My friend thinks that if he just doodles around on his bass every day he will get good. When i say doodle i mean he just plays what he wants without chords and scales just messes around you know He just plays for fun and thinks he will become good.I keep telling him to try to actually learn chords or take lessons but he thinks he can become good by himself is this possible?I play Guitar but i know you cant just learn any instrument by not actually practicing chords or scales.

Music comes from the soul, not from books.

So what does that mean? are you saying its possible for him to be a good bass player without books or learning even one chord?

yes it is very possible

i never took lessons or read music and i'm great. if your friend is serious about playing bass he'll get good one way or another just let him figure it out.

I don't practice scales either,and iv'e never taken lessons.I would like to have learnt all that stuff as it would of made things easier for me now.I don't think it's something you have to do but it would definately help.

Sure it is possible, but it's a big risk that he:

...learns bad technique that might be hazardous and hard to get rid of
...won't learn anything that helps him communicate with other musicians (the names of the keys, chords, note names, scales, modes etc.)
...learn things 100 times slower than he would with a teacher, and run into walls regularly
...won't practice with a metronome and build up a good timing

I learned bass by myself when I was around 23 (2001). I had been playing guitar for 6-7 years, including a couple of years with lessons with a jazz guitarist, so I had a quite good understanding in theory (I also studied music when I was in my early teens, so I got my share of classical music theory). In 2005, I had my first four (and so far only) bass lessons, and they were extremely helpful to me. My playing improved almost overnight... :) I only regret I didn't take those lessons earlier.

Yea i guess he could but i mean he doesnt want to learn anything but im sure he can get good with just doodling around.:hyper:

I taught myself just by learning songs and jamming with a drummer...

Absolutely no way.
I have a friend that does the same with guitar....
...over the last 5 years....

I have become a complite retard becose of scales..

I don't think he's stupid. There are tons of self taught musicians out there absolutely killing it with technique and style. I want to be familiar with my instrument, but I don't want to become that guy that just plays scales.

Example: When I got serious about learning the finer points of scales and chords on guitar, my creative juices evaporated. Instead of writing songs, I would pick the guitar up and play scales. The more I focused on getting the rudiments down, the less fun I had as a musician.

This is just my story, YMMV of course.

I've been taking classical double bass lessons for almost 10 years and I majored in it in college. I have been playing electric bass for almost 9 years, without a single lesson, and I am just as good on both if not better on electric. However, I also have extensive training in theory, ear training, counterpoint, and sight reading, and I know what good technique is, as I have been taught on the upright. I left college after I had completed all of my requirements minus several meaningless courses, and I realized that I could be focusing all of my time to both upright and electric bass instead of wasting it on things I don't care about. As long as you have a solid foundation of theory, tone, technique, taste, and a GREAT ear, you can't go wrong. No teacher or book can make that happen for you. Just my two cents....

There's no "one size fits all" method of learning an instrument, IMHO. My mother, a retired piano teacher, turned out some fine pianists with her London College of Music hardcore methods, but that approach failed on me.

For predominant left-brainers, I suppose the technical path holds more appeal. The rest of us want to have fun whilst progressing. :)

Oh yes he can, and he will. If he really enjoys he's doodling, that is. It will get him far beyond what any music theory system can offer. Plus, there's just 12 notes to fiddle with and all the time in the world to invent his technique to make the sound on his bass. Might take him a while though LOL

It's not really a matter of being self taught. Being self taught doesn't mean aimless doodling or lack of theory though.

I think what your friend is doing is probably wasting him a lot of time because eventually he might want to go and play in a band or with other people. Unless he learns some context of theory, even if that means just learning songs and getting ideas from them in that sense, he will find out fast that he has no idea how to play with other people or how to understand or communicate ideas with them.

The things that make you good in a technical sense come from etudal exercises that are based on scales and arpeggios and so on.

I don't know about creativity evaporating by learning scales and theory, I think that is a myth personally. What happens is that people generally learn that they weren't really doing anything special in the first place more than anything.

To me the old "I'll just play by feel and be great" is code for people thinking that they are going to be great musicians despite the fact that they really aren't interested in music enough to put any real effort into it. What they really want is the glory without the work that goes into being a real musician.

Think about Jimmy Hendrickx if talking about musicians without any formal training ...

Think about Jimmy Hendrickx if talking about musicians without any formal training ...

Also Jimmy Page, Dave Matthews, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Carlos Santana, BB King, etc, etc.

Of course Jimi Hendrix practiced incessantly, even carrying his guitar into the bathroom.

There's no shame in knowing what you're doing. That's all theory is - not a rule book, but a reference work. Knowing theory doesn't exclude you from playing what you hear, it can tell you what to listen for. It'll be so much harder for your friend to 'get good' without knowing anything about what he's doing. But it's his own choice...if he's got an extra 10 years of waiting to spare - be my guest.

If a guy who noodles (what I think you meant to say :) ), and loves it, and plays the bass 5 hours a day because he's having so much fun and does it for a year - gets compared to a guy who's up to Mel Bays book 2, practiced scales and chords, and put an hour into it a day cuz it wasn't much fun... who do you think would be the better player at the end of the year.

as long as he puts goals in front of him and actually exercises, he'll get better.
but noodling is not very helpful.

I'm self taught and have been playing over 30 years. I don't know any scales at all and have never practiced any scales. The only thing I ever play when practicing alone are my own bass lines - a bit like the guy from the original post.

I think the pros for being self taught are that you can develop your own style and it never feels like "learning". However, I am no good at jamming because I don't understand scales (although I don't see it as a big problem - I just listen to what the guitarist is playing, create a bass line in my head and work out how to play it).

One problem I have is bad technique so I would advise your friend to alway practice amped up whenever possible. I practiced for many years unamped - just me and my bass. The result is that I hit the strings way too hard and find it difficult to control an amped up bass. I only now after 30 years have learned to relax and just stroke the strings and my sound has vastly improved as has my playing

If a guy who noodles (what I think you meant to say :) ), and loves it, and plays the bass 5 hours a day because he's having so much fun and does it for a year - gets compared to a guy who's up to Mel Bays book 2, practiced scales and chords, and put an hour into it a day cuz it wasn't much fun... who do you think would be the better player at the end of the year.

who do you think is still playing after the first year? heh. the one who has fun with it is the one who's gonna develop a passion for it.

that's how i started. if had to sit down and learn lessons along someone else's planned curriculum, i doubt i'd still be playing. i ended up learning theory, but i researched it on my own and taught it to myself.

Also Jimmy Page, Dave Matthews, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Carlos Santana, BB King, etc, etc.

Of course Jimi Hendrix practiced incessantly, even carrying his guitar into the bathroom.

It's not about formal education but those guys obviously know at least SOME theory. Unless all they do is doodle around and their songs all magically turn out to be I-IV-V blues songs.

who do you think is still playing after the first year? heh. the one who has fun with it is the one who's gonna develop a passion for it.

that's how i started. if had to sit down and learn lessons along someone else's planned curriculum, i doubt i'd still be playing. i ended up learning theory, but i researched it on my own and taught it to myself.

exactly, I stopped playing bass for a year or so because I wasn't having fun, and then, when I started playing on my own and when I wanted, I was having fun

and now I'm taking lessons again, so full circle

It's not about formal education but those guys obviously know at least SOME theory. Unless all they do is doodle around and their songs all magically turn out to be I-IV-V blues songs.

Hey, I never said that musical theory should be ignored. I simply posted the names of some self-taught musicians. And it's "noodle" around. Doodling is to sketch, lol.

too many people up here hung up on 'all play no theory' and 'all theory no play'.

Life is a complete mess when you rely on extremes, which is where a lot of this conversation is heading.

Edit: here is something shared with me about where much of this fits in...

Step 1) Gather all your tools (scales, theory...) and knowledge together

Step 2) Be able to recall all of this material instantly and near perfectly

Step 3) Forget everything and just play!

I don't think he's stupid. There are tons of self taught musicians out there absolutely killing it with technique and style. I want to be familiar with my instrument, but I don't want to become that guy that just plays scales.

Example: When I got serious about learning the finer points of scales and chords on guitar, my creative juices evaporated. Instead of writing songs, I would pick the guitar up and play scales. The more I focused on getting the rudiments down, the less fun I had as a musician.

This is just my story, YMMV of course.

There is a little truth to this for everyone. When you learn music theory, you tend to see things a little more mathematically and less abstract. However, for someone who just hears the music in their head, it becomes easier to find exactly how you want to play something. YMMV.

I just 'noodled' and jammed for like the first 3-4 years of playing, I had lessons but I spent 90% of my time noodling. Now I'm a semi professional bassist and am studying music at uni which I was accepted onto unconditionally after my audition.

I would definitely recommend to take lessons and learn about music. It's the safest, fastest and easiest way to progress.

These days, I think formal training is important.
It depends however on what you want to do.
Formal training can certainly open doors.
I am glad I was trained "formally" and grateful for opportunities to use the training and become a musician ...work in progress.

