Hello Mr. Neher,
Ive taken a lesson from a bassist in the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra, and came of it more angry than anything else. Besides the man's condescending and negative attitude towards my goals, every other teacher or musician/directors have told me that my main problem is my bowing, which i believe since this was my first year playing double bass from electric so i wasnt used to using a bow. No one has ever said anything about my left hand, considering it works totally fine for me. I have big enough hands to play the double bass like i do my electric and have never had a problem playing that way in an orchestra setting. In any case, i took a lesson with this guy and he told me my problem was my left hand and that my right wasnt as bad as the left. He said this because i use my third finger like i would electrically and all my fingers arent down sometimes like say when your fourth finger is on the note being played. Ive tried the way he has taught me to use my left hand, but it only seems to add more thought and complication than needed. it makes me play more out of tune, less accurately, and generally slower. If i play the way i do though, i dont have any of these problems. I have seen Stanley Clarke playing pizz. and he uses his third finger much like an electric bassist would too. It just seems that this method with the left hand has made my playing worse rather than improved it, and ive never had intonation or rythm problems before with the way i use my left hand. So my question is, is using my left hand as an electric bassist would on a double bass really that awful if it works fine for me and no one else has seemed to care about it?

While waiting for Mr Neher's response may I contribute one cent's worth?

I have been using 1-2-3-4 fingering all over the bass since 1965, generally on string lengths of about 42 inches. With another teacher and my time again I would happily have settled for 1-2-4 for reasons of simpler more efficient rise and fall of fingers, greater endurance and relaxation by not spreading fingers so widely, and easier control of intonation. No matter which you use it has to be a well thought out system that does the job efficiently and reliably.

To me there are probably about four systems of fingering. (1) Strict old style Simandl would perhaps have you moving your entire hand and thumb in clear steps between positions. This can be too stiff and slow. (2) To speed up and free up string crossing passages and moving backwards and forwards between adjacent positions, a system of pivoting has evolved, where the thumb remains fixed but the fingers change position on the front of the neck. (3) A strict 1234 system where your hand tries to cover three 1/2 tones in lower positions by stretching and holding fingers apart is to stiff, slow and tiring for all but giant hands. The fingers can't dance. I have seen this described as the FRANKE method and once had a now-out-of-print tutor book by a Scandinavian teacher, printed by William Hansen Edition I think. (4) Then there is a freer more rolling use of 1234 in lower positions that settles into comfortable finger spacings around "frets" 4567 (eg D Major across three strings This what I use. I have met Rabbath and seen him play but have never studied his system so can't comment on it.

The reason for saying the above is so you can position yourself. Maybe you have a fifth way!!

Even though I have long fingers that can stretch far apart I am half shifting and half pivoting from finger to finger to combine adjacent lower positions, keeping my fingers in good arched shape and comfortably spread. In slower music I tend to hold the last note and use it as a reference point to stretch sideways like a spider to drop vertically on the next. Unless settling on a 4th finger note for any length of time I do not support it with fingers 1 2 or 3. I prefer to sustain vibrato on fingers 2 or 3 rather than 1 or 4. If 4 is used I bunch up my hand and move my thumb behind it, perhaps helping hold down with 3.

Fingers 1 and 2 are faster and stronger (both vertically and laterally) than 3 and 4 whose ligaments appear to join somehow further back in the hand. This may be the reason that the Simandl fingering 124 was promoted. Conventional wisdom was/is that you back up finger 4 with finger 3 for extra strength. With modern strings and lower actions I don't find this necessary.

A warning. Only using 1234 fingering in a section full of people using 124 can make you shift differently and visually look lazy to other players,the conductor and audience. Also others are often envious because you can do lots without shifting as much on the neck. For political reasons try to vaguely follow the Principal's use of which string/which position.

Everything we do with 1234 fingering relies just as much as 124 on good hand shapes and uses to establish strong muscle memories in a well thought out system that works.

If you could make a callous on your nose you could use that too, if you had a system!!

Stick to your guns, Larry13, but watch hand and fingers shapes and look out for clarity and intonation on the bottom A flat!!

DP

I would check your intonation with a tuner, I really, really doubt your intonation is consistent enough to justify the use of 4 fingers.
I would learn the standard 124 fingering, either with a teacher teaching Simandl or Rabbath.
If you learn both ways then you can see if your way really works better.
There are about 50 threads about this, and many, many if not most electric players make the same mistake and it just does not work out.
There are four finger methods for double bass but they are different from the ones from electric.

