Band Performance tips for good live sound

I started a thread about this elsewhere a few months ago, can't find it now. I'm hoping for good enough advice to merit "sticky" status.

We all know the sound man and the PA are the crucial final link in achieving a great live sound, Most of the threads here relate to this fact.However, I have noticed over the years that even with the same PA/sound guy, relatively equivalent gear, and relatively equal technical skill, some bands just sound better live than others: Band A will be muddy and indistinct, while band B will be clear,each instrument cuts in the mix, lyrics are intelligible, everything is nice and balanced -just plain better sound

We as musicians and performers are the FIRST link in the chain of good live sound, and some bands clearly are
doing something more as musicians and as a band to sound good live. Things that do not depend on gear, things
that you can practice as a band at rehearsals.

I think that there are a lot of things to keep in mind that are not as obvious as simply playing your parts correctly. So what are some things these great live bands do, to help achieve a good live sound?

Would love to hear from the older pros and especially bassists who have also been sound guys. Even serious suggestions about what NOT to do could help.

Just to start off , here's what I recall form the old thread:

-PRACTICE SOLO
Knowing your parts as well as possible should go without saying. Practice your parts at home with the metronome, and when you get together as a band, rehearse as a band. Common advice around TB.

- DYNAMICS
Great live bands really pay attention to dynamics. Everybody knows when the sound needs to go from loud to soft, and plays with appropriate energy. A subtle point about dynamics is that it can be more than just volume. A pro drummer I once played with was trying to explain that you should be able to play with more intensity without speeding up or playing louder. I'm still struggling with that point!

-RELATIVE INSTRUMENT VOLUME kind of a subset of dynamics, but such a common failing it bears mention. As I've heard it described best: The beginner says "I can't hear myself, I'd better turn up" the old master says " I can't hear myself - could everybody else please turn down?" The goal is to have everybody heard clearly at the lowest volume required for your desired tone...and generally everybody needs to fall behind the vocals. Where you find out how skilled your drummer really is :)

- EQ SPECTRUM
In the interest of having everybody heard clearly, we must recognize that each instrument needs its own "space" in the eq spectrum, and tweak your knobs accordingly.
For me, I always think of the 200-500 hz low mids as being the "bass" zone...More detailed info about where standard instruments sit in the EQ spectrum would be appreciated!

A few more tips:

- Know how to use the EQ and what kind of sound suits the mix the best. An instrument might sound incredible on it's own eq'd in a certain way, but mixed in a band setting it might sound terrible. (This relates to the EQ spectrum paragraph in mambo's post). E.g. a bass-heavy, mid-scooped guitar often works incredibly bad in a live setting.

- Everyone doesn't have to play at all times. Works wonders with the dynamics if someone can shut up once in a while.. ;) And yes, dynamics is not just volume, it's FAR more than that. Just hard to explain in words what it is. I know it when I hear it, kind of...

- For most of the non-instrumental music you hear, the rule is that vocals come first and must always be heard. That's what the audience focus on. And no, you don't have to boost the treble on the vocals, boost the volume instead so it cuts through. And cut the bass if you can't hear the words clearly. This has to do with mic technique. If you sing with you lips touching the grill of the mic, you easily get a bass-heavy sound. One inch away gives a more natural sound (but I know it's incredibly difficult to follow this if you don't hear yourself very loudly in the monitors).

- if you don't have a soundman, it's good to ask for input about the FOH sound from certain people in the audience that you know well.

- If you soundcheck all instruments so they sound great and powerful in the PA, you are very likely to play way too loud when you all play together and you have to change the mix...

Just my two cents.

Good ideas above. My choice of bass amps never seem to have a good 'throw'. To project in the room better I had to get used to being one louder than I feel it should be onstage. According to the sound folks & people whose ears I trusted it seemed to work.

on the Idea of dynamics beyond simple volume, here's some lecture notes I took:

10 ways of building musical intensity
from Rob Bowman's analysis of Otis Redding’s recording of "Try a Little Tenderness"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Bowman_(music_writer)

1. Volume- loudness increases.
2. Density -number of parts playing at once.
3. Tempo -speed up.
4. Rhythmic activity - eg: side-stick quarter notes to full drum beat.
5. Timbre -same parts but new instruments/ effects.
6. "playful voicedness" -vibrato, pitch slide, improvised lyics "oh yeah" "you know I gotta tell ya"
7. Pitch - same parts up third/ fifth/ octave. New parts w/higher pitches.
8. Harmonic content - fewer chords to more chords, simple chords to extended.
9. Harmonic Rhythm - rate at which new chords come.
10. Linguistic Sense to sonic sense - abandoning lyrics for pure vocal expression.

on the Idea of dynamics beyond simple volume, here's some lecture notes I took:

10 ways of building musical intensity
from Rob Bowman's analysis of Otis Redding’s recording of "Try a Little Tenderness"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Bowman_(music_writer)

1. Volume- loudness increases.
2. Density -number of parts playing at once.
3. Tempo -speed up.
4. Rhythmic activity - eg: side-stick quarter notes to full drum beat.
5. Timbre -same parts but new instruments/ effects.
6. "playful voicedness" -vibrato, pitch slide, improvised lyics "oh yeah" "you know I gotta tell ya"
7. Pitch - same parts up third/ fifth/ octave. New parts w/higher pitches.
8. Harmonic content - fewer chords to more chords, simple chords to extended.
9. Harmonic Rhythm - rate at which new chords come.
10. Linguistic Sense to sonic sense - abandoning lyrics for pure vocal expression.

