokes became up, leading with the index finger switched to the middle, I started using my thumb like Sting at times, and so on... But the bottom line was that the groove was getting clearly identified. When I felt really good about the big notes suddenly all the little details started happening almost without trying.

Apple Garageband drum loops got me back into playing bass, no pressure, perfect rhythm, no nerves, just you a machine and your bass...

Before I knew about them I thought I couldn't write bass lines cause they all sounded bland and boring, but I realized once I started using drum loops that the rhythm tells you what notes to play...

Put a drum loop on and listen to it for a 30 seconds or a minute close your eyes start tapping your foot, get really in it, start hearing a bass line without playing one, then start putting notes into the air with to that rhythm, taking you best guess at the intervals (it helps if you decide on a scale before hand so that you have an idea of where to move your fingers). The important part (for me at least) is not to think about it at all beyond this point, just keep playing and trying to make the notes and the rhythm feel right, try to bringing them around to what you hear in your mind or just abandon what you heard in your head and work with what you are hearing now.

It just seems to happen at that point, sometimes I get crap and then I try something different or put on another loop and try again, sometimes I just fire something out that sounds awesome without thinking, then I hit record and save it to listen to later :D

....now if only I could do it with a guitarist too :rollno:

Ps. Another "trick" I found is taking a line you like and know inside out and working on with the notes from that line. For instance I discovered this with tools Schism. Its similar to just picking a scale but at least this way you have some out of scale tones to spice stuff up and you have an idea of how someone else used the notes your working with.

Put a drum loop on and listen to it for a 30 seconds or a minute close your eyes start tapping your foot, get really in it, start hearing a bass line without playing one, then start putting notes into the air with to that rhythm,

If you're right handed, tap your left foot, but make sure you're tapping along with the click and not the rhythm of the groove you're playing.

Look into Tony Oppenheim's 'Slap It' book, as his examples innocently demonstrate catching and playing on the 'off beats' or developing syncopation.

This book is a must have amongst bass players and should be included in every sale of a bass.

Whether you slap or not, it helps you focus on playing on the 'sweet spots' in a measure.

I like most of the suggestions already made. Another tip I have is that, although it's impossible to define exactly what makes a groove in every case, quite often repetition is a key element. You could play anything, really, and if you repeat it consistently enough, it will start to sound like a groove that someone else could lock into. 2 bar patterns often work best. Resist the temptation to quickly abandon your ideas, and just try repeating. You can then try adding some variations in the 2nd bar, but try keeping that first bar consistent.

You can't hold no groove if you ain't got no pocket! - Victor Wooten


Bassandbeyond said it: Repetition !
Start playing some 12 bar blues

Apple Garageband drum loops got me back into playing bass, no pressure, perfect rhythm, no nerves, just you a machine and your bass...

Before I knew about them I thought I couldn't write bass lines cause they all sounded bland and boring, but I realized once I started using drum loops that the rhythm tells you what notes to play...

Put a drum loop on and listen to it for a 30 seconds or a minute close your eyes start tapping your foot, get really in it, start hearing a bass line without playing one, then start putting notes into the air with to that rhythm, taking you best guess at the intervals (it helps if you decide on a scale before hand so that you have an idea of where to move your fingers). The important part (for me at least) is not to think about it at all beyond this point, just keep playing and trying to make the notes and the rhythm feel right, try to bringing them around to what you hear in your mind or just abandon what you heard in your head and work with what you are hearing now.

It just seems to happen at that point, sometimes I get crap and then I try something different or put on another loop and try again, sometimes I just fire something out that sounds awesome without thinking, then I hit record and save it to listen to later :D

....now if only I could do it with a guitarist too :rollno:

Ps. Another "trick" I found is taking a line you like and know inside out and working on with the notes from that line. For instance I discovered this with tools Schism. Its similar to just picking a scale but at least this way you have some out of scale tones to spice stuff up and you have an idea of how someone else used the notes your working with.


I totally agree with this. GET A DRUM MACHINE! The machine doesnt get tired and doesnt have to go to work tomorrow. Its ready when you are, never drops outta time and doesnt mind playing the same thing until youre ready. Sometimes I just stop playing, and listen to the beat until I hum something over it. THen, play it. I use the Alesis SR-16.
Once you get your confidence in writing the groove, youll be asking your drummer to throw his best at ya.

Groovin' comes with confidence and confidence comes with practice. THat should be on a shirt!

