It has occurred to me that it doesn't really matter what my cab sounds like when it comes to live sound. No matter what tone I'm going for, the sound guy always makes it thick bass. I play a GK800RB through an Ampeg SVT 410 HLF and an SWR 210, which has plenty of bite but it doesn't come across that way through the PA. Does this cab setup color the sound and give it more bite than the direct out from my amp, or is it the sound guy making me so bassy? I've always wondered why every local band I've seen has sub bass for tone. Is that just the way they do it, or do I need a more transparent cab?

Some of it is the soundguy, some of it is the system, size of the room, and some of it is your EQ. I never boost sub-bass frequencies. Set it flat then it should be less of an issue.

I actually have 60, 250, and 1000 hz set less than flat at about 25%, and the treble set flat. Sometimes I turn up the 1000 hz . It has good presence and bite through my cab, but still comes through much bassier in the PA. If I turn the bass down anymore it loses all bass. Maybe I just need to boost the hi mids a little more. This is a very different EQ setup with my T-40 than I used to use with my Jazz bass which needed the bass at about 70%.

I just boost my mids a bit so I can cut through and at least hear myself on stage. Other than that, I pray the FOH engineer knows what he's doing.

the old shool rule of thumb for sound guys is to lock the bass guitar to the kick drum. if the system is three-way or four-way utilizing folded or bent horn subs, it will be "thick" and bassy indoors. the same type system will be far flatter sounding outdoors.
I like to try to limit the locking of bg to kick drum to the lo b and e string areas frequencywise.

I just boost my mids a bit so I can cut through and at least hear myself on stage. Other than that, I pray the FOH engineer knows what he's doing.

Hey Andy!

The midrange bite for stage monitoring is why I find the Schroeder 1212R cab so nice. It has a natural mid bump, that is so controversial here on TB. But this situation is exactly why its nice. I keep my tone path/EQ the same (to front house) and the Schoeder's naturally bump my mids onstage. Best of both worlds.

Hey Andy!

The midrange bite for stage monitoring is why I find the Schroeder 1212R cab so nice. It has a natural mid bump, that is so controversial here on TB. But this situation is exactly why its nice. I keep my tone path/EQ the same (to front house) and the Schoeder's naturally bump my mids onstage. Best of both worlds.

Yo Jonesy! I'd love to try that Schroeder out some time. Also need to get out to a Telesma show soon.

the old shool rule of thumb for sound guys is to lock the bass guitar to the kick drum. if the system is three-way or four-way utilizing folded or bent horn subs, it will be "thick" and bassy indoors. the same type system will be far flatter sounding outdoors.
I like to try to limit the locking of bg to kick drum to the lo b and e string areas frequencywise.

+1

yeah man, anytime you want to check it out, I have 2 :)

I think Telesma will be coming through Annapolis on June 27th, at the Whiskey.

peace




Yo Jonesy! I'd love to try that Schroeder out some time. Also need to get out to a Telesma show soon.

If you have the chance i.e. the soundguy's not too busy and your band's not running late, invite him onstage. Say, "Hey can I get you help with my tone. Other soundguys have had a hard time nailing this, do you think you can get this sound (in front of the amp) out there?"

Be nice and get there early enough to get to know the guy and good luck.

+1. Are U DI-ing or mic-ing the abss sound?

Mic your amp. The soundguy will still EQ his way, but he'll never be totally able to dial out "your" sound completely.

It has occurred to me that it doesn't really matter what my cab sounds like when it comes to live sound. No matter what tone I'm going for, the sound guy always makes it thick bass. I play a GK800RB through an Ampeg SVT 410 HLF and an SWR 210, which has plenty of bite but it doesn't come across that way through the PA. Does this cab setup color the sound and give it more bite than the direct out from my amp, or is it the sound guy making me so bassy? I've always wondered why every local band I've seen has sub bass for tone. Is that just the way they do it, or do I need a more transparent cab?

Bass cabs and bass amps in general are atrocious reference , try to listen to a well mixed CD through your bass amp , very bad ain't it ?