Interesting, I agree on all points. :) But I don't know how practical point 3 is if you also want to take down the intensity. It's harder to slow down than it is to speed up... :)

The beginner says "I can't hear myself, I'd better turn up" the old master says " I can't hear myself - could everybody else please turn down?"



YES I completly agree

The beginner says "I can't hear myself, I'd better turn up" the old master says " I can't hear myself - could everybody else please turn down?"



YES I completly agree

Unless the old master has a 10watt combo and your playing to 300 people with only a vocal PA :hiding:

1. Bring your own sound and no how to set it.
2. Or, 2 tip the sound guy up front and hope he's not a dick.


My alternative was to have my band go all bose L1 for small to mid sized gigs. Our sound is always great now. For large places we just run line outs and know at least the stage sound is great and hope the FOH guy does a good job.

I've always had the best experience with live sound when I brought my own P.A. regardless of type of PA. The only places you can't really do this are big venues.

I've found that house sound always has some sort of problem. I've had nothing but bad experience with house sound and house sound guys. In over 17 years of playing out I think I can count a grand total of 3 times where I used house sound and was happy with it and someone in the audience didn't complain about something.

Give the loudest guy in the band the loudest monitor mix, with a lot of him in it. :D

Develop the skill of working out what's causing the problem with the sound, and the ability to fix it on the fly: e.g. is that feedback because your guitarist won't turn down, or because the vocal mic is pointed at the drum wedge? Get it clear with the engineer what you want in the FOH and the foldback mix early on. Be nice to them. Buy them a beer as you tell them how many DI's you need.
Be able to think on your feet: generally from past experience it's the bassist who's the guy who can solder dodgy guitar cables etc and one other string you should have is live soundcraft. Know your way around a mixer!

The key to successful live sound: A drummer who doesn't pound.

if you don't have a soundman, it's good to ask for input about the FOH sound from certain people in the audience that you know well.I will add: IT DOESN'T SOUND THE SAME ONSTAGE AS IS DOES IN THE AUDIENCE.

You need to have some faith in whoever is giving you input from the audience. If you sound too soft to yourself on stage, and the the sound guy (or you buddy or whever) tells you its perfect on the floor, then turn up your monitor, or just balance that soft sound.

1. keep your stage-volume in check
2. know what you´re doing (playing-wise). includes all the knowledge on dynamics and such...
3. know your equipment, and kill all extraneous noise it might create
4. hire a good engineer
5. don´t book gigs in places that have catastrophic acoustics

I got a wireless system so i could wander around the room at sound check as we do all our own sound from the stage.
I tend to EQ for the room rather than on stage now.

The key to successful live sound: A drummer who doesn't pound.


+1

Been in that sad situation many, many times. Drummer thinks he is the Hulk. Drummer angry, Drummer SMASH!

:rollno:

If someone could comment more on the EQing that'd be awesome. Like how the instruments should sit in a live mix.
We always have trouble with the low end of our guitars clashing with the bass and how the bass should be EQed related to the kick.

If someone could comment more on the EQing that'd be awesome. Like how the instruments should sit in a live mix.
We always have trouble with the low end of our guitars clashing with the bass and how the bass should be EQed related to the kick.

You need to find what you want in EQing. Most of all, experiment. if you have a spare 5 minutes in soundcheck, ask the sound tech, or someone else in your band with a long lead to go stand FOH while you play around, play a chorus, see how it sounds, ask your guy FOH how it sounds, make adjustments, and then repeat until you get what you want.

+1

Been in that sad situation many, many times. Drummer thinks he is the Hulk. Drummer angry, Drummer SMASH!

:rollno:

...and one who doesn't think its a race to finish the song first.:rollno:

Nothing to add. All very excelent suggestions.
+100000000 for the stage volume.



If someone could comment more on the EQing that'd be awesome. Like how the instruments should sit in a live mix.
We always have trouble with the low end of our guitars clashing with the bass and how the bass should be EQed related to the kick.

It depends on the type of music a lot.
Is it electro , metal , jazz or rock ?
All these style have different low end approach.
In general, the bass share the low end with the kick , the floor tom , the synth , piano , trombone/tuba/sousaphone , etc...

In metal , the kick has no low end , only attack ( because of 1/4 notes at 300BPM :smug: ) so the bass has all the place in the low end with the guitar.
In jazz , it's more "what you hear acousticaly , is what you (should) get"
In rock , the kick moves the air ( lower frequencies) the bass is on top of that. But you have to approach it differently if you don't have the subs or the PA to do that.......:hmm:

A very good thread: http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/285437/30460/0/255/#msg_285437

My 2 cents: http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/BandRant1.htm

Also relevant if you are hiring PA or on a festival: http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/BandRant2.htm

Overall, the most important thing is sound signal. If the band members ALL have a great signal going into the sound board, then you will have a great sound coming out of the speakers.

