We have a PA system and we are running two mics off of it. When my mike and the other mike is turned on, there is a horrible squealing noise. If i turn mine off, it mostly stops, but you can still hear a little bit. I already know that our vocal mikes are picking up our amps and drums because i can hear it through the PA speakers. We are in a bit off a cramped space, its not too too cramped though. Even if we have our mikes on and dont play our instruments, it still starts to squeal. But the instruments seem to make it worse. Any suggestions? Thanks!

Simply put, from what I can tell, you have a feedback loop. A tiny bit of noise goes into the mic, goes through the system and out the speakers. Mic picks up noise from speakers, sends noise to the system, system amplifies noise again. Rinse and repeat until your ears explode.

What microphones are you using, if you don't mind me asking? It's entirely possible that you're using a mic meant, well, to pick up everything in the room when you should be using a mic that only picks up whatever's right in front of it (IIRC, a cardioid... something or another... :p).

Simply put, from what I can tell, you have a feedback loop. A tiny bit of noise goes into the mic, goes through the system and out the speakers. Mic picks up noise from speakers, sends noise to the system, system amplifies noise again. Rinse and repeat until your ears explode.

What microphones are you using, if you don't mind me asking? It's entirely possible that you're using a mic meant, well, to pick up everything in the room when you should be using a mic that only picks up whatever's right in front of it (IIRC, a cardioid... something or another... :p).


Sure, we are actually just using the mikes that came with the package, a couple of Fenders.

How have you set the gain knob on the mixer? I've found that a higher gain setting makes the mic more prone to feedback, for some reason...

Check the angle between the center of the speaker and the microphone. Most vocal mics take up the least noise from speakers if they aren't pointing straight away from the speaker, but in a 30° angle.

Then check the eq. The feedback frequencies usually are in the range 2,5 - 5 kHz, so dampening THESE frequencies slightly should help.

Then check how you hold the mic (if you do). If feedback occurs, don't cover the mic with your hand, it only makes the feedback worse. Instead shut down the mic channel, lower the gain on the mic and turn the volume up slowly again.

If nothing so far is helping enough, buy another mic or a feedback destroyer. I'd try the former first.

How have you set the gain knob on the mixer? I've found that a higher gain setting makes the mic more prone to feedback, for some reason...

Check the angle between the center of the speaker and the microphone. Most vocal mics take up the least noise from speakers if they aren't pointing straight away from the speaker, but in a 30° angle.

Then check the eq. The feedback frequencies usually are in the range 2,5 - 5 kHz, so dampening frequencies slightly should help.

Then check how you hold the mic (if you do). If feedback occurs, don't cover the mic with your hand, it only makes the feedback worse. Instead shut down the mic channel, lower the gain on the mic and turn the volume up slowly again.

If nothing so far is helping enough, buy another mic or a feedback destroyer. I'd try the former first.


We have everything flat. I have my mike on a stand. Is it possible that it is also an electrical issue if i still get feedback when we arent playing?

Are you using any kind of gate?

I don't think that fender makes microphones. What exactly are you using for a PA? My guess is you are trying to turn up louder than the room will allow. You need a graphic EQ or a feedback destroyer or at least some decent microphones.

An honest question for the folks recommending feedback eliminators: has it been your experience that putting a budget feedback eliminator in a modest PA run by novices has improved matters more than fixing the gain structures, eq, and monitor-to-mic positioning would?

I wouldn't guess that an FE would be a magic-bullet without a certain level of operator experience, but I'd be happy to be wrong.

I don't think that fender makes microphones. What exactly are you using for a PA? My guess is you are trying to turn up louder than the room will allow. You need a graphic EQ or a feedback destroyer or at least some decent microphones.

Um, yeah they do. Its written on the mike itself. I believe this is it. It came with mikes.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fender-Passport-Deluxe-PD250-Portable-PA?sku=480665

Fender does not make that microphone. Furman does. At $59.00 I doubt they are very good. For that matter that PA is more suited for a solo or duo act playing music at low volumes. If your a rock band you had better upgrade before you start playing out.

Fender does not make that microphone. Furman does. At $59.00 I doubt they are very good. For that matter that PA is more suited for a solo or duo act playing music at low volumes. If your a rock band you had better upgrade before you start playing out.

Then why is Fender stamped on the mikes? And i have to disagree. We have a friend who plays gigs with it, and he is in a blues/rock band, and it works great for him.

We have everything flat. I have my mike on a stand. Is it possible that it is also an electrical issue if i still get feedback when we arent playing?

