Hi Todd,

I had a question regarding playing electric bass in jazz. Since I've started taking playing jazz very seriously in the past 2 years I've had quite a number of people telling me I HAVE to learn how to play double bass to play jazz unless I'm playing fusion or jazzfunk. Almost all of the respected universities and colleges for studying jazz in Canada are bias towards the upright and make it very difficult to study on electric as a focus. I am interested in playing upright and have been practicing it for a several hours a day for the past 8 months but in that short time I'm already beginning to see that my real passion is the electric. I find it all sooo frustrating and I really don't know what to do at this point.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is if it's really as neccessary as what everyone seems to be telling me to play upright if I want to be a jazz player and am I putting myself at a significant disadvantage if I choose to be the best electric player I can possibly become instead?

Sorry if this has been a little longwinded. I also just wanted to say your playing is such an inspiration!

Hi Todd,

I had a question regarding playing electric bass in jazz. Since I've started taking playing jazz very seriously in the past 2 years I've had quite a number of people telling me I HAVE to learn how to play double bass to play jazz unless I'm playing fusion or jazzfunk. Almost all of the respected universities and colleges for studying jazz in Canada are bias towards the upright and make it very difficult to study on electric as a focus. I am interested in playing upright and have been practicing it for a several hours a day for the past 8 months but in that short time I'm already beginning to see that my real passion is the electric. I find it all sooo frustrating and I really don't know what to do at this point.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is if it's really as neccessary as what everyone seems to be telling me to play upright if I want to be a jazz player and am I putting myself at a significant disadvantage if I choose to be the best electric player I can possibly become instead?

Sorry if this has been a little longwinded. I also just wanted to say your playing is such an inspiration!

Dear Shoehorn,

Man...I am SO sorry but I spaced this last month and missed your post and several others. I'm truly sorry....especially now that I've read your question.

Man, can I relate to this.....WOW!! You've come to the right place! Ha!

Here's what I'd like to do....I'd like you to email me at my home email address todd@toddjohnsonmusic.com and give me your phone number and I'll call you on my dime and we'll talk it all through. Cool?? Cool.......

But, the short answer is: You DO NOT have to play upright bass to play jazz. I've proven that....so has Steve Swallow and a bunch of other people.....AND....you DO NOT have to play electric to play fusion or jazz/funk. In "my" opinion this is just short sighted thinking. Jazz and jazz education considers itself "open minded" yet it's really the opposite. Anyway.....

Let me also say this: I LOVE THE UPRIGHT BASS. I LOVE the upright bass community. I'm a PROUD member of the ISB (International Society of Bassists). I played the UB for 7 years and loved it.....but like you I eventually found my voice and it was on electric bass.

Actually, I think learning upright AND electric is good for any serious career minded bass player. But for Colleges and Universities to say you have to play jazz on the upright is sad.

I don't understand why guys can't Major on electric and minor (so to speak) on Upright.....and.....vice versa. I think playing both instruments for EVERYONE is a good thing.

If electric players "have" to learn the upright.....then why don't upright players "have" to learn the electric.....especially since there is a TON more opportunities on electric??? Food for thought.....

I guess I just dislike the labels and the limitations place on us by short sighted people.

Anyway.....now I'm going off.....:spit::mad::help:.....Ha!!;)

The bottom line for me..... BECOME A GREAT MUSICIAN AND YOU CAN PLAY WHATEVER YOU WANT!!

SO......please send me your number and I'll gladly talk you through this OK?

Again.....my apologies for spacing on your thoughtful post. Thanks for your patience with me....

Humbly,

I eventually found my voice and it was on electric bass.

BECOME A GREAT MUSICIAN AND YOU CAN PLAY WHATEVER YOU WANT!!

Pretty much says it all right there. If thats' your voice, then that's your voice. You will have to get used to (as all of us do) of any number of folks NOT hearing your voice in THEIR music or THEIR ensemble.


I always tend to ask this question when these discussions come up and it doesn't really get answered so I'll try again. There are any number of cats out there who double and are VERY successful musicians - John Pat, James Genus, Christian McBride etc etc - but they themselves make a specific choice that they will play upright with some music and electric with some music. Now, they play BOTH axes. An don their records they can play whatever the hell instrument they want on whatever the hell tune they want, right? And since they all do a wide variety of music and play both instruments, I wouldn't assume that they would be classed as "short sighted" or "close minded", right?

So if JP, Chris, James et al decide that on some music the SOUND that they are looking for is upright and are not being ss/cm, why would you think that that was the reason that someone else made the same decision?

Jazz on the upright.. I have played music for over 50 years and jazz & R&B on 40 of that, on the electric bass. Yet the local jazz police will not accept what I do because I don't play upright.. Even though I can play the heads from Donna Lee on down, the changes, solo, chart, read both clefs & transpose for the horns.... Go figure...

Yet the local jazz police will not accept what I do because I don't play upright.. Go figure...
So what rank does John Patittucci have in the local jazz police? Is he like a sergeant or a lieutenant or what?

Pretty much says it all right there. If thats' your voice, then that's your voice. You will have to get used to (as all of us do) of any number of folks NOT hearing your voice in THEIR music or THEIR ensemble.


I always tend to ask this question when these discussions come up and it doesn't really get answered so I'll try again. There are any number of cats out there who double and are VERY successful musicians - John Pat, James Genus, Christian McBride etc etc - but they themselves make a specific choice that they will play upright with some music and electric with some music. Now, they play BOTH axes. And on their records they can play whatever the hell instrument they want on whatever the hell tune they want, right? And since they all do a wide variety of music and play both instruments, I wouldn't assume that they would be classed as "short sighted" or "close minded", right?

So if JP, Chris, James et al decide that on some music the SOUND that they are looking for is upright and are not being ss/cm, why would you think that that was the reason that someone else made the same decision?

