After a pretty crap-sounding gig recently (big PA support, heaps of foldback potential, but ultimately craptacular mix both onstage and FOH), I got to thinking about the pros and cons of DI. The sound guy did a whole lot of EQing at the desk, negating the sound I had dialled up onstage with Sansamp and my rig (he took feed from the DI). I had to get him to take off the mega treble from the mix. The usual engineer woes, sure you're all familiar with being at the mercy of a stranger's sense of good sound.

So then, my amp is the onstage support, very little came back via the foldback (let alone the rest of the band, later corrected somewhat), and when I wandered to FOH, it didn't sound anything like my sound any more (warwick-based).

At this same venue recently, with a diff. engineer of course, the band's bass was mic'd, and I swear I could enjoy 100% of the dude's Longhorn's unique tone. Dunno if he also ran a DI out to reinforce it... And of course engineers are each unique...

But, long way to a question: do you insist on a mic on your amp or are you happy to let them take a DI feed and sort out the FOH sound? Or a combo of both?

A good DI can give much better (bottom) clarity, of course, and it's so much easier to run. But I'm starting to lean to a mic'd sound. Any preference or experience... do you insist on something, or even bring yr own mic to the show... or...

Maybe I'm just getting sick of telling engineers to keep it as clean as I send it... but to my mind there's nothing better than a fantastic mix at a live show, and yet it's so dependent on the random vagaries of an engineer's ears... maybe a mic can take some of that back.

reens

If It's not a terribly large venue, I prefer to just let my amp do the talking and stay out of the PA as much as possible.

Mic, though, if the PA is necessary. I like the way my cab sounds. Of course my mic has a really low freq. response...other mics might lose some bottom. I might go DI once I get my Carvin head...it's got a nice DI built in.

I've totally dropped my DI in favor of a mic for that exact same reason.

I plan on getting a mic real soon to bring to every gig so all the money I spend getting the perfect tone doesn't go to waste because of a soundman who wants everything to sound like a P.

The sound guy did a whole lot of EQing at the desk, negating the sound I had dialled up onstage..


But, long way to a question: do you insist on a mic on your amp or are you happy to let them take a DI feed
..yet it's so dependent on the random vagaries of an engineer's ears..
reens
It doesn't matter.
If the engineer is the type who insists on re-EQ'ing to the point of making it unrecognizable, they can do that with either the DI OR a mic feed.

If there's enough lines have the soundman run DI and mic. Good engineers will blend the two.
If you have to choose, go mic - mics get the punch.

Yeah, you're at the mercy of the soundguy, unfortunately. Bribe him with pizza.

IF i was using a dirtier sounding rig, SVT or the like, then i'd probobly want the sound of the amp. but i want the sound of my bass..so i'm always a DI man. (ive even done gigs without anything on the stage, just into the PA...sometimes its not so bad.)

mics really just dont do it for me. its also better for a live recording, gets no spill from drums or guitars..

I've totally dropped my DI in favor of a mic for that exact same reason.

right -- anyone have any preferred bass-friendly mics?

I figure with a mic, an engineer is more or less forced to get the best sound at the mixing end...

right -- anyone have any preferred bass-friendly mics?

I figure with a mic, an engineer is more or less forced to get the best sound at the mixing end...

EV RE20, Beyer M88, Senn 421. I like all of those on a bass amp.
Some people like some of the kick drum mics: AKG D112, Audix (D5?).

JimmyM has been singing the praises of one of the Heil dynamics lately, maybe the PR40? I've heard mixed stuff about the reliability of those things.

I've had an Audio Technica AT4033 parked in front of my amp at home for quite a while lately, I like it quite a bit.

I'll even take a 57 over a DI on a gig, in most rooms that lack of low frequency extension can actually help.

Ya, the Heil PR 40 has a tremendous low end range and a pretty flat response. But really, I've heard a ton of different mics and they all sound good in their own way. I just don't like kick mics, though. Too scooped for me.