I have to agree, the drum sound and volume is usually key. Tight kick drum sound and sweet sounding snare will make the people in the audience think you guys are the shiz. This can only be accomplished if you have a great drummer, and this is like finding a perfect diamond or white rhino. Good luck with that :)

I would always have the other instruments roll off the low end on stage, and add the lows from the sound board, and presto, great sounding live band. A tighter sounding low mid punchy sound from your stage amp with only as much volume as you need to hear yourself will set you apart from a musician that knows what they are doing, and the amature.

Everyone in the band must craft "their sound" so it fist into the band's sound, not so it sounds awesome when soloed. And no one should aspire to cut through the mix. If everyone's cutting through the mix, then there is no mix! For example, that stupid smiley face graphic EQ that cuts the mids and boosts lows and highs? That's putrid in a band mix. You're boosting the sound of your bass at the lows that clash with the kick drum, and the note is lost in the clanging of the cymbals. And your vital midrange that defines YOUR sound and makes the bass sound like you instead of a generic "low end instrument"? It's toatlly cut out and lost in the mix when you do that smiley face crap.

Functional frown is better than silly smile with a graphic.... but the best way to EQ is to start flat and then cut offending frequencies rather than boosting stuff. You'll have this fight with immature guitar players too- especially those Stevie Ray Wanna-bees that run a Super Reverb at 6 with the bass on 5 or more. You might as well take the night off as that'll cover up and kill any bass sound.

Trust your sound tech. You gotta, just like you trust your drummer to play the groove, the guitarist to play their parts, etc.

Keep your stage volume as low as possible. Energy and volume are NOT synonyms. Read that stuff up above again and again, it's part of being able to play your ax.

Have good reliable gear. That doesn't mean you need esoteric or hip and trendy gear. But you gotta have stuff that works everytime. And you gotta know what it does. What happens to your sound when you nudge the bass control two notches? Don't know? Then learn your gear! Don't show up with an amp or instrument that's been intermittent, get the POS fixed!! Have the right cables to hook it all together. And not the one that you have to hold at exactly the right angle for it to work. If you don't take enough pride in your music to have the proper tools to create it, why should anyone else care about the noise you're making?

Don't hassle the sound crew. Your sound is in their hands and a tip, a beer, a sincere "Thank you" from stage, all are more likely to get your sound out to the crowd than whining, complaining, and being the prima donna jerk.

jte

I got a wireless system so i could wander around the room at sound check as we do all our own sound from the stage.
I tend to EQ for the room rather than on stage now.

this won't always help. the sound will change pretty dramatically once the room is full of people. that's why it's always good to have a sound guy handy, even if it's just a friend that knows how to follow simple directions.

this won't always help. the sound will change pretty dramatically once the room is full of people. that's why it's always good to have a sound guy handy, even if it's just a friend that knows how to follow simple directions.

In my case thats just not possible. we cant take mates to weddings etc. The only way for them to get there would be for thme to drive and we dont see any point in paying someone to do the same job that we can do (remeber, we just use vocal PA's),

I take your point about the room filling up will change the sound but this way is better than just standing on stage and thinking the mix is right.

My thoughts from experience:

Make your singer buy their own microphone and use it live and in rehearsal. The rest of us have spent small fortunes on our gear, why should they get an easy ride? Seriously, invest in a good vocal mic that they will learn how it responds to their voice and vocal style. I'd recommend the SM58 Beta, much less susceptable to feedback and more powerful. Remember, vocals are the most important thing in a band.

Tame your drummer. They all have Keith Moon syndrome from time to time, but when they finally learn to reign it in and control dynamics, it all changes for the better. I think they often play too loud trying to subconciously compete with the seemingly loud backline. But the need to be able to trust in the rest of the band.

On the subject of drums. Damping. They need to do more than just stick a blanket in the kick drum. The snare and toms create all sorts of overtones and harmonics than can create havoc through the vocal mics if you're on a small stage. A little gaffa tape goes a long way.

Feedback destroyer. Some people hate them, some love them. Used well, they do work. Can help tame those afore mentioned overtones, esp from cymbals spilling into the vocal mics.

Monitor placement. Different mic have different sweet and dead spots. A typical SM58's dead spot is directly behind, so stick the monitor there to reduce feedback. Wheras the 58 beta has dead spots roughly 60 degrees either side behind the mic and picks up sound directly behind. So place your lead singer between monitors if they use this mic. You'll be able to push the mic up much more without feedback.

EQ the back line. We usually start with just drums and bass, and get the two locked together and sounding right. Then add lead vocals. The 2 guitarist come in one at a time and eq their amps to fit in the holes. They can afford to roll of nearly all the low end to be honest, this'll clear up a lot of the mud. One of our guitarists doubles up on keyboard, so this can be tweaked to fill the same hole as his guitar as he can't play them both at the same time!

