Ok, so I'm about to start a 5 string bass with
a 32" scale.
What should I do to get a nice string tension?

Depends how you define nice. Assuming you're out to get a fairly normal tension, similar to a 34"/35" in a shorter instrument, you need to increase the gauge of the strings (The increased weight is what makes the difference). That's really the only way to do it. If anyone suggests any headstock design changes, through the body stringing, special bridges, or a certain brand of strings, just ignore them. It's physics. Some of these things may have other effects that they misinterpret as an increase in tension, but they're not.

-Nick

Make a very stable, strong neck.

you get a artist 3200 from www.unicornbass.se :D

Make a very stable, strong neck.

A good Idea, but I don't think it'll increase the tension. ;)

you get a artist 3200 from www.unicornbass.se :D

When you take your car to a mechanic and ask if there's a way to make it run better, does he tell you to go buy a new one?

I hope not.

Doesn't matter if they make good basses or not. He's asking in the luthier's corner how he'd make a bass with good string tension.

He's not in the Basses forum asking what he should buy.

-Nick

Arx,
I understand that the tension is affected only inside the scale length area,
but there are so many basses out there with medium to very short scales,
from Fodera Garrison 33" to some 28-30" basses, that must have some sort of improvement to insure a high tension strings, don't they?
Is it all up to strings weight?

Think of it like trying to tune your bass to a standard tuning with a capo on the second fret. To get the note low enough you would have to slack down the tension significantly. If you want the tension to be reasonably close to "typical" then you will need to have heavier gage strings to accomplish that. Arx is spot on.

Given a consistent scale length and string tension a heavier gage string will vibrate slower due to it's mass. You aren't trying to over tension the strings. You are just trying to get them taught enough not to be flopping around.

Greg N

Arx,
I understand that the tension is affected only inside the scale length area,
but there are so many basses out there with medium to very short scales,
from Fodera Garrison 33" to some 28-30" basses, that must have some sort of improvement to insure a high tension strings, don't they?
Is it all up to strings weight?

Yep.

you can set it up with looser strings in mind, possibly a slightly higher action (it might not feel as high, since the strings will be easier to fret) Make sure your fretting is good, since looser strings might be a bit more likely to hit the frets and buzz, etc.

Really there's nothing special to make a short scale bass good that wouldn't be equally well applied to a long scale.

I think the "loose B string" everyone talks about is either in their heads (it may have setup problems, but tension isn't it), or they're playing in the guitar shop with a bass that they've tuned to itself, and is flat all around.

Just build it the best you can, set it up well, and you should do just fine.

If the necessarily looser strings don't work with your playing, find yourself some extra fat strings. Maybe you could even get an F# string and use one string fatter all the way up. I don't know for sure though, it might end up too tight.

slightly off topic, but i would like to know why people think that stringing the string through the body makes it feel tighter. in my mind it would work the opposite way, as there would be some extra string that would be stretching, in fact making it floppier if it actually makes a difference.

so for any supporters of the theory, hows it supposed to work?

im curious as i am making a 5 stringer and im wondering if i should mod the bridge to put the strings through the body

I have owned a lot of short and medium scale basses, at a wide range of price point and build quality. I have also gotten into the whole string tension debate on here many, many times. IMO and IME the construction of the bass and the construction of the strings both have a massive impact on the tension of the strings during the vibration cycle. There will always be people on here, who took a physics class once, who insist that the only factors affecting tension are length and diameter. They are thinking in a very limited way, as though all strings had equal flexibility or damping qualities, or as though a bass made of pieces of wood bolted together was a perfect rigid plane. But as a string is plucked, it changes tension. It will change tension during that time to a greater or lesser degree depending on the resonant qualities of all of the connected parts in relation to each other.

Unfortunately there is no magic formula. Even building a super-rigid neck-through bass may not necessarily give you the desired results, as every piece of wood has different resonant/damping qualities, especially in relation to different strings.

That's why a 32" from a highly-skilled artisan luthier may have a better chance of having "good tension" compared to an average production bass. They both use similar materials, but the artisan luthier spends a lot of time carefully selecting woods, learning their subtleties, and making careful combination choices while building; whereas a production bass is made out of whatever shipment of lumber met the specs closely enough that day.

I'm not pretending that a 30" scale can be identical in every way to a 35" scale. But I am saying there is a great deal more to the equation than merely scale length and string diameter.