I got to use a Beyer M88 for the first time tonight. Gig in CT with a rented SVT-CL and 410HLF. Really good. I enjoyed it quite well. But the PR 40 is $325 and the Beyer is $450 ;)

It doesn't matter.
If the engineer is the type who insists on re-EQ'ing to the point of making it unrecognizable, they can do that with either the DI OR a mic feed.

Exactly.

I prefer using the pre-eq DI out on the amp. The simple reason for that is that the soundman can change the FOH sound as he want and I can change the stage sound as I want (well within reasonable limits of course...)

However, on smallish gigs I prefer not feeding any signal to the PA. The amp is powerful enough and I have enough speakers to move the air with for those gigs. There's countless of times I've been mixing a band when the bass rig on stage has as such been enough so no extra PA support have been necessary...

At a large venue how you sound out front is totally at the mercy of the soundman regardless of what you send him.

Both - if I can convince the sound person to do so, and that's rare. I'm aware of the benefits of a DI, although it rarely captures the sound of my rig accurately. The audience may not care one bit, although I do.

I completely agree with the notion that "to my mind there's nothing better than a fantastic mix at a live show." Mixing the 2 together usually helps on the bass end, although of course you are at the mercy of whoever's doing the mixing. ;)

At a large venue how you sound out front is totally at the mercy of the soundman regardless of what you send him.

Yup. My opinon (and personal taste) is to find a really transparent amp for my SR5. I can give the soundman pre-EQ, but he can't take that Musicman sound away. Here's Stingray in your face chump!

But, long way to a question: do you insist on a mic on your amp or are you happy to let them take a DI feed and sort out the FOH sound? Or a combo of both?

I prefer to have both, but for the DI I make it so that the DI in my rack is used, or if I am using a smaller setup, I never plug the bass into the DI. Either way, the DI goes last in the effect chain to the amp so that the sound going into the amp is also the sound going to the board.

I like mics.

If I have to choose "mic or DI", I ALWAYS go "mic" . . . I PREFER a mic on each amp with a little DI (not very much, really) mixed in . . . If there's a choice of mics, I prefer the EV RE-20 (PL-20), but if there isn't anything more "esoteric" available, a SM-58 (or 57) works fine.

EV RE20, Beyer M88, Senn 421. I like all of those on a bass amp...I'll even take a 57 over a DI on a gig, in most rooms that lack of low frequency extension can actually help.
yep!

...I just don't like kick mics, though. Too scooped for me...
also true for ME!

thanks all, great replies. I'm going all the way to MicLand right now.

Kick mics are often a bad idea, since the soundguy will usuallu use the same kick mic in the kick, making it harder to frequency mix (eq) the too apart. Result, bass is lost in the mix since all soundguys love a kick that will rupture the spleen of every human within a 2 mile radius.

An audix D4 looks like a really decent cheaper solution, its for bass instruments, but not necessarily kick. Having said that I havent heard one yet :)

A mic does NOT get "your sound" unless your sound is the way your rig sounds from a few inches away from one of the speakers. My cabinets are ported, and all have multiple drivers and tweeters. Heck, the EA cabs have three different kinds of drivers. The sound I hear from my cabinets (and I submit that anyone playing through ported cabs) is the sum total sound of the whole thing. That includes the different drivers interacting, the ports, etc. What I hear standing a few feet away from my cabinets is not at all what any good mic is going to hear when we aim it at one of the 10" speakers in my D410XLT. Plus, whether you mic it or go DI pre-EQ, or DI post-EQ, or DI right off the PUPs, you're still "at the mercy" of the sound ops.

Whatever works, works. But be sure you know exaclty what you're doing rather than making gross assumptions about how it will sound.