Respect one another and give space. Not a life lesson, but when someone's trying to set up and get their tone tweaked, everyone else stop playing, it's much easier to focus and hear properly when no-one else it playing. Once out gear is setup, we take it in turns to tweak, then start playing something together. The venue will thank you for this as well. It's one of those small things that separates the amateurs from the professionals. It's just impossible to get your sound right if everyone else is noodling around you.

Oh yes, lastly, practice. How many times have you seen a band play where they look a little unsure of certain songs? Just because you've nailed a tune in rehersal doens't mean it's gig ready. Nail it 10 times so you know you can play it confidently without mistakes and looking for signals. You'll enjoy it more and you can focus on putting on a good show rather than worrying about that up coming section you're not sure about.

I got a wireless system so i could wander around the room at sound check as we do all our own sound from the stage.
I tend to EQ for the room rather than on stage now.

Dave I've been considering going wireless for a little while now. For one, I haven't been able to find cables that last very long and also to get a better grasp of what everything sounds like out front. I am curious though what surprised you the most when you did go out front?

The singer can go with a wireless mike and start a set from in the back of the room.

I think it's a lot harder to sing whilst critiquing the sound than it is to play and critique the sound. Better that a picker do it. (Or get a wireless midi, and roam the venue with a KeyTar :-)

Would love to hear from the older pros and especially bassists who have also been sound guys. Even serious suggestions about what NOT to do could help.[/QUOTE]

well....first I have to admit that the headlining band mostly always has the best sound guy gear etc. They do this on purpose. The opening band get's the trial and error scenario alot and the venue purposely wants you to see and hear the best for the headlining band. You see this at huge shows mainly. I've had band's push out the house sound guy bring a digital mixer lay it on top of everything and go to town. Lights and effects to! ever notice how they sound check the headliner first then go down the line to the first band? Do you think they really save all the settings for 4+ bands? I always tip the sound guy at the end of the show, so if I play there again he will remember us and hook us up. Have one person from the band step out into the room and have a listenn during sound check and have him speak with the soung guy. One great reason to pay someone a little cash to be your guitar tech etc. and come along to the show is to do that instead of a playing musician. Record all your shows listen to what needs to be worked on within your band, somebody is always to loud etc. I think you should have the band instruments set up so you can hear each other on the stage good enough. Let the sound guy amplify that sound, remember people stand in the back for a reason, and thats why others stand right up front. For the bass I put everything on 12:00 then I cut knobs instead off boost them usually. Have someone play your bass while you go out into the crowd. It's tough!

I might head down to home depot and nail together a a wooden block to put me and my guitarists amps on. I think I saw someone do that on here a while back, and it doubled as a storage compartment which was really clever/useful.

But I've learned from watching so many college bands with bassists whose amps are constantly clipping, that the sound of the miced cab and/or DI through the PA will sound infinitely better than your speakers trying to fill the place. Just from messing around at home, there is a huge difference in the sound of your cab when it you are even a foot off from directly in line with the speakers. If you mic your cab like I plan to, you do NOT want people to hear the extra muddy sound of being off center of the speakers (which 90% of the crowd will hear if you are using the cab to overpower everything). You point the speakers at you (quite specifically, your head, do whatever it takes, stand the cab on a friggin chair if you have to, unless of course you have no PA support...then point it at the crowd once you have it EQd as if it were pointing at your face), then rely on the mic to pick up exactly what you hear and convey that to the crowd. It would seem that the mic will sound even better because I also notice that everything seems to sound beefier (but not muddier) from really close to the speakers. Similar to how good headphones will make everything sound beefier than an actual sound system just because they're very direct, there's no room for the sound to alter before it hits your ears.

Dave I've been considering going wireless for a little while now. For one, I haven't been able to find cables that last very long and also to get a better grasp of what everything sounds like out front. I am curious though what surprised you the most when you did go out front?

Mainly how good my bass sounds :-)

My Schroeders can sound a bit middy on stage and that means quite loud. I always used to turn it down, lower the mids and maybe boost the lows so it sounded good from where i was standing. But if i just leave the EQ more or less flat i still get a nice enough sound on stage but out front the lows are more pronounced and the mids die off a bit leaving a nice smooth, full tone. And at some venues it seems to get louder the further back i go.
It was just something i hadnt thought about before and evne if we dont sound check i know not to mess with the EQ too much as out front the tones is usually just right.

It also helps us to keep the guitars down. Im sure a lot of people can judge how a mix might sound out front from the stage but we couldnt untill i started telling them to turn down.
Not having anyone at the gig that can tell us how the mix sounds can be a problem so whiel its not ideal this has helped us keep the volumes down and get a better mix.

Have your players realize that in some situations they have to sacrifice good sound on stage for the greater good of the foh mix.

