I understand that bassists need a lot more watts to cut through the mix than a guitarist, my friend has a 100 watt combo guitar amp by Vox and he defintiely loud enough for any gig he plays. However, i own a Standard MIM Fender Jazz Bass and a Hartke Kickback 12 120 watt combo amp http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=30&brandID=3 and I was wondering if i could get by at small to medium gigs. My friend also has a 100 watt Fender Rumble amp http://www.fender.com/products/search.php?partno=2315600010 and he says its loud enough for the gigs he plays in town. My amp has more watts but is smaller so is it loud enough? If not I heard I could mic the amp or run it thru a PA but im not sure how that works or if a lot of people do that... please let me know if my gear is loud enough for small to medium gigs and if not how the PA and mic ing works. Thanks!

Small and medium are relative terms, but it would be fine for coffee house type gigs or very small bars. Anything larger than that will be case by case depending on the room and your drummer and guitarist volumes. I'd never play what I consider a medium room in a rock band with that little wattage, but it might cover other musical styles.

As far as PA support, you could mic it or use a DI. Just stuff a DI between you and the amp, or mic the amp and plug the cable into a PA channel.

I understand that bassists need a lot more watts to cut through the mix than a guitarist, my friend has a 100 watt combo guitar amp by Vox and he defintiely loud enough for any gig he plays. However, i own a Standard MIM Fender Jazz Bass and a Hartke Kickback 12 120 watt combo amp http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=30&brandID=3 and I was wondering if i could get by at small to medium gigs. My friend also has a 100 watt Fender Rumble amp http://www.fender.com/products/search.php?partno=2315600010 and he says its loud enough for the gigs he plays in town. My amp has more watts but is smaller so is it loud enough? If not I heard I could mic the amp or run it thru a PA but im not sure how that works or if a lot of people do that... please let me know if my gear is loud enough for small to medium gigs and if not how the PA and mic ing works. Thanks!

There's lots of variables involved BUT IMHO for small to medium rooms, your guitar player has too much amp. For guitar a smaller amp driven sounds better than a big amp on "1". 100watts is a lot for guitar in small to medium rooms. A good friend of mine plays HUGE places with artists you've heard.. he uses a 22 watt Fender Deluxe Reverb - everywhere.

That said, IMHO your amp is probably enough for smaller rooms. For medium/larger rooms you could turn it around in the kickback position for your monitor and send a line to the PA. Not enough players actually use this option. It's the basic premise behind the design, as I see it.
If there's no PA support/or you try to use that amp for the whole room, you're gonna push it - IMHO, YMMV.

I've got the kickback 10" (love to try the 12"), and it'll be fine for small gigs. It can JUST keep up with a loud drummer. However for medium gigs it may struggle to project into the room - it depends on how loud the rest of the band is, but you will be pushing it.

100W of guitar is HUGE - there's no way you'll keep up with that, but then there's no way you want to be in the same room as 100W of guitar. He's not going to be able to run it flat out, so it really depends on how loud he decides to set it as to whether you can keep up.

For large gigs just put it on stage where you can hear it, and when the sound guy wanders over and mumbles something about DI to you, point to the three pin plug on the front panel. He'll sort it, and wander off happy.

Ian

My formula is take the guitarists' total watts, say there are two 30 watt amps, add them together (60 watts) and multiply by 10.

What? 600 watts is a lot? No, it is only twice as loud as 60, and the Equal Loudness curves (Fletcher-Munson Curves) show that lower frequencies need much more power to achieve equal loudness, all other things being equal (never true, BTW).

I am not advocating loud music, in fact, I hate it. Rather, I am advocating that you have enough power to be heard in a wide variety of spaces without PA support when up against 2 guitars AND a drummer AND a PA AND whatever other instruments are in your live mix.

Then there are speakers and EQ...:hiding:

There's lots of variables involved BUT IMHO for small to medium rooms, your guitar player has too much amp. For guitar a smaller amp driven sounds better than a big amp on "1". 100watts is a lot for guitar in small to medium rooms. A good friend of mine plays HUGE places with artists you've heard.. he uses a 22 watt Fender Deluxe Reverb - everywhere.

That said, IMHO your amp is probably enough for smaller rooms. For medium/larger rooms you could turn it around in the kickback position for your monitor and send a line to the PA. Not enough players actually use this option. It's the basic premise behind the design, as I see it.
If there's no PA support/or you try to use that amp for the whole room, you're gonna push it - IMHO, YMMV.

Good advice here, well said.

The Deluxe is a superb sounding amp, love it.

What Dr. Jim says is, IMO, also very good. What you want really is headroom. You won't be using all of that 600w except for transient passages. Having the headroom is what you need the power for.

My formula is take the guitarists' total watts, say there are two 30 watt amps, add them together (60 watts) and multiply by 10.

What? 600 watts is a lot? No, it is only twice as loud as 60, and the Equal Loudness curves (Fletcher-Munson Curves) show that lower frequencies need much more power to achieve equal loudness, all other things being equal (never true, BTW).

I am not advocating loud music, in fact, I hate it. Rather, I am advocating that you have enough power to be heard in a wide variety of spaces without PA support when up against 2 guitars AND a drummer AND a PA AND whatever other instruments are in your live mix.