My last band had a great PA, and that rare breed of sound ops who actually has ears, understands music, etc. I went DI right off my effects using a SansAmp BDDI. I used the BDDI as another voice so I'd switch the EQ/gain stuff in and out. But my recorded sound straight from the board was exactly what I wanted, and when others played my stuff on occasion I really liked how it sat in the mix. And I got lots of compliments on my sound.

jte

As a sound guy and a bassplayer, I'd say probably 85% of people can get the sound that they want with a D.I., but theres nothing you can really do about the taste of a sound guy. Personally, I only EQ things to correct a problem, such as a buzz in the high end or a serious lack of low end. In the end, it depends ultimately on a combination of things including what your speakers sound like and what style you play. I would much rather use a D.I then a 57, but that opinion is mostly informed by the fact that most of the bassplayers I have worked with have a better quality bass vs the quality of their bass cab/amp. For my own live sound, I run the D.I right off my WT800B. I suppose if for any reason I was unable to use it, I would probably ask for a mic only because my warwick has passive pups and the signal from it is a bit weak.

The answer is "it depends on the application." As an engineer, I usually prefer a combination of both, but it really depends. If you're going for that super clean tone then maybe all you need to get your sound across is a nice DI. If you're running all kinds of effects or with a highly coloured rig (i.e. SVT :D) then you probably need a mic signal. There is something about the interaction between a speaker and a mic that you just can't get with a DI, especially when effects are involved. Direct lines, post FX tend to sound terrible.

Though the popular notion is that you're at the "mercy" of the sound people, the person ultimately responsible for your FOH sound is you. There is a limit to how much your tone can be manipulated by the sound person. With respect to sound reinforcement, the old adage of SISO is true. What you get out of the PA is only as good as what goes in, so make sure that you have your tonal ducks in a row before bitching about the sound people. Seriously, I've seen so many instances where musicians have really awful tone and then expect the sound engineer to somehow fix it so that it sounds deluxe out front. There's really only so much you can do.

Anyway, the long and short of it is to try to work with the sound people to find the best way to get your sound across and I hope all of you get to experience working with competent, congenial sound engineers. I know that many of you have had really bad experiences, please don't let it totally sour you, there are some very talented people standing behind mixing consoles out there.

I let the soundguy do what he wants if it's his PA and house. I just give him the best signal I can via DI, or he can mic the cab with the mic of his choosing. If you're in a situation with FOH sound, it's completely in their hands, period.

Most of my 'sound' comes from my fingers and on-board pre-amp anyway, everything down the signal chain from there is irrelevant to me.

I like the repeatability and lack of hassle inherent in my DI. I run a preamp, pedal board, and whatever amp into an 810. No matter what else happens on stage, the signal I sent to FOH is the same as the night before, which was the same as the weekend before, etc. I just reassure soundmen that I have a compressor in front of the DI to minimize volume changes from EQ or effects, and go.

No amount of microphones, beer, pizza, or yelling will fix a deaf, incompetent, or overly opinionated soundman. Using a DI over a mike means one less hassle I have to deal with between getting off work and showing up for my gig.

BOTH EVERY TIME!!!

Take some time to learn something about sound engineering then you can talk to the engineer on his terms.
If you can get someone else to soundcheck your bass and go into the room, so much the better.

A mic does NOT get "your sound" unless your sound is the way your rig sounds from a few inches away from one of the speakers. My cabinets are ported, and all have multiple drivers and tweeters. Heck, the EA cabs have three different kinds of drivers. The sound I hear from my cabinets (and I submit that anyone playing through ported cabs) is the sum total sound of the whole thing. That includes the different drivers interacting, the ports, etc. What I hear standing a few feet away from my cabinets is not at all what any good mic is going to hear when we aim it at one of the 10" speakers in my D410XLT. Plus, whether you mic it or go DI pre-EQ, or DI post-EQ, or DI right off the PUPs, you're still "at the mercy" of the sound ops.

Whatever works, works. But be sure you know exaclty what you're doing rather than making gross assumptions about how it will sound.

