Here's a quick chronicle of my recent bass overhaul. First, you see the bass (a Warwick Thumb NT 5 String) in it's basically stock condition. I had previously added a brass nut, and I use SIT Rock Brights nickel strings... but that was the extent of the changes prior to this recent electronics overhaul.

It is a lovely bass to be sure, and it sounded great as it was. I just wanted a little more meat to the tone, Thumbs can be a bit on the thin side.

So I installed a pair of Joe Barden JB4 passive humbucking jazz bass pickups and a custom Mike Pope 3-Band preamp.

The tone after the fact is pretty amazing. I wasn't expecting a huge difference, but I got one. Great clarity, great power, and I retained that great Warwick growl... I'm thrilled with the results.

I recorded the bass before the changes, and I'll do the same with the new electronics sometime soon. So you can look for before/after sound clips here sometime in the next 1-2 weeks.

Here are the stock PUPs
http://www.rocketmusic.net/images/ThumbNT.jpg

Here's the stock MEC Premp (Single 9V)
http://www.rocketmusic.net/images/THUMB_MEC_PRE.jpg

Hey - who stole my frickin' pickups?!?!?
http://www.rocketmusic.net/images/THUMB_NO_PUPS.jpg

Here's the new Mike Pope 3-Band Preamp (2 9V batteries = 18V)
http://www.rocketmusic.net/images/THUMB_POPE_PRE.jpg

And here's a shot with the new Joe Barden JB4 pickups (and no knobs... yet!).
http://www.rocketmusic.net/images/THUMB_NEW_PUPS.jpg

I've got to get some new knobs because Mike uses pots with thicker shafts than MEC does. No biggie, I've got a new set of knobs on the way from AllParts.

As I posted previously here, I used the new electronics on my first gig last week. I was more present in the mix than I've ever been. It was like I was louder, but I wasn't. I could just be heard better. The bass REALLY cuts through the mix now... while also pounding the sh*t out of everyone in the club. I LOVE IT!!

Cool deal. and sweet looking bass!

Thanks! Next time you're in Blacksburg, please stop by. You have to hear this thing to believe it!

I'm also active on the Warwick forum, and there's a thread over there right now about this same subject...

http://www.warwick.de/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7161

I dropped in at lunch today and found Greg playing this monster. It has killer tone!

Wow! Your Thumb NT5 looks incredible! Here's my 2000 Thumb NT4 with a Bartolini 3-band EQ with 2-positions on the Midrange control:

http://members.firstinter.net/markster/BassShowcase/Gallery/ThumbNT-front.jpg

I've got a nice Bubinga Pommele wood, but yours tops even mine! But of my 6 Warwicks, my Thumb is still my favorite, and the 18V Bartolini preamp has added to my cutting ability as well, and doesn't add hiss like the MEC preamp did. I still favor the MEC active pickups though, but I like those Joe bardon blade pups - really makes your Thumb unique!

Hah! I wouldn't sell your Bubinga short, Mark. That's every bit as lovely in my book. Your's really looks like it's on fire, and it appears to be a little more orange (mine is more brown). I love that.

+1 on the MEC treble boost hiss, I don't miss that at all.

So is your mid knob push/pull? And what does it change (mid frequency? Q?)?

My mid knob is now the lower stack under the volume, and the single knob in the middle is now the pickup pan. Mike didn't have a stacked knob that would let him stack the volume and pan like MEC does, so that's taking a little getting used to. I'm sure it will be second nature after a gig or two.

Hah! I wouldn't sell your Bubinga short, Mark. That's every bit as lovely in my book. Your's really looks like it's on fire, and it appears to be a little more orange (mine is more brown). I love that.

+1 on the MEC treble boost hiss, I don't miss that at all.

So is your mid knob push/pull? And what does it change (mid frequency? Q?)?

My mid knob is now the lower stack under the volume, and the single knob in the middle is now the pickup pan. Mike didn't have a stacked knob that would let him stack the volume and pan like MEC does, so that's taking a little getting used to. I'm sure it will be second nature after a gig or two.


Well, thanks for the kind words about my Thumb NT - I do feel I got a deal on that one, as it was a dream bass I thought I could never afford until a search on eBay turned this one up and I won it for only $1425.00! Dreams do come true!

The mid knob on my Bartolini is a push-pull (as is the Volume for Active/Passive mode) and the Mid controls two different frequencies: the standard Warwick 800Hz or pull for a nice stronger 250Hz mid.

My Bartolini pre still uses the original MEC Volume stack, since that is an MEC exclusive pot that has the stack and a switch, so it retains my Vol./Blend and the Bartolini push-pull is used for the Mid. and I kept the original MEC Tone stack so that I could use the original Warwick/MEC knobs.