Mainly how good my bass sounds :-)

My Schroeders can sound a bit middy on stage and that means quite loud. I always used to turn it down, lower the mids and maybe boost the lows so it sounded good from where i was standing. But if i just leave the EQ more or less flat i still get a nice enough sound on stage but out front the lows are more pronounced and the mids die off a bit leaving a nice smooth, full tone. And at some venues it seems to get louder the further back i go.
It was just something i hadnt thought about before and evne if we dont sound check i know not to mess with the EQ too much as out front the tones is usually just right.

It also helps us to keep the guitars down. Im sure a lot of people can judge how a mix might sound out front from the stage but we couldnt untill i started telling them to turn down.
Not having anyone at the gig that can tell us how the mix sounds can be a problem so whiel its not ideal this has helped us keep the volumes down and get a better mix.

We've done a couple of gigs recently and are rapidly arriving at the conclusion that the best way to go for all but the smallest of venues is to put everything thru a decent PA. That would allows us to keep out stage volume down while getting a good mix on stage and out front.

Played out for over a decade. With house sound and a house soundguys all you can do is be respectable to him and pray.

IME nothing you really do will make a difference in if he gives you FKNOBs or does an awesome job as a sound tech. A proffessional will make an effort to make you sound good. If it's some kid who thinks he's a sound guy and just a knob twiddler, then pray some more. Not only are you relying on his judgement, but his ears as well. Sadly most people just don't have an ear for good live sound. Most just think horrendously loud = good sound.


Also, I think giving a tip is a waste of money. Done it many times, never seemed to matter.

The best solution to consistantly good sound is to bring your own sound when possilble.

I used to have a regular PA and brought that to small gigs, got us better sound than at the big gigs with house sound often.

This is just one of the many reason our band went with bose L1's At small and medium gigs we use those, just plop them down and tell the sound guy to take a break. Good sound every time.

If you are going to be playing through house sound and have the clout, the best thing you can do is to bring your own soundtech.

Have your players realize that in some situations they have to sacrifice good sound on stage for the greater good of the foh mix.

Really good advice. In my experience, it takes a long time for most people to understand this. Bass players especially need to realize it takes longer for the low frequencies to develop when they leave the cabinet. If you're on a small stage, much of your sound will tend to blow right past you. If you turn it up so you can 'hear it', chances are the audience is getting overwhelmed.

I suggest using a sound man you can really trust. He'll make sure the crowd's digging it, even if it sounds less than ideal up on stage. An added benefit is, you'll be more relaxed and ready to cope when problems come up. I recently played a gig where there was no stage volume at all, except the drums. Everything was run direct, and all the musicians had in-ear monitors. In the middle of the set, my in-ears cut out, and I had to play 'blind'. Thankfully, I didn't panic. I knew the material well, could hear the drums, and made it through without a problem.

Bass players especially need to realize it takes longer for the low frequencies to develop when they leave the cabinet.

I'm no expert but I'm not sure this is a fact. Perhaps Bill Fitzmaurice or one of the other experts in acoustical science will stop by.

I'm certainly no acoustic scientist, so maybe I'm stating it wrong. I have talked to plenty of bass players after the gig who said they couldn't hear themselves on stage but they blended perfectly from where I was standing. I've also been to many shows where the bass drowned out everything else. Invariably, the bassist would say 'it sounded pretty good to me' if we talked about it after.

Sound-wave physics aside, the point I'm trying to make is, being a member of a band often means sacrifice. You can't always expect to hear your music as if you're listening to your own personal stereo. Most times, what you hear on stage has little to do with what your audience is hearing. The sooner we as musicians are able to come to grips with that, the better.

I'm no expert but I'm not sure this is a fact. Perhaps Bill Fitzmaurice or one of the other experts in acoustical science will stop by.
Bill has already spoken on it. Myth. His explanation was, "If that were true, headphones wouldn't work." Can't argue that.

I'm no expert either, but I don't think it's because bass frequencies take longer to, "develop."

Bass frequencies behave differently than the other frequencies, some room/stages will empasize them and make them boomy others won't help at all.

IME bass guitar takes less reinforcement to be heard out front and because of that can be difficult to mix front of house.

I've seen three bands live recently, that I loved the tone of their bass guitars on sound check...through just their amps and I could hear it really good out front, once they miced up the cab and put them in front of house they got buried. IMO, it would have been better had they miced the bass for just a little support and let the bass rigs turn up a little on stage. Keep in mind these were smallish to mid sized clubs.

IME most clubs have way to much PA and you really might get away with just using the PA for the vocals and letting the amps be the FOH for the club as well. Usually ends up sounding better, everything through one PA usually sounds like mush to me.

Nothing to add. All very excelent suggestions.
+100000000 for the stage volume.





It depends on the type of music a lot.
Is it electro , metal , jazz or rock ?
All these style have different low end approach.
In general, the bass share the low end with the kick , the floor tom , the synth , piano , trombone/tuba/sousaphone , etc...