At any appreciable gain level and no graphic EQ, you most likely can't get away with a flat channel EQ. You will have to d some negative EQ'ing
with the mids and highs.

JKT

It sounds fine, except from the squealing, we have vids, and its sounds great, besides the squealing.

Then why is Fender stamped on the mikes? And i have to disagree. We have a friend who plays gigs with it, and he is in a blues/rock band, and it works great for him. Do an internet search on the microphone and you will see that furman makes the mic. Fender may put its name on them but they don't make them. Buy a stereo 15 or 31 band graphic EQ and learn how to use it or turn down those are pretty much your only choices.

An honest question for the folks recommending feedback eliminators: has it been your experience that putting a budget feedback eliminator in a modest PA run by novices has improved matters more than fixing the gain structures, eq, and monitor-to-mic positioning would?

I wouldn't guess that an FE would be a magic-bullet without a certain level of operator experience, but I'd be happy to be wrong.

I don't think you're wrong.

To the OP, how have you got the mics situated with respect to the speakers? You should have the mics behind the speakers. You should never orient the mics so speaker output would go into the mics.

If you're using stage monitors, their arrangement will depend on the pattern of your mics. If you're using cardioid mics (which yours probably are) the heel of the mic should point directly along the axis of the monitor cabinet. For super- or hyper-cardioid mics, the monitor should be placed off to one side, so they project off-axis to the mic at about 60 degrees.

In small rooms, you won't be able to get a lot of GBF (gain before feedback), so you can't crank up the volume.

An honest question for the folks recommending feedback eliminators: has it been your experience that putting a budget feedback eliminator in a modest PA run by novices has improved matters more than fixing the gain structures, eq, and monitor-to-mic positioning would?

I wouldn't guess that an FE would be a magic-bullet without a certain level of operator experience, but I'd be happy to be wrong.

Yes they do work. IME they work best in their most basic (roving) mode, practically no setup required. If you add properly set gates as well you can get sigificantly more gain before feedback. Whether they work better than 'fixing' monitoring that has been setup incorrectly is an impossible question to answer, how bad is the starting point?

To the OP, the more mics you add to the system, the earlier the PA will feedback. That's why it helps when you turn one mic off and why gates help, they effectively 'turn off' mics that are not being used (when the input signal drops below a threshold). A mic that's been damaged/dropped can be very prone to feedback, compare the mics and make sure they are both the same. (ie see how much gain before it feeds back, each mic in turn set in the same physical position). Make sure you know the polar pickup pattern of your mics and position your foldback speakers appropriately. Also the front of house speakers must be in front of your mics.

We have everything flat. I have my mike on a stand. Is it possible that it is also an electrical issue if i still get feedback when we arent playing?
No, you don't need to be playing to cause feedback. Having the mic open near a speaker is enough. Playing can "kick start" the feedback, but it's not necessary unless you're balanced on the edge.

If you add properly set gates as well you can get sigificantly more gain before feedback.

Can you please explain how gates will give you more gain before feeback?

Can you please explain how gates will give you more gain before feedback?

A room with a PA turned on is seldom dead quiet. Even when nobody's playing, there's for instance humming speakers, people moving around making all kinds of small noises, and drumskins that start resonating along to the slightest noise. The higher the gain is turned up, the easier the mic picks up these noises and at some point you will get feedback. Of course the room size and distances to the noise sources also matters. Anyway, with a gate you set the minimum level at which point the gate opens up the signal and thus you can prevent the noises from being picked up by the mic.

Someone else might perhaps elaborate more on the topic.

Fender does not make that microphone. Furman does. At $59.00 I doubt they are very good. For that matter that PA is more suited for a solo or duo act playing music at low volumes. If your a rock band you had better upgrade before you start playing out.

I agree - that is an "acoustic- level" setup - push it too hard and it will feed back - Munji ought to know that you need at least 1,000 watts for a decent, rock-level PA!! :p

I agree - that is an "acoustic- level" setup - push it too hard and it will feed back - Munji ought to know that you need at least 1,000 watts for a decent, rock-level PA!! :p The problem is that people see the name Fender and figure it must be good. They may make great instuments and guitar amps but they have never made great PAs. The problem with the passport series is that a band will outgrow it. For rehearsals it is fine but it leaves alot to be desired as a gigging PA.

I don't think you're wrong.

To the OP, how have you got the mics situated with respect to the speakers? You should have the mics behind the speakers. You should never orient the mics so speaker output would go into the mics.