Then there are speakers and EQ...:hiding:


+1


120 watts is not going to go far beyond rehearsal or a coffee shop.

Just borrow the Fender Rumble and run both amps for larger gigs.

Your Kickback will also power an external 8ohm speaker box (internal spkr disconnected) Maybe getting a 2x12 or 2x15 will get you where you want to go w/o a lot of expense depending on the type of music you play. There are lots of used 2x15 available. Yeah, I know they're not popular but if they're cheap and get the job done, then it works.

I am advocating that you have enough power to be heard in a wide variety of spaces without PA support

I agree with this 100%.
I also acknowledge that there's a couple formulas that are in common usage as a rule of thumb for power, I've heard yours before and another says 4x the guitar amp.

Frankly I don't buy into either one. I know my opinion is minority, in fact I may be the only one with this mentality but:

I believe in having enough power for the bass to sound good in the room. The trickiest situations I've encountered have been the medium sized rooms with no PA support. There, I bring enough to get the job done but I NEVER (repeat NEVER) base my rig on what the other players are bringing. So what if the guitarist has three Marshall stacks? I'm gonna play to the room and audience, not his amp.

I'll put on the flame retardant suit for what will likely follow, but my philosophy is this:
1) experience has taught me that most guitar players bring too much. Just like the OP described. There's absolutely no reason why a guitarist needs 100watts in a medium sized room. I'll go further with, given today's technology and equipment there's no need for more than 30watts for the majority of guitar players. With very few exceptions an overamped guitar player will be frustrated the entire gig. Every time he starts getting close to hitting the sweet spot on the amp, it's gonna be in ear bleed, too loud territory. There will be complaints about being too loud.
Book it. I have no desire in contributing to the cacophony.

2) the louder your stage volume the less you hear the other players and vocals. It's not just the monitors. It's cumulative.
I prefer to play as a group, not a bunch of individuals.

3) every medium+ size venue I've ever played has had PA support. If it didn't the gig is a bust anyway.
With PA support all I need is enough for the stage at most, my personal monitor in the least. 300, 400 watts with adequate speaker coverage has never been NOT enough.

4) I don't play the volume war thing. I did, long ago but I grew up.

5) the bigger/better venues are going (almost all I've been in) if not already gone to In ear Monitors.

My order of preference:
a) My pedal board/DI to the PA with IEM's. This works in any size room and I guarantee you, my bass will sound good.

b) A kickback amp (like the OP's or similar) in front of me for my monitor with a line to the PA. This will work on almost any stage in any size room.

c) A little more power and speakers for stage fill, PA support for the room. Again, this is getting into tricky territory. As the stage volume increases you will constantly battle the can't hear vs being too loud.

Lastly, d) Backline for the room. I can do it but I hate it.
The last time I had to do this was an outdoor gig. I had no PA support. I used my pedalboard/preamp to a 650watt head with a two 10" cabinet. The soundman gave me the hand signal when my volume was good - it stayed there the entire time. My 300watt head would have worked equally as well.

I have no interest in playing with immature players and situations where I "need" to outdo somebody else. It's silly and I won't participate.

Again, I'm a firm believer in having a rig that's adequate but I never base my gear on what the other players are bringing. I base it on what I need for the bass to sound good. Let the stupid guitar player be frustrated all night long. I'm too old for that game. If I had to I could bring a 650watt head, a 300watt head, four 10"s a 15" and an 18". I've yet to play that gig.
IMHO YMMV tax tag and title sold separately..
{ :hiding: ducks for cover while clicking the Submit button}

Personally, i'd say that would do the job quite nicely. Both my guitards have the same amp. Peavy Valveking 212 at something daft like 200 watts. I play a Fender Rumble 60 Watt amp and cut through quite nicely. If you dont cut through well enough, ask them to turn down.

I agree with most of TL5's points, and I'll add a bit different perspective.

I play the small to medium circuit (in New Mexico no less), most every weekend (8-12 a month), and my 'arsenal' is limited. Virtually all of these places have no PA support, so my rig is chosen less for each room, and more for it's relative utility in general. The required schlepping makes size and weight important too. I've made adjustments here and there but I try to bring the same rig to all my gigs, it's a known quantity and any dialing in is minor. The special festival or large venue gig does have support/backline, but those are less frequent, and I'm talking more about a regular week to week gig schedule.

Going IEM isn't practical for us now, hell maybe it is. I think I'd like it a lot if I didn't need a traditional rig, and could get a good sound and control. I admit I don't know the costs or details about it, but until I do, it's the old-fashioned way.

To the OP, I'm not sure I can answer your question accurately. I like TL5's advice, his experience is showing. :D

If your guys are cranking their amps, you may not have enough, but that's likely much too loud. With a live rig and no support, it's important to have enough headroom; it's there when you need it. More than once I liked my stage volume and was told the bass couldn't be heard in the room.

I guess it comes down to you evaluating your situation. If you think it sounds good, why change just because someone else says it's not enough? It might be, but you make that call by using your ears.

Once you are playing through PAs with subs, anything will do - just put it where you can hear it (instead of pointing it at your knees like everyone else does).

Until then, Mr. Carr's post is pretty close I'd say.