I actually agree with you, Damon, about intonation. Yes, I have to be careful and do regularly use a tuner to check but I've been playing scales and arpeggios for 45 years and the little old monkey sitting on my shoulder commenting on intonation ( like Jimminy Cricket and Pinnochio) is just as grey as I am. I can clearly hear in my head as structures the Major and both minor scales, their broken chords and Dominant and Diminished 7ths and can move straight to the notes without faltering. Within the give-and-take of playing in a section I'm fine.

By the way, how old is your monkey?

DP

The point here is that the correct advice for this kid is to forget about bass guitar technique, learn one of the standard methods and if he still has an interest in four finger technique for double bass THEN, he should get one of the books that discuss it like Art Davis' or Tom Gale's. Four finger technique on the double is an advanced technique that has little or nothing to do with bass guitar regardless of how big your hands are, we all have heard that one a thousand times.

Part of playing double bass is being able to use more than one fingering system and if you don't have the discipline to learn one of the foundational methods then you don't have the discipline for the double bass, especially on the classical side.
I am 35.

I would follow Damon's advice. Four finger is pretty tough, especially in the lower register.

I use a 4 finger technique a lot in the middle register, around the heel, and even that can get kinda tricky. When you're using all 4 fingers, relaxing is really difficult, and with out basic 1-2-4 training, you really don't have much of a shot. Learn the traditional fingerings. You'll play more relaxed, and your tone will be bigger, more clear and more consistent. After you can handle fast shifting, THEN learn how to properly use 4 fingers on the double bass. Even then, you won't need it very often.

Also, Simandl is pretty boring. I find it helpful to shed those exercises for a few minutes here and there, but more than that, and I lose focus. I would highly recommend Rabbath's books. His fingering system is pretty different, but the first book is all traditional fingerings, and it'll really flex your chops on the lower end of the bass. Also, the exercises and etudes are actually pretty fun to play. They're all very Rabbath.
Also, practicing all your major and minor scales with the traditional fingerings is a really good idea. It teaches you the 'board.

Good luck! Learning the bass is tough. We're all in the same boat.

I would follow Damon's advice. Four finger is pretty tough, especially in the lower register.

I use a 4 finger technique a lot in the middle register, around the heel, and even that can get kinda tricky. When you're using all 4 fingers, relaxing is really difficult, and with out basic 1-2-4 training, you really don't have much of a shot. Learn the traditional fingerings. You'll play more relaxed, and your tone will be bigger, more clear and more consistent. After you can handle fast shifting, THEN learn how to properly use 4 fingers on the double bass. Even then, you won't need it very often.

Also, Simandl is pretty boring. I find it helpful to shed those exercises for a few minutes here and there, but more than that, and I lose focus. I would highly recommend Rabbath's books. His fingering system is pretty different, but the first book is all traditional fingerings, and it'll really flex your chops on the lower end of the bass. Also, the exercises and etudes are actually pretty fun to play. They're all very Rabbath.
Also, practicing all your major and minor scales with the traditional fingerings is a really good idea. It teaches you the 'board.

Good luck! Learning the bass is tough. We're all in the same boat.

I use four finger there, too. I don't really think in terms of boring or not for practice. What is a lot of fun is being able to get around the bass well, and both Simandl and Rabbath lead to that, and whatever else does is also not boring in the end.
Being aware of both is a good plan, I think it is fine to have one or the other as a primary, I think Mr. Neher prefers Rabbath.

The thing I love about Simandl (after going at it from the beginning partly because of Damon Smith's advocacy and partly because I keep taking the journey over and over again with my students) is that he gives you a quick and simple way to rock-solid intonation, and his approach to shifting makes things sound very seamless if done right. The thing I love about Rabbath is that there are those times when, with modern set-ups, one wants to/can fly around very quickly, and the four-finger technique facilitates this (and, as was said earlier, Rabbath uses pretty much regular Simandl fingering in the first book).

Although they are not method books, there are two books of scale and arpeggio fingerings that address the strong points of both approaches: Mark Morton's "Miraculous Fingerings" set. He gives two slow fingerings and one fast fingering for each scale and arpeggio (one, two, and three octave versions), and the fast one usually makes use of all four fingers with some pivoting. Works really well IME.

I'm no expert or one to give advice - but if you look around this site there has been a huge amount written about this and as somebody who plays both BG and DB - I have to say they are just two completely different instruments and there is no way I would approach them in the same way! :eek:

So - out of the hundreds maybe thousands of great DB players I've seen - very, very few use a four finger left hand technique - and I don't think you can argue with all the weight of evidence and experience...?