If you're using stage monitors, their arrangement will depend on the pattern of your mics. If you're using cardioid mics (which yours probably are) the heel of the mic should point directly along the axis of the monitor cabinet. For super- or hyper-cardioid mics, the monitor should be placed off to one side, so they project off-axis to the mic at about 60 degrees.

In small rooms, you won't be able to get a lot of GBF (gain before feedback), so you can't crank up the volume.

Our stage setup is like this. Drums in the back, amps to the sides of the drums. Mikes are about 5 feet in front of the drums/amps. The speakers are another 7 or 8 feet in front of the mikes. The mixer itself is placed in between the mikes in front of the drums about 6 feet away.

Can you please explain how gates will give you more gain before feeback?

I already did. ;) You have to look at the PA as a system, the more open mics on that system the sooner it will feedback. A gate automagically 'turns off' any mic where the input signal is below the threshold. So for example mics for backing singers are effectively off when the singers are not actually singing. I've found gates particularly useful on cramped stages where the mic picks up reflections from the walls & ceiling no matter where you point it. If you have several mics for say a horn section you not only reduce the chances of feedback with gates but you clean up the mix because you reduce the bleed. Gates are not a cure all but they are a very useful tool in some situations. Even the cheap ones in budget compressors.

Ok, what EQ changes should i make? And any other suggestions?

I think you will find the limited eq on those units not to be very helpful in controling feedback. If you have the PA set up ok then the best way to combat feedback in a confined space with very limited tools is for everyone to play quieter so you can turn it down. When you get right down to it, the room eventually has the final say on what's possible and what isn't. Have you used other PAs sucessfully in that room at the same volume? Using the reverb will tend to make things worse. Only other thing I can think of is to borrow/hire some better mics to see if they are the issue. Likewise you could hire an eq and see how that goes.

Ok, what EQ changes should i make? And any other suggestions? If it is a high pitched squeal turn down the high end. Next time it feedbacks start turning the channel EQs down until it stops. You need either a graphic EQ, better mics, or to turn down that is pretty much your options.

On a vocals-only PA, try peeling down the low end if you're on a loud stage. You'll cut through better (and so need less gain) if you aren't inadvertently pumping a lot of low end from the stage sound through the vocal mics.

Similarly, if you're playing with a bass-boosted guitarist or keyboard (ack!), get them to fix their eq for a more band-appropriate sound. If the instruments are leaving some frequencies for vocals, you won't need to rely on gobs o' gain to make the vocals intelligible.

...The feedback frequencies usually are in the range 2,5 - 5 kHz, so dampening frequencies slightly should help.
...

Ok, what EQ changes should i make? And any other suggestions?

Think I already answered this...

+1 to not boosting the bass on the vocals. You might think you sound powerful then, but it only makes it difficult to hear what what words you actually sing. In Swedish, I'd say it "sounds like a porridge" when the bass is too boosted on the mic... :p

Think I already answered this...

+1 to not boosting the bass on the vocals. You might think you sound powerful then, but it only makes it difficult to hear what what words you actually sing. In Swedish, I'd say it "sounds like a porridge" when the bass is too boosted on the mic... :p

Im sorry i dont understand the kHz frequency stuff, umm...the bass isnt boosted.

there are ways to improve your sound, while avoiding feedback:

-control you stage volume, the lower the better
-correct placement of mics in relation to speakers (monitors in the mics null spots, FOH speakers behind and away from mics)
-quality mics with true polar patterns
-quality amps and speakers (I prefer Nexo, EAW, Radian etc.)
-if absolutely necessary, corrective EQ from a dedicated EQ unit (i.e. not desk EQ, but a graphic 1/3oct. or a parametric EQ)

that´s a few, there are many more

I agree - that is an "acoustic- level" setup - push it too hard and it will feed back - Munji ought to know that you need at least 1,000 watts for a decent, rock-level PA!! :p

You're right. Mine is 8,200 watts, not counting the 1,600 for monitor land. And that's just for coffee houses.

Our stage setup is like this. Drums in the back, amps to the sides of the drums. Mikes are about 5 feet in front of the drums/amps. The speakers are another 7 or 8 feet in front of the mikes. The mixer itself is placed in between the mikes in front of the drums about 6 feet away.

I suspect your backline in causing the feedback.

Our stage setup is like this. Drums in the back, amps to the sides of the drums. Mikes are about 5 feet in front of the drums/amps. The speakers are another 7 or 8 feet in front of the mikes.

Only 5 feet. That's really close. As pointed out previously a 31 band e.q. would probably help.

I also suggest that you setup the microphones about 2 feet behind the p.a. speakers so you'll be standing about 11 feet away from your backline, including the drums. The drums may also be causing part of the problem.