So since your reference (bass amp) is not a good reference , you'll NEVER have the same sound in the FOH.
Even if the soundman only uses a mic , the room, reflections, stage noise , other equipement will make it sound different. It's impossible to duplicate a bass amp sound exaclty as it is in a PA due to reference and physics.

The point of this thread is reproducing the tone created by the amp, not by the bass guitar. The OP wants the color from his rig in the front of house.

BTW, CD's sound fine through my bi-amped combo with a bullet tweeter. Through the beginner's level Fender sealed 10-inch combo with CD-inputs, it indeed sounds atrocious - too much bass.

IME, most SE's don't care about "your tone". They get paid to do the "mix" and since they're the pros (at least in their eyes), whatever you say is ignored.

Recently I spoke with a bass player letting him know that the bass sound/tone out front was overpowering everything else. He said "It's the sound guy". My bass on stage is fine. Go talk to him".

The point of this thread is reproducing the tone created by the amp, not by the bass guitar. The OP wants the color from his rig in the front of house.


Yeah , you are right.
I forgot to insert " with a DI" somewhere in my post....:hiding:

That overly thick sound is from your amp - it has a lot more boom in the room than it does on stage. Unless the bass rig is adjusted for how it sounds in the house (IF the rig has the appropriate EQ, which most do not), there's always a range of bass frequencies that are too hot in the room even when that range is pulled completely out of the bass channel of the PA.

Good points here. Definitely try talking to the sound guy about micing your rig to get the attack of it. Might want to mic the GK 210 - that cab should have more midrange attack than the Ampeg 410HLF. I would suggest sending a DI signal and a miced signal to the sound guy, mic for attack and mids mainly while the DI does mainly the lows and low mids.

Not to hijack the thread, but do most soundguys realize that bass guitar tones don't all sound like a booming muddy mess? And what in the heck is up with turning the bass guitar down generally in the mix by sound guy's? I know we are not the lead instrument, but our tone carries a song and we need to be at a good volume to have the band sound good.

Micing will give the character of the rig, but the DI will better give the attack and articulation.

I think the booming muddy mess problem is that when they turn the bass up in the PA it adds to the already too much boom from the bass rig, and many don't seem to know that they can use those little faucets on the board to remove the boomy frequencies from the bass channel and to add growl and/ or bite to the bass channel. But, if there is already too much of something in the room from the bass rig, they cannot cure the problem, only try to fill in the missing bits and hope the end result is not too loud for the mix.

If you are constantly working with an 'engineer' who insists on boosting the lows and scooping out the mids it might be a good idea to buy a filter of some sort to cut most of those frequencies out of whatever signal you are sending to the board. You can't add in what isn't there. A lot of sound guys are abusive with compression and sonic enhancers which sometimes don't work well when you are sending anything other than DI from the bass. Actually, in the wrong hands, those tools don't work well at all.

I recently stopped trying to get my stage tone out to the board and went back to a SA bass driver for DI. I put it after my OD, Dist, and effects so they still get in the mix. It's not as angry and aggressive as the tone on stage with two blended preamps, but it's closer to what we want as a band than a simple DI with no sort of emulation.

In the last two years (DI from stage rig) I've received a few compliments on playing but never had anyone mention tone. Last night was the first time in well over a year that I went back to the bass driver. Strangly enough there were three 'great tone' comments from the crowd on break and a even a 'how are you getting that?' from a fellow bass player. Even though the band and I believe the bass tone at FOH has been good until making the re-switch, this tells me a lot. I just wish there was a GK800 version of the Sansamp products, I love that sound and only enjoy the Ampeg type of tone.

Micing will give the character of the rig, but the DI will better give the attack and articulation.

I think the booming muddy mess problem is that when they turn the bass up in the PA it adds to the already too much boom from the bass rig, and many don't seem to know that they can use those little faucets on the board to remove the boomy frequencies from the bass channel and to add growl and/ or bite to the bass channel. But, if there is already too much of something in the room from the bass rig, they cannot cure the problem, only try to fill in the missing bits and hope the end result is not too loud for the mix.