With 2 batteries and 2 control modules, it was a tight fit, but it came out looking clean. I also put a strip of Velcro across the batteries to keep them in place when I have the cover off:

http://members.firstinter.net/markster/bass/Bartolini_Control_Cavity.jpg

Ooooh - I like that velcro idea, I'm sick of those batteries flopping out when I'm working in the control cavity. I still need to get another one of those battery holder compartments from DBG, too, so I can call this project 100% done. That, and hopefully my new knobs will arrive today!

I would have liked to have used my stock MEC vol/pan pot, but I switched to passive pickups so the pot values had to change. Mike had to apply some brainpower and electronic surgery to figure out how to re-lay things out and make it all work with the pots he had available. My only constraint was that I was NOT going to drill any new holes in this bass :)

...My only constraint was that I was NOT going to drill any new holes in this bass :)

Totally agree. I could never do a mod to my dream-come-true Thumb NT that would require drilling any holes or cutting any wood! :eek:

G.A.S. I need a new preamp in my Thumb, too bad I'm an idiot when it comes to electronics.

Looks great, can't wait for clips. I'm thinking of aguilaring + Batrolini'ing my Thumb!

Looks sweet Greg.Cant wait to hear the clips.
Cheers mate,
Greg(Warwick forum mod)

I posted this over Warwick's forum a few minutes ago, but here it is again for TB'ers.
*****************************

OK, so sound clips turned out to be a major pain in the butt. I'm just not setup to do it properly. So, instead, how about some entire songs from recent gigs that feature my old and new electronics? These clips are straight off the board, warts and all, so they're worth what you paid for 'em :)

The first tune is "Easy To Slip" (Little Feat) (http://www.rocketmusic.net/SoundClips/EasyToSlipAlaKind.wma) performed by The Kind on 5/8/08 @ Champs in Blacksburg, VA. This is the stock Thumb NT 5 with MEC PUPs & pre.

The second tune is "Jack Straw" (Grateful Dead) (http://www.rocketmusic.net/SoundClips/JackStrawAlaKind.wma) performed by The Kind on 6/12/08 @ Champs in Blacksburg, VA. This features my new Barden PUPs and Mike Pope pre. If you're short on time, this one heats up about 5:00 in :bassist:

So to my ears, my Thumb is now thicker and meatier. It's still got the honk and growl that drew me to it in the first place, but there's more clean bottom to be dialed in.

What do you guys think?

I liked the tone of the stock Thumb in the first clip, thought it sounded great.

But the tone with the new electronics kills!! Thicker, meatier, more balls, however you want to put it.

Nice playing, too, by the way!:)

(have I mentioned I want a Thumb, too???)

sounds (and looks) great.

I dropped in at lunch today and found Greg playing this monster. It has killer tone!

Cool to see sum locals on here...I am in Roanoke too!!!!

Greg... I just had a chance to check out the audio clips... man the new setup sounds superb! I agree that it's "thicker and meatier" and you're right the honk and growl is still there. It's hard to believe that it's been about 18 years since I heard you play (or you ME for that matter) you've got some REALLY articulate playing going on... very impressive!

Thanks, ya'll!

Yeah, Rob, am I ever glad I was too poor back then to have been able to afford recording time. I cringe when I think of what I sounded like back then. Here in the store, I see too many guys who play exactly like I did 15-20 years ago. They come in and blast out their 2 or 3 slap licks, then they're done. Nothing else to offer. That used to be me, too, but I'm gettin' better now.

As my (sadly, now former) bass teacher, Cameron McLaughlin, says - it's all about playing with intention, that's where articulation comes from. Try to have an idea of what you want to acheive before your fingers start moving. It sounds simple enough, but it's REALLY hard to do at first.

Cameron used to host an open jam on Monday nights here in Bburg before he moved to Charlottesville. One night I went out to that, and I was REALLY focused on playing with intention (we'd just started talking about it in our lessons) . So that was the first time I'd done that live, and it just about killed me. My brain was literally tired, I couldn't think straight after an hour of it. Not to mention, I couldn't get half the stuff out fast enough, so I probably sounded like complete crap all night long. The last song I did that night, I didn't even touch my fretboard - my brain was toast, and I couldn't "see" any notes on the fretboard at all.

Of course, that's all tied up with one's knowledge of the fretboard, music theory, experience, etc. Now many months down the road, I've started to develop quicker mental access to my bag o' tricks, and I'm getting better at knowing what fits over what (BEFORE it starts coming out my fingers). I'm still working on it, long way to go...