I think, with the right background in music you can most definitely learn yourself without a teacher, I had already been in band so i already knew the notes and everything, just a matter of applying what i knew to bass, I got a book to teach me the scales and stuff and im taking it from there.

Music comes from the soul, not from books.

true that

Another thing to note.

Certain genres can be played with little to no knowledge of theory.

Certain genres ABSOLUTELY can not be done without a fair bit of technical knowledge. that may be opinion if there is a lot of good rebuttal, but I am pretty sure its fact.

If a person is self taught, they will eventually learn what they need to know to become a competant bass player, but it will take a while. With lessons, there's a person 3 feet away from you that can clear up any confusion and correct things like bad technique. This speeds things up quickly.

Although not in the OP, but still alluded to in this thread: If your goal is to jam with your friends and maybe play some covers in a bar, you could probably get away with knowing pentatonic major and pentatonic minor and be on your way. If you want to actually say something and be original on the instrument or do something outside the realm of rock covers (getting called for gigs) you're going to have to put some time in and learn some theory (through lessons or otherwise).

Are The Beatles ,Steely Dan and John Coltrane considered lesser artists because they knew their theory? Even someone like Hendrix was playing 7th and sus chords. He may not have been able to verbally describe what he was playing, but because he PRACTICED so much, he had developed his ear to a point where he could execute the ideas in his head.

And seriously, other than 1980s shred guitarists, who just goes up and down scales when they play?

When I was but a small child? I bowled. I loved bowling. My dad was demon bowler, He couldn't miss a pin if he threw the ball from the parking lot. I thought that was so cool to watch so I picked it up. My way. Repeat...My Way. I was having the time of my little life, slamming a light ball down the alley and knocking the crappers outta them pins. Then someone told me "Kid?You're doing it all wrong"...So I respected the knowledge being espoused upon me and failed at learning the "Correct Way" I loved bowling, was getting pretty good at it,Till I "read the book" Take from this what you will. Nothing wrong with sharing the knowledge, just don't let it obscure your own talent. There is Wrong and there is Different. Learn which is what. I'm done now,carry on.

Can go either way. It depends on your friend. If really is enjoying himslf, that's a good thing. If he doesn't progress, that's bad.

Music, like any form of art, can be approached/created in three different ways. Let's say I'm a poet. I decide to write poems. I could:

a) Write them without reading any poetry. Learning literary theory would choke my creativity.
b) Write them after extensively researching/studying poetry at school and getting my PhD.
c) Do a mix of a and b, wich is probably the approach most people take towards creation. It is also, in my mind, the best trade-off between a and b since you'll get the tools while honing your craft and not getting hung-up and theory.

BG is not cello or violin in that you do not absolutely need a teacher to get to a great level of mastery of the instrument. But the important thing is to have goals. I'm probably the doodliest, noodliest player around, but when I do so, I make also sure to work on new rythmn patterns, melodies, chord changes/subs, that can sound interesting when I'm writing originals.

I also work regularly on the basics: good timing, scales, playing in every key, to make sure I play my role as a bass player. The thing I don't do a lot is learn songs. I'll transcribe parts, dissect them and figure out why they sound good, but as far as nailing them perfect (what a lot of people call practicing a song for a gig) I do that maybe 5% of the time.

LOL sorry i never heard of noodling but i heard of doodling but thanks for all the replies.

Is this one of those stories where your friend turns out to be you?

He's heard music on the radio - those are his lessons. Now he's using his knowledge (mostly ear memory) to be creative on bass. There are more direct ways that are faster, but eventually he'll find the 4th 5th and 6th intervals that dominate the radio.

Of course Jimi Hendrix practiced incessantly, even carrying his guitar into the bathroom.

Jimi also did god awful amounts of LSD, and sounded like it...everyone seems to forget that part.

Life is a balance folks little from column A lil from B.

I play scales and learn other peoples songs until my fingers and my brain refuse and I start digressing into random hammer on pulls offs and slides to nowhere when I should be playing a scale...Then I put on a drum loop and noodle, it extends my practice session and brings new life to it. Its also good to try and apply the scale you are working on to a bassline...otherwise whats the point?

"...he just plays what he wants without chords and scales just messes around..." seems to me to have nothing to do with setting goals, listening to how things go together, playing with other people, creating music, etc.

That's foolishness, and it's NOT the same as being self-taught. If he were sitting down and copping bass lines from many sources, or writing real songs, jamming with other people, etc. then he could get good. But just sitting around waving his fingers with an instrument in his hands and he's wanking, pure and simple.

Thing is, we here on TB don't know the details of what he's doing, do we?

jte

If someone practices noodling (or doodling) all day long, then after several years of doing so he or she will be really good at noodling.

I don't get very many jobs based on my ability to noodle. Maybe some people do.

Maybe you can become a brilliant soloist without learning any theory...
...but to be a decent accompanist you absolutely need to know your chords and scales.
And bass is generally an ensemble rhythm instrument.

Older players know that the purpose of knowing theory is NOT to hamper your ear , or force your soul into a cage.
The point of learning theory is efficient communication with other musicians.
No wasting time playing the song over and over until the doodlers "get it" , just hand them a chord chart.

Players who know theory will generally pick up new material faster and be able to fake it with more confidence than those who don't.

If he wants to try to be the next atonal super bass wanker, he's on the right track.
If he wants to get a gig in a working band, He's shooting himself in the foot by not learning this stuff.

He can do it his way, but unless he is a natural musical savant,
it will take much longer for him to develop the musical awareness that good bass playing requires.

IMHOYMMVetc

I read a lot of theory & stuff when I was first learning, but I definitely developed my own style because I didn't study with a teacher. I still consider my knowledge of theory to be a bit spotty - at least compared to the music school nerds. I was always aware of the 5th and its sound, but when I discovered the sweetness of the major 3rd, it was like a revelation. I couldn't get enough of it. I spent a lot of time, basically running scales way up on the neck & doing all these beautiful things, but not playing a real bassists role, and eventually I toned down my style and fit a more traditional role, but with the ability to step out. Sort of like John Paul Jones, who could hold it down with the best of them, but then come out with these beautiful lines like in Ramble On.

I wouldn't give that up for the world. I'm glad I learned on my own & in my own way, and I continue to do so.

Currently I'm reading Jean Philippe Rameau's "Treatise on Harmony," written in 1720 and after this I may read Helmholtz's "On the Perception of Sound" or Jeppeson's book on the counterpoint of Palestrina. The way they thought of & taught music then v. how it's taught now (I'd studied Hindenmith with a teacher for a while) is fascinating. I prefer the way it was taught then & I may write a brief book to fill in the missing parts of knowledge that just isn't taught that much today.

The idea with learning ANYTHING is to utilize the knowledge of the people that have come before you. Sure, we can list a bunch of folks who are self taught & that's great. If we know what those folks are doing in terms of theory or scales, you'll be able to play similarly faster. In the field of engineering, we don't have to try everything randomly - we can build bridges, cars, oil refineries, etc. because we learn the theory of those who come before us.

About your friend, it depends on what HIS objectives are. If he has a bass solely for the purpose of noodling, then he sounds like he's making that happen. If HE wants to be a grade-A musician, then merely noodling around will take significantly longer time than studying theory. A knowledge of theory helps to minimize the amount of time you have to spend trying things out & that added connection can be a significant advantage when playing professionally.

You can't force your buddy to learn scales & theory, though, unless you want to start the Florida17's Scale & Theory Band. It has to be something he would like to do on his own.

imp.

I'm self taught and have been playing over 30 years. I don't know any scales at all and have never practiced any scales. The only thing I ever play when practicing alone are my own bass lines - a bit like the guy from the original post.

I think the pros for being self taught are that you can develop your own style and it never feels like "learning". However, I am no good at jamming because I don't understand scales (although I don't see it as a big problem - I just listen to what the guitarist is playing, create a bass line in my head and work out how to play it).

One problem I have is bad technique so I would advise your friend to alway practice amped up whenever possible. I practiced for many years unamped - just me and my bass. The result is that I hit the strings way too hard and find it difficult to control an amped up bass. I only now after 30 years have learned to relax and just stroke the strings and my sound has vastly improved as has my playing

This post says it all. It's all good if that's what your personal goals are, but you even admit that you are no good at jamming and you have bad technique, even after 30 years. If you are satisfied with that, that is fair enough but those are limitations that people that do learn about theory and apply it to technical application don't have.

I think that the term "self taught" is being misused here though. Self teaching doesn't mean lack of learning, it just means self directed learning. People can teach themselves as much as they are capable of and want to learn. Frank Zappa is one good example of how being self taught is no limitation on anything. There are plenty of others too.

Nah its not those stories I play guitar.

I think learning scales and chords has made me a worse player in general :(
My mind is now so rigid, it is hard to think outside of the box.