+10

As a current bass player and former professional sound engineer, I can't begin to number the instances of when I had the FOH balanced well and then the bass player turns up a little bit. I turn him down a little bit in FOH to rebalance - when prompts him to turn up more... until the FOH is no longer in control of BG levels. After that point, you're mixing everything else to blend in with whatever the bass guitar guy is doing... plus usually fighting to allow the vocalists to still be able to hear the monitors.

Being a player now, I'm constantly reminding myself that what I'm hearing on stage is not the FOH balance or tone.

Like it or not, the FOH engineer ends up being the defacto 'producer' for the sound of a live event. Good ones will be able to accept input from an actual producer regarding the desired end tone result and work to reproduce that. Others will just go with whatever 'sounds right to them'. The goal of any amplification on stage should be only what is needed onstage (assuming a FOH/venue size large enough that the individual instrument amps aren't needed to provide a significant contribution to the FOH mix.)

IME, most SE's don't care about "your tone". They get paid to do the "mix" and since they're the pros (at least in their eyes), whatever you say is ignored.

Recently I spoke with a bass player letting him know that the bass sound/tone out front was overpowering everything else. He said "It's the sound guy". My bass on stage is fine. Go talk to him".

+1

IME, No one cares about "your tone" except you.

Last weekend I had the sound guy come up to me on stage during a tune and tell me that my amp (GK1001 & Schro1212R) was coming through too much out front. I shrugged my shoulders and said "what do you want me to do? I'm in the middle of a song." Then I told him to do what ever he needed to do to my amp to make it right. He turned me down to the point where I could no longer hear my amp and only the slapback from the FOH bass.

That stuff is no fun, but if you're a professional you just deal with it. It is not about YOU, it is about the audience. The FOH guy has all the power, so you just deal with it. If it sounds better out front, then everybody wins.

I actually got compliments that night from a few groupies who said it was the best we ever sounded. It stunk for me, but worked for them. Mission accomplished.

+1

IME, No one cares about "your tone" except you.

Last weekend I had the sound guy come up to me on stage during a tune and tell me that my amp (GK1001 & Schro1212R) was coming through too much out front. I shrugged my shoulders and said "what do you want me to do? I'm in the middle of a song." Then I told him to do what ever he needed to do to my amp to make it right. He turned me down to the point where I could no longer hear my amp and only the slapback from the FOH bass.

That stuff is no fun, but if you're a professional you just deal with it. It is not about YOU, it is about the audience. The FOH guy has all the power, so you just deal with it. If it sounds better out front, then everybody wins.

I actually got compliments that night from a few groupies who said it was the best we ever sounded. It stunk for me, but worked for them. Mission accomplished.

+1. Don't know if you considered this, but when I play with a full front of house system, but without a monitor system capable of serving as my only on stage sound source, I always set my rig off to the side of the stage and point it across the stage, perpendicular to the audience. That way, you aren't messing with the front of house sound (most sound people very much appreciate it), you can still crank it a bit for you own monitoring, and your stage sound actually many times gets better, since often you cab is even with other band members or even in front of them.

I know that's obvious, but just in case you haven't tried it, it's a wonderful thing for everyone IMO and IME!

+1. Don't know if you considered this, but when I play with a full front of house system, but without a monitor system capable of serving as my only on stage sound source, I always set my rig off to the side of the stage and point it across the stage, perpendicular to the audience. That way, you aren't messing with the front of house sound (most sound people very much appreciate it), you can still crank it a bit for you own monitoring, and your stage sound actually many times gets better, since often you cab is even with other band members or even in front of them.

I know that's obvious, but just in case you haven't tried it, it's a wonderful thing for everyone IMO and IME!

I do the same, actually angled at the drummer from behind the FOH stack. Usually cut the low on the amp a bit as well to keep the lower frequencies from bleeding over. Works very well, enough that the guitarists are now doing the same thing.