I use four finger there, too. I don't really think in terms of boring or not for practice. What is a lot of fun is being able to get around the bass well, and both Simandl and Rabbath lead to that, and whatever else does is also not boring in the end.
Being aware of both is a good plan, I think it is fine to have one or the other as a primary, I think Mr. Neher prefers Rabbath.


I think you're right, I unintentionally came off as pretty anti-Simandl. Those fingerings truly are the foundation, and as Jeremy said, they do really give you a quick way to good intonation. I do, however, feel like the books themselves are kind of dated, and I kind of have a difficult time sawing away at those exercises.

That said, I did go through that stuff, and I feel it's very important to know how to do what is described in the books, and I don't know of any other method that teaches the basics as organized and systematic as Simandl.

Funny: after too many years playing Fender, I moved to DB a as luck would have it picked a teacher who was heavily into Rabbath's method, although with a solid Simandal base. The wierd thing is I occasionally find myself pivotting on the Fender at the blues jam (not required, but leads to some interesting interval jumps, and occasional look of death from guitarist's ego).:hmm:
Getting back on point. I managed to cause some serious self inflicted sholder pain by trying to applying Fender techniques to the DB, and had to lay off for several weeks. At the DB gig sometimes the third finger landed on the note and I didn't beat myself up about it. However with a couple of years of practice and lessons now not using the the third finger south of the octave now seems natural.
Extending the thread theme. There has to be a more inviting book on the Simandal method than the original. Simandal may have been a great teacher and musician, but marketing ace, I think not!:eyebrow:
Think a parallel to George Vance's books leading to the Rabbath method. I seem to remeber Ken Smith had some on his site he was including with his bass packages. Any Ideas.

I think its great that you do some use of pivoting on electric bass. I started studying bass on electric bass and my first teacher was Carol Kaye. She strongly advocated the use of pivoting, as well as being a strong advocate of 1-2-4. Her techniques were developed out of the necessity of finding a way to play long hours, most days with the absense of pain. Totally valid approach to electric bass. Why would someone not use this pivoting technique on either instrument?

When I started DB, I already had some knowledge of 1-2-4 and pivoting that helped me apply this to DB more or less. Over the years, I have studied with a few teachers that have run the gamut of either being mostly Simandl, to being mostly Rabbath/Vance, with grounding in Simandl. Certainly the 1-2-4 helped my intonation. That is part of both Simandl and Rabbath. I see value in both approaches, although I seem to prefer more Rabbath ideas, at least for jazz. I agree, if Simandl was presented in a more interesting way.... Has anyone truly attempted to rewrite Simandl in a comprehensive way for the present times? The etudes of Simandl are accessible and interesting to me, but the Books have often felt like a big obligation to get through and I have never plowed entirely through either one, just partially.

Hello Mr. Neher,
Ive taken a lesson from a bassist in the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra, and came of it more angry than anything else. Besides the man's condescending and negative attitude towards my goals, every other teacher or musician/directors have told me that my main problem is my bowing, which i believe since this was my first year playing double bass from electric so i wasnt used to using a bow. No one has ever said anything about my left hand, considering it works totally fine for me. I have big enough hands to play the double bass like i do my electric and have never had a problem playing that way in an orchestra setting. In any case, i took a lesson with this guy and he told me my problem was my left hand and that my right wasnt as bad as the left. He said this because i use my third finger like i would electrically and all my fingers arent down sometimes like say when your fourth finger is on the note being played. Ive tried the way he has taught me to use my left hand, but it only seems to add more thought and complication than needed. it makes me play more out of tune, less accurately, and generally slower. If i play the way i do though, i dont have any of these problems. I have seen Stanley Clarke playing pizz. and he uses his third finger much like an electric bassist would too. It just seems that this method with the left hand has made my playing worse rather than improved it, and ive never had intonation or rythm problems before with the way i use my left hand. So my question is, is using my left hand as an electric bassist would on a double bass really that awful if it works fine for me and no one else has seemed to care about it?