And about reading...if I can hum it I can play it. I don't need to read. Unless you want to be a pro session player who just plays what is on the page and has never listened to the song (because if you did listen to the song you would be able to play it by ear and not need the music ;) ) then reading is over rated. Its like making all the members of the house learn latin.
Jonathan

it varies from person to person. i tought myself without formal lessons or much of a plan for that matter(granted i used scales and chords) but some people just take to music more naturally and quicker than others.

Jimi also did god awful amounts of LSD

Conclusion: Your friend need to take LSD and he will become an ace bass player..

;)

(I am self tought on both keys and guitar, no books, no school, no teacher, and have been playing professionally (keys) for some years during my life).

D.Don

Jimi also did god awful amounts of LSD, and sounded like it...everyone seems to forget that part.I'm sorry - I don't understand the point you want to make here.

Otherwise I enjoyed your post and agree learning to play comes from many aspects.
I also agree that without linking scales into a musical application, like making up songs, you aren't hearing the character each has to offer.

Having a good teacher is a tremendous help for learning technique and bouncing ideas off of.

I used spend a lot of time practicing scales and arpeggios and took lots of lessons and was schooled in classical theory. Didn't hurt me any.
I just liked music so much I wanted to know how it worked. But one doesn't *have* to have schooling to learn to play well.
I don't really practice a lot of scales any more, but I still study theory.

I took lessons, and learn the shapes for Major scales and chromatic Scales, yet i don't practise them as much as i should. I focus on different basslines and try and create groovy basslines. Btw, i know the fretboard reasonably well, but i think i need to put some more time into the G string.

Do you think that i should put more time into Scales and worry about groovy lines a bit less?

Neither Theory, nor soul will get you anywhere bass playing wise. The only way to improve is to catch lots of mice with your hands and eat them. Pigeons work too.

:hiding:

Bottom line in long run you have to learn the same things where you study using the traditional way, by ear, or just noodling around. The difference is how long it will take you. The traditional way teaches using a common language of music, the things people discovered over years of what is necessary in a basic order to learn things in. Traditional also tried to related the pieces to each other. Some one learning by ear is generally following a similar process, but they have to make their own names and terms for things, discover things on their own over time where a book would of told them learn this now. So they learn it all with a lot of hard work that take more time and brings some commutation problems with other musicians since they don't know the common language. So over time they do learn the common language our a necessity to work. Last your friend the lazy noodler. They may one day decide to get serious and become one of the two types above. Otherwise they will eventually learn a handful of tunes, jam on those tunes, and if they still like to play thirty years later still be playing that same handful of tunes. What they like is they always have an excuse for screwing up, they will get to play because they usually are the one who buys the beer. Sometimes they are honest and don't try to say they want to be a player they just want to know enough to hang out with musicians and sit-in on the tunes they know.

Structured learning is not necessarily the best way to introduce an instrument (well it ca be for some people) but eventually some kind of structured learning (even if just a short stint) will help him.

It may be better for some people to learn to play by ear before they can read music, because reading music and just playing notes may sap your creativity. However using your ear only may keep you from the tool that will be able to expand yopur possibilities of what to play (theory.)

The traditional way teaches using a common language of music, the things people discovered over years of what is necessary in a basic order to learn things in. Traditional also tried to related the pieces to each other. Some one learning by ear is generally following a similar process, but they have to make their own names and terms for things, discover things on their own over time where a book would of told them learn this now. So they learn it all with a lot of hard work that take more time and brings some commutation problems with other musicians since they don't know the common language. So over time they do learn the common language our a necessity to work. Last your friend the lazy noodler. They may one day decide to get serious and become one of the two types above. Otherwise they will eventually learn a handful of tunes, jam on those tunes, and if they still like to play thirty years later still be playing that same handful of tunes. What they like is they always have an excuse for screwing up, they will get to play because they usually are the one who buys the beer. Sometimes they are honest and don't try to say they want to be a player they just want to know enough to hang out with musicians and sit-in on the tunes they know.

I disagree that they learn the same things as the people who study. They learn different stuff from the people who study - different things are emphasized, rules that some hold as sacred they'll break and so forth. I've always found the music of untrained musicians who know almost no theory to be much more interesting than the music of trained musicians... even if I can't always play along with them easily because we simply speak different musical languages.

I love that there's a common language & a base of common knowledge. I hate that 99.99% of the time it's taught as a series of arbitrary rules without any of the WHY or the context of the discoveries.

Ok so I want to drive to Clevland. So I just strike out, no map or particular plan. Just drive. Eventually I will arrive, just no telling when. With a lot of luck, persistence and maybe an inate ability to travel in the right direction. I will make it! :eyebrow:

I reckon if I had a map and a plan I could achieve my goal much sooner and more efficiently. But then I would have to admit that I used tools to help me, and didn't just do it on my own.:hmm:

As long as he's in key with the band.

The most important thing is to have soul.

When I practice I just sit and jam with the music in my head as long as I want.
And that's working very good for me

I've been playing bass for like 6 or 7 years now. No lessons, I can't read music, I don't know any scales although I've been half assed learning here and there. I started out learning some songs from bands that I liked. I'd find tabs online or whatever and just play along until my hands felt like fire.

The first band I was in was a hardcore/metal band. I've never had problems communicating with other band members. Although our way of telling each other what to play wasn't "proper" it worked. Someone would make a part, play it slow for everyone else until it stuck. Then we'd start trying it at the right speed. If they where playing a wrong note in the riff or whatever you'd say something like, "no play a 6 on the A string". It may not be proper but it gets the job done. I played with my fingers where most bands of the style use picks. I used chords here and there in that band which is not something common for a bass player in that genre to do. I always got compliments for it though. But I also knew enough to know not to over use chords and I've always understood that sometimes "less is more".

I'm currently not playing bass in a band, but I do sing (scream/yell) for one. We all take part in writing pretty much. It's been mostly our one guitarist but the past couple songs started with riffs I made and another recent song started with a riff our drummer wrote. For the past few years now, a large chunk of the music I listen to is hardcore/punk/noise type stuff (Converge, Botch, Coalesce). Lots of dirty heavy music. We play stuff that's fairly close to that. I can't make those kind of songs on bass though. Maybe a part here and there but most of the time when I have some part in my head, I go to a guitar to work it out because I can hear it clearer on a guitar than bass. When I'm writing something I just start to work out the riff I hear in my head, change notes in it and all that stuff and change the rhythm of it until I think it sounds good. I take into consideration my bands existing songs so I don't make something that sounds like something we already have. Then I bring it to practice, and if they like it I then show them how to play the part, or song.

I still use chords when I'm just screwing around. I couldn't tell you what the chords are named, but I could tell you to form them by playing for example A8, D7, and G9 or playing A12, D14, G16 etc...I just figured out what chords sound good to me and what doesn't. I can make stuff like Tool songs that are played on the D and G strings, and I can also turn on Ol' Dirty Bastard the Third (ODB3), crank the gain and pummel my eardrums with some sludgy hardcore riff. I play mostly with a pick now and I think I have great control. I only play hard when I need to. I can play with my fingers fairly well, I can do slap pretty good. I can do a few two hand tap things but nothing spectacular. All without a single lesson. Whenever I want to learn something new, I can usually find it online. For the music I make, I know everything I need to know so I'm happy with that.

Like someone else said, some genres you will be set just being self taught, some genres depend on knowledge of theory and scales and all that stuff. Your friend should figure out what he might want to do on bass, learn some songs that are in that style. I think that's a pretty damn good way to start.


There's my two cents anyways... well maybe more like a dollar. :hiding:

Ok so I want to drive to Clevland. So I just strike out, no map or particular plan. Just drive. Eventually I will arrive, just no telling when. With a lot of luck, persistence and maybe an inate ability to travel in the right direction. I will make it! :eyebrow:

I reckon if I had a map and a plan I could achieve my goal much sooner and more efficiently. But then I would have to admit that I used tools to help me, and didn't just do it on my own.:hmm:

What a horrible analogy. Music, of all things, is about the journey not the destination. I spent 2 moths backpacking around the country, which forced me to become spontaneous & self reliant. Ever since then, I simply can't do the plan-ahead thing when vacationing. It sickens me to stick to a pre-defined schedule and not experience things on my own, in my own way, in my own time.

One vacation I took with my girlfriend was "rent a car for 2 weeks and see what happens - I want to hit Philly and Boston and let's just see what happens." We discovered all sorts of charming little towns and amazing restaurants along the way. Yes, I had a map (I'm not stupid) but I had no plan beyond what I told you. I got discount coupons for hotels at rest stops and stayed at the best hotels for budget motel prices.

I went to New Orleans with my friends - didn't book a hotel in advance & ended up getting a better hotel (on Bourbon Street, with a pool) and the same price my friends paid for theirs halfway to the garden district with no pool, though I did spend half a day tracking it down.

You can take the guided tour of Europe with "2 hours free time before we meet back here for the night-time restaurant tour" or you can backpack around Europe for a month. Which of you experiences the REAL Europe? Sure one of you comes home with all sorts of interesting historical facts, but can you really possibly say that the guided tour version was more authentic & a more direct way to experience Europe?