We set up like that for years and had very few problems.

How wide are the p.a. speakers placed apart?

Im sorry i dont understand the kHz frequency stuff, umm...the bass isnt boosted.

Find a cheap used 15 or 31 band graphic EQ, play around with it a little and you'll figure it out pretty quickly. Or an even easier thing to do is to open a media player on your computer, activate the EQ and play around with the frequency sliders.

Btw, an important word - "these" - were missing in my post about which frequencies you should cut (2,5-5 kHz). These frequencies are very harsh sounding when boosted, but when cut they remove a lot of clarity so there's a balance you have to find.

I didn't assume the bass was boosted on the mic (You said you had it flat IIRC)- it is just a pet peeve of mine when people turn it up too much. It's very common that people do this, and I made that mistake myself for many years until I realized how bad it makes the vocals sound....

Only 5 feet. That's really close. As pointed out previously a 31 band e.q. would probably help.

I also suggest that you setup the microphones about 2 feet behind the p.a. speakers so you'll be standing about 11 feet away from your backline, including the drums. The drums may also be causing part of the problem.

We set up like that for years and had very few problems.

How wide are the p.a. speakers placed apart?

First off, i dont really understand the need for a 8200 watt PA, are you playing an ampitheater?

Anywho, yeah, we think the closeness has a huge part in it. Its almost like if the mics get too close to the speakers, it causes feedback too, so we dont have a lot to work with, haha

The speakers themselves, are placed around 15 feet apart.

It sounds like you don't have more rehearsal space than I used to have. Didn't get feedback very easily though we played quite loud with a ~2 kW PA. I guess it was thanks to good mics, the placement of the speakers and mics and the use of an EQ to dampen problematic frequencies with.

First off, i dont really understand the need for a 8200 watt PA....

One word :

Headroom!! :p

One word :

Headroom!! :p

Headroooom.....agghhhhhghghgh

http://thomaszae.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/homer-drool.gif

You don't need a gate or a feedback eliminator, those are junk you don't need if you have a graphic eq and know how to use it. O and if it's a high pitched squeal you don't just turn down the high eq, it could very well be low frequency causeing a high pitch squeal.

Do you have a graphic eq on your pa?

If so, turn them all down. Turn the pa all the way up. Then take the sliders one by one and bring them up. If the frequency squeals bring it down or cut it alltogether. After doing this you have found the frequencies causing feedback in the room. You will likely have to do this each practice.

If you dont have an EQ, and just your basic high low mid knows, you can do the same but with not so much precision. Just use the knobs. Turn them all down first then raise them one at time.

Effects. If you have onboard effects like reverb. Just turn them off they are a nightmare for causing feedback in small practice space.

Mic position. When you have more than one mic in a pa. The mic has to be about double the distance apart from each other as they are from the pa. If the one mic is just for backup my adise is ditch it if you are that loud and just share the one on backups. Two mics in cramped space is a nightmare.

Also, mic technique. Kiss the mic for best gain before feedback. Point it straight up to avoid bouceback from the walls and speaker noise. Don't cup the capsule like a retard.

Get a mic good at feedback rejection. For louder rock you need this. Try something like an audix 0m7. A lot of mics are crap for loud rock bands in tight areas because they pick up too much. You need a mic that if you back off it it won't pick hardly anything off. I believe you already mentioned that the mic you have picks up the drums very much, this is going to be problem.

Monitor position. If you can mount your monitors on the side at or above ear level. This will really help with both feedback rejection and being able to hear yourself singing over the band. When I used a regular PA I had to have mine kitty corner from each other and facing toward the walls, not the opposite corners. This got me easily over two half stacks and acoustic drums. And this was in garage.

We dont use reverb, and we were actually discussing getting new mikes. Do they really cut down on feedback a lot?

We dont use reverb, and we were actually discussing getting new mikes. Do they really cut down on feedback a lot?

Yes, there is a big difference with the right mics. Best thing is to A&B them at the store. Just have someone plug them in and have the settings the same for each channel and see which one has the best feedback rejection. I use a sennhieser 945 e, works great, sounds great and has good rejection. I've heard great things about audix 0m7 though, supposed to be even better at feedback rejection.

Our stage setup is like this.

I know you specifically say this is your *stage set-up,* but a couple details here sound like you're talking about a rehearsal space.

If your feedback problem is happening in a rehearsal room, position your PA cabs as you would monitors. Turn them toward you, and put them in the microphones' null points. (You'll only create problems by using PA cabs as if for FOH in a little rehearsal room.)