In metal , the kick has no low end , only attack ( because of 1/4 notes at 300BPM :smug: ) so the bass has all the place in the low end with the guitar.
In jazz , it's more "what you hear acousticaly , is what you (should) get"
In rock , the kick moves the air ( lower frequencies) the bass is on top of that. But you have to approach it differently if you don't have the subs or the PA to do that.......:hmm:

excellent post.

another horrible situation i find myself in quite often is - extremely small bar, so all the PA is used for is vocals. this means its the battle of the amps. when nobody (besides vocals) is using a PA, you have to be smart about amp placement. i remember years ago i had my ampeg 2x10 combo in this bar that is litterally 1.5x the size of my kitchen. i figured, this things got balls, ill put it in the back against the wall to save space :rollno:. by the end of the night all of the controls were dimed, and even then not only did i sound terrible on stage, i could barley be heard offstage. i learned my lesson about "i cant be heard, you turn down" that night, and it also got me thinking about room acoustics and such. nowadays i try my best to get my cabs near ear level, helps you sound a lot more clear, and not to mention gives you a lot more headroom.

but then in the big ass clubs with the house PA, the best you can do is give him a good sound to work with. dont bother tipping him, if he knows HOW to give you a good sound, he will. you are at his mercy.

and another thing about giving everyone their own spot in the mix..this comes in to play depending on how many people are in your band. in my 3 piece funk/rock band, theres space for everyone regardless of EQ (usually :p)

be in key..

I'm no expert either, but I don't think it's because bass frequencies take longer to, "develop."

Bass frequencies behave differently than the other frequencies, some room/stages will empasize them and make them boomy others won't help at all.

IME bass guitar takes less reinforcement to be heard out front and because of that can be difficult to mix front of house.

I've seen three bands live recently, that I loved the tone of their bass guitars on sound check...through just their amps and I could hear it really good out front, once they miced up the cab and put them in front of house they got buried. IMO, it would have been better had they miced the bass for just a little support and let the bass rigs turn up a little on stage. Keep in mind these were smallish to mid sized clubs.

IME most clubs have way to much PA and you really might get away with just using the PA for the vocals and letting the amps be the FOH for the club as well. Usually ends up sounding better, everything through one PA usually sounds like mush to me.

Again I'm sure y'all know better but to me the great carrott for mic'ing everything is the opportunity to keep everybody's stage volume down. If the stage volume is down and the guitar is buried in the mix out front, micing it allows the band to adjust the audience with turning anything up on stage. And that's a very attractive advantage to my way of thinking.

great thread. subscribed

What would you suggest when no PA (except for vocals) is available?

Remember that there are always always variables.I am a bassist but I help engineer my records and engineered my radio show and performed sound duties and everything is always changing.example 2 identical mics same board all knobs set the same.different sound,maybe one channel on board is weaker gauge of cable different,singers with different mic technique.You must always allow yourself ample time to set up and adapt.It is a learn by doing.I dont know everything so when I was younger I would work as an intern and learn on someone elses dime Good luck

I think a common misconception is that the kick is the lowest thing in the mix...in fact the notes of the bass will extend far lower than the kick will be present. If you can get a nice low punch out of the kick at 100hz that's not bad, but it certainly isn't a low e, or low b for those of you who venture that far. Generally if you can cut a little out of the bass where the kick is sitting they will lock together better. And if you are in fact mic'ing everything, besides the bass and kick you can high pass everything at around 100hz. This will clear up the real low end of your mix. To avoid making this a really long response, from there it all depends on the instrumentation of your band. Also...the best way to get a good pa mix is to have a good stage mix. I find it is often guitar players who feel that they get the best tone with the amp as loud as possible...well, that certainly sounds like a bad guitar player to me. Monitors exist for a reason. stand in your spot, have the drummer play...turn up so you can hear yourself mixed well with him. have the guitar player turn up next so that he can still hear both of you from where he is. if you want more of anything...that's why that monitor is right in front of you, or if you're lucky...in your ear.

Pretty much anything under 100hz should be suppressed. Room ambience should cover that.
250hz, approx, will give you that low thump.
Mids, I usually drop them a bit.
1250hz is where you get some string definition.

If you lack bottom, don't turn up the bass, turn up the volume. In a live setting, you generally have to play with a little more treble than you think you want.

In all the years I've played, I seldom have a good sound on stage. I always try to walk out in the middle of the room and set my tones there. There are rooms where the sound is pretty even, but my rule of thumb is - if I can hear it perfect, the audience can't.

Unless the old master has a 10watt combo and your playing to 300 people with only a vocal PA :hiding:

who plays to 300 people through 1 vocal p.a.....

who plays to 300 people through 1 vocal p.a.....

We have. A few time
Saying that these sort of gigs are parties and we are only required to make enough noise to fill the dance floor, not a room filled with 300 people. And our Vocal PA is 450watts per side, well loud enough as we rely on our back line for the main source of music.

That reply of mine meant that no matter how experienced you are, its not always practical to turn down, especially if you are underpowered. I think you need to quote the quote i was replying to to make sense of it.

who plays to 300 people through 1 vocal p.a.....

In 1968 I saw Cream play a baseball stadium with vocals only thru the PA. Just saying.

Band Performance tips for good live sound ....We as musicians and performers are the FIRST link in the chain of good live sound, and some bands clearly are doing something more as musicians and as a band to sound good live. Things that do not depend on gear..... So what are some things these great live bands do, to help achieve a good live sound?