I have owned a lot of short and medium scale basses, at a wide range of price point and build quality. I have also gotten into the whole string tension debate on here many, many times. IMO and IME the construction of the bass and the construction of the strings both have a massive impact on the tension of the strings during the vibration cycle. There will always be people on here, who took a physics class once, who insist that the only factors affecting tension are length and diameter. They are thinking in a very limited way, as though all strings had equal flexibility or damping qualities, or as though a bass made of pieces of wood bolted together was a perfect rigid plane. But as a string is plucked, it changes tension. It will change tension during that time to a greater or lesser degree depending on the resonant qualities of all of the connected parts in relation to each other.

Unfortunately there is no magic formula. Even building a super-rigid neck-through bass may not necessarily give you the desired results, as every piece of wood has different resonant/damping qualities, especially in relation to different strings.

That's why a 32" from a highly-skilled artisan luthier may have a better chance of having "good tension" compared to an average production bass. They both use similar materials, but the artisan luthier spends a lot of time carefully selecting woods, learning their subtleties, and making careful combination choices while building; whereas a production bass is made out of whatever shipment of lumber met the specs closely enough that day.

I'm not pretending that a 30" scale can be identical in every way to a 35" scale. But I am saying there is a great deal more to the equation than merely scale length and string diameter.

And what effect does this alleged difference in dynamic tension have on anything? (A serious question, not being an ass this time :smug:)

Also, how would you observe this effect?

-Nick

Yes very possible. Have a super solid neck (graphite or grahite reinforced. My Jack read is a laminate neck with purpleheart stringers.) Also have a good breaking angle across the nut. Also have a neckthough design or a very very good neck/body joint.

Also I must say that these don't affect tension in the least bit, BUT they make the string seem less flabby (and I am going to make an assumption that this is really what your after.)

The only way to keep good tension technically is to a) have a longer scale length b) have a fatter string c) have strings that are high tension (stiff strings like some falwounds have this effect too without having higer string tension though.)

I have owned a lot of short and medium scale basses, at a wide range of price point and build quality. I have also gotten into the whole string tension debate on here many, many times. IMO and IME the construction of the bass and the construction of the strings both have a massive impact on the tension of the strings during the vibration cycle. There will always be people on here, who took a physics class once, who insist that the only factors affecting tension are length and diameter. They are thinking in a very limited way, as though all strings had equal flexibility or damping qualities, or as though a bass made of pieces of wood bolted together was a perfect rigid plane. But as a string is plucked, it changes tension. It will change tension during that time to a greater or lesser degree depending on the resonant qualities of all of the connected parts in relation to each other.

Unfortunately there is no magic formula. Even building a super-rigid neck-through bass may not necessarily give you the desired results, as every piece of wood has different resonant/damping qualities, especially in relation to different strings.

That's why a 32" from a highly-skilled artisan luthier may have a better chance of having "good tension" compared to an average production bass. They both use similar materials, but the artisan luthier spends a lot of time carefully selecting woods, learning their subtleties, and making careful combination choices while building; whereas a production bass is made out of whatever shipment of lumber met the specs closely enough that day.

I'm not pretending that a 30" scale can be identical in every way to a 35" scale. But I am saying there is a great deal more to the equation than merely scale length and string diameter.


Nicely put! It´s not that easy to narrow down one or two factors (no pun intended) that governs the process. Nowadays we build lots of 32" basses. It seems that these are very popular and we have NO problems with floppy B-strings whatsoever. Experiment yourself! Do not go up in gauge, go up in quality instead and THEN see if you need heavier strings. On the fuzz guitarshow, gothenburg we had a 3200 series 4-string bass tuned down to B with a .100 string of our own brand and that was very composed. Try different stuff but buy very good strings.

DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a commercial spot for us in any way. If taken so, i appologise.

Make a very stable, strong neck.

i would imaging a neck through would help

Everyone should try and keep things straight though... There's no reason a low tension string can't be nice to play, and when I say that the only way to significantly increase tension on a given scale is to increase string weight (Higher tension strings in the same guage can only do it by being heavier) I'm not trying to imply that all the other build techniques can't make the instrument more playable, but in a pure sense they're not increasing tension.