If your friends intention is to become good on bass and a compitent musician, then yes he is stupid. Why? Because it is stupid to learn something the hard, more time consuming way when you can pick up a book or get a teacher and learn it in a shorter amount of time.

Learning an instrument with an instructor or book or learning scales and theory won't suck the fun out of learning unless he worried more about learning scales then what he can do with them in the context of a real song.

I would guess it's not that he's stupid but that he's just lazy and sees learning scales and some theory as buzzkilling homework.

P.S. this whole, "music comes from the heart/soul argument, not a book," is a bunch of rubbish. For one thing, yes music can come from a book. A player can play music from notation that he hasn't heard before.
There is nothing wrong with knowing what you are doing and why you are doing it. Knowing theory doesn't kill creativity. That's something guys say who were just too lazy to ever learn any. If you take two guys with a similar musical background, but one learns by ear and doodleing and the other one takes lessons or picks up a book, the guy that takes lessons is going to always learn quicker. When I checkout bass players I can always tell who the, "by ear," guys are, they are usually the guys moving their postion all over the fretboard (when the song could be played from one position) and playing with one finger because they never even learned a couple of simple scale patterns.

You can take the guided tour of Europe with "2 hours free time before we meet back here for the night-time restaurant tour" or you can backpack around Europe for a month. Which of you experiences the REAL Europe? Sure one of you comes home with all sorts of interesting historical facts, but can you really possibly say that the guided tour version was more authentic & a more direct way to experience Europe?

Actually, this gets to the heart of my point.

Theory isn't music. Theory is a description of music. Learning theory is like learning how to read & write and learning the parts of speech. All great ways to learn language & learn the literature of the past, but not completely necessary to someone who simply enjoys talking. Someone could become a great persuader, a great speaker, a great rapper or singer without ever learning how to read or write, and I suspect as often as not, the watered down "roadmap" most people learn as music theory is helpful only in that it boxes them into something that's known to work so they make fewer mistakes on their own - but making fewer mistakes means making fewer discoveries and developing less of a distinctive style.

P.S. this whole, "music comes from the heart/soul argument, not a book," is a bunch of rubbish. For one thing, yes music can come from a book. A player can play music from notation that he hasn't heard before.
There is nothing wrong with knowing what you are doing and why you are doing it. Knowing theory doesn't kill creativity. That's something guys say who were just too lazy to ever learn any. If you take two guys with a similar musical background, but one learns by ear and doodleing and the other one takes lessons or picks up a book, the guy that takes lessons is going to always learn quicker. When I checkout bass players I can always tell who the, "by ear," guys are, they are usually the guys moving their postion all over the fretboard (when the song could be played from one position) and playing with one finger because they never even learned a couple of simple scale patterns.

I agree that knowing theory doesn't kill creativity - but I disagree that the "by ear" guys are the ones that are doing things in a necessarily bad way. I don't know any "by ear" bass players, but I know a lot of "by ear" guitar players and I always find that their stuff is much more interesting than the learned guys stuff because it does stuff I don't expect it to do.

What a horrible analogy. Music, of all things, is about the journey not the destination. I spent 2 moths backpacking around the country, which forced me to become spontaneous & self reliant. Ever since then, I simply can't do the plan-ahead thing when vacationing. It sickens me to stick to a pre-defined schedule and not experience things on my own, in my own way, in my own time.

One vacation I took with my girlfriend was "rent a car for 2 weeks and see what happens - I want to hit Philly and Boston and let's just see what happens." We discovered all sorts of charming little towns and amazing restaurants along the way. Yes, I had a map (I'm not stupid) but I had no plan beyond what I told you. I got discount coupons for hotels at rest stops and stayed at the best hotels for budget motel prices.

I went to New Orleans with my friends - didn't book a hotel in advance & ended up getting a better hotel (on Bourbon Street, with a pool) and the same price my friends paid for theirs halfway to the garden district with no pool, though I did spend half a day tracking it down.

You can take the guided tour of Europe with "2 hours free time before we meet back here for the night-time restaurant tour" or you can backpack around Europe for a month. Which of you experiences the REAL Europe? Sure one of you comes home with all sorts of interesting historical facts, but can you really possibly say that the guided tour version was more authentic & a more direct way to experience Europe?


Actually I think his analogy was dead on and yours was horrible. Strictly speaking, if you were to learn theory and scales when learning bass you would get the, "more authentic and direct way to experience music," as you are actually learning music and understanding why something works and not just thumping notes on a bass until you find the ones that sound right with the song you are trying to play.

But let's say that you don't use a map but you found a place that is heaven on earth on your way there. You wouldn't have found it if you had a map. So was it worth it?

Ok so I want to drive to Clevland. So I just strike out, no map or particular plan. Just drive. Eventually I will arrive, just no telling when. With a lot of luck, persistence and maybe an inate ability to travel in the right direction. I will make it! :eyebrow:

I reckon if I had a map and a plan I could achieve my goal much sooner and more efficiently. But then I would have to admit that I used tools to help me, and didn't just do it on my own.:hmm:

Actually I think his analogy was dead on and yours was horrible. Strictly speaking, if you were to learn theory and scales when learning bass you would get the, "more authentic and direct way to experience music," as you are actually learning music and understanding why something works and not just thumping notes on a bass until you find the ones that sound right with the song you are trying to play.

I totally disagree.

First, I contend that 99% of music theory that's being taught today is crap. Scales & chords are spoon fed to people without any real understanding of why they work. I'm sure this varies from book to book or teacher to teacher, so I can't speak for everyone, but if you talk to people that know a handful of theory - not the ones that can pontificate about the purpose of a cdim7 like you get here, but the ones who know scales and modes out the wazoo, you find they really don't have the kind of fundamental understanding that you'd hope theory would impart on them.

Second, while I'm primarily talking about guitarists, the ones that don't learn theory either develop into musical midgets that can only play a handful of chords and are still flailing about after 8 years (your example) or musical prodigies that do all sorts of insane runs whose basis the people who learn theory would have a hard time putting together (my example). This is probably less the case for bass players because of the support role that we play, it does help if you can at least communicate with the other musicians in the band in a meaningful way.

Now, I'd say that the odds are skewed towards people who don't learn theory becoming musical midgets (your example), but that doesn't mean that all people who don't learn theory are going to become idiots that can't play worth a damn after a decade on the instrument. Some of them, through persistence or talent actually become good & they play in a very different way from the people who learn theory.

But let's say that you don't use a map but you found a place that is heaven on earth on your way there. You wouldn't have found it if you had a map. So was it worth it?

Now, you are just talking in vauge analogies. Both types of players are going to get there, how you arrive their won't really make the place any better once you are there. The guy with the map is always going to spend less time getting there though.

I've only been playing bass about 4 years now. My first two years I learned some scales and theory and songs. Most people that heard my band, even other bands, assumed I'd been playing bass much longer. If I tried to learn by ear I'd be no where near the skill level I have now.

Basically there is no CORRECT way to learn to play an instrument... unless you have a specific end-goal in mind. If you want to play for the symphony or a type of music that is very structured, then you best learn your theory and how to read. If you want to play totally experimental noise, then noodling is perfectly fine. There are a million places in between. If you want to be in a TYPICAL rock band you don't necessarily need to know theory, but there are dfinitely rock bands where you DO (Dream Theater, Rush, any fusion etc.) One thing is for sure, unless you are playing only for yourself by yourself then you better either develop a strong ear and a good way to communicate with musicians, or learn theory and reading. You will have to rely on one or the other to work with other people. It is probably best to have atleast a little of both though. Ear playing can open up your creativity but with more mistakes/discoveries. Theory and reading music can build up your creativity by allowing you to study what others have done, and also will let you know of possibilities you might not have found by ear. It is also a generalization but somewhat true... If you have a good ear you can follow other musicians easier, and if you know your theory you can lead easier (but there definitely are exceptions to both.) If you are decent at both, it's better exponentially rather than additionally.

How is this vague? I can't prove it because you can't go back in time, but if you could do that, I would make a strong bet that there would be certain things that you would have learned playing by ear that you did not learn by theory. I can't list the things because it would be experiential. Let's just say that you wouldn't play the same way and it can't be quantified. Let's just say that learning theory makes you alot more predictable, and probably less apt to go outside the box. This is mere conjecture, but honestly, so is what you say.

Now, you are just talking in vauge analogies. Both types of players are going to get there, how you arrive their won't really make the place any better once you are there. The guy with the map is always going to spend less time getting there though.

I've only been playing bass about 4 years now. My first two years I learned some scales and theory and songs. Most people that heard my band, even other bands, assumed I'd been playing bass much longer. If I tried to learn by ear I'd be no where near the skill level I have now.

I totally disagree.

First, I contend that 99% of music theory that's being taught today is crap. Scales & chords are spoon fed to people without any real understanding of why they work. I'm sure this varies from book to book or teacher to teacher, so I can't speak for everyone, but if you talk to people that know a handful of theory - not the ones that can pontificate about the purpose of a cdim7 like you get here, but the ones who know scales and modes out the wazoo, you find they really don't have the kind of fundamental understanding that you'd hope theory would impart on them.