Would love to hear from the older pros and especially bassists who have also been sound guys.....

1) Strive for good groove, taste / tone / feel. Regardless of what instrument you play. Say more with less notes.

2) Play to serve the song, serve the band... not to serve yourself. Your audience is there to hear and enjoy everything, not just you.

3) "Play the holes louder that the notes" music has rests and all instruments have quiet time, sometimes in each measure of each song. You don't have to make sound continually.

4) Amplified instruments - try sidewashing your amp (position your rig stage left or stage right, pointed toward the center of the stage, rather than toward the audience). I know, you like to show off that cool new / vintage gear. But wouldn't you rather sound good in the room (as well as on stage)?

5) Understand that what you hear, 6 (or insert any number here) feet from your bass rig, is not going to be perfectly replicated at every listening position in that indoor / outdoor venue.

Pretty much anything under 100hz should be suppressed. Room ambience should cover that.
250hz, approx, will give you that low thump.
Mids, I usually drop them a bit.
1250hz is where you get some string definition.

250 is WAY above thump. For instance that's where all the garbage is in the vocals owing to the proximity effects of the mics. You do need some in there, but many cabinets have a hump around 160, which can mess things up. (My PA subs are crossed over at 85Hz. If I turn them off, there's no thump and no balls.)

If you lack bottom, don't turn up the bass, turn up the volume. In a live setting, you generally have to play with a little more treble than you think you want.

When you turn up a PA mix or a bass amp that's bottom light, the result will often seem even more bottom light.

Most players are already playing with more treble than they think they should, as the narrow dispersion of their cabinet (that is aimed at their knees and at some poor guy in the front row) causes the highs to shoot right past the player, well beneath his ears.

In all the years I've played, I seldom have a good sound on stage. I always try to walk out in the middle of the room and set my tones there. There are rooms where the sound is pretty even, but my rule of thumb is - if I can hear it perfect, the audience can't.

I concur.

Wow. There's such a variety of advice on this thread. o_o I'm going to pick and choose a few to try every week when I play at church and see which sounds best. :D Trail and error seems to work best when it comes to sound (for me), cuz there is just way too many variables at any one place, and way too many unknowns.

Thanks for all the advice that has been posted up here! Its going to help. :)

Most players are already playing with more treble than they think they should, as the narrow dispersion of their cabinet (that is aimed at their knees and at some poor guy in the front row) causes the highs to shoot right past the player, well beneath his ears.



Agreed. Im very aware of too much treble as i play with a pick most of the set and find the D and G can get quite bright. I tend to set the tweeter almost off in my cab and never boost the highs on the amp. That another reason i like to go out front at sound check so i can hear, with fresh ears how it sounds. works for me.

One other tip (not sure if its been mentioned) is to leave the EQ, especially the high freq alone during the latter part of the gig. Due to ear fatigue (i think its called that) i find that my sound starts to sound a bit muffled by the end of the night. I used to tweak the High EQ to help with this until it was pointed out that my sound really hadn't changed, my ears were just getting tired.

I've done sound for many a "punk show" all ages / young bands.

Stage volume is key. Just cause you have a Marshall does not mean turn it to 11.

If I'm only using a vocal pa, I try to "EQ stack" and set the instraments. Drums, bass, vocals and guitars. I will sometimes tell the band to eq this or that. If they don't wanna do it that's fine. I'm good at what I do and they can hear it with other bands on the bill. I can get a damn good sound if the band is halfway decent.

If I'm using a full pa I still eq stack and set volume. I set it loud then bring it back down. I try to eq each guitar to have its own "space". Kick drum I eq by the type of music. Metal = treble and Rock = bass. I try to mix the opener as well as possible, mixing on the fly for later bands and giving the headliner a quick soundcheck.

This is just my 2 cents: I will tell you though that I'm sick of bands using ipods as samplers / backing tracks. Half the time the **** never works and they blame me. I'm also sick of these pussy L.A. / Hollywood bands making hearts with their hands and singing to 15 year old girls. Grow some balls. On the other hand they are bringing live / real music back to the mainstream and "dance" scene. Oh yeah, and stop wearing girl pants. We've already had the 80's and look how that turned out.

I'm a FOH engineer and a bassist. I sort of browsed through this thread and I noticed a couple of things that I wanted to comment on. One thing I saw a couple people say is, "ask someone in the audience how it sounds." If you're going to do this you really need to be sure that your friend in the audience has a good ear and understanding of live sound. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the bands drunk friend yell "turn up the guitar!", when the guitar really needed to go way down.

In following with this, you really need to put some trust in the engineer and communicate with him/her as much as possible. I've noticed a lot of people are skeptical of house engineers because of this or that bad experience. If the engineer tells you to turn something up or down, just do it. This may sound a little weird but, even if you know that the engineer isn't so good you should listen them. The reason for this is that, by going against the engineer, you're just throwing them off more.