Can't groove? Take up the lead guitar :)








Just kidding. All of the above is great advice. Honestly, to really nail the groove, simplify your lines and try to lock in with a really good drummer. Try a dotted quarter/8th note pattern and really make it lock, try straight quarters and straight 8th notes. Get it grooving while it's simple and add notes from there (or not).

Gotta do two things. First listen and absorb simple grooves and then learn to groove to the click of a metronome. If you can't hear feel groove to a click trying to groove to drummer or drum machine isn't going to happen.

Get James Brown's tune The Payback. After the intro its a simple two note groove. Listen to it, sing the bass line till you feel it. clap the rhythm till its yours. Then get your bass and just play the rhythm on the root till your in the pocket. Now do both notes. Now work on it with the metronome, get to where you hear a click and in your head and body your feelin' a groove. A drum machine is just going to mask things at this point, you gotta have it in you.

Groove is internal, if you can't sing it, clap it, do it to a click with feel you won't be able play with a feel. Learn a bunch of tunes with simple grooves. James Brown and Parliament are great place to start. Stanley Clarke and similar are too busy to be messing with at this point. As the GREAT Funk drummer Bernard Purdie said its all about playing that quarter note.

Look into Tony Oppenheim's 'Slap It' book, as his examples innocently demonstrate catching and playing on the 'off beats' or developing syncopation.

This book is a must have amongst bass players and should be included in every sale of a bass.

Whether you slap or not, it helps you focus on playing on the 'sweet spots' in a measure.

+1

I use slap it

I also highly recommend it! the sample tracks it comes with are useful in a great many ways

wow, thanks guys, i didnt expect to get this kind of response. I will definitely start doing some of this stuff like tonight.
thanks alot

What is a groove? Maybe that is the question you need to answer first. IMHO a groove is something that makes your head bob, feet tap and booty move. You feel a groove more than play it. A bass line that grooves does not have to be virtuoso Stanley or Jaco type stuff. You can root whack and make it groove. How you whack the roots is the important thing :) Check out Bootsy with James Brown or Bernard Edwards with Chic. Those are not complicated bass lines at all, but they groove like nobody’s business. Here is another question for you. Have you ever seen anyone dance or involuntarily head bob or foot tap to Jaco or Stanley? Or do they stare in awe with their mouths open? IMHO a groove makes you move ;) If they aint movin, you aint groovin :)

It really helps to take lessons from a bass player that really knows how to groove (these are not easy to find). I really sympathize with people posting here that have trouble getting that groove inside them. It's hard to learn because:

1) What is grooving? Ask 10 people get 10 different answers.

2) How do you learn to groove? Again, ask 10 people get 10 different answers. (keep in mind each of those 10 people is giving you advice on 10 different concepts of grooving)

In lieu of a groove teacher, the best things you can do to figure this all out:

1) Find a drummer who fills your ears with funk and jam with them as much as possible.

2) Listen to some seriously groovy funk, 24/7. A lot of people will recommend stuff like The Meters, Herbie Hancock, James Brown, Tower of Power, Funkadelic, Jaco.. That's all good. Check out some more modern crazy stuff like MMW, Galactic, Greyboy Allstars (http://www.greyboyallstars.com/videos.php?p=130), Jojo Mayer's Nerve, and The Screaming Headless Torsos. The goal here is to blow your mind. Keep listening through stuff until you find something that makes YOU say "OMFG THATS FUNKY!" Then put that on repeat forever.

3) Get Anthony Vitti's Fingerfunk Workbook volume 1 + 2. Good exercises with playalong CD.

Find a teacher!! Even if you can't study with one on a regular basis a couple of lessons should help a ton.

To get into the groove you've got to relax: if you're onstage tense worrying about not grooving, no way you're going to get into the groove. Go with the flow, try to internally hear the basic rhytm of the song, work closely with the drummer (that doesn't necessarily mean just following the kick drum, listen to the whole kit).

Have you ever seen anyone dance or involuntarily head bob or foot tap to Jaco or Stanley? Or do they stare in awe with their mouths open? IMHO a groove makes you move ;) If they aint movin, you aint groovin :)

+1 best thing I've read on TB today. I admire the skill and chops of cats like Jaco and Stanley but I have never felt drawn to emulate them. I can groove simple lines like nobody's business and for me, that is playing bass.:bassist:

Drums make the feet move. Bass makes the hips move. Think sexy. Think dancing sexy. Use that attitude when you do the exercises decribed above.