+1. Don't know if you considered this, but when I play with a full front of house system, but without a monitor system capable of serving as my only on stage sound source, I always set my rig off to the side of the stage and point it across the stage, perpendicular to the audience. That way, you aren't messing with the front of house sound (most sound people very much appreciate it), you can still crank it a bit for you own monitoring, and your stage sound actually many times gets better, since often you cab is even with other band members or even in front of them.

I know that's obvious, but just in case you haven't tried it, it's a wonderful thing for everyone IMO and IME!

For guitar this works to some extent. For bass the only thing it does is remove the overly twanky bits from killing people - the overly loud boom out front will be unchanged.

I like good sound as much as the next guy, but one thing that's never bothered me is a little bleed from the stage. Some PA guys freak out about it so much, and they're what I like to call "amateurs."

I like good sound as much as the next guy, but one thing that's never bothered me is a little bleed from the stage. Some PA guys freak out about it so much, and they're what I like to call "amateurs."

+1 Once again I agree with you Jimmy.

I'd say that live you cant avoid bleed between instruments, so a decent engineer will know how to cope/minimise/go with it.

In fact a lot of very very good studio recordings have plenty of bleed in them too, and all live drum tracks have some bleed.

Gating everything to the point of having no bleed is not only impractical it sounds like absolute rubbish too...

If a PA is doing the right thing it is bringing the sound of a performance to the audience, by definition it shouldnt be a problem to have some bleed off stage!

I like good sound as much as the next guy, but one thing that's never bothered me is a little bleed from the stage. Some PA guys freak out about it so much, and they're what I like to call "amateurs."I agree, a little bleed from stage is fine.:smug:

Did anyone mention crossovers? Any good P.A. rig should have them in the rack.. if you raise the freq in the crossovers less boom, mud,etc. When subs are involved the crossovers, dial type, reaily help alot. if its at 80hz, bumpit to 120hz, or what ever it takes. Remember Im talking about the ones that fade the freqs not the ones that are freq cutoffs. I have a Sunn 300 from the 80's, the one no one likes, and it has a crossover in the Biamp output, I run a 1/4 " line from it to a DI and set it to the room, and it pretty much sounds in the room as it does onstage. All my "modern" heads with DI and no built in crossover color the sound to the P.A. to much. With the Sunn, crossover, etc I have a smooth "piano" bass sound in the room, and the sound guys love it.

+1

IME, No one cares about "your tone" except you.

Last weekend I had the sound guy come up to me on stage during a tune and tell me that my amp (GK1001 & Schro1212R) was coming through too much out front. I shrugged my shoulders and said "what do you want me to do? I'm in the middle of a song." Then I told him to do what ever he needed to do to my amp to make it right. He turned me down to the point where I could no longer hear my amp and only the slapback from the FOH bass.

That stuff is no fun, but if you're a professional you just deal with it. It is not about YOU, it is about the audience. The FOH guy has all the power, so you just deal with it. If it sounds better out front, then everybody wins.

I actually got compliments that night from a few groupies who said it was the best we ever sounded. It stunk for me, but worked for them. Mission accomplished.

+1,000,000x10^23

Ive read all this thread and understand most of it, even if its gone a bit off track but one thing i would like to ask any of the SE's in this thread is why, when using a big rig do us bass player end up with quite a generic tone.

While it might well fit in with the bass drum and i can understand that using a much fuller rig than a bass rig will give a lot more low and high end ive never had a SE try and get "my" tone out in to the room. Even DI'ing straight off the bass why cant they hear what it is i like (or even ask) and try and get some sort of representation of that?

Im not talking about having a good mix FOH but having a mix that represents us.

Having been watching some of the outdoor festivals on TV the past few weeks most of the bands all seem to have more or less the same tone. As this is coming off the desk its not really showing the effort some people put in to getting their tone.
Im sure bands that do have their own SE fair much better but i get the feeling us bass players are getting a bum deal here.
Most (if not all) guitarists would explode if a SE said he was only going to DI the guitar and not mic up their lovely vintage Fender twin, why dont we have the same choice all the time?
I know thats how it is but no ones explained to me why that's how it is and why it cant change.