Some lively discussion here... bravo to you all for keeping the discussion constructive. It is SO EASY to fall into "the rights and wrongs." Frankly, what works well for some one (Rabbath? Simandl?) may not work for all. Fortunately we are all HUMAN and come in different sizes and shapes, lengths and girths (to our fingers at least!) so, to say any one method is the "right" way is NUTS! But all ways SHOULD be explored, sor you may find something that works better than what you are presently doing. Also, remember, always, to consider the source of criticism. If one giving you advice has not earned your respect (either for his/her playing and/or teaching or some other life aspect), consider how much the advice or critique has value to you, in relationship to your level of respect. So, with that said... I hope you will at least consider (all of you) my words of advice concerning fingering:
First of all, one develops a method that is like a philosophy, in that it is personal, over the numerous years of playing. It is part of your STYLE! But it, I believe, should be metamorphic. It should be allowed to change, be re-assessed, be critiqued and re-approached numerous times during your playing career. I never used to use third finger in the lower pitched positions until about 15 years ago. Now I use it anytime it seems appropriate, as it (the third) is as strong as the others. With a pivot action, half-step - whole-step figures are easy and actually BETTER in tune (for me) than the old 4, 2, 1 fingering. So for (G string) C,B,A,G I most of the time use 4,3,1,0 fingering. This is a simply example of where use of the 3rd finger works. There are MANY more examples and situations. Being an electric bass player only enhances this ability. Try tuning your bass in 5ths (like cell one octave lower) and the 3rd finger with pivots becomes a necessity (check out Joel Quarrington and Nadia Gale for fifth tuned playing that is awsome).
Remember that fingering is simply a means to get the right notes in the right time with the right connection (I say "right" here because this is what is right for you at the time). There was a passage that I was required to play in a contemporary ensemble piece that required (my choice) to use my chin while my fingers played other notes. I have truly used my nose, cheek, ear, knee, and one big toe to play the "right" notes. Use what you can, play in tune, enjoy the bass.... nothing is hard!
PN:hyper:

With all due respect I think there are two questions here that have different answers:

1. Can we use the 3rd finger/all four fingers to which the answer is "yes", though four finger is more advanced.

and

2. Can we use electric bass technique on double bass to which the answer is "no", or at the very least "that often leads to injury and poor intonation".

With all due respect I think there are two questions here that have different answers:

1. Can we use the 3rd finger/all four fingers to which the answer is "yes", though four finger is more advanced.

and

2. Can we use electric bass technique on double bass to which the answer is "no", or at the very least "that often leads to injury and poor intonation".


I agree - the later discussion has been about applying legitimate techniques/approaches - which is all interesting - but I think the answer to the question posed in the first post in the thread, is a definite "No", as Damon says!

i greatly appreciate everyones imput here but i dont think i made myself as clear as i meant to unfortunately. When i said electric bass technique i meant more along the lines of just using the third finger in general in the lower positions, almost exactly as mr. neher described. Im sorry if i caused confusion or unnecessary debate. Thank you all for helping though. (heaven forbid me to cause seismic activity in the bedrock of double bass technique.) :p

i greatly appreciate everyones imput here but i dont think i made myself as clear as i meant to unfortunately. When i said electric bass technique i meant more along the lines of just using the third finger in general in the lower positions, almost exactly as mr. neher described. Im sorry if i caused confusion or unnecessary debate. Thank you all for helping though. (heaven forbid me to cause seismic activity in the bedrock of double bass technique.) :p

- Did you study from a four finger method book? Or take lessons from a bass teacher specializing in using all four fingers?
It sure doesn't sound like it.
It is not taboo but it is a more recent development that is thought of as advanced technique.

I think that Eugene Levinson's scale book the School of Agility is a good way to see how the third finger can be used and his editions of music like the Franck Sonata and the J.C. Bach Adagio have applications of it that are worth looking into. The most useful applications of the third finger seem to be in fast passages that span a minor third and when you have a slur over three notes in a minor third and you don't want to break the slur by shifting.

In my experience, pivoting with the third finger works for some people better than others. It's really something that you have to practice every day if you're going to use it consistently in your playing. People with big hands tend to do this pretty easily like David Grossman who uses it in all registers, though not as often in the lower positions, and Jeff Bradetich who uses it around the heel of the neck. It seems as though smaller hands don't take this as well and can add more complications to playing in tune, but there are also great players that use it like Satoshi Okamoto who play very in tune and have normal features.

I don't use the third finger in my playing, but I think that it might be worth looking into sometime later since I've seen players that use it very successfully. I think that our bass positions (altered cello positions) are a more secure way of playing for intonation, especially in lower registers because of how far apart each note is. Most cellists will agree that the closed positions on their instrument are both more secure for intonation and better for tone and that extensions are for more elaborate passages on the instrument. There are a lot of cellists that actually prefer to shift than to use extensions for relaxation of the hand. From a physical standpoint, I think that pivoting with the third finger makes a lot more sense than a pivot in which only 1-2-4 are used, because there is less motion going on in the hand from the notes being closer to one another. However, it can cause some stress on the hand if you're not used to using your fingers in that way, especially between the 3rd and 4th fingers who share an extensor muscle, so it's worth introducing this into your playing one step at a time.

is anyone familiar with the italian method of using the 3rd finger in the lower register? from what i have seen it is pretty standard there. i personally use my 3rd in the lower registers (with 2 backing it up) because i get more accurate intonation with half steps (i.e. f# to g) and major 3rds and 6th (i.e. g to b). i think it is similar to the italian style. that's just me and i am certainly no expert!