HI Ed,

Actually, you and I are in complete agreement.....Those great musicians you mentioned are NOT short sighted or close minded!! NOT EVEN!! JP, Chris, James etc. should, can and have played whatever sound they like the best. Hey, if I could double like those guys I would too!!:D

I'm not talking about an individuals personal choice....I'm mainly referring to Universities etc. telling electric players they have to play upright and/or be an upright major to get the degree etc. or you have to play upright to play jazz. That's my frustration....

And....I TOTALLY agree with your point about "folks NOT hearing our voice in THEIR music or THEIR ensemble. ABSOLUTELY!! Well said....

Hey, I experience that first hand all the time.....that's the chance you take when you make a decision to play one or the other. Steve Swallow is a perfect example of this......he lost a TON of work because of his "switch" to electric.

Anyway......I hope this makes sense. I most definitely am NOT saying that playing upright on standards is short sighted or close minded.....or that you have to play electric on a funk tune etc.

It should be up to the individual musician....or band leader for that matter.

Personally, I LOVE working with an upright player. Anyway....

Like I said...I'm pretty sure we're in agreement....I probably didn't state my case very clearly.

Fascinating topic. I've encountered the "Jazz Nazi™" (I just trademarked that term :D ) mentality in all its' various forms (among them the upright issue) many times in my years of playing.

There definitely is a bias in the jazz community against the electric bass; but I've always found it amusing that electric pianos never seem to be a problem, nor electric guitars even. There exists a presumption among many that it just ain't jazz unless it's upright. Oh, that guy playing the DX7....that's different.

If we're honest with ourselves; a fair amount of it is visual. There a few more iconic "jazz" images than a cat playing an upright bass. Preferably in a cool suit. A slick hat is nice touch too. As recently as last year I was offered a gig to play upright in a show. A tracked show. The fact that I don't play upright was completely irrelevant. Just had to fake it and have "the look"

Also, last year I did some sessions for a trumpet player recording some standards. I had done some other tracks before he got to the studio with my Wendler electrocoustic. He came in, listened to the other stuff being mixed and even commented that he liked the tone I was getting. "What kind of pickup are you using on your bass?" he asked. "Sounds really smooth."

Of course his face dropped when I showed him that it was an electric:eek: bass. It took a while to convince him to try recording with the thing he liked 60 seconds ago. This experience is not unique either.

FWIW, most of the more enlightened players I've worked with only care if you can play and other concerns be damned. One older (71) pianist I work with actually prefers electric because he says he can hear the attack and pitch more clearly and he likes that.

I've also found it amusing that the music of jazz which (to me) at its' heart is about innovation, taking chances, living in the moment, experimentation and trying new ideas has some of its' most vocal supporters insist that it be done the same way forever with nothing changing.

Will you get more work if you can play upright along with electric? Yes. You'll get even more work if you can play electric bass mediocre and sing fairly well. I can't count how many gigs I've done where vocals were wanted/needed. I've been asked about upright maybe a dozen or so times.

Of course, it should be about the music anyway. If you want work; this isn't really the best industry to work in anyway.

Anyway, IMO do what you do and do it well and with passion. If you can do that, people will want to work with you. Maybe not the Jazz Nazis™, but I can do without them.

Fascinating topic. I've encountered the "Jazz Nazi™" (I just trademarked that term :D ) mentality in all its' various forms (among them the upright issue) many times in my years of playing.

There definitely is a bias in the jazz community against the electric bass; but I've always found it amusing that electric pianos never seem to be a problem, nor electric guitars even. There exists a presumption among many that it just ain't jazz unless it's upright. Oh, that guy playing the DX7....that's different.

If we're honest with ourselves; a fair amount of it is visual. There a few more iconic "jazz" images than a cat playing an upright bass. Preferably in a cool suit. A slick hat is nice touch too. As recently as last year I was offered a gig to play upright in a show. A tracked show. The fact that I don't play upright was completely irrelevant. Just had to fake it and have "the look"

Also, last year I did some sessions for a trumpet player recording some standards. I had done some other tracks before he got to the studio with my Wendler electrocoustic. He came in, listened to the other stuff being mixed and even commented that he liked the tone I was getting. "What kind of pickup are you using on your bass?" he asked. "Sounds really smooth."

Of course his face dropped when I showed him that it was an electric:eek: bass. It took a while to convince him to try recording with the thing he liked 60 seconds ago. This experience is not unique either.

FWIW, most of the more enlightened players I've worked with only care if you can play and other concerns be damned. One older (71) pianist I work with actually prefers electric because he says he can hear the attack and pitch more clearly and he likes that.

I've also found it amusing that the music of jazz which (to me) at its' heart is about innovation, taking chances, living in the moment, experimentation and trying new ideas has some of its' most vocal supporters insist that it be done the same way forever with nothing changing.

Will you get more work if you can play upright along with electric? Yes. You'll get even more work if you can play electric bass mediocre and sing fairly well. I can't count how many gigs I've done where vocals were wanted/needed. I've been asked about upright maybe a dozen or so times.

Of course, it should be about the music anyway. If you want work; this isn't really the best industry to work in anyway.

Anyway, IMO do what you do and do it well and with passion. If you can do that, people will want to work with you. Maybe not the Jazz Nazis™, but I can do without them.

Marcus,

Extremely well said my friend!!

Hey, PLEASE tell Rosa Avila that her "Uncle Todd" says hello. You're fortunate to be playing with such a great drummer!!

Thanks again for your great input!!

Marcus,

Extremely well said my friend!!

Hey, PLEASE tell Rosa Avila that her "Uncle Todd" says hello. You're fortunate to be playing with such a great drummer!!

Thanks again for your great input!!

Small world! Yeah, Rosa is great. We just did a jazz gig last night in fact with a great trumpet player named Jay Daversa (most people know him as the guy who played the theme on "The Waltons"). Electric bass and keyboards and it was cool...to me it was a jazz gig. We were playing standards, trying different feels on tunes, breaking things up, everybody blowing....to me that's jazz whatever your axe is, y' know?