Ill go back in my hole now:hiding:

Ive read all this thread and understand most of it, even if its gone a bit off track but one thing i would like to ask any of the SE's in this thread is why, when using a big rig do us bass player end up with quite a generic tone.

While it might well fit in with the bass drum and i can understand that using a much fuller rig than a bass rig will give a lot more low and high end ive never had a SE try and get "my" tone out in to the room. Even DI'ing straight off the bass why cant they hear what it is i like (or even ask) and try and get some sort of representation of that?

Im not talking about having a good mix FOH but having a mix that represents us.

Having been watching some of the outdoor festivals on TV the past few weeks most of the bands all seem to have more or less the same tone. As this is coming off the desk its not really showing the effort some people put in to getting their tone.
Im sure bands that do have their own SE fair much better but i get the feeling us bass players are getting a bum deal here.
Most (if not all) guitarists would explode if a SE said he was only going to DI the guitar and not mic up their lovely vintage Fender twin, why dont we have the same choice all the time?
I know thats how it is but no ones explained to me why that's how it is and why it cant change.

Ill go back in my hole now:hiding:

Most guitarists also end up with generic tone at FOH as well. It's the same as playing a passive single coil vs. active humbucker or whatever you can imagine. The tone is just a bit different either way, but when I played a 70's Strat through any effects, through a Fender tube amp running a Marshall cab mic'd with an SM57 the final eq'd tone from FOH didn't vary all that much from a Les Paul through a Marshall head with the same mic. Yes, the overall tone and harmonic structure varied but they got eq'd every time to sound like a generic rock guitar sound with a bit of my own flavor.

Guitarists get mic'd because it's what works for the instrument and most engineers know how to make a mic'd guitar amp fit the mix they want to hear. They also know a DI straight from a 6-string electric guitar sounds like absolute garbage, try it and hear for yourself.

It's unfortunate but bass just works well for most people, in most places, playing most genres, with most FOH systems when a DI is taken straight from the bass output jack. It's usually quick and easy too.

It's unfortunate but bass just works well for most people, in most places, playing most genres, with most FOH systems when a DI is taken straight from the bass output jack. It's usually quick and easy too.

I take your points but my question still is once the SE has a good feed, be it DI or Mic why is all the character then EQ'ed out of it?
i can understand EQ'ing for the room but its almost like its standard practice to make all basses sound the same.
Maybe its just me that hears it like that. Even at big gigs that ive been to the bass is sort of sitting in the mix, holding down the low end but not much more (of course thats only the bands ive seen, cant comment on anything esle)

I know what you mean about guitar's sounding the same as well.
I found that nearly all the bands i watched at Glastonbury had what i call a festival sound. lifeless and flat.

I take your points but my question still is once the SE has a good feed, be it DI or Mic why is all the character then EQ'ed out of it?

I would imagine that part of the reason is that there is only so much sonic space in the soundstage for bass. It is like when you're mixing in a studio. You don't wan't the bass guitar down where the kick is, so you lo-cut the bass just above where the kick is hi-cut. Now you hi-cut the bass so it leaves room for the keys, guitar, vocals, etc. It happens to everyone on stage, not just the bass. Vocals might be the only exception, but that's because in most bands everything revolves around the vocals.

I would imagine that part of the reason is that there is only so much sonic space in the soundstage for bass. It is like when you're mixing in a studio. You don't wan't the bass guitar down where the kick is, so you lo-cut the bass just above where the kick is hi-cut. Now you hi-cut the bass so it leaves room for the keys, guitar, vocals, etc. It happens to everyone on stage, not just the bass. Vocals might be the only exception, but that's because in most bands everything revolves around the vocals.

But there seems to be enough sonic space when we do our own mix. Mainly useing just a vocla PA and backline.
It sounds good then so why cant it sound close, but louder?

Ive seen (heard) the real big bands do it. Look at Pink floyd etc, every note really clear so it must be possible.

