The guys in my band are thinking about buying some mikes for the 2 guitars to run them into the PA. This is following our last gig where our balance was quite bad (some people could only hear the lead guitar...). Both guitarists have small-ish amps (30W, solid-state), and they play them almost cranked-up. Just to complete the picture I have a 180W combo, which I play comfortably at about 50%.

I'm also wondering whether it may be worth running the bass into the PA, through the DI output of my amp head.

We play small-ish venues (100 people) for the moment, so I'm not sure this will solve our balance issue.

Any ideas/comments/suggestions?

PS: we are all quite new to this...

We do this in a similar situation. The guitar amps are plenty loud enough to fill the venue, but getting the balance right is tricky. We let the amps carry the bulk of the work (we're playing small venues so don't need more volume), but mic the cabs, and run just a little through the PA to give better spread. It also gives you more control.

Ian

Ya, you want to mic the guitars for balance. Will, also allow you to get the stage volume down.

For bass it's not needed as much as it's my understanding that bass waves are different then the frequencies guitars put out and not as directional. So, in a hundred person max spot, which is probably decent size but small, the bass will be heard just fine in the mix without it being miced.

Also if you have your cab closer to the back wall the room will couple some what and act as your bass cab. Best thing to do is set up early at a venue and see what sounds best out front.

Well... I don't know about 'micing' the guitars over using a actual DI interface, but as the other posters pointed out: going thru the PA for a better 'spread' does make sense. And anytime you have an opportunity to lower stage volume, do it.. you can at least try it out... it may grow on you.

Well... I don't know about 'micing' the guitars over using a actual DI interface
As a guy who doubles on guitar, let me just say, "EWWWWWWWW!!!" to the idea of DI'ing a guitar.

Only use DI on acoustic guitars live or DI with mic' in the studio to give clarity to an overly cranked amp.

Live, small amps mic'ed are great. Guitarist can get their sound at reasonable level and volume for everyone on stage is comfortable to play and can do more with dynamics. Let the PA do what they are designed for.

As a guy who doubles on guitar, let me just say, "EWWWWWWWW!!!" to the idea of DI'ing a guitar.

I dunno Jim... I've NEVER been allowed to mic any of my guitar amps when wearing the guitar hat.. the singers insist I do the DI thing while allowing the guitar amp to barely produce any sound at all.. Seems thats how it works in alot of churches anyway.

I dunno Jim... I've NEVER been allowed to mic any of my guitar amps when wearing the guitar hat.. the singers insist I do the DI thing while allowing the guitar amp to barely produce any sound at all.. Seems thats how it works in alot of churches anyway.
Singers are often extremely egotistical and don't care about anyone sounding good but them. I think if a guitarist is forced to DI, it just shows that they don't care about the band sounding as good as they can be. There's a reason the vast majority of guitarists mic their amps.

if someone asked me to DI my guitar rig I would look very confused.

guitarists don't DI with good reason. a LOT of the tone of a guitar amp comes from the speakers and emulation isn't going to cut it.

the only time I've ever DI'd a guitar is for an extreme clean tone.

The tone of the individual guitar doesn't count...it is how it sounds in the mix.

I have had to prove this to our guitar players over and over again. The absolute best sound we have (as a unit) is when we DI everything and trust the sound man. The "tone" one loses from running through the cabinet speakers is negligible in the mix.

On our ast two gigs, we actually turned our cabs off and relied upon the monitors exclusively for stage volume. We were the tightest we had ever been, and the audience raved about how they could hear every instrument better than ever before. Of course, we have a really good sound person who knows our material and knows when to bring this guy or that guy up for a solo, etc.

I'll get flamed for this, but in my opinion, people who refuse to DI and let the PA work are more interested in their own sound than that of the collective.

I'll get flamed for this, but in my opinion, people who refuse to DI and let the PA work are more interested in their own sound than that of the collective.
Wow, you really think you'll get flamed for a post that insults everyone who doesn't do things your way? Now who would do that?

Not everyone has your particular tonal goals in mind, and not everyone is clueless how to make the sound of a mic'ed cabinet sound good in a mix. I'm not going to flame you, but I AM going to point out that your statement was a pretty insulting and myopic thing to say.

Wow, you really think you'll get flamed for a post that insults everyone who doesn't do things your way? Now who would do that?

Not everyone has your particular tonal goals in mind, and not everyone is clueless how to make the sound of a mic'ed cabinet sound good in a mix. I'm not going to flame you, but I AM going to point out that your statement was a pretty insulting and myopic thing to say.
not only that but in the case of mic'ing an amp the amp is simply being used as a tool to create the tone and the moniter. The majority of the sound that makes it to the croud goes through the PA.

In my experience, the high end from a guitar that goes through the woofers is very directional. Miking the guitar cab allows the hi-end to be dispersed through hi-frequency horns via the PA system so you get much better dispersion of sound. Plus you can keep the stage volume down and avoid blasting the person directly in front of the guitar cab with, well, guitar.

To answer your question, yes.

OK thanks guys for all your answers. I now definitely think it's a good idea :D
(well as long as the sound guy does his job correctly)

There's a guy on eBay selling 160RMS power attenuators that have a line out built in so you can get all the pre-speaker amp sound out to the p.a. I have an 80rms unit(no line out).

It also comes with an speaker ohms switch to match your amp so you can run any cabinet w/o worry about the speaker box ohms (worth the price just for this).

12 step volume adjustment. Works great. Get your tone and then dial in the overall amp volume for the room.

As a guy who doubles on guitar, let me just say, "EWWWWWWWW!!!" to the idea of DI'ing a guitar.