Second, while I'm primarily talking about guitarists, the ones that don't learn theory either develop into musical midgets that can only play a handful of chords and are still flailing about after 8 years (your example) or musical prodigies that do all sorts of insane runs whose basis the people who learn theory would have a hard time putting together (my example). This is probably less the case for bass players because of the support role that we play, it does help if you can at least communicate with the other musicians in the band in a meaningful way.

Now, I'd say that the odds are skewed towards people who don't learn theory becoming musical midgets (your example), but that doesn't mean that all people who don't learn theory are going to become idiots that can't play worth a damn after a decade on the instrument. Some of them, through persistence or talent actually become good & they play in a very different way from the people who learn theory.

I'm not argueing that players who learn by ear turn into musical midgets or that they turn into prodigies. What I'm saying is it is simple fact that a player will become a better player quicker by getting some instruction, or picking up a book and learning even just a bit of theory.

Again why learn anything the hard way? Doodleing and figuring everything out yourself is the hard, more time consuming way.

Also, it's been my experience with guitar players that the more theory they know the better they are not only technically but on a creative level as their stuff sound more coherant and isn't just a rewrite of their favorite bands guitar riffs.

I've played with A LOT of guitar players. The ones that don't know any theory are more often than not a very big pain in the ass to work with, even when I'm not playing bass, because they don't know how to communicate what they are doing and don't know how to make up a riff to someone elses original content without hacking at it, "be ear," for an hour. A guitar player that at least knows a little theory can be told, "o ya this parts in A minor." I don't have to tell them all the notes I'm playing or fret number if they are really bad and don't even know notes on their fretboard. Not saying everyone should be or even needs to be a theory expert, but a little goes a long way.

Now, you are just talking in vauge analogies. Both types of players are going to get there, how you arrive their won't really make the place any better once you are there. The guy with the map is always going to spend less time getting there though.

I've only been playing bass about 4 years now. My first two years I learned some scales and theory and songs. Most people that heard my band, even other bands, assumed I'd been playing bass much longer. If I tried to learn by ear I'd be no where near the skill level I have now.

That's great. When I was playing for 4 years I was also saved by music theory and eventually created my own style within theory.

But I've also played with some very talented musicians who barely knew any theory & I see no reason to foist theory on people who don't need/want to learn it - just because you and I benefited from it doesn't mean everyone should be forced to learn it.

Again why learn anything the hard way? Doodleing and figuring everything out yourself is the hard, more time consuming way.

Also, it's been my experience with guitar players that the more theory they know the better they are not only technically but on a creative level as their stuff sound more coherant and isn't just a rewrite of their favorite bands guitar riffs.

I've played with A LOT of guitar players. The ones that don't know any theory are more often than not a very big pain in the ass to work with, even when I'm not playing bass, because they don't know how to communicate what they are doing and don't know how to make up a riff to someone elses original content without hacking at it, "be ear," for an hour. A guitar player that at least knows a little theory can be told, "o ya this parts in A minor." I don't have to tell them all the notes I'm playing or fret number if they are really bad and don't even know notes on their fretboard. Not saying everyone should be or even needs to be a theory expert, but a little goes a long way.

1. Kanoodling isn't necessarily the long way. This person could have a naturally good ear.

2. The guitar players I know fall into one of 3 camps:

a) know theory - great to work with, can sometimes get too technical, but can always communicate what's going on

b) don't know theory - great to work with, their stuff always sounds like music & is pretty simple since they don't know complex chords or blazing guitar leads. these people also tend to be singers & just have a natural ear for the stuff.

c) don't know theory - horrible to work with. these guitarists don't sing typically & and can be all over the map technically, especially if they're not used to working with other musicians, but do some incredibly interesting stuff that I would never think of in a million years.

I'm not arguing against learning theory by any means, I'm arguing against thinking theory is the only/best way for everybody.

How is this vague? I can't prove it because you can't go back in time, but if you could do that, I would make a strong bet that there would be certain things that you would have learned playing by ear that you did not learn by theory. I can't list the things because it would be experiential. Let's just say that you wouldn't play the same way and it can't be quantified. Let's just say that learning theory makes you alot more predictable, and probably less apt to go outside the box. This is mere conjecture, but honestly, so is what you say.

Theory only makes you predictable or stale if you use it as hard barrier that you refuse to go out of. I knew couple of guitarists like this. One is a teacher he can play every style of music on the guitar spectacularly. His original music, very boring, when he jams out it sounds like he's just going through a catalouge of things he can play.

As far as predictable and bass.....unless you are some solo shredder/lead bass guy, I don't think I've ever heard a bass line that wasn't on some level predictable.

What I say isn't conjecture.. all I'm saying isthat someone with a teacher or instruction is going to become skilled quicker than someone who just doodles by ear. Learning theory doesn't black out learning by ear, if anything it enhances your ear.

My friend thinks that if he just doodles around on his bass every day he will get good. When i say doodle i mean he just plays what he wants without chords and scales just messes around you know He just plays for fun and thinks he will become good.I keep telling him to try to actually learn chords or take lessons but he thinks he can become good by himself is this possible?I play Guitar but i know you cant just learn any instrument by not actually practicing chords or scales.

Can your friend get good this way? IMO, no. Now if he were jamming with as many people as possible and learning to "doodle" in a group setting then, yes absolutely he could get very good.

No one has to sit and learn scales, modes and arpeggios with a metronome to be a good bass player. I firmly believe that it helps, but there are a lot of different things you can do to improve yourself that isn't as structured. Learning songs by ear and/or playing along with CDs, playing with other musicians (I think this is crucial for development), writing your own songs (which I tell every young musician to do as early as possible), even just playing with effects for fun can all help you become a better bas player.

As for the "playing comes from the heart, not a book" or "untrained musicians make more interesting music" comments, they remind me of my drummer. He's a great drummer, but it seems what he really wants to be is a bass player. But he insists that he doesn't want to learn theory because it will inhibit his creativity. Of course, what he knows about theory at this point is the whole steps and half steps that make up a major scale without knowing any fingering patterns.

Nevertheless, during every break he picks up my bass and plays around, though when I pick up the guitar and our guitarist plays drums, he struggles to play in key. Also, during the rest of the week writes Victor Wooten "inspired" bass lines that are (1) overly complex (2) often atonal and (3) lack a groove.

Insisting that theory inhibits creativity is ridiculous. As my guitarist frequently says, "once you know the rules, you can understand how to break them" in interesting ways. I can see scales and theory being limiting to someone who isn't well versed because they get locked in one boxy pattern or something, but to me, theory and scales should be relate to music the same way grammar relates to writing.

I don't consciously think about subjects, predicates, gerunds, prepositional phrases or any of the technical aspects of grammar when I'm writing, but those rules still make me a better writer, the same way my underlying knowledge of theory makes me a better bass player, even when I'm knowingly breaking those rules to make something interesting in the same way a writer breaks grammatical law to make a passage stand out.

That's how I see it anyway.

But really it depends on what your end goal is if you have one. I agree that a little theroy goes a long way, but I think we might disagree about WHEN and HOW MUCH you learn that theory. What if it's later rather than earlier... or how about never. Or how about before you even pick up a bass. They are all valid approaches. How about note names on the fretboard or 7 part modal harmony... both valid.

I personally actually want to know what modes go over what chords, because though I have a decent ear I want to see what the other possibilities are. However I can easily say that there are probably plenty of ear musicians out there who are way better with their ear compared to my best day, and may not need theory.

I would argue that for most people it would be much easier to be boxed into theory if they start it earlier rather than later. I have my own style but now I want to open it up more.

Phil Keaggy is known for being an incredible player (Eric Clapton said that he was the best guitarist he knew of sometime in the 70s) but he knows no theory. Certain Jazz musicians don't know theory. I remember hearing a story about a VERY famous horn player who was invited to play with a bunch of other famous instruementalists and they were fairly shocked that he didn't know theory. So they communicated to him by telling him that certain things they were going to do were like certain sections of songs he knew. He was lost until they did that, then he blew them away afterwards.

I like to be truly open-minded. Nobody has to do anything a certain way, because nobody has to have the same goal as someone else. This doesn't necessarily apply to everything but if applies to anything it would be music.

On another note the best guitarist Ive ever played with didn't know theory. His lines in a rock context were quite a bit more unique than others I have worked with. I believe George Lynch who played with Dokken didn't know theory but he grew up playing guitar and mimicking sound he heard on cartoons and commercials. He is one of my favorite shredder type people. Another of my favorite guitarists is from a band that you never heard of probably... And Prickett from the prayer chain. For a rock guitarist he is a bit out there. I don't know if he knows theory but probably. I wish I knew his story.

So can we agree that:

- having a teacher early on brings you up to competency faster than not having one

- those who learn theory *can* *sometimes* be limited by it

- there are those who don't know theory that are very interesting players - however rare.