I'll be sure to say hi to Rosa when I see her tonight!

Small world! Yeah, Rosa is great. We just did a jazz gig last night in fact with a great trumpet player named Jay Daversa (most people know him as the guy who played the theme on "The Waltons"). Electric bass and keyboards and it was cool...to me it was a jazz gig. We were playing standards, trying different feels on tunes, breaking things up, everybody blowing....to me that's jazz whatever your axe is, y' know?

I'll be sure to say hi to Rosa when I see her tonight!

AWESOME!! Thanks Marcus!! Yeah, Jay Daversa is wonderful. Congrats!!

the guy with the rodes playes the bass now...and I loss that gig.... Go figure! ;)

I think I'll chime in to mention that I think there are more opportunities these days on upright, rather than electric... I'm not sure if Todd was referring to the additional opportunities being for doublers rather than strictly upright players, but in general 95% of "acoustic" jazz gigs seem to want upright. The sad thing to me is that electric bass can sound so sweet and expressive at relatively low volumes... I think the instrument got a bad rap partly because of its role in very loud pop and rock music, and in my opinion, loud music destroys musical subtlety as well as eardrums. I recently learned (from the book, "This Is Your Brain On Music"), that the human ear actually compresses sound above a certain threshold so as to protect it from damage! I think this is partly why, to me at least, really loud music sounds so un-musical. The bias is an unfortunate situation for us electric players, but we must press on! Perhaps being shut out of many gigs will give us the impetus to be more creative and leader-oriented in our pursuits.

Well I think it would definetely be more beneficial to study upright in college. Because the musical concepts are the same for both instruments, the difference is the technique and sound. And the technique for and electric bass is a lot easier than upright, so to me it makes sense to get the assistance in what you need,especially when great upright teacher are few and far between, and when you can work out your own technique and style for electric. Now that being said, I think that colleges should not just say, you must play x or y or z, but in fact you must play xyandz.

I think I'll chime in to mention that I think there are more opportunities these days on upright, rather than electric... I'm not sure if Todd was referring to the additional opportunities being for doublers rather than strictly upright players, but in general 95% of "acoustic" jazz gigs seem to want upright. The sad thing to me is that electric bass can sound so sweet and expressive at relatively low volumes... I think the instrument got a bad rap partly because of its role in very loud pop and rock music, and in my opinion, loud music destroys musical subtlety as well as eardrums. I recently learned (from the book, "This Is Your Brain On Music"), that the human ear actually compresses sound above a certain threshold so as to protect it from damage! I think this is partly why, to me at least, really loud music sounds so un-musical. The bias is an unfortunate situation for us electric players, but we must press on! Perhaps being shut out of many gigs will give us the impetus to be more creative and leader-oriented in our pursuits.

Hi Kim,

Thanks for your input......What I tried to say was that there are "overall" more opportunities (it seems) for electric bass....counting rock, pop, funk, country etc....Obviously "jazz" and "classical are "primarily" acoustic bass. Understood.

Your other comments are "right on" IMHO!!!

Well I think it would definetely be more beneficial to study upright in college. Because the musical concepts are the same for both instruments, the difference is the technique and sound. And the technique for and electric bass is a lot easier than upright, so to me it makes sense to get the assistance in what you need,especially when great upright teacher are few and far between, and when you can work out your own technique and style for electric. Now that being said, I think that colleges should not just say, you must play x or y or z, but in fact you must play xyandz.

Hi Rockman,

Respectfully (and with a gentle tone).....I'll have to disagree with you on part of your post. Your idea is that we should "study upright because its more difficult and good teachers are hard to find" and that we can then "work out our own technique and style for electric". Sorry my friend....but this doesn't make sense to me.

Getting a good sound on ANY instrument is a difficult thing. Fair enough??? As you know....upright and electric technique are polar opposites. It's my opinion that one is not harder than the other....they're just different......and studying one and then just "working out your own technique" on the other doesn't make sense to me.

However, we are in TOTAL agreement when you say "I think that colleges should not just say, you must play x or y or z, but in fact you must play xyandz.[/QUOTE]

Well said Rockman..........

I think it's a good thing for college music majors to play a bit of both. But I think they should have the option of which one they want to have as their "main voice" and major on. That's my point....It's not an upright vs. electric debate.....and I'm afraid that's what this will turn into.

Anyway.....Thanks again for you input and opinion!! I appreciate and value your participation!!

Great things being said in this thread, I truly agree with everything that Marcus and Todd have said. The thing about the IMAGE of the upright bass is an important thing to take into consideration a lot of the time, because the thing that a lot of learned musicians overlook is the aspect of image in hiring and performing. I myself am a doubler who has found his primary voice on the electric, but is ready and willing to bust out the upright when the gig calls for it. And more often than not, I find myself lugging the monster around town than the BG, not because of the musicians that I play with (they all dig my playing on electric), but because of the people that hire me. I play a bunch of house parties, dinner parties, small events and the like, and most people have a very specific image in mind for what they want when they hire a jazz band. Playing pleasant background music is easy enough - you could just put on CD and that would essentially do the same thing. You have to create an image too, since that's part of the whole live music appeal. I prefer electric on my own gigs, such as club dates or whatever, but for the private functions, upright seems to be the best choice.

One of the things that all electric bassists who play jazz need to keep in mind is that the pocket that's created by electric bass is going to be different than that created by an upright bass. A lot of drummers are used to playing with upright bassists, and its going to be a shift for them to adjust to how an electric bass sits in the groove. There is necessarily going to be less thump and more sustain. That is, unless you're trying to emulate an upright bass all the time by palm-muting everything, and then I ask the question, why don't you just play upright? But I digress.

I think a reason why electric bass is "looked down upon" in jazz circles is because, quite frankly, there are a lot more amateur (not bad, just non-professional) musicians playing electric bass than amateur musicians playing upright bass. It takes more dedication to technique to play an upright bass versus an electric bass because of all of the health hazards involved as well as the intonation issue, and so you have more amateurs playing electric. They might therefore not have the ideal grasp of a suitable tone/groove for playing in an ensemble setting an so, in addition to the "LOUD MUSIC" association of electric bass, many purists and jazzheads will necessarily turn their noses up to the instrument as a whole.