But there seems to be enough sonic space when we do our own mix. Mainly useing just a vocla PA and backline.
It sounds good then so why cant it sound close, but louder?

Ive seen (heard) the real big bands do it. Look at Pink floyd etc, every note really clear so it must be possible.

Think about it. In a bar or small hall, you may have a 50W guitar amp and a 5000W PA. In a large venue, you might have a 100W guitar amp and a 100,000W PA. The 50W guitar amp in a bar is a much bigger percentage of the overall sound than is the 100W amp in a large venue. The lower percentage that is stage volume, the cleaner the mix gets (providing that the person driving knows that he's doing).

I would imagine that part of the reason is that there is only so much sonic space in the soundstage for bass. It is like when you're mixing in a studio. You don't wan't the bass guitar down where the kick is, so you lo-cut the bass just above where the kick is hi-cut. Now you hi-cut the bass so it leaves room for the keys, guitar, vocals, etc. It happens to everyone on stage, not just the bass. Vocals might be the only exception, but that's because in most bands everything revolves around the vocals.

I expect that this is a lot of the reason that so many current albums have no balls at all - they take an instrument that does not go very low (kick drum) and then high pass above this the only instrument in the ensemble that does go low (the bass). NOT the way to go.

I think the other reason is that a lot more albums are recorded and mastered on speakers that can't reproduce low end. Since the mixperson cannot tell that there is low end there, he high passes everything just for safety. (Or, he high passes because his monitoring system cannot handle any lows that are there.)

In small gigs I use my amp to fill the room, but when we play big gigs I use my amp as a monitor on the side and I let the PA do all the work. A good way to get your PA sound is to kill your cabinet and do a song only using the PA. You might suffer on stage for a song but it allows you to get a good sound when the band is playing. A lot of people get a killer sound during a quick sound check, but once the band starts the bass doesn't cut through.

+10

As a current bass player and former professional sound engineer, I can't begin to number the instances of when I had the FOH balanced well and then the bass player turns up a little bit. I turn him down a little bit in FOH to rebalance - when prompts him to turn up more... until the FOH is no longer in control of BG levels. After that point, you're mixing everything else to blend in with whatever the bass guitar guy is doing... plus usually fighting to allow the vocalists to still be able to hear the monitors.

Being a player now, I'm constantly reminding myself that what I'm hearing on stage is not the FOH balance or tone.

Like it or not, the FOH engineer ends up being the defacto 'producer' for the sound of a live event. Good ones will be able to accept input from an actual producer regarding the desired end tone result and work to reproduce that. Others will just go with whatever 'sounds right to them'. The goal of any amplification on stage should be only what is needed onstage (assuming a FOH/venue size large enough that the individual instrument amps aren't needed to provide a significant contribution to the FOH mix.)

flip the phase of the rig on the board? that should quiet him down a lil. johnny a

It has occurred to me that it doesn't really matter what my cab sounds like when it comes to live sound. No matter what tone I'm going for, the sound guy always makes it thick bass. I play a GK800RB through an Ampeg SVT 410 HLF and an SWR 210, which has plenty of bite but it doesn't come across that way through the PA. Does this cab setup color the sound and give it more bite than the direct out from my amp, or is it the sound guy making me so bassy? I've always wondered why every local band I've seen has sub bass for tone. Is that just the way they do it, or do I need a more transparent cab?

welcome to the jungle :D johnny a

Think about it. In a bar or small hall, you may have a 50W guitar amp and a 5000W PA. In a large venue, you might have a 100W guitar amp and a 100,000W PA. The 50W guitar amp in a bar is a much bigger percentage of the overall sound than is the 100W amp in a large venue. The lower percentage that is stage volume, the cleaner the mix gets (providing that the person driving knows that he's doing).