Therefore: Theory is great, it's there to describe what works & what doesn't, but in doing so, can also be limiting because the childish "grammar" most musicians learn at first doesn't describe well enough the great pieces that are out there & potentially within us.

Can your friend get good this way? IMO, no.


Hard to say without knowing his friend. If this were 1927 and his friend Sir Duke, I wouldn't dare suggest he tell his friend to resume piano lessons and get theory down or he'll be a failure.

Everyone is different. Some people have a much better ear than others. Some people can discover amazing things through experimentation. Without knowing the OP's friend, we haven't a clue.

Music is a world within itself
With a language we all understand
With an equal opportunity
For all to sing, dance and clap their hands
But just because a record has a groove
Dont make it in the groove
But you can tell right away at letter a
When the people start to move

Hard to say without knowing his friend. If this were 1927 and his friend Sir Duke, I wouldn't dare suggest he tell his friend to resume piano lessons and get theory down or he'll be a failure.

Everyone is different. Some people have a much better ear than others. Some people can discover amazing things through experimentation. Without knowing the OP's friend, we haven't a clue.

Amen.

I'd also like to add that, in general, the answer to "Is my friend stupid?" is "Yes, yes your friend is stupid" regardless of the context.

Just like Mark's General Rule of Your (non-musical) Friend's Friend's Band: Your friend's friend's band always sucks. Especially if your friend is the girlfriend of one of the guys in the band.

I think the most important thing is that someone critcizes his playing otherwise he may not know were he is going wrong.

People with no training in music yet are great musicians (or even good, for that matter) are by far the exceptions and not the rule. The vast majority of musicians who noodle around and reject learning usually end up sticking their instruments under their bed until they sell them. Is it possible to be a great musician without getting some training? Sure. But not bloody likely, and if it happens, it's all because of innate talent.

The vast majority of musicians who noodle around and reject learning usually end up sticking their instruments under their bed until they sell them.


What is the source of your statistics?

I had bass lessons in highschool and, I remember only some of it (that was ions ago :eek:)

I also took a couple of music theory classes in college recently. The music theory helps to understand how songs and music parts are constructed, but it does little to help with the physical aspects of playing the bass.

Noodling on the bass for 2-5 hours per day does a lot to build right hand and left hand coordination. It also is a good way to become familiar with the fretboard both for developing musical phrases and tone.

He can always take lessons and learn theory later, when he feels that he is ready to do so. Because, unless he is really ready to learn those things, it wont do him much good.

What is the source of your statistics?
Life experience. How many great musicians do you know in your personal life who haven't had any formal training at all? I can count the ones I know on one hand.

Skimmed through the new pages of posts here. Some comments:

I don't know a single self-taught musician that is as good and versatile a musician as the professional musicians I know. If you only do your own thing all the time, skills you've obtained by doodling around might be enough, but if you want to get hired as a musician for someone else's project or band, you're not going to reach far with those skills.

Sounding good is a different thing from being a good overall musician. You can be an amateur and in some cases sound as good as a pro with 100 times more experience than you, but you won't be as versatile a musician, and likely not as creative either.

Don't let theory be a limiting factor, instead use it to communicate and to explain phenomenons in the music. Let your ears tell you what's good and what's not. There's mostly a theoretical way to explain why something strange sound good, although you might not know the reason.

I've never understood how notes on a piece of paper can be music. It becomes music when you play it, and whether it sounds good or not depends on how you interpret it. This is where "putting soul into the music" comes in. It's the artistic thing, that is harder to teach and analyze than the strict technical skills. In the auditions to American Idol and similar shows, you always see some people that might sing perfectly in tune, but it sounds horrible because they lack the skills to put soul in it. It's how you interpret the song that makes it enjoyable or not to listen to.

Technique can be taught. Artistic skills are much harder, while not impossible, to teach. When people put "soul" into the music, it's the artistic skills that shines through. But to fully express what you want to say as artist, you need good technique. The best way to learn technique is with a good teacher, IME.

He's learning to play by ear.. IMHO a much better skill to have than knowing every scale...

If someone starts playing by ear, eventually one day, if he/she is interested enough, they will go tha path they like. I see a line here in all these "learning to play" threads, and there are so many of you who just have to mix up "earning money" into the picture. What if someone learns to play because it's fun, and don't give a **** about becoming Mr. Sessions Smooth and don't care about being hired at all, but instead just wants to play music and have a good time?

Then there's a chance they will become good creative players, without being aware of any theory etc. just by pure kicks out of the fun of playing, energy, pure clean joy, without a single thought about money....

To take a very "by the book" example, look att Jaco, he did not learn to read from the start, yet he has done more for the bass world than most of us ever will...

;)

D.Don

What is the source of your statistics?

"The way you know yourself..." etc. I would say.... hehe

;)

D.Don

If someone starts playing by ear, eventually one day, if he/she is interested enough, they will go tha path they like. I see a line here in all these "learning to play" threads, and there are so many of you who just have to mix up "earning money" into the picture. What if someone learns to play because it's fun, and don't give a **** about becoming Mr. Sessions Smooth and don't care about being hired at all, but instead just wants to play music and have a good time?

Then there's a chance they will become good creative players, without being aware of any theory etc. just by pure kicks out of the fun of playing, energy, pure clean joy, without a single thought about money....

To take a very "by the book" example, look att Jaco, he did not learn to read from the start, yet he has done more for the bass world than most of us ever will...

;)

D.Don

Reading isn't understanding theory and vica versa. Yeah it's all nice if you want to be a feel player but you pretty much have to accept the limitations that go with it and that is not necessarily a financial statement. It's a fallacy that people that play "by feel" have more creativity than people that understand theory on some level.

Theory is a source of conceptual development and creativity in itself. It gives a frame of reference for ideas so that they can be communicated and analysed. I would think that Jaco Pastorius would be the last person to think that you can do more with less knowledge.

Jaco was one of the most learned people to ever play an instrument. And while he did teach himself, he taught himself the right way and was extremely disciplined about it, to the point of practicing and studying every waking moment possible. Not a great example if you're trying to extoll the virtues of not learning theory.

Jaco was one of the most learned people to ever play an instrument. And while he did teach himself, he taught himself the right way and was extremely disciplined about it, to the point of practicing and studying every waking moment possible. Not a great example if you're trying to extoll the virtues of not learning theory.

Agreed.

It's kind of funny when people refer to people like Pastorius as being self taught, they are under the presumption that that meant he didn't really have a good understanding of theory. The truth is, as I said before that being self taught just means self guided learning, not a lack of knowledge.

What is the source of your statistics?

I'd like to see ANY statistics to the contrary.

Before anyone brings up Jimi, he was a very good player as a backup guy with curtis knight and such, and did a LITTLE about what he was doing, he never claimed he didn't know anything, just in the grand scehme of things, he knew what he knew and that was about it.

This is like the same argument for people who 100% have an original voice, its a very bold claim, in a pure sense I don't think its truly possible to not know jack about theory and be able to hang with a random good player and float. any instances where someone claims otherwise, I am making a claim that we would really have to analyze if this person a) can really float without much instruction and b) really has no training, even self training which I did a lot for myself.

To say that someone can 'jam' decent and not a single scale, personally, i think it goes back to how well we think they are jamming.

As for reading, I used to do it on trombone and tuba all the time, when I first picked up bass, I didn't read a single note for 10 or so years, and yes I did play some fairly complex stuff. However, just couldn't get the notes right for Teen Town, so what the hell, occassionally you gotta put some effort ;)

He's learning to play by ear.. IMHO a much better skill to have than knowing every scale...
Playing by ear is a great skill to have. But don't you think it's easier if you know the notes?

Playing by ear is a great skill to have. But don't you think it's easier if you know the notes?

to be fair, I don't necessarily see why playing by ear means you aren't getting the right notes. As I stated, Teen Town, yes you'll probbly miss some. 80% of popular music, no.

Jaco was one of the most learned people to ever play an instrument. And while he did teach himself, he taught himself the right way and was extremely disciplined about it, to the point of practicing and studying every waking moment possible. Not a great example if you're trying to extoll the virtues of not learning theory.

But he did not learn the theory from the start, that was my point.

If you pickup an instrument and find it's fun, the first thing you do, is not opening a tuition book and start to do the exercises, the first thing you do, is try to play it, and if you have a music ear, you just play...

THEN

when you have all the energy and curiosity needed to motivate yourself to move on, you might choose to pick up a tutor or/and a book or two and take it from there...

(As far as I have understood, Jaco did not know theory or reading from the start, he just played in a band and had to learn them songs to get around).

D.Don

to be fair, I don't necessarily see why playing by ear means you aren't getting the right notes. As I stated, Teen Town, yes you'll probbly miss some. 80% of popular music, no.
Wasn't my point. I'm saying that if you know the notes and scales and stuff, it does make it easier to use your ear. It doesn't mean you can't do it, but it definitely makes it easier.