What I never quite figured out was why electric guitar is a perfectly acceptable instrument in jazz circles, even on some "acoustic" gigs, but not electric bass guitar. Go figure.

Well I think it would definetely be more beneficial to study upright in college. Because the musical concepts are the same for both instruments, the difference is the technique and sound. And the technique for and electric bass is a lot easier than upright, so to me it makes sense to get the assistance in what you need,especially when great upright teacher are few and far between, and when you can work out your own technique and style for electric. Now that being said, I think that colleges should not just say, you must play x or y or z, but in fact you must play xyandz.

What Todd said regarding this matter I agree with, but I also would like to add some things. Yes, technique in many ways could be easier on electric versus upright - its far less physically intensive, you don't have to worry about intonation issues, learning arco technique isn't necessary, etc, etc. However, you're making the rather incorrect assumption that technique is transferrable from instrument to instrument - if you play upright, you supposedly can play electric just as well. That's like saying "if you can play french horn, you can play trumpet just as well", or "if you can play clarinet, you can play sax just as well." The former instruments in these instances, french horn, clarinet and upright bass all have more technical hurdles to overcome than their counterparts, but it would be ridiculous to assume that if you can play one you can play the other with the same technical finesse. They're all different instruments with different characteristics that need to be learned, controlled and mastered on their own, no vicariously through the study of another instrument. You can easily tell an upright bass player when they play electric, versus a doubler - somebody who has studied and plays both.

It is funny when the "acoustic purists" play live, there is almost always some form of amplification, either on the upright, a mic on the horns, or as stated earlier, electric guitar.

However, you're making the rather incorrect assumption that technique is transferrable from instrument to instrument - if you play upright, you supposedly can play electric just as well. That's like saying "if you can play french horn, you can play trumpet just as well", I think you are misinterpretting my post. Most people I know who play both started on electric, and have had a few years of experience on that before starting to go into upright, myself included. What I meant to say was that for a serious doubler, it makes more sense to study on upright because of the time and experience difference between the two, and a few years makes a big difference. Now this all changes if the person in question started on an upright or started both at the exact same time. I guess the assumption that I'm making is most of us have more experience playing electric and don't need the help as much.

*disclaimer*Just want to mention that I may have picked an unfortunate name. I made this account in those years when I hadn't started playing upright or jazz seriously*end*

The guys already said it all. IMHO, excelent points of view already fill this thread

Besides...
you can always use a flatwound strings fretless electric bass, that will surely sounds more like an upright bass, than a fretted roundwound-stringed electric one.

Also, you can try acoustic-electric bass for a more approach.

Acoustic fretless bass, with flatwound strings, mic'ed rather than piezo p-up will more likely sound like an upright bass, than a real URB itself. Plus, you probably get more complete sound with more mid-range and high-range adding some % of the piezo pickups signal to the mix.

The guys already said it all. IMHO, excelent points of view already fill this thread

Besides...
you can always use a flatwound strings fretless electric bass, that will surely sounds more like an upright bass, than a fretted roundwound-stringed electric one.

Also, you can try acoustic-electric bass for a more approach.

Acoustic fretless bass, with flatwound strings, mic'ed rather than piezo p-up will more likely sound like an upright bass, than a real URB itself. Plus, you probably get more complete sound with more mid-range and high-range adding some % of the piezo pickups signal to the mix.

Very good point, This kind of takes us back to the image thing, because a lot of people aren't going to be able to tell the sonic differences between a Rob Allen type Bass or an ABG and an Upright Bass, but they can see the difference.

Hi Todd,

I had a question regarding playing electric bass in jazz. Since I've started taking playing jazz very seriously in the past 2 years I've had quite a number of people telling me I HAVE to learn how to play double bass to play jazz unless I'm playing fusion or jazzfunk. Almost all of the respected universities and colleges for studying jazz in Canada are bias towards the upright and make it very difficult to study on electric as a focus. I am interested in playing upright and have been practicing it for a several hours a day for the past 8 months but in that short time I'm already beginning to see that my real passion is the electric. I find it all sooo frustrating and I really don't know what to do at this point.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is if it's really as neccessary as what everyone seems to be telling me to play upright if I want to be a jazz player and am I putting myself at a significant disadvantage if I choose to be the best electric player I can possibly become instead?

Sorry if this has been a little longwinded. I also just wanted to say your playing is such an inspiration!

Hi. I would disregard the comments of you "have" to play upright bass unless you're doing fusion or funk. Perhaps the people are well-meaning, but that doesn't mean they're right. Truth is, play what you want to play. If it motivates you to play electric bass, then do that. You can play electric bass in many different contexts, and there is examples of electric bass in so many kinds of music. It is hardly a "wasted effort/wasted time" to play electric bass.

Even when I played in big band jazz group and the small combos, I played what I wanted to play (upright or electric) when I wanted to play it. I feel fortunate for that. I wish everyone would have that same freedom and experience.

With regard to the schools, I'm not sure you're going to change the requirements, but it's not a terrible situation, even if it is not the ideal one. You may have to play some upright, but you might find that it makes you a better electric bass player to do so. Maybe not. You may become the best electric bass player you can be by spending some time on the upright. I generally try not to listen to the electric bass naysayers, but if you have grades that depend on it, I'd probably continue to do what I had to do to get through the class/course, even if that means upright bass time.

You may have to play the upright to get some grades, but In the long term, you'll have a lot of time to define yourself as an electric bass player if/as you want to be identified as such.

To the OP: I hear what your saying. When going to the university back in the late 70s I also had to play upright if I wanted to major in music.