Yes but what im asking (and maybe im being a bit of a pian now so sorry to keep going on) is why doenst the FOH sound like the backline a bit more.
Im all for keeping the sound low on stage and i have gigged with just my bass DI'ed in to the PA so i understand most fo this but if my rig has a certain tone that i like why cant the SE at least try and get it and not just mix out a lot of the tone, just so it sits down low with the bass drum in a generic sort of way. We work hard to get our sound and even though going through a 10,000watt PA is totality different isn't the reason we have PA's this size is to relay the band but louder?

+1. Don't know if you considered this, but when I play with a full front of house system, but without a monitor system capable of serving as my only on stage sound source, I always set my rig off to the side of the stage and point it across the stage, perpendicular to the audience. That way, you aren't messing with the front of house sound (most sound people very much appreciate it), you can still crank it a bit for you own monitoring, and your stage sound actually many times gets better, since often you cab is even with other band members or even in front of them.

I know that's obvious, but just in case you haven't tried it, it's a wonderful thing for everyone IMO and IME!

I started doing this about a year ago. Good way to keep stage volume relatively separate from what's going out through the PA.

The funny thing is, I tend to play with my eyes closed sometimes, and when I do that I automatically put my back to the sound of the amp.....

Yes but what im asking (and maybe im being a bit of a pian now so sorry to keep going on) is why doenst the FOH sound like the backline a bit more.
Im all for keeping the sound low on stage and i have gigged with just my bass DI'ed in to the PA so i understand most fo this but if my rig has a certain tone that i like why cant the SE at least try and get it and not just mix out a lot of the tone, just so it sits down low with the bass drum in a generic sort of way. We work hard to get our sound and even though going through a 10,000watt PA is totality different isn't the reason we have PA's this size is to relay the band but louder?

Sometimes, the sound in your head (or, the sound on stage) wouldn't work out in the house.

And by sometimes, I mean most of the time.

+10

As a current bass player and former professional sound engineer, I can't begin to number the instances of when I had the FOH balanced well and then the bass player turns up a little bit. I turn him down a little bit in FOH to rebalance - when prompts him to turn up more... until the FOH is no longer in control of BG levels. After that point, you're mixing everything else to blend in with whatever the bass guitar guy is doing... plus usually fighting to allow the vocalists to still be able to hear the monitors.

Being a player now, I'm constantly reminding myself that what I'm hearing on stage is not the FOH balance or tone.

Like it or not, the FOH engineer ends up being the defacto 'producer' for the sound of a live event. Good ones will be able to accept input from an actual producer regarding the desired end tone result and work to reproduce that. Others will just go with whatever 'sounds right to them'. The goal of any amplification on stage should be only what is needed onstage (assuming a FOH/venue size large enough that the individual instrument amps aren't needed to provide a significant contribution to the FOH mix.)

I've come around to agree with this but it has now influenced me in a strange way... I'm hesitant to touch the BG's active preamp for fear it will mess with the FOH sound. I don't like to make the soundman's job difficult.

So here is my current solution: I have a core onstage sound I go for which is controlled by my amp and its eq. I send the soundman the hottest, cleanest pre EQ signal I can give him. The majority of the tone I go for is inherent in the flat settings of the BG and amp, and of course (don't roll your eyes) my hands. I make only small adjustments for the eq via the amp to compensate for unwanted frequencies on stage - this doesn't affect the FOH. I then make only MINOR changes for tone if necessary on the bass being careful to keep the volume the same (ie, if I change pickup settings I try to not disrupt the mix). For more monitor volume I only play with the master volume on the amp and not the volume on the bass.

I try to move about onstage and off to see what the audience might be hearing and I always thank the soundman and ask for his feedback and suggestions.

So far this is working out well, although I'm pretty sure my concept of bass tone isn't the same as the soundman's. He makes the bass sound to the audience how he wants it. As long as the song sounds good I'm ok with that. To the extent it doesn't, I provide the unsolicited feedback :)

I take your points but my question still is once the SE has a good feed, be it DI or Mic why is all the character then EQ'ed out of it?
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An EQ can't change the tone of an instrument.
You will still have your tone , the EQ'ing , if done correctly , will serve the whole mix.
You can't make a Fender Jazz sound like a Rickenbaker with a FOH board's parametric EQ.
You can't make a Vox30 sound like a marshall with an EQ , etc....