If you notice an engineer that appears to set the sound at the beginning of the set, and then stops paying attention until the set is over, I don't see anything wrong with complaining to the club or the promoter. An inexperienced engineer is one thing, but an engineer who doesn't want to be there will ruin every show.

I'd also like to repeat something that a lot people have said already. Know how to keep your volume at reasonable level as a band. Guitarists and drummers have the most trouble with this. Drummers need to practice to get this right. Guitarists are luckier. All they need to do is get rid of those awful half stacks and buy a nice combo. Half stacks are seriously completely unnecessary these days.

The equipment you choose and how you use it will also have a big effect on your live show. I'm not saying you have to blow a lot of money on fancy gear. In fact, I've noticed a lot of bands with really fancy gear some how manage to get really terrible sounds. Here are two really easy things you can do that don't cost any money.

1. Leave the Sonic Maximizer's at home. I know I'm probably going to get flamed by people who like them. The SM's will pretty much always drop you out of the mix or make your tone really overpowering for the rest of the band. If your guitarist has a half stack AND a Sonic Maximizer... my condolences.

2. If you're playing smaller venues (50-200 cap), try to convince your drummer to use some darker sounding cymbals. If your drummer has really bright cymbals and wants to mellow them out they can bury them in the yard for a couple weeks (seriously). You'd be amazed how much better you'll be able to hear everything onstage if your drummer tones down those really bright cymbals.

Finally make sure you have a good sound check song ready that utilizes every audio source on stage. If you have four vocals mics for example, make sure you pick something where everyone sings.

That's the end of my rant for now. I hope it helps some people. Looking back at what I've written here I've noticed something. I may be biased but when working with rock bands the bassist is usually the last member of the band to create trouble for me in the mix.

be in key..
I think that this is a good point that might have gotten glossed over. A good instrument that stays in tune from song to song and a good, fast tuner are really musts for gigging. I've seen too many bands sound just a little out of tune, and it ruins the whole experience.

I recently played a gig where there was no stage volume at all, except the drums. Everything was run direct, and all the musicians had in-ear monitors. In the middle of the set, my in-ears cut out, and I had to play 'blind'. Thankfully, I didn't panic. I knew the material well, could hear the drums, and made it through without a problem.

Props to you for making it through. But this post goes into my "Why I Hate In-Ears" file as well as my "Why I Always Have An Amp Onstage" file.

Not really a 'sound' tip, but a good idea when contsructing a set list is use use the various keys of the songs to build and release tension.

Go up to build, down to release.

Props to you for making it through. But this post goes into my "Why I Hate In-Ears" file as well as my "Why I Always Have An Amp Onstage" file.

I've had the same thing happen when using an amp... it's how you recover that matters.

im coming at this thread with a totally different perspective than others, so here goes.

1. dont play rock music. its tasteless. :) just kidding

2. be able to adapt to problems or deficiencies. ive never had sound problems on stage, or been thrown off by problems in FOH/monitorworld. maybe im just good. :o

on a more serious note:

i play in clubs in a major US market. bringing your own PA is a laughable notion for us. not even on the radar. this is typical. you get 10 minutes to set up your gear, quick hey-hey...or sometimes a soundcheck before the doors open. so what i say, is coming from that stand point, not the "we play in the sticks and use our own PA and soundcheck for an hour" standpoint. also, i play in an indie-electro type band. we have a laptop running ableton drums, and sequences...not an ipod. we run bass direct and guitar direct and just hand the soundman a snake with all the stuff labeled on it. soundmen love us. its easier for them to mix, they dont have to deal with stage bleed, this makes you sound a lot cleaner in the room when everything is coming from a single source instead of two.

if where youre playing sounds bad, because of PA or soundman or acoustics or whatever...it dosnt matter what you do, it will sound bad. if you play a place with good PA, soundman and acoustics...its up to you to sound good.

not having a drummer makes me happy. not having an amp on stage makes me happy. all of the above makes the soundman happy. never had problem one, and its quick, legit, clean, and good.

and if anyone in the audience ever comes up to us after a show and says "you know running everything direct sounds bad, you should have amps on stage" i will kiss all your butts on the courthouse steps. you guys know im right. :o

it all comes down to the soundguy whether you have an amp on stage or not. obviously if you have a drummer and rehearse in a regular ol rehersal room ok, you need an amp. :o

also, somebody said singer should get his own mic...in my experience, this is bad and causes soundmen to bitch because they already have thier stages/boards set-up for their own sm58.

also, somebody said singer should get his own mic...in my experience, this is bad and causes soundmen to bitch because they already have their stages/boards set-up for their own sm58.

This is somewhat true. I work in a small club with a so so PA and rough acoustics on a regular basis (I mostly do mobile stuff otherwise). In that place we really have trouble with people bringing their own mics because the graphics are set to prevent feedback with the Sennheiser mics they have there. A lot of other places I don't mind if people bring their own mic. The best option is probably to have a good mic that you like AND bring a bag on those little disinfectant wipes. If the sound person asks you to use the house mic just do that and hit it with a disinfectant wipe because house mics are a breeding ground for germs.