+1 on getting the drum machine, or finding some good drum tracks somewhere.

Also, make sure you start as simple as possible. Take one note and only play that note to the drum beats. Play it in any rhythm that comes to mind but only stick to that one note, making it groove. Once you can get a good groovin' rhythm on a single note, then you're ready to move onto more.

Look into Tony Oppenheim's 'Slap It' book, as his examples innocently demonstrate catching and playing on the 'off beats' or developing syncopation.

fountain boy,

Thank you (and everyone else here) for your recommendation(s) of Slap It!.

I've never heard Slap It! described that way before.

Here I thought I was being all sneaky with those off beats, but I like your take on it better. :)

Cheers!

Tony

Kool and the Gang, "Celebration - The Best of Kool and the Gang 1979-1987" ..

(ITMS)

Simple notes grooving, listen, copy, get a drum machine, develop simple grooves with KATG in the back of your head, and you'll get goin in a cpl of hours... that's what it's all about.

;)

D.Don

I think you are putting too much thought into playing, don't think in scales or theory, listen to the music, hear a bassline in your head then play it. Don't put too much thought into it, just let yourself go. grooving is more about the rythm than the melody you are playing, once you find a nice simple groove you can then try to improve it using your musical knowledge.

Transcribe a lot of music that makes you dance or tap your foot.

Also, http://www.bassplayer.com/article/seeking-elusive-groove/jul-06/21984

I have the same problem, and when I don't think about scales&stuff, the things I play sounds horrible. When I DO think about scales&stuff, I began soloing, not grooving. I can't keep a bass line simple and groovy, and when I'm playing on songs, I realize that I am using the "root note - 5th - the octave" pattern too much, even in different ways and with bunch of ghost notes. I don't understand, Stuart Zender does that a lot too but it sounds damn groovy. Maybe I don't have enough self confidence, but as a result, I became obsessed with my playing and I often think that I suck at bass. Any suggestions?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=M_2m-4e4tyA

Check that out, that's not a lot of note's but damn it's groovy stuff!

D.Don

I had a chat with my music teacher about this sort of thing and what he said was really helpful.


For a bassist, a lot (read: all) of the time groove is to do with rhythm. So what he had me do was play a realllllllly simple and sparse 2 bar line. Then, he had me try to offset whatever I played in he second bar by a 16th note everytime. Suddenly I noticed all these funky syncopations starting to happen, and it really helped my playing!

I know that explanation isn't very good, but if you need any clarification; feel free to PM me.

don't try so hard, just feel it, start with short few note or even one note riffs and try to make them interesting using rhythm and flow. Don't let you're notes ring for ever to start with and play fewer notes in the time. Stops help add to groove alot. Also in swing rhythm groove is easier to find. I have never had a problem feeling a song, so I don't know if that will help but its the best i can do.

fountain boy,

Thank you (and everyone else here) for your recommendation(s) of Slap It!.

I've never heard Slap It! described that way before.

Here I thought I was being all sneaky with those off beats, but I like your take on it better. :)

Cheers!

Tony

I'M HONORED THAT YOU WOULD EVEN RECOGNIZE ME!

You have some major cosigns on the back of your book (Ricky Minor and many others)

I shed to 'Slap It' almost everyday of my life and will continue to, into the foreseeable future, that's how much misconception your book has cleared up for me and my faulty ears & hands.

Thank you Mr. Oppenhiem. (I have collected close to 20 bass publications/theory books and 'Slap It' trumphs them all)

First you have too hear the bass line you want too play in your head, and hopefully translate it too bass. It's like learning another language almost, and changing in too bass language.

First you have too hear the bass line you want too play in your head, and hopefully translate it too bass. It's like learning another language almost, and changing in too bass language.

Another thing I have noticed is that when you start by just glue your line to the kick, and practice it until it's really REALLY tight, you start to feel where you can cut in apart from with with the kick, let the line evolve with one or two notes, nice and slow, try it out, and if it doesn't work just go back and start again from the "glued to kick" position.

;)

D.Don

I can read music, i know my scales, intervals, my ear aint perfect...but it gets the job done. But i cant for the life of me lay down a line that will groove at all. I try spontaneously making a groove, i try combining other artists grooves to make my own, i try making a groove to songs that dont have bass lines, i try locking in with my drummers bass or maybe his snare, but whenever i try to groove it just turns to crap.
Ive been listening to stanley clarke alot lately and trying to work out his grooves and hoping that i would gain an understanding better that way but so far it hasent really helped my actual grooving.