Hi Shai-Ga, I have a 30" bass that I use "regular" (medium-light 34" scale) strings on. If you look in the classifieds, there's a "basslet" for sale that uses regular strings on a 19" scale. I think that your 32" scale bass will sound and feel just fine, no special accommodations necessary. It will feel a little different than a 34" scale, but I am assuming if you wanted 34", you would build it that way :) Like several other posters have mentioned, you can just bump the string gauge up a notch or two, if you like, to find a comfortable tension, or just use a set that's designed for short-scale bass. Lots and lots of bassists from Paul McCartney to Jack Bruce to Stanley Clarke have made wonderful music on short scale basses.

bongomania - I believe you have confused physical string tension (what is required to tune it to pitch) with relative 'stiffness' (the feel of a string when plucked and/or fretted)

I have found that most players who are looking for increased tension are actually looking for increased string stiffness

all the best,

R

in addition to heavy gauge get hex core (in flats if possible). Also when buying strings the amount of increase in gauge should increase as the strings get larger. Ex:

34"/35" 32"
40 43
60 65
80 85/90
100 110 or heavier

If you can't get good tension, as a last resort I would make it a tenor bass & tune it C G D A like wooten does. ;)

in addition to heavy gauge get hex core (in flats if possible). Also when buying strings the amount of increase in gauge should increase as the strings get larger. Ex:

34"/35" 32"
40 43
60 65
80 85/90
100 110 or heavier

If you can't get good tension, as a last resort I would make it a tenor bass & tune it C G D A like wooten does. ;)

I believe the hex core and flats will mainly give you a stiffer, less flexible string, and not actually higher tension.

He's doing a 5 string, I think.

Doesn't matter really. 32 isn't all that much shorter than 34 that I'd expect any problems.

bongomania - I believe you have confused physical string tension (what is required to tune it to pitch) with relative 'stiffness' (the feel of a string when plucked and/or fretted)

I have found that most players who are looking for increased tension are actually looking for increased string stiffness

all the best,

R


I'm not sure I get the meaning of stiffness when talking about a string. I mean, a string is like a rope, you can talk about the stiffness of its material (mechanic propety), and probably about it's ability to bend.
Are you referring to one of these?
Can you tell a bit more about the difference between tension and stiffness?

I've got two main problems that lead me to build a 32" instrument:

1.I want a small body shape for the bass. (very small)
2.I hold the bass very high.

So in this case, a longer scale makes it impossible to reach the lower frets.

And what effect does this alleged difference in dynamic tension have on anything? (A serious question, not being an ass this time :smug:) Also, how would you observe this effect?

The witness points of the string are both attached to flexible objects. Granted, the bass is only minimally flexible compared to the string, but it does flex. Vibration is a sign of flexion, however minimal. Even if that sounds too outlandish, we can probably agree that the bass vibrates.

One piece of the puzzle: As it vibrates, it has wave qualities just like a string. Those waves are caused by the plucking of the string- yet the bass itself is not "tuned" in a manner that would necessarily reinforce the uninterrupted, unmodulated, undamped vibration of the string at any given note. Because of that, the vibrations of the bass and the string can interfere with (modulate, resonate, etc.) each other via the witness points. IMO this causes some basses and strings (in combination) to do a poor job of projecting a clean fundamental and second harmonic- especially noticeable to us at those low, slow wavelengths.

Another piece of the puzzle: As the bass vibrates, the witness points vibrate, making their tension variable. Granted it's a microscopic variation, but my thought is that it's just enough to cause an audible difference in the clarity of a low note.

I have personally observed (what seemed to be) these effects with my own basses. One bass may have a "floppy low B" with a string widely praised for its "stiffness" yet not have a floppy low B with a less-stiff string at a lighter gauge. Another time I had three 32" scale basses at once and strung them all with the same strings and tuned them the same. Each was setup "well" and similarly. Yet they each had different-sounding "focus" on the low E. One of them not only sounded "out of focus", it actually felt a bit floppier to play. Again this was with identical new strings. So what was the variable? The bass construction!

Even if my hypotheses about vibrating witness points etc. could be shown to be wrong, the fact (as I observed it) was that the bass construction was a clear variable in the vibrating qualities of the string. I hope that also answers the question of whether I was confusing "pure tension" with "feel". :) I don't think the pure definition of string tension in a static sense is the only factor at play here.

I'm not sure I get the meaning of stiffness when talking about a string. I mean, a string is like a rope, you can talk about the stiffness of its material (mechanic propety), and probably about it's ability to bend.
Are you referring to one of these?
Can you tell a bit more about the difference between tension and stiffness?

Tension - The force the string exerts on its anchor points when tuned to pitch. Governed by very simple rules of physics, and is constant if the string, nut-to-bridge length, and desired frequency is constant.

Stiffness (or dynamic tension) - The force the string exerts on the anchor points or finger when displaced from equilibrium. Can be different for the same strings mounted in different ways, because the parts of the string beyond the nut and bridge can still affect stiffness (by expanding or contracting).

I believe a good way to improve string "stiffness" in a short scale is to use locking nuts and a bridge with as little excess string as possible. This is probably what a string-thru bridge attempts to do, by putting so much pressure on the bridge that it is effectively clamped in place, but a headless tuning system would probably achieve this as well, if not better.