My last band had a great PA, and that rare breed of sound ops who actually has ears, understands music, etc. I went DI right off my effects using a SansAmp BDDI. I used the BDDI as another voice so I'd switch the EQ/gain stuff in and out. But my recorded sound straight from the board was exactly what I wanted, and when others played my stuff on occasion I really liked how it sat in the mix. And I got lots of compliments on my sound.

jte
That's great. Your system works for you. Don't presume that our system doesn't work for us just because you don't like it.

I just bought an Audix D4, actually just got it in yesterday, and used at my gig last night. Ran the Audix and a DI to the board.......sounded great! I was also able to get a good bass mix in my monitor....sounded just like my amp. The DI into my monitor has never really worked well since I send a clean signal to the board from my DI.

I'm extremely happy with my purchase so far! I just kindly asked the soundguy if he minded me running a DI and mic, wasn't a big deal at all.

That's great. Your system works for you. Don't presume that our system doesn't work for us just because you don't like it.

Um, no offense to you, but it's common knowledge that on a forum everyone is voicing their opinions, you don't need to come out and point that out. He wasn't being very aggressive about his view of things either. Did you really need to make that reply?

Um, no offense to you, but it's common knowledge that on a forum everyone is voicing their opinions, you don't need to come out and point that out. He wasn't being very aggressive about his view of things either. Did you really need to make that reply?
Actually, I did. His first sentence was to tell us that we don't get "our sound" when we put a mic in front of a cab. Maybe he doesn't get "HIS sound," but I definitely get "MY sound" with a mic in front of a cab. Maybe he's not intense about it as a lot of the busybodies on here who REALLY cheese me off with mispronouncements and faulty info about sounds they don't like, but all the same, if someone thinks they're getting their sound to the PA and it works for them, there's no reason anyone should say it doesn't.

Actually, I did. His first sentence was to tell us that we don't get "our sound" when we put a mic in front of a cab. Maybe he doesn't get "HIS sound," but I definitely get "MY sound" with a mic in front of a cab. Maybe he's not intense about it as a lot of the busybodies on here who REALLY cheese me off with mispronouncements and faulty info about sounds they don't like, but all the same, if someone thinks they're getting their sound to the PA and it works for them, there's no reason anyone should say it doesn't.

Perhaps you should re-read his first line.

You still need to understand that it is all his opinion. You don't need to make a reply and assume people don't know that. Perhaps you need to relax if you're getting so cheesed off by someones reply on a forum. Realize it's an opinion and move on, it is not nearly as big a deal as you make it out to be. There are far harsher places on the internet, rarely on talkbass do people seem to have the intention to force their word upon you. He was saying what he thinks, not forcing it down your throat.

I think you're getting more hostile than I ever did.

Sorry if it seems that way, I'm blowing it out of proportion.

:D Happens to us all. I probably did, too.

I prefer using the pre-eq DI out on the amp. The simple reason for that is that the soundman can change the FOH sound as he want and I can change the stage sound as I want (well within reasonable limits of course...)

However, on smallish gigs I prefer not feeding any signal to the PA. The amp is powerful enough and I have enough speakers to move the air with for those gigs. There's countless of times I've been mixing a band when the bass rig on stage has as such been enough so no extra PA support have been necessary...


Agreed with all of the above - except I'll add that even in smallish places, I still run and soundcheck a pre-EQ DI feed to the board, whether I plan to use it or not - the reason for that is that if I have an amp problem, it's only a matter of bringing up that DI signal to the board, and we're right back in business...

I mainly prefer a pre-EQ DI because that way I can make ANY changes(EQ or volume) I want for the stage mix - without effecting the FOH mix at all... I make sure all of my gigging basses sound great on their own, and don't use any effects - so while that approach works quite well for me, it might not work so well for those who use effects, or who's basses don't sound that great through a pre-EQ DI feed...



- georgestrings