The point here is that the correct advice for this kid is to forget about bass guitar technique, learn one of the standard methods and if he still has an interest in four finger technique for double bass THEN, he should get one of the books that discuss it like Art Davis' or Tom Gale's. Four finger technique on the double is an advanced technique that has little or nothing to do with bass guitar regardless of how big your hands are, we all have heard that one a thousand times.

Part of playing double bass is being able to use more than one fingering system and if you don't have the discipline to learn one of the foundational methods then you don't have the discipline for the double bass, especially on the classical side.
I am 35.

+1! Forgive me if I am wrong but I seem to sense a reluctance on the part of the OP at being told that he should change what seems to work for him. I emphasize the word "seems" because, while his current technique may suffice for his current repertoire, his teacher is likely taking a longer-term view. It is also not surprising that when using a new, unfamiliar method that his playing seems to suffer in the short-term. That's completely normal and expected.

I started playing about 35 years ago. Along the way, I have had teachers who identified little habits that were hampering my playing efficiency. It sometimes took weeks of constant work to change those habits but, oh, the payoffs! Had I persisted with what seemed to be working fine for me I never would have been able to progress as I have.

My personal approach is to place almost blind faith in a well-chosen teacher and to do it his/her way. That's why you're paying an expert.

is anyone familiar with the italian method of using the 3rd finger in the lower register? from what i have seen it is pretty standard there. i personally use my 3rd in the lower registers (with 2 backing it up) because i get more accurate intonation with half steps (i.e. f# to g) and major 3rds and 6th (i.e. g to b). i think it is similar to the italian style. that's just me and i am certainly no expert!

That topic was recently discussed in the Orchestral Technique forum (maybe search for Bille?).

thanks!

+1! Forgive me if I am wrong but I seem to sense a reluctance on the part of the OP at being told that he should change what seems to work for him. I emphasize the word "seems" because, while his current technique may suffice for his current repertoire, his teacher is likely taking a longer-term view. It is also not surprising that when using a new, unfamiliar method that his playing seems to suffer in the short-term. That's completely normal and expected.

I started playing about 35 years ago. Along the way, I have had teachers who identified little habits that were hampering my playing efficiency. It sometimes took weeks of constant work to change those habits but, oh, the payoffs! Had I persisted with what seemed to be working fine for me I never would have been able to progress as I have.

My personal approach is to place almost blind faith in a well-chosen teacher and to do it his/her way. That's why you're paying an expert.


And this is why we have "Ask a Pro" on TalkBass.com. You are asking me, an "expert" (supposedly). So for all the grand discussion here, some strong opinions and some PC opinions, the "facts" from my experience is that one builds technique over a long period of time. Whether your focus is on electric bass playing or double bass or both, what is primarily important is SOUND production and nuance, inflection, expression. Whether you use four or five or two (like Gary Karr a lot of the time) fingers is not nearly as important as whether you create the sounds you want and those that are expected for the genre. If you are in the orchestra or aspire to an orchestral job, there are certain "clique-like" attitudes and expectations that you must meet. If you don't sit while playing and all the other members of the section do, you may not get the gig. If you come into a heavy metal gig with an acoustic electric bass, you may easily be kicked out of the auditorium! So, it is NOT whether you are playing using four fingers that is important. One must simply identify one's goals, musically, and procede at developing the technique to produce the MUSIC!!! Don't forget, technique is to serve the music. I wish we had this lively discussion about bow technique or French vs German bow, or standing or sitting... but it seems bassists are obsessed with what their left hand is doing when they should be listening to what sound they are making! (If you don't like that gliss, another fingering is needed!)...
So, tho' it's nice to say "I'll just let my teacher tell me..., " in the end of the process YOU adapt what technique YOU are going to. Take advise from many, do TONS of listening and observing, and develop a technique (including ALL aspects, not just fingering) that is personally yours, that you developed from a desire to express yourself and your music ... knowing full well that the music you chose will be "structured" by the society it is reflecting. And the music drives the technique.
Last words: There are people that are stuck in believing there is only one way. There are people that believe there are multiple ways. There are people who have not tried any way.
All people are needed to make music. ;)
PN