The best word for this is feel, which is the product of static tension, support system stiffness at each frequency, string stiffness at each frequency and probably something else I have haven't considered.

Alex

I'm not sure I get the meaning of stiffness when talking about a string. I mean, a string is like a rope, you can talk about the stiffness of its material (mechanic propety), and probably about it's ability to bend.
Are you referring to one of these?
Can you tell a bit more about the difference between tension and stiffness?

I've got two main problems that lead me to build a 32" instrument:

1.I want a small body shape for the bass. (very small)
2.I hold the bass very high.

So in this case, a longer scale makes it impossible to reach the lower frets.

Stiffness is the flexibility of the string. How resistant it is to bending when it's not under tension. IMO this doesn't matter much at all since the amount of flex under normal playing is so small, but a lot of people seem to think it does. I might just be less picky or something.

Tension is the amount of actual force tightening the string, and will decide how much force it takes for a given deflection of the string. It'll affect how much energy the strings vibration has, so will probably affect sustain and the relative amounts of the harmonics.

If you're willing to get used to it, there's not really much problem with lower tension. you can't play as hard before your strings rattle on the frets, but you also don't have to play as hard to get the same volume. You'll probably get a different sound, but who knows, maybe you'll even prefer it.

-Nick

Tension - The force the string exerts on its anchor points when tuned to pitch. Governed by very simple rules of physics, and is constant if the string, nut-to-bridge length, and desired frequency is constant.

Stiffness (or dynamic tension) - The force the string exerts on the anchor points or finger when displaced from equilibrium. Can be different for the same strings mounted in different ways, because the parts of the string beyond the nut and bridge can still affect stiffness (by expanding or contracting).

I believe a good way to improve string "stiffness" in a short scale is to use locking nuts and a bridge with as little excess string as possible. This is probably what a string-thru bridge attempts to do, by putting so much pressure on the bridge that it is effectively clamped in place, but a headless tuning system would probably achieve this as well, if not better.

Yep, the thing about removing the excess string is that it will increase the amount of intonation compensation needed slightly.
It will also make pitch bending occur at a higher rate, but with more pressure needed for a given deflection.

All trade offs really. My question is, does it really matter how much force it takes to deflect the string?

-Nick

I've got two main problems that lead me to build a 32" instrument:

1.I want a small body shape for the bass. (very small)
2.I hold the bass very high.

So in this case, a longer scale makes it impossible to reach the lower frets.

So it sounds like what you want is a 32" version of your 34" bass, is that correct? If so, the obvious choice is to keep as many of the variables the same as possible, and slightly increase the string gauge.

I have a very short scale bass that has excellent tension...

http://sdbguitars.com/wenge_short_scale_small.jpg

~28 5/8" scale. I originally intended to make this a piccolo bass, but decided to use medium gauge strings on it instead. It plays and feels much like my 34" basses in tension, and it sustains *way* more than I expected.

I have a very short scale bass that has excellent tension...


Nice bass !!! is it available?:D

Nice bass !!! is it available?:D

PM me about it for more info...

hey shawn, is that oak? i though oak was unstable for musical instruments. very nice though

hey shawn, is that oak? i though oak was unstable for musical instruments. very nice though

Nope, not oak... that's wenge (1/4" thick on both the top and the back... the core is alder). It's reasonably easy to work with, so long as you don't mind splinters. Sands to a nice smooth surface, though, and doesn't require a finish (Warwick uses it for fretboards, and used to use it for their necks as well, before the price shot up.

Here's a shot of the body and neck before carving (I re-did the wenge on the body because I found a better piece, that's why the grain of the body blank doesn't match the final product):

http://sdbguitars.com/wenge_bass_start.jpg

I will be completing a 32.1" short scale instrument very soon and will be using DR coated strings. I'm worried about the tension, but it will be a fun experiment. Pics to follow soon too. :D

I will be completing a 32.1" short scale instrument very soon and will be using DR coated strings. I'm worried about the tension, but it will be a fun experiment. Pics to follow soon too. :D

well, i bet the quality is good enough, that the only possible bad sound could be from bad luck with the scale. if the e string don't sound to good, i would throw out the e, and just have a higher tuned bass (a-d-g-c). my necxt one i think will be a 32" hollow, and i hope i don't have to resort to higher tunning, or unnaturally fat strings. best of luck

Matt from FBB custom builds some great shorter scale basses. A few are 6 strings. He might be able to help...

Yep. Same with Cliff Bordwell. But half the fun in luthiery is learning from personal experience.