Agreed 100%...



- georgestrings

Singers are often extremely egotistical and don't care about anyone sounding good but them. I think if a guitarist is forced to DI, it just shows that they don't care about the band sounding as good as they can be. There's a reason the vast majority of guitarists mic their amps.


No doubt - I've played tons of gigs as both a bassist and a guitarist, and although I prefer DI for bass, I would flatly refuse to be DI'd for guitar... In fact, I've never had the issue come up during all those guitarist gigs....



-georgestrings

if someone asked me to DI my guitar rig I would look very confused.

guitarists don't DI with good reason. a LOT of the tone of a guitar amp comes from the speakers and emulation isn't going to cut it.

the only time I've ever DI'd a guitar is for an extreme clean tone.



Spot on...



- georgestrings

The tone of the individual guitar doesn't count...it is how it sounds in the mix.

I have had to prove this to our guitar players over and over again. The absolute best sound we have (as a unit) is when we DI everything and trust the sound man. The "tone" one loses from running through the cabinet speakers is negligible in the mix.

On our ast two gigs, we actually turned our cabs off and relied upon the monitors exclusively for stage volume. We were the tightest we had ever been, and the audience raved about how they could hear every instrument better than ever before. Of course, we have a really good sound person who knows our material and knows when to bring this guy or that guy up for a solo, etc.

I'll get flamed for this, but in my opinion, people who refuse to DI and let the PA work are more interested in their own sound than that of the collective.



If you've been around live stage acts for any length of time, you'd know it's almost unheard of for guitarists to DI(unless they're modeling) - that's not a matter of being uncooperative or egotistical - it's simply that nothing sounds the same as a tube amp through a speaker for guitar...



- georgestrings

I like mic'ing the guitars just for the sake of being able to have some in my monitor especially when the guitar player is on the other side of the drums.

sm 57 pointed off axis midway across the cone does majic things for guitar sound,
heck, even dangling one by the wire sounds good.

The tone of the individual guitar doesn't count...it is how it sounds in the mix.

I have had to prove this to our guitar players over and over again. The absolute best sound we have (as a unit) is when we DI everything and trust the sound man. The "tone" one loses from running through the cabinet speakers is negligible in the mix.

On our ast two gigs, we actually turned our cabs off and relied upon the monitors exclusively for stage volume. We were the tightest we had ever been, and the audience raved about how they could hear every instrument better than ever before. Of course, we have a really good sound person who knows our material and knows when to bring this guy or that guy up for a solo, etc.

I'll get flamed for this, but in my opinion, people who refuse to DI and let the PA work are more interested in their own sound than that of the collective.

Well, as a guitarist and a bassist, I find your opinion respectable, since the DI way works very good for some musicians and/or some styles, I mean, when recording you can get a very nasty funky sound out of the guitar by plugging straight to the board. But in my humble opinion, I'm see the PA more as a "reinforcement" system than a main amplifier where everybody should run through and rely on their monitors. This is because I see amps (specially tube ones) as a very important source of tone and feel that just can't be beat in the stage by POD's or emulating DI's (there are some real impressive ones, but more for recording quick, or in a budget for me), I mean, i've experimented both ways and always feel better with a good ol' amp.

The problem is that some classic amps are VERY powerful, and the only way to get their classic tone is WAY UP (think about a Marshall plexi or the SVT). Strictly speaking, this babies may be obsolete in the modern world with powerful PA's, but lots of bands (and audiences sometimes) love the feel of those monsters pounding on their chests. I ALWAYS wonder about how those world famous bands with some real big rigs (100 watt tube guitar amps, x2 sometimes) playing in TV sets, small bars, and stuff, would sound like when standing right next to them. Heard some of them use their rigs as a prop and play smaller things hidden, but a whole lot of those bands sound like they are pushing those big amps for real.

For me the best way for real amp players is, in the first place, having some real sense of their amps' capabilities and having a "small" and "big" rig (you invested big bucks in a half stack, but you shouldn't get rid of that smaller combo you probably had before). In other words, you just DON'T bring a plexi to a small pub (no matter how funny it would seem), you bring a 30-50 watt combo. One great thing about tube amps is that you can get two different amps to sound very consistent between them, because they react very well to your playing dynamics, and show more of you, the player. Just see B.B. King or SRV.

The other thing would be balancing well with the rest of the band in the soundcheck, and placing those amps properly, so the amp is not vomiting decibels right in front of the audience or another band member. I find loud amps, when possible, should go well behind in the stage, so you have a better sound projection that spreads around the whole place, gets a little dampened before it gets to the audience, and doesn't leave someone (the drummer!!) deaf. But anyway, amp placement is a matter of taste, so each band should find the best results for them.

Once you've achieved a nice, big stage sound, (notice: big doesn't necessarily mean ear-splitting) the engineer can do his/her job, and then mic those cabs to get that better overall balance in the mix. Maybe the amps would be doin' the most for covering the whole place, but i find a little of them through the PA very healthy, since i find guitar cabs very directional sounding, and sound changes a lot when you move around the stage.

That way you also leave monitors to do the most for vocals, line only instruments, and maybe in big stages some light reinforcement. I find the drums drown easily on big, open air stages, so the amps in opposite sides of them, i mean, when you play bass at the right, you can't hear the guitarist at the left.

Sorry for the long post, just want to share my experience and my best results, my 2 cents. :)

Sorry for the long post, just want to share my experience and my best results, my 2 cents. :)

On the contrary, thanks for sharing :)

I found that, if there are lots of manuals/docs/FAQs/tutorials on how to *play* well, there is little out there on how to *sound* well, especially in a band context...