So please help me, reccomend a book, a cd, an exercise, whatever, i dont care. Just some help would be appreciated, THanks!

Practice with one of these and I promise you you'll be the king of groove in no time flat.

Peterson Bodybeat (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015YROUE/104-9865343-1389515?ie=UTF8&tag=r5un7ejl-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B0015YROUE)

It's a metronome that uses a vibration (like a cell phone or a video game controller) to send a pulse directly into your body. Using one of these you'll internalize the beat much faster than playing with an audible click. I have one. It's killer. Especially the dotted eight + sixteenth / sixteenth plus dotted eight patterns.

Practice with it every day until you can recall the groove without it and your bandmates will think you've sold your soul to the devil.

drink
alot
while you're playing

I do a lot of what's already mentioned - especially playing with a drum machine or playing along with records.

I also try one-note rhythm playing, where I don't worry about walking up and down the board, and instead try to play more complex rhythms on just one note, then I advance to two. I'll take some riff I've heard before (often a guitar riff, actually) and play it on the bass on one note, then another one note, and pretty soon, I'm connecting them.

It's really really hard to learn bass grooves from reading music, I think (for some reason) because there's so much more to it than just the rhythm.

Anyway, I needed all these suggestions too - thanks, all.

It's really really hard to learn bass grooves from reading music, I think (for some reason) because there's so much more to it than just the rhythm.

It's because reading music is an intellectual thing. Grooves are not.

Grooves are as natural as walking - the left/right/left/right of your footsteps forming a simple 2/4 groove. What you need to do is begin to feel the spaces between the beats.

When you practice with a click, practice playing directly between the clicks.

one AND two AND three AND four AND.

This is the subtlety you're probably missing.

Try to feel the space between the notes. Space is what opens up the song and makes it groove. I find it helps to pay attention to what the snare drum is doing as well as the kick. Try to create a space exactly where the snare drum hits.

Great advice all round. I know Jeff Berlin would disagree but do you work with a metronome at all? If you can make that click feel good then you are on the way for sure. Set on all 4 beats, then 2 and 4, then 1 and 3, then a single beat in the bar. It may well be that you are fine and your drummers metre is not but I do believe if you can groove around a very strict metronome mark that will improve your groove. I do know I have gigs where it feel that things are not clicking and more often than not someone on the stage is not listening and locking in with the band.



Being that I am now a drummer and part time bass player I will say IMO this is the best advice. Some people say the "real beat" is on the two and 4 of the measure..when the drummer usually hits the snare in most modern rock and blues applications. Between those snare hits the drummer and band usually drags the pocket a bit, giving that groove feeling. Of course I am trying to out this in technical terms. If you concenrtrate on the two and four and be groovey in between this is the essence of groove 101. A drum machine does not groove, it plays like a robot. A nome just on the 2 and 4, and 1 and 3 will allow you to drag the pocket. Just my .02.

I hate to say it, but .. I guess the only thing you can do is practise .. practise, practise, practise ...

Good luck though! :)

Groovin' comes with confidence and confidence comes with practice. THat should be on a shirt!

True-er words where never spoken...I had major issues with this to the point where I gave up playing for a long time, believing I was destined to do covers and nothing more. Both my playing and my social life was suffering from lack of confidence (I had no rhythm, no feel, I was looking for some math equation to tell me what to play instead of feeling it, and nothing I did had any heart). I was trying really hard but all that thinking was making me cold and removed in bass and in life.

When I began to overcome this (due to some huge changes in my life) I instantly understood groove, and dancing for that matter (I never used to dance, now I can't help it if I have a few too many), even women...It the same reason women are attracted to musicians to begin with... CONFIDENCE.

You know what sounds good and what doesn't you just gotta learn to trust your ears. If you have been playing for awhile and you listen to a lot of music than you know what to play already, you just have put it on the line and not give a *&%, its all sunshine and ice creme from there.

easy. play the beginning intro lick (the chords)of school days till it sounds exactly like stanley. took me a month. play nothing else till u get it, and can tap your foot to the beat and not miss any beats. you will have no choice but to groove. johnny a

Get into a country band (seriously) & play THAT for a few months.

It will establish a feel & groove foundation for you. Believe it or not.

Doing S. Clarke stuff will just confuse you IMHO. Play Like Stanley AFTER you understand what the hell the groove is.

Great stuff! This thread rocks! -grooves?-