I had studied upright in grade school 4 - 8 grade and dropped it in Jr Hi in favor of electric. I played electric all through Hi school in Vocal Jazz and Stage Band. Also in high school I played the weekend school dance circuit every weekend. After hi school came Top 40 gigs which was strictly electric for rock/pop.

I went into trade school and then the work force, putting music on the back burner for a couple of years. I decided to go back to school to double major, one in music, because I wanted to know more theory. I was told to be in the music school I had to take upright. I figured OK - I played it once, if I practiced like a banshee I could probably get fairly good in a couple of years.

Wrong. I practiced about six hours everyday on upright alone taking privately, taking orchestra, ensemble and Vocal jazz. I was also in Jazz band, but that required electric. I worked on DB until I had blisters under my blisters. My private teacher bawled me out for playing the school upright in the rain. When I asked what she was talking about she said the strings were rusted. I said "No, that's blood."

The technique on the two is so far apart I found one didn't supplement the other at all. Playing one doesn't hurt playing the other either. My point is it takes a LOT of practicing to be able to play upright well. It takes a long time to see improvement. After two years I put DB down again because it was taking so much dedicated time, all my other studies were suffering.

I don't want to be negative or discourage anyone from picking up DB. This was my experience. Maybe I'm a bonehead. I wish to hell I would have never stopped playing DB in the first place - it's was damn hard for me to pick it up again. By the end of the first year I could pizz well, knew the fretboard well enough to go play out jazz gigs and get some calls. But I couldn't bow very well or really progress in the orchestra.

The jazzers I play with now are a couple old(er) cats and the piano player is constantly telling me I should buy an upright. He has one stored at his house and I play it when I go over there. But I'm still not to the point where I want to chowder around on that beast.

To be a complete jazz player you may well want to pick up DB, but you don't have to. It has its own sound, is another tool and a beautiful instrument -- but it is a physical challenge to play.
You don't have to go to school - you can start going professional now and just start getting all the gigs you can in the genres that interest you. Maybe look into joining the union.

If you do decide to go to school maybe major on keyboard, as this will really help you out in theory classes. It may make you a more valuable player once you're out in the workforce. Helpful for songwriting.
Or maybe major in voice. Definitely an asset in the workforce if you can sing -- at least hold competent backup parts. Will Lee says he gets way more vocal calls than bass calls and earns more money singing. It will also help your bass playing/soloing if you can sing the lines your playing.

Have a great path whatever you decide!
Thanks for letting me horn in, Todd!

Fascinating topic. I've encountered the "Jazz Nazi™" (I just trademarked that term :D ) mentality in all its' various forms (among them the upright issue) many times in my years of playing.... Maybe not the Jazz Nazis™, but I can do without them.

I'm getting confused; apparently there are Jazz Police AND Jazz Nazis. And if they decide that what they want to HEAR is upright bass and what they don't want to HEAR is electric bass, they are only concerned with the "visual" and lack "innovative" thinking and are "unenlightened". Have got that right so far?

I'm getting confused; apparently there are Jazz Police AND Jazz Nazis. And if they decide that what they want to HEAR is upright bass and what they don't want to HEAR is electric bass, they are only concerned with the "visual" and lack "innovative" thinking and are "unenlightened". Have got that right so far?

Well, Jazz Nazi™ is my trademarked term so you owe me $5

Second, you can oversimplify and dismiss (and be confused) if you want; that's your right.

If you wanna look beneath that though it refers to someone who has preconceived ideas about how things must be no matter what in order for it to be "real" jazz.

Since when did the instrumentation determine whether or not it's jazz?

Maybe it hasn't happened to you, but I've encountered MANY instances of upright players being chosen for the look. Guys whose time and pitch completely suck, but they will be used anyway because it SIMPLY MUST be upright or it's not jazz.

More than once I've encountered guy who loved the sound of my Wendler until they saw it was electric and suddenly that was not good enough.

So yes; there are a lot of musicians who hear with their eyes. If you've not encountered this before where are you living exactly?

Where am I living? What part of NYC is confusing to you. If it helps any, I'm on 34th Ave. in Jackson Heights. Although there are only about 10 or 11 bassists (well, upright bassists although I know Nate doubles, prolly a few other guys too) in my neighborhood.

Anyhoo, the whole idea that the only reason somebody has for not wanting to use electric bass is because they have a preconceived notion about what is and is not jazz seems to be the default preconceived notion of most electric bassists that want to play jazz. Sure, there are morons out in the world (although, I gotta say from your description, Branson might have a higher incidence than many other locations), you (specifically and many others generally) seem to be saying that ANYONE who states that specific preference is full of sh*t and is making a decision based on everything thing else BUT musical reasons.

Which is why I brought up high profile guys that double. One, because their careers are at a point that they can say "I'm gonna just play electric on this recording" or "I'm just going to play upright on this recording" and Two, because they have developed fairly distinctive voices on each instrument (or are you arguing that electric bass and double bass are basically the same?) enough so that people will hire them specifically because of the way they sound on a certain instrument. What I find confusing is the argument that, using reason One, they themselves are not making a decision based on musical reasons when they CHOOSE to play upright on a recording/gig of certain styles of music or, using reason Two, when someone hires them to play a specific instrument on a recording/gig of certain styles of music.

To really pick nits, take yer John Pattituci and yer Wayne Shorter. JP plays both BG and DB at a pretty high level, Wayne has played in any number of bands, at a pretty high level, that have had upright players and electric players. You ask anybody else in the world, these two guys would appear to have no prejudice against electric bass playing any kind of music. And yet on the recent tours of Wayne's quartet, there was no bass guitar, there was no switching by a doubler. JP just played upright bass. Now me, in my apparent stupidity and naivete, thought that's because they wanted to hear that specific instrument in that specific music. But instead, it's that whole Nazi Police thing, right?


Or is it one of those things where it's always a stupid and prejudiced person making that decision (no electric bass in my band) except when it isn't?