Playing by ear is a great skill to have. But don't you think it's easier if you know the notes?

Reading AND playing by ear is a fantastic combo, but if you start playing, as the dude we talk about in this thread is doing, I can see the point with learning by ear, at this early stage.

D.Don

Lets just say this I've been playing for 8-9 years now took lessions for a year and I would say I'm not that great at bass but I'm trying and I know my way around the neck. But I see your local Joe Schmoe playing some crazy stuff after only 6 months of picking one up. Part of it has to do with the person, how much time they dedicate to practicing and what or how they practice. So I can understand what your friend is saying because I really only learned from one book and didn't really even get that far in chord progressions.

I don't think he's stupid. There are tons of self taught musicians out there absolutely killing it with technique and style. I want to be familiar with my instrument, but I don't want to become that guy that just plays scales.

Example: When I got serious about learning the finer points of scales and chords on guitar, my creative juices evaporated. Instead of writing songs, I would pick the guitar up and play scales. The more I focused on getting the rudiments down, the less fun I had as a musician.

This is just my story, YMMV of course.

Amen! Although this doesn't happen with all trained musicians... it would have with me! I'm not the kind of guy who can disect an art (music), study the different aspects of it, blah blah blah. To me that would be like trying to teach someone to make love, to have passion. I'm a scientist at my day job, so I can see the difference clearly between science and art. I've never, repeat NEVER played to a metronome. I've played with human drummers since day one, though...very lucky I know. I've never been without a band to play with, 'cause I play from my heart with emotions as my guide. For me, that's where it's at! :)

Wasn't my point. I'm saying that if you know the notes and scales and stuff, it does make it easier to use your ear. It doesn't mean you can't do it, but it definitely makes it easier.

I see.

You know, being familiar with what a flat seven versus a major seven sounds like, and a flat 3 versus a major 3, that REALLY does help in using your hear.

Sure it is possible, but it's a big risk that he:

...learns bad technique that might be hazardous and hard to get rid of
...won't learn anything that helps him communicate with other musicians (the names of the keys, chords, note names, scales, modes etc.)
...learn things 100 times slower than he would with a teacher, and run into walls regularly
...won't practice with a metronome and build up a good timing

.

+10

I've been playing for 20 years.( Where does the time go?) I have never had a lesson. Do I think I'm great? No. Do I still love playing after 20 years? You bet!! I do think it is important to learn the fret board notes as well as the basic blues scale. (See, I don't even know the proper name of the scale) For me, just playing in bands and watching the guitar players hand to recognize the chords. If he plays a G or a C etc. I also had to buy Rush's moving pictures 3 times on cassette because I kept wearing them out. Play, stop, rewind about a million times. Thank god for the invention of Compact disc. Learning this way will give you a great ear. What's right for some may not be right for others. If your friend enjoys what he's doing, isn't that all that really matters.

To answer this question with any kind of accuracy, I'd really have to know the person in question.

I learned bass (and guitar later) entirely by myself, first by noodling around, and eventually collecting stray bits of information that came my way until I had a working grasp of theory, which grew from there. There are wholes in my knowledge, but they are primarily issues of semantics. For example, I understand and know all my modes even if I forget their names, and I know a lot of concepts in practice that I can't necessarily properly explain in terms of hard theory. This is all stuff I'm working on. Every year I feel like my grasp of music solidifies substantially, and I'm proud of the fact that I did it all without a teacher and without a class.

So yes, I think it's entirely possible to get good without instruction, but you have to be motivated, and to an extent you have to be lucky. In my case, I was lucky to be surrounded by musicians who regularly talked about the science. I just listened quietly and absorbed as much as I could so I could take it home and mess around with it. I was lucky enough to care to learn what was happening with music, and lucky enough to get the information I got in a correct order and at a correct rate that allowed me to actually use it. Eventually I learned more still by playing along with other musicians and by trying and failing at a handful of things.

And you can say that I would have been better off with a teacher, but I'm not sure that's the case. Even though I think theory is a valuable tool, and proper technique is considered such for a good reason, I don't think I could have learned it unless by trying and failing, and doing things at my rate when I felt like doing it. It's just my personality. I'm too stubborn to let anyone tell me what my assumptions should be, regardless of their credentials. I need to try every possible bad idea first, and know for a fact that they don't work. And I actually think that the actual quality of my learning has some advantages because of it.

HOWEVER...

I have been blue in the face trying to get some self taught musicians I know to take their work seriously. Some people don't ever find motivation to learn the ins and outs of it, and if that's how it is, that's just how it is. And while he may learn some concepts informally that help him similarly to theory, he might never progress even to the level of a 3 month piano lesson veteran. There's no way to tell without actually knowing the guy.

One thing's for sure, though. If he doesn't find the motivation by himself to learn (either by really driving himself or by taking lessons), he's probably not going to. And you can't really do much about that. But also, if he's having fun, there's no reason you should mind. Music is serious business for some of us, but some of us just like to mess around, and that's cool too.

Well said Not Jason :hyper:

To those who have contributed thus far in the thread:

Have you ever played in a really good jazz combo where everyone really knows what they're doing? I mean, people who really have their stuff together - people that have actually studied that evil, evil theory.

At that point, there's a combination of listening skills and music knowledge that truly lets people communicate without talking.

When you have a group of people that have the knowledge to know not only what they're doing but what everyone else is doing and how to react to it, it's a beautiful thing and hard to describe. Once you've played with musicians who are well versed in theory, you might find yourself spoiled and frustrated when you have to spell everything out for people who are really, really good and noodling.

I've played in too many bands where we'll say something simple and fundamental like laying out the changes in a I-IV-V format and having the guitar player not have a clue as to what we're talking about. Then we have to take him by the hand, explain to him what we're doing, and show it to him step by step, and then being able to play. Stuff like that pisses me off. People need to learn to play their instrument, not wear it.

I never took lessons, but know basic theory.

I have picked up a book or two, however, and am learning more. I never read sheet music, but I'd like to be able to communicate better with other band members. However, it is definately possible to play without theory, as I've been playing in my current blues trio for quite some time without a problem.

For some people, I think that theory is a really good thing. I do know a couple people, though, that are really held back by their knowledge. They always follow the "rules" (for example, when playing in G, they'll only play 3rd fret 1st string and 5th fret 3rd string.) For those people, it would be more beneficial to just let it flow out a little bit, even if they don't know exactly what they're playing. As long as it sounds good.

It all depends on what you can do with your knowledge. If you can learn and use it creatively, great, but if you plan on sticking exactly to the "rules" you're better off not restricting yourself.

I do know a couple people, though, that are really held back by their knowledge. They always follow the "rules" (for example, when playing in G, they'll only play 3rd fret 1st string and 5th fret 3rd string.) For those people, it would be more beneficial to just let it flow out a little bit, even if they don't know exactly what they're playing. As long as it sounds good.

What you're describing is not someone is being "held back by the rules", it's someone that "doesn't know enough about the rules".

No one gets "held back" by learning music theory. No one will get "artistically impeded" by learning music theory. Jazz musicians, in my opinion, are the most soulful, musical, artistic musicians that you will find and they have to be absolute monsters when it comes to theory.

They don't get to be good at jazz by just "letting it flow", they get good by learning their **** backwards and forwards until they don't have to think about it - THEN they let it flow. They MASTER music theory to the point that they don't have to think.

Most people don't want to think in the first place, though. It's much easier.

From my limited time playing drums (months) and with my next step to get a bass guitar and learn that, here are a few things I've experienced:

Music is notation used for a set of instructions. How many people do you know that can fix an engine or build something, without ever reading instructions? They have a general idea of what they need (tools, parts) and how to put them together, and time after time they get the job done. For some of those poeple that is enough, for others they will eventually seek out reading material (or a teacher) to expand their knowledge further, filling in gaps, or putting names to things they already knew. They may want to meet others and need to learn to communicate those instructions. If they keep to themselves, whatever form of instructional understanding they have is enough for them to keep going, alone.

Others have to have instructions in front of them or they can't build or fix anything. As I've learned to read drum music, and I've pushed myself to take various new pieces and learn them, the drumming always comes out wooden and mechanical. I'm playing what's on paper but there's no 'soul' to it. Only after I infuse whatever talent I have, once I've understood the piece, does the music come to life. Once I understand what the piece 'should' sound like do I find the groove and get totally into the music.

Jamming with my friend has opened up a lot of avenues. We can do a 20 minute jam where I can play complex arrangements, but if I saw them on paper I'd be totally stumped. For those songs I go totally by feel and emotion. If he does a wild riff that moves me I look inward to what feels right on the drums. Listening to our latest jam CD I'm amazed at how well I found the right combination of patterns to compliment those changing riffs. But don't ask me to write that music down, I wouldn't know where to start.

In the end, if a person wants to end up in a studio or band and be able to communicate with his peers, it doesn't really matter if he played by ear for months. They'll soon realize where they are decifient (reading and understanding music) and will seek out how to fill in those gaps.

Agreed.