Yes but what im asking (and maybe im being a bit of a pian now so sorry to keep going on) is why doenst the FOH sound like the backline a bit more.
Im all for keeping the sound low on stage and i have gigged with just my bass DI'ed in to the PA so i understand most fo this but if my rig has a certain tone that i like why cant the SE at least try and get it and not just mix out a lot of the tone, just so it sits down low with the bass drum in a generic sort of way. We work hard to get our sound and even though going through a 10,000watt PA is totality different isn't the reason we have PA's this size is to relay the band but louder?

I have to imagine that SEs have a tone THEY go for -- so, just as you have a tone for yourself, they have a tone for their venue. There's no way, in 20 minutes of sound-checking, they can translate every unique bassist's style (and that of the drummer, guitarists, keys, etc.) into something that sound like you intended AND works for the room. So instead, they move everything to a set of tones that they KNOW will work, regardless of how closely it resembles your intended tone. Remember, as has been said, nobody really cares about the bassist's tone like the bassist might -- everyone else, SE included, cares about the house mix. Hell, the rest of the BAND might not care -- they just want to hear everyone, and then hear their OWN tone.

I'd throw out two other fun variables -- lots of bands sound like crap and don't know it -- so SEs are usually doing those folks a favor by changing their tone; and plenty of SEs are not actually SEs but rather are bartenders that already work at the club or bar and who know enough to get an acceptable job done -- so if you get anything that resembles a decent mix, you should thank the stars...

The best way to insure you get your tone and your mix in every venue is to buy your own system, and hire a dedicated sound guy. Note the cost...

I remember the first big place I played, and hearing the FOH mix (I was using a wireless)...I hated it. But I remembered hearing one of the earlier bands, and realized it was going to sound good in the room, so I went back on stage and pretended I'd never heard it. That I didn't have my friends signaling at me all night that different things needed to be turned up tells me he (the SE) was right on.

Cheers!
ltt

Any SE will deal with the sound coming from the band , and he has to do a decent mix no matter what the band sounds like.
I'm 50% SE-bass player and sometimes you have to make it sound good even if the guitar player has more low end than the bass player , the keyboards are all over the place in dynamics with different patches , the bass player amp is louder than the PA , the drummer don't know how to tune a drum , and it is a female signer.....:smug:
It looks like a joke but I've mixed band like that , and all those players thought they were the s****

And again a soundman CAN'T CHANGE YOUR TONE.
He will EQ you so that he can get a decent mix by removing unwanted "ringing frequencies" and trying not to "overlap" different instrument in the same frequency range.

IMHO and IME , arrangements are more important than a good soundman. And like you know , arrangements include ( and is not only ) allowing the frequency range ( like a string or horn section ) and most important ; the dynamics.

I take your points but my question still is once the SE has a good feed, be it DI or Mic why is all the character then EQ'ed out of it?



Because a significant amount of the "character" in your bass tone is located in the same frequency range as the guitars, vocals, keys, parts of the drum kit and many other instruments depending on your band. The sad truth is that those instruments need to have a lot of room there without interference from the bass in order to get the sound that is most pleasing to he audience.

Or think of it from the other direction. Suppose you were in a Primus tribute band. You would EQ the bass first and make sure that the bass tone would be right up front and the audience could hear it loud and clear in all its glory. Then you'd mix in the drums and maybe dial back a tiny amount of the bass here and there to make room for them. Then you'd mix in just enough guitar and vocals to make them audible, making sure they only took up a very narrow portion of frequency so they wouldn't interfere with the bass and drums, and not caring so much that the guitar and vocals sounded thin and lacked character.

Granted, this is somewhat of an oversimplification, because there is compression and other processing going on, but it is pretty much accurate. In any band (that is not Primus) the bass isn't going to be top priority and its tone is sacrificed for the good of the other instruments. Now if you were in a Rush or RHCP type of band, then at least you could hope to get equal treatment to the other instruments. :p