I know you specifically say this is your *stage set-up,* but a couple details here sound like you're talking about a rehearsal space.

If your feedback problem is happening in a rehearsal room, position your PA cabs as you would monitors. Turn them toward you, and put them in the microphones' null points. (You'll only create problems by using PA cabs as if for FOH in a little rehearsal room.)

Sorry, youre right, rehearsal space. But that will be our stage setup so, its all good.

Ditch the mics and get a pair of SHURE SM's, (57's or 58's are used throughout the music industry and have become pretty much the "go to" standard).

With both mics and P.A. you only get what you pay for.

A cheap mic will give you cheap prerformance.

57's or 58's are used throughout the music industry and have become pretty much the "go to" standard.

With both mics and P.A. you only get what you pay for.

A cheap mic will give you cheap prerformance.

While 57´s and 58`s are very durable, and reasonably priced, there are many better on the market. for a little more you can get way better mics.

I´d recommend Sennheiser e935 or e945 for feedback-resistance. Audix OM 6 or 7 are also nice.

but true, YGWYPF.

Well, the thing is, the PA was working fine, then it just starting squealing recently.

all the other variables unchanged?

all the other variables unchanged?
We mightve made one mikes volume a little bit louder but thats it.

Well, the thing is, the PA was working fine, then it just starting squealing recently.

You may have moved nothing in the room, but the frequencies in the room that cause feedback sould still change. This is why you need a graphic EQ + better mics.

We mightve made one mikes volume a little bit louder but thats it.

so that´s the problem. you were "on the edge". get some better mics, and reposition your system.

so that´s the problem. you were "on the edge". get some better mics, and reposition your system.

Well as has been said before - the whole setup is on the edge - in terms of being pushed to its maximum capacity- whereas ideally you need headroom to cope with peaks and troughs!

Well - the word "feedback" isn't just any random musical term. It's used in any system, when a simple stimulus provides increasing stimulus to itself (feedback). It can start with the tiniest sound.

All I know is that it took us some $ and time to get a microphone we could use without feedback on our amps. Our guitar player has the same problem with pick-ups on the acoustic. The tiniest change in levels on the amp produces way more feedback, from those acoustic pickups (which are designed to carry every nuance) than with my bass.

Mikes designed for voices are designed to capture every little eensy beensy sound, as well as keeping the treble range clear and loud. Your system, when set up for instrumental music, isn't also set up for mikes designed for vocalists - you'll have to compromise somewhere.

We have had an equalizer since day one, and while now we have most instruments running through different boards, using the equalizer to solve feedback problems was our own first step back when we had everything running through just two amps.

If I understand correctly, you're running all your sound equally through all the available speakers (the "P.A." system) right?

The stereo suggestion is also a good one. A good P.A. system should have an equalizer board, IMO, and stereo jacks for vocalists. Not only does it help get rid of feedback, it just plain sounds better.

We mightve made one mikes volume a little bit louder but thats it.

You seem to be resisting the idea that anything at all could be the matter. So, if you really believe that nothing has changed and this just started suddenly, all on its own, then, the only thing it could be is sudden equipment failure. If all the components are the same, and once upon a time, it was all working perfectly, then it has to be a change/breakdown in some piece of equipment, doesn't it?

If I were you, I'd quit looking at it as "the P.A.'s fault", you keep saying, "Nothing's changed, the P.A. just started...." You don't know that it's the P.A., then, if nothing changed, do you?

It could be some other component (as suggested throughout this thread). Why would you assume it's the P.A.'s fault?

Look at this way. Let's just say that you had a mike and it was working great. Then one day "the P.A. started squealing." One of the first things I'd check would be the mike membrane (if it has one - they work differently, most have some delicate kind of membrane for picking up sound, at least the ones we have do).

The tiniest hole or scratch in that membrane - and wow, will you ever get feedback. Where once there was X thickness of membrane keeping misc. sound out of your system, now there's x-the scratch or even no x at all if it's a hole.

Then, you get mucho feedback - but it's not the P.A. system in that case, it's the mike.

So a cheap fix is: get two brand new mikes at a store that lets you take mikes back. Problem fixed? At least one of your mikes is bad. Swap one in, check, okay still? The other one is bad.

Etc. Same thing can happen with pickups too and other parts of the system - but you're presenting your details in what seems to be kind of a random order, so it's hard to tell what else could be causing it (we've had feedback from an acoustic pickup that got jarred and repositioned just a tiny bit - enough to make huge squealing noises, however).