I see from yer siggy that you play with Andy; I don't know how much turnover there is with the band, but about 8 years ago I heard the Xmas show at Westbury Music Fair (theater in the round!) as a guest of a buddy of mine, Eric Halvorson. Apparently he and Matt Wilson (who went as well) went to the U of Iowa with the cat who was playing either kit or percussion (a little unclear to me, I don't even remember the cat's name). At any rate, if he's still around say Hi from Eric.

That would be Tom Dostal; he's still there. I'll say hi for ya.

As for where you live, I didn't mean physically.

As for your comments about my comments; please read a bit more carefully. I never said ANYONE; I merely said it happens. You chose to take it that way for some reason.

There is a bias in the jazz world against the electric bass. If you're unable or unwilling to see that then I guess we're done. Often times the bias has little or nothing to do with musical considerations. If you're unable or unwilling to see that then I guess again we're done.

For some reason you seem Hell-bent on reading more into it and taking it to a hostile/accusatory place. If you wish to discuss things in an atmosphere of mutual respect that would be fine. If not, I'll pass thanks.

You speak from your experience, I speak from mine. I'm not sure how that makes it to "accusatory/hostile".

It's hard for me to countenance that you are making exception ("I never said ANYONE; I merely said it happens.") when you make sweeping generalizations ("There is a bias in the jazz world against the electric bass."). Again, that sounds like "People are biased except when they aren't."

As I said above, we both speak from our own experiences. Your experience has been that someone likes the way you sound until they see an electric bass and that you get hired to hold an upright to a soundtrack (to pick only two examples from what I will be willing to grant is a boundless motherlode). Please understand, I am not saying that your experience is wrong or invalid. But you should understand that just because it is your experience, it is NOT the totality of the world.

You postulate that the only reason that I have for disagreeing with your world view is that I am "unable or unwilling"; you don't seem to be willing to grant that perhaps my experience has given me a different world view. You don't seem to be willing to grant that a different view of the world is available.

The reasons that Chris Tarry, Janek Gwizalda, Mike Pope, Matt Garrison, Kip Reed etc etc get hired to play gigs up here is the same reason that Peter Washington, Ben Allison, Neal Miner, Jon Hebert, Gerald Cannon get hired to play gigs. And that's because of the way they sound, not what the instrument they play looks like. Now I'm not trying to be either accusatory (what exactly was I accusing you of?) or hostile when I ask - if someone hires Peter Washington for a gig instead of Chris Tarry, why do you assume it's because of non-musical reasons ("There is a bias in the jazz world against electric bass. If you are unable or unwilling to see that...")? Why would it not be for the MOST musical of reasons i.e. I like the way THAT person playing THAT instrument sounds. I want THAT sound in my music and my ensemble.

If you've never seen guys get hired because they own an upright bass, despite the fact that they are lame players, then I don't know what to tell you. A bias exists. Not everyone has it, but it exists. You can (and seem to) reject its' existence. OK, there you go.

"If you've never seen guys get hired because they own an upright bass, despite the fact that they are lame players, then I don't know what to tell you." How about this - "Gee, that isn't my experience." Where I live, lame players tend not to get hired (by other musicians). Period.

Marcus, blind tunneling mole rats exist. But not everybody has one. In fact very, very, very few people have them. The ratio of people having blind tunneling mole rats to those who don't is infinitesimally small. I'm sorry if you live in an area where 5 or 6 mole rat collectors live. But that still doesn't mean that everybody everywhere collects mole rats. It also doesn't mean that if somebody somewhere is collecting something, what they are collecting is blind tunneling mole rats.

Just because people around you have a certain attitude doesn't mean that it exists throughout "the jazz world". As I said earlier, stupid people exist and they say and do stupid things. But they, in my experience, are the exception rather than the rule.

Looks like we've had different experiences; there you go.

Not everybody has seen a mole rat either even though they exist (where did that come from?) By your own words, you admit things exist whether or not you have personally had any exposure.

That was my point from the beginning. There is a bias in the jazz "world" against the electric. It exists. Maybe you haven't seen it. Good for you. It still exists. I've seen it all over the country. I've seen it overseas (albeit less). It exists.

That is my point; it exists. What is yours?

That is my point; it exists. What is yours?

That because something exists in a limited form, in a finite locale, doesn't mean that it can be generalized to the world at large.

There was a funny little sociological (but somewhat unscientific) experiment concerning bias and its perception, primarily racial bias. Researchers chose from a group of African American and Caucasian teenagers of both genders. They set up a task - go into a mall and ask strangers for change for a dollar so that you can call your mother and tell her you'll be late getting home. Everybody got a dollar and off they went. The whole thing was filmed and the results were pretty interesting - there was a whole section about the way body language and timbre of voice influenced response. The results were somewhat unsurprising, given the state of race relations in this country; more white teenagers got change than black teenagers. The REALLY interesting part came from the interviews; almost to a person when the African American teenagers were interviewed, their personal feelings were that in every instance, the reason that they were unable to get change for their dollar was that the person they were asking was racially prejudiced. However, when reviewing the film, many of the persons who declined to give change to them also declined to give change to the white teenagers. In a particularly telling clip, one of the teenagers talking about a man refusing to give him change and describing his manner as dismissive and arrogant and superior etc. (in voiceover) while the film clip shows the same subject's encounter with a teenager of each race displaying exactly the same body language, vocal timbre, language etc. And in the interview with the subject after the experiment (why didn't you give the kids change) he said that he didn't give anybody change because he doesn't carry around coins (and pulling his pants pockets out at that point to show the fact).

The point being that, even though racial prejudice exists in this country, not every thing (perceptually for you) negative that happens is because of prejudice. Sometimes people just don't have change for a dollar.

And sometimes they just like the way upright sounds.

sometimes they just like the way upright sounds.

Yes, sometimes they do.

And sometimes the way it sounds and they way it's played don't matter at all.

These can both be true, you know...which would mean a bias exists. Quod erat demonstrandum

Bear in mind it was you that made it seem I was suggesting it happens "all the time" or something along those lines. I never commented about how often it occurs, just that it does.