It's kind of funny when people refer to people like Pastorius as being self taught, they are under the presumption that that meant he didn't really have a good understanding of theory. The truth is, as I said before that being self taught just means self guided learning, not a lack of knowledge.

I thought Jaco was yet another in the long line of bassists who also played trumpet & he took his good trumpet playing ear, and fundamental understanding of the overtone series to bass, which is why he played all those harmonics. Jaco may or may not be self taught, but he certainly wasn't a guy who "doodled" on his bass without ever studying a single lick of theory.

If he's having fun, what does it matter?

Not everyone is in it to become a virtuso, some folks could care less about even becomeing passable.

In time he may get bored with noodleing, and come to seek things out higher training on his own. But if that day never comes, so what, just as long as he's having a good time.

I thought Jaco was yet another in the long line of bassists who also played trumpet & he took his good trumpet playing ear, and fundamental understanding of the overtone series to bass, which is why he played all those harmonics. Jaco may or may not be self taught, but he certainly wasn't a guy who "doodled" on his bass without ever studying a single lick of theory.

If we refer to the material where he self describes his early stages of bass playing (and this is what we are talking about, a guy just learning to play bass, see first post), of course the material that is available to the public (videos, books etc.) , Jaco says himself "I just picked up the bass and learned most of it by looking and listening, looking at what other people where playing on the bass, and listening to lots of different music and playing along with it"...


D.Don

I thought Jaco was yet another in the long line of bassists who also played trumpet & he took his good trumpet playing ear, and fundamental understanding of the overtone series to bass, which is why he played all those harmonics. Jaco may or may not be self taught, but he certainly wasn't a guy who "doodled" on his bass without ever studying a single lick of theory.

Jaco started as a drummer. You might be thinking of Flea?

If someone starts playing by ear, eventually one day, if he/she is interested enough, they will go tha path they like. I see a line here in all these "learning to play" threads, and there are so many of you who just have to mix up "earning money" into the picture. What if someone learns to play because it's fun, and don't give a **** about becoming Mr. Sessions Smooth and don't care about being hired at all, but instead just wants to play music and have a good time?


Most of the original projects I was in ended up COSTING me money and all so I could play in a crappy bar at 12 in the morning on a Tuesday. Being a working bass player is allowing me to take my wife on a vacation to New York this year.:hmm:

I also currently am working with a brilliant songwriter who is letting me write my own basslines to his songs and it is very rewarding.

By the way. Having a broad knowledge of theory has helped in both situations.

I'm somebody who has been playing for more than 40 years and has never had a lesson. What I did do, though, was learn songs from the radio, records, etc. That is far different than just sitting around noodling (which to me means playing pointlessly). I think lessons and education are the BEST way to go, you learn the right way. Could somebody be a competent self-taught neurosurgeon? Maybe, but I don't think I'd risk them operating on me.

Jaco started as a drummer. You might be thinking of Flea?

Strange. I know Flea was a trumpet player, but I thought for sure Jaco was too... I must be thinking of someone else.

I'm somebody who has been playing for more than 40 years and has never had a lesson. What I did do, though, was learn songs from the radio, records, etc. That is far different than just sitting around noodling (which to me means playing pointlessly). I think lessons and education are the BEST way to go, you learn the right way. Could somebody be a competent self-taught neurosurgeon? Maybe, but I don't think I'd risk them operating on me.

Theory is just a reverse-engineered dictionary, the same way a grammar book is reverse engineered from actual language. Saying that theory is the be-all, end-all bothers me in the same way people saying "That's not a real word because it's not in the dictionary" bothers me. People forget that language is a living thing & that dictionaries are static and are only pale imitations of the real thing.

Learning music theory is learning to conjugate verbs in a foreign language, playing good music with decent musicians is like having discourse in that language. They're very much related, but they're not the same thing.

Mind you - I'm a big proponent of learning theory. I'm just against the idea that it's the only way.

Theory is just a reverse-engineered dictionary, the same way a grammar book is reverse engineered from actual language. Saying that theory is the be-all, end-all bothers me in the same way people saying "That's not a real word because it's not in the dictionary" bothers me. People forget that language is a living thing & that dictionaries are static and are only pale imitations of the real thing.
.

actually, we are on a twelve note system, that is NOT the first music system ever, and yes there are some reasons why its twelve notes and the relation ships among them. this is a whole different topic, but unless you have a different instrument or play with ethnic instruments and ethnic music, your whole basis in music is actually pretty well thought out, NOT reverse engineered.

...learns bad technique that might be hazardous and hard to get rid of
...won't learn anything that helps him communicate with other musicians (the names of the keys, chords, note names, scales, modes etc.)
...learn things 100 times slower than he would with a teacher, and run into walls regularly
...won't practice with a metronome and build up a good timing

...Poor technique can be taught as well...
...I agree that there are some really dense people out there who won't know what you're talking about if you don't speak their language...
...This is a mater of motivation & tenacity. A person who plays without instruction for 2-3 hours a day vs. a person who only plays for an hour a week at his/her lesson...
...Another thing that can be learned by just playing...

Two other points:

1) Does it really matter? Really? If you figure out a scale on your own you're still self taught right? There was a time when there was no music theory, does that mean there were no musicians? If the alphabet disappeared would language stop?

2) Is anyone even reading this, or like me did you find something on the first page to respond to?:D

So what does that mean? are you saying its possible for him to be a good bass player without books or learning even one chord?

True story

I was a sophomore in high school. I had been playing electric bass for about a year. I have formal music training on piano, violin, upright bass and trombone. I know (and knew) how to sight read, improvise over chords and some basic music theory.

That said, I was still very green on electric bass. I wasn't super confident and played what I considered to be very typical, square, uninteresting solos that basically consisted of hitting the root and playing what basically amounted to random notes within the key.

Henry, on the other hand, was a smokin' bass player! He could slap like Stanley, solo like Jaco, but he couldn't read a single note or understand changes.

We both were auditioning for the jazz band. I went in, did my sight reading (adequately - nothing super impressive, but I hit the changes, played the unison parts, stayed in time - made it through). I did my weak-ass solo and played the other pieces that were required and were given out weeks before in the form of sheet music.

Henry was next. I stood outside the door waiting for the slaughter to begin but he didn't even get to start. Right off the bat, Mr. B said, "OK, Henry... Open the folder on the stand and play the first piece."

Henry said, "Mr. B. I can't read music."

Mr. B... "Next!"

I got the gig.

True story....

Never once have I told the gatekeeper to a gig that I was in jazz band.

Now I've read and responded to something not on the front page!:hiding:

Never once have I told the gatekeeper to a gig that I was in jazz band.

Now I've read and responded to something not on the front page!:hiding:

Huh? Not sure I follow...

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk View Post
Jimi also did god awful amounts of LSD, and sounded like it...everyone seems to forget that part.
I'm sorry - I don't understand the point you want to make here.


Just saying Jimi is such an extraordinary case, a rare convergence of talent, practice and a ton of psychedelics and it bothers me when people use him as an example for self taught greatness...To think he looked at music the same way as you or I (or anyone else on this planet) is a gross under sight.

actually, we are on a twelve note system, that is NOT the first music system ever, and yes there are some reasons why its twelve notes and the relation ships among them. this is a whole different topic, but unless you have a different instrument or play with ethnic instruments and ethnic music, your whole basis in music is actually pretty well thought out, NOT reverse engineered.

I'm not talking about equal temperment or the concept of major/minor, that's a completely different discussion. I'm talking about the kind of stuff you find when you study composition - no parallel 5ths, no doubled 3rds, plagal & perfect cadances, etc.

Rock musicians get the most dilute form of all. "V7 - I" with little understanding as to why a V7 - I works.

On the topic you're discussing - as you say there is a reasoning behind the 12 tone major/minor system and it's very flexible, and there are compromises that have been made. So why aren't musicians taught this stuff - why are they taught "a chord is 1, 3, 5" without the reasoning behind it?

Otherwise, I agree with you & it's an excellent point.

I say, if you are the guitarist, and you intend to be in a band with this fellow...I guess here is your chance to set some standards for your band as a whole. Right? If he doesn't play to your level, I guess he's out of the band, and free to self teach, alone, as much as he wants.

You can learn and know theory even if you don't actually study theory. I have learned a lot just from learning songs by ear or from tablature. Theory is only a formal presentation of certain things.

Few poor examples:

When I started to play guitar I had lessons were I learned the basic chords, power chords and the notes in an octave but nothing more. From there on I just played. Later when I started to write my own music in my second band around '99 I learned the difference between the 4th, 8th and 16th notes because of the computer software I used for notation. Of course I had previously known the difference between playing two, four, eight or whatever times more notes per bar, but since we taught the riffs face to face there was no need for names like the 16th.

We also didn't know the name for triplet so we called it the six-thingy. Also, I knew the pentatonic minor scale and I figured some new scales out of it. Later I found out that those scales were called natural minor, harmonic minor and lydian. But because I didn't know their names did not stop me from using them :D