Yep, the thing about removing the excess string is that it will increase the amount of intonation compensation needed slightly.
It will also make pitch bending occur at a higher rate, but with more pressure needed for a given deflection.

Good points. I forgot about the intonation thing. But with a low action, it should be insignificant.

All trade offs really. My question is, does it really matter how much force it takes to deflect the string?

Definitely! I think that affects the "feel" of the tightness of the string much more than the tension itself.

Definitely! I think that affects the "feel" of the tightness of the string much more than the tension itself.
I think that's a safe bet, since there's no other way to judge the tension.

I have also gotten into the whole string tension debate on here many, many times. IMO and IME the construction of the bass and the construction of the strings both have a massive impact on the tension of the strings during the vibration cycle.

Word.

String length between nut-tuners and top-load vs string-thru don't effect the tension of a static string, but they both have an effect on the vibrating string and the apparent tension that the player feels.

Among guitar players, it is universally accepted that it is easier to bend strings on a Strat than on a Les Paul despite the higher string tension of the Strat...for exactly these reasons.

Good points. I forgot about the intonation thing. But with a low action, it should be insignificant.



Definitely! I think that affects the "feel" of the tightness of the string much more than the tension itself.

I think that's a safe bet, since there's no other way to judge the tension.

But what I'm wondering is if people are actually looking for a tight feeling string, or are they more worried about it not being flabby and bouncing off of frets, or is it that they don't want it to "sound" loose. All three have different solutions, and I'm not really sure what it is that people are concerned with.

Word.

String length between nut-tuners and top-load vs string-thru don't effect the tension of a static string, but they both have an effect on the vibrating string and the apparent tension that the player feels.

Among guitar players, it is universally accepted that it is easier to bend strings on a Strat than on a Les Paul despite the higher string tension of the Strat...for exactly these reasons.

I definitely agree. The thing is, that there's not much you can do to make the string tighter, usually only looser, with the exception of a locking nut. I've often seen it suggested that longer headstocks and through stringing, etc, can increase tension, and this is obviously wrong.

-Nick

"Nice" tension from a 32" B? Sounds like an oxymoron to me. Don't mean to be trite, but I've played 3 sub 34" 5ers (a Fodera MG, a mercifully discontinued Ric Laredo and an R Bass) and I found the notes below low E to be flabby to the ear on all of them. This paradigm may be a good compromise for some players who want the other benefits of a 5er, but weak tone and playability from low B to Eb is the price they're paying IMO.

"Nice" tension from a 32" B? Sounds like an oxymoron to me. Don't mean to be trite, but I've played 3 sub 34" 5ers (a Fodera MG, a mercifully discontinued Ric Laredo and an R Bass) and I found the notes below low E to be flabby to the ear on all of them. This paradigm may be a good compromise for some players who want the other benefits of a 5er, but weak tone and playability from low B to Eb is the price they're paying IMO.

The bottom line is that there is a simple answer for increasing tension (stiffness?) on the strings at this scale length:

Use a higher gauge string. Period.

It will increase your tension, stiffness and sustain. You can't increase the *tension* at that any fixed scale with the same strings... that increases the *pitch*. To increase the *tension* at a given scale and pitch, you *must* increase the string mass. It's basic physics.

How high?
Moving up from 40-125 to 45-130 will do?
What is the difference between strings made for short-medium scales and standard?
http://www.daddario.com/DADProdDetail.aspx?CodaID=1092&ID=3&Class=ACGA

I'm reasonably sure I used either standard Slinky (.050" - .105") or Power Slinky (.055" - .110") strings on it. Feels just about like my 34" bass that has Elixer mediums on it... very punchy, not flabby at all.

The .045" - .130" Ernie Balls are what they term their standard "Slinky" strings. Power Slinky's would be .050" - .135". You might have to experiment with string gauges to find whatever is right for *you*, for your playing style, and for what your hand wants to "feel" whe playing.

How high?
Moving up from 40-125 to 45-130 will do?
What is the difference between strings made for short-medium scales and standard?
http://www.daddario.com/DADProdDetail.aspx?CodaID=1092&ID=3&Class=ACGA

It just depends how loose is too loose for you.

The only difference is the length of the wound section of the string.

Realistically, you're talking about 32" and that's only about a 10% length decrease. try something with a .130 B. If you still want it tighter you could probably go to a Warwick "Dark Lord" set. That would give you really high tension (Better build your neck nice and strong to be sure).

-Nick

Ok,
I think I'll try these:

LaBella hard rockin steels 45 - 135
Fodera Steels 50-135
MTD steels 45-135