EDIT: FWIW, it is pretty obvious you and I disagree on this subject. There does not seem to be anything constructive to be gained by continuing this.

EDIT: FWIW, it is pretty obvious you and I disagree on this subject. There does not seem to be anything constructive to be gained by continuing this.

Hi Marcus and Ed,

Yeah, let's agree to disagree......Cool?? Cool......:cool:

But, thanks for your input......

Me?? I'm gonna practice!!:D

Thanks!!

Very good point, This kind of takes us back to the image thing, because a lot of people aren't going to be able to tell the sonic differences between a Rob Allen type Bass or an ABG and an Upright Bass, but they can see the difference.

And that's why i only work with blind musicians :p

I am so glad I live in a city (it's small so that may make a difference I suppose) where I can play my 5 string, active, fretted bass for all my gigs - jazz to rock. Yeah, I suppose a different bass might sound better but I find I can get some nice variations in tone by choosing passive, active, changing my right hand placement, etc.

I used to try to have a bass for every gig, but really, I was the only one who cared. Everyone I play with right now likes my sound and when I don't worry about gear, I have more time to become a better musician.

I used to try to have a bass for every gig, but really, I was the only one who cared. Everyone I play with right now likes my sound and when I don't worry about gear, I have more time to become a better musician.

+1
I find myself either GASing or learning music, I can't do both at the same time.

I just got back from playing at Montreux and Umbria with Dave Sanborn. Because of the difficulty of traveling with an upright, and the fact that the new tour manager didn't advance the gigs properly, I ended up having to play my BSX Allegro instead of my upright. A fine instrument in it's own right. The relevant fact is that, when we were discussing the logistics the TM made the comment that "the music calls for EITHER an upright or a stick bass". Of course, the fact that I was being told what instrument was appropriate for the music was an insult to my intelligence and musical sensibility, but more than that I was bugged that there is such a pervasive misconception that a stick bass is actually a SONIC and MUSICAL substitute for an upright. It looks more like one and it's possible to approach it more like one, but it's an electric instrument. It's not an acoustic bass. Stand an electric on your lap and it's "upright". In that case, the promoter will be pissed, but it could sound fine. I personally hate playing jazz gigs on electric bass. But it's an idiomatic issue. If I play with Mike Stern, I play electric. His music has some idiomatic uniqueness. It's not "acoustic jazz". It is what it is, so to speak. Even when we're swinging, it's a different thing. But when I play with Joe Locke and Jeff Watts, I'm hating life if I don't have an upright bass. For me, it's because playing that music on electric is a matter of simulating some of the characteristics of an upright on electric. So it's like a soprano singer trying to sound like an alto. Being able to be musical, and being able to speak with your own voice, aren't the same thing. So if you don't play upright and you're on an ostensibly acoustic jazz gig, you try to speak with your voice. If that voice is an electric bass there's no reason to feel like it's less musically relevant that an acoustic among open-minded musicians who are legitimately putting making any kind of music at the top of the priority list...but to a group of jazz musicians, the electric is going to be viewed as something to be tolerated at best in most cases. As great has Jaco was, there's a reason that he was probably never hired to sub for Ron Carter in VSOP. There will be cases where you either play upright, or you don't get the gig...just because that's the way it is. That's nothing to be ashamed of. You just make the choice to accept that you don't get those gigs. You're not going to get every gig no matter what you do.

Just owning an upright and "half-assing" your way around it in order to get more gigs is actually not so inappropriate in my opinion. The music is the music. The physical act of playing isn't what makes you a good or bad player. On an acoustic bass, the likelihood of the bass being the musical bottleneck is pretty high. So if you're able to overcome the instrument to the degree that the music gets out of you, what more do you need to accomplish? In tune, good sound, musically relevant, part of the whole. What more is there?

Well said!

I just got back from playing at Montreux and Umbria with Dave Sanborn. Because of the difficulty of traveling with an upright, and the fact that the new tour manager didn't advance the gigs properly, I ended up having to play my BSX Allegro instead of my upright. A fine instrument in it's own right. The relevant fact is that, when we were discussing the logistics the TM made the comment that "the music calls for EITHER an upright or a stick bass". Of course, the fact that I was being told what instrument was appropriate for the music was an insult to my intelligence and musical sensibility, but more than that I was bugged that there is such a pervasive misconception that a stick bass is actually a SONIC and MUSICAL substitute for an upright. It looks more like one and it's possible to approach it more like one, but it's an electric instrument. It's not an acoustic bass. Stand an electric on your lap and it's "upright". In that case, the promoter will be pissed, but it could sound fine. I personally hate playing jazz gigs on electric bass. But it's an idiomatic issue. If I play with Mike Stern, I play electric. His music has some idiomatic uniqueness. It's not "acoustic jazz". It is what it is, so to speak. Even when we're swinging, it's a different thing. But when I play with Joe Locke and Jeff Watts, I'm hating life if I don't have an upright bass. For me, it's because playing that music on electric is a matter of simulating some of the characteristics of an upright on electric. So it's like a soprano singer trying to sound like an alto. Being able to be musical, and being able to speak with your own voice, aren't the same thing. So if you don't play upright and you're on an ostensibly acoustic jazz gig, you try to speak with your voice. If that voice is an electric bass there's no reason to feel like it's less musically relevant that an acoustic among open-minded musicians who are legitimately putting making any kind of music at the top of the priority list...but to a group of jazz musicians, the electric is going to be viewed as something to be tolerated at best in most cases. As great has Jaco was, there's a reason that he was probably never hired to sub for Ron Carter in VSOP. There will be cases where you either play upright, or you don't get the gig...just because that's the way it is. That's nothing to be ashamed of. You just make the choice to accept that you don't get those gigs. You're not going to get every gig no matter what you do.

Just owning an upright and "half-assing" your way around it in order to get more gigs is actually not so inappropriate in my opinion. The music is the music. The physical act of playing isn't what makes you a good or bad player. On an acoustic bass, the likelihood of the bass being the musical bottleneck is pretty high. So if you're able to overcome the instrument to the degree that the music gets out of you, what more do you need to accomplish? In tune, good sound, musically relevant, part of the whole. What more is there?

Thanks Mike.....I appreciate your opinion and your thoughtful, articulate post. Well done!!

Mike - have you tried the Czech Ease?

Ed,
I've played one or two and like the concept. The ones I played were OK...they were raw...but I've been told that if you buy one, they set it up to be as similar to your main bass as possible. I imagine that's a plus. One problem that tour managers often site, and it's valid but sad, is that many airlines take an official position on weight/size that CAN exempt them having to take it at any price. Fact is, some airlines won't take it simply because it's a bass. It's on their list of banned checked items, regardless of size. If they really take that stance, you're screwed. You don't have a leg to stand on. You can kick and scream and write letters and whatever. But you won't get around the fact that the bass isn't going to the next gig. Then what do you do with it? You have to freight it for THOUSANDS of dollars! Try to get reimbursed for that! That letter from the AF of M that was floating around was really a joke. If you've ever actually tried to use it on an airline..."I have this letter...LOOK", and they respond, "Oh yeah..that was overturned." Then what do you do? If you get the right person it can work out. Our production manager told me he once simply told the check-in girl that it was a viola. She just didn't know any better. But a tour manager can't plan a tour with those variables in the picture. Getting off the subject here...sorry.

Another point, just for fun discussion, is that there are many electric only players who believe that what you're playing funk/slapping that it's got to be 4 string bass. I've even had that discussion with James, who sounds great on 5 or 6 or whatever. But last we discussed, he was of the mind that there's something that the 4 string has to offer that a 6 doesn't. You can GET it from a 6, but typically it's origin is with the 4 string and that instrument lends itself to the idiom. I definitely agree. When I'm playing with a funky drummer I tend to play more simple and funky by default on a 4 string. There are many down sides, but it's an interesting phenomenon.

Most cats I know tell them it's a cello and that seems to work. Couple guys post here, Marco Panascia in particular, travel a LOT and it seems to be working out for them. I don't know if you know Ray Parker? He uses the Alter Ego and has pretty good things to say about it. The model he's got breaks down (neck folds), so it's even over head friendly.

We may get to a point that Phil Palombi's idea (http://www.rentabass.com/) will be the only way to travel and play...

As great has Jaco was, there's a reason that he was probably never hired to sub for Ron Carter in VSOP.

An excellent point and (perhaps) a chance to revisit the original topic and maybe clarify myself a bit.

I think Mikes' example is completely true and valid. I think it's also true of the reverse. Disregarding the fact that it was his band, I don't think Ron would have been called to sub in Word of Mouth for pretty much the same reasons. It's not the musically appropriate choice.

Perhaps I put it inelegantly, but choosing an instrument for musical reasons (like for example an upright bass for a straight ahead gig) is not an example of the bias I was referring to.

Perhaps a better way to express it is the attitude (and I've seen it all of the world, not just "in a finite locale"...unless by that you mean the civilized world ;)) that the upright bass is innately, inherently more musical and "legit" than the electric; and by extension those whose play are as well.

If I was called to play a Motown tribute show (actually I was); I would absolutely use my P bass with flats. That is the musically appropriate choice. If it was a straight ahead gig or perhaps to make the analogy more direct, a 1940's big band tribute show I would absolutely expect the bassist to be playing an upright. Again, that is the appropriate musical choice.

If however, I saw a bassist in the Motown show using a graphite neck 7 string piezo equipped bass...well, I'd be skeptical at first yes. But after hearing him/her if he was able to cop the feel and tone and vibe of the genre, then I'd say "Well, I wouldn't have chosen that but he seems to make it work."

Or an example that I've encountered many time of doing a jazz gig and having some guy (interestingly usually the younger players and not the older ones) come up after and say something like "Man, I really dig your playing, blah, blah, blah...when are you going to get serious and play the upright?" - or even better "The real bass?"

The manifestation of the bias being that even though we're using the same notes, the same chords and performing the same musical functions, it's just inherently more valid on upright regardless of the actual performance in question. It happens.

I think that almost 60 years after it hit the scene, the electric is still struggling to be "taken seriously" within a lot of the jazz community. I don't take issue (I do it myself) with guys who make choice on instrumentation based on what is musically called for. What I do take issue with are those who presume that one instrument/voice is inherently more valid. The Jazz Nazis™.

Anyway, there it is...now I gotta go practice myself.

Oh hey guys, OP here.

Wow, is my first impression here. Talk about a plethora of great advice about this issue and all of it from great working professionals too! I've read all the posts and thank you very very much for the advice.

Sorry if this is kind of brief, I'm in a bit of a rush and I need a bit of time to chew on everthing Todd, Marcus, Ed and everyone else has posted. I will definately email you right now Todd!

I am an electric player that has played a little upright.
I personally think that for traditional jazz, there really is a sonic/musical reason for people to prefer the upright over the electric bass.

First, they are really different instruments, as opposed to electric/acoustic guitar, which are just variations on a theme.

But more importantly, the particular sound and feel characteristics of the upright are part of what made many traditional jazz styles what they are. The instrument and its sound (and limitations) is part of the genre. The electric bass sounds and feels different, and does not fill precisely the same musical and sonic niche, even if you palm mute etc. It requires the rest of the band to play slightly differently, and the traditionally minded simply don't want to play differently.

Jazz is not really about innovation any more. Some people that play jazz are innovative; the majority are not. Jazz has started to become like classical music, where there is a great deal of skill, but not as much stylistic exploration. Beethoven was a stylistic maverick at one point too...

There are plenty of innovators in jazz, and there are plenty of electric bass players who sound great playing jazz. I just think if you really want to sound like the classic old jazz groups, your first choice would not be to use a bass guitar or a rhodes. When hiring for a party, clients are not looking for innovation.