Another good thing to do is try to sing what you play. I find that if you let yourself go with that, your singing will take your fingers places they wouldn't normally go. And I'm the world's worst singer, but still it makes me play more lyrically/musically.

Fun, fun, fun!

Here's a nicer pic of my Thumb with the new electronics and knobs. Hubba-hubba :bassist:

http://www.rocketmusic.net/images/ThumbNT-Barden.jpg

I am not a big Warwick fan... they just aren't for my hands. I do love the looks of them and the tones most players get from them though.

That one, as I posted before), looks (and sounds) great!

Another good thing to do is try to sing what you play. I find that if you let yourself go with that, your singing will take your fingers places they wouldn't normally go. And I'm the world's worst singer, but still it makes me play more lyrically/musically.

Fun, fun, fun!

If you hadn't added that last part about your playing being lyrical and musical, I would have said that being the world's worse singer is what has your fingers being taken to places they wouldn't normally go! :lol: ;) :D

I do like the advice and it's a good training technique that's taught in some of the books and magazines I've read. Anything to break one out of their routine is good for creativity!

nice.:)

The clips don't work for me!!! Any chance of uploading them to putfile or soundclick for me, I really would love to have a listen.

Here are some URLs to clips at PutFile. These are Windows Media files (wma file extension), so that could also be part of your problem. I'm sure there are conversion tools out there to turn these into MP3s.

http://media.putfile.com/EasyToSlip // this is the old electronics
http://media.putfile.com/OneMoreSatNight // also the old electronics
http://media.putfile.com/JackStraw // new electronics
http://media.putfile.com/FlyLikeAnEagle-46 // new electronics, some slap, lots of effects

Good luck, and enjoy!

Here are some URLs to clips at PutFile. These are Windows Media files (wma file extension), so that could also be part of your problem. I'm sure there are conversion tools out there to turn these into MP3s.

http://media.putfile.com/EasyToSlip // this is the old electronics
http://media.putfile.com/OneMoreSatNight // also the old electronics
http://media.putfile.com/JackStraw // new electronics
http://media.putfile.com/FlyLikeAnEagle-46 // new electronics, some slap, lots of effects

Good luck, and enjoy!

When you uploaded your songs the first time, I was able to right-click the link in your thread and download the songs direct. But in this post, the links take you to another page and the songs don't show up for download. At least Fly Like an Eagle didn't. Could you at least post Fly Like An Eagle as a direct link like you did before? I like that song and would love to hear your Thumb and new electronics on it.

Thanks. :)

Here are some URLs to clips at PutFile. These are Windows Media files (wma file extension), so that could also be part of your problem. I'm sure there are conversion tools out there to turn these into MP3s.

http://media.putfile.com/EasyToSlip // this is the old electronics
http://media.putfile.com/OneMoreSatNight // also the old electronics
http://media.putfile.com/JackStraw // new electronics
http://media.putfile.com/FlyLikeAnEagle-46 // new electronics, some slap, lots of effects

Good luck, and enjoy!


Cheers man!

Here you go, Mark! I hope you have some time on your hands, it's over 20 minutes :)

Fly Like An Eagle/Scarlet Begonias (http://www.rocketmusic.net/SoundClips/FlyLikeAnEagleAlaKind.wma) (New Electronics, a little slap, lots of effects)

One More Saturday Night (http://www.rocketmusic.net/SoundClips/OneMoreSatNightAlaKind.wma) (Old Stock MEC Electronics)

Thanks Greg.

As for the time, I may have to wait until I go to the hospital for my bone marrow transplant. Then I'll have 4-8 weeks of time with my laptop, DVDs, my Warwick Thumb and instruction books! Nowhere to go, nothing else to do. I'll need something to pass the time and keep me in good spirits. :D

Thanks, ya'll!

Yeah, Rob, am I ever glad I was too poor back then to have been able to afford recording time. I cringe when I think of what I sounded like back then. Here in the store, I see too many guys who play exactly like I did 15-20 years ago. They come in and blast out their 2 or 3 slap licks, then they're done. Nothing else to offer. That used to be me, too, but I'm gettin' better now.

As my (sadly, now former) bass teacher, Cameron McLaughlin, says - it's all about playing with intention, that's where articulation comes from. Try to have an idea of what you want to acheive before your fingers start moving. It sounds simple enough, but it's REALLY hard to do at first.

Cameron used to host an open jam on Monday nights here in Bburg before he moved to Charlottesville. One night I went out to that, and I was REALLY focused on playing with intention (we'd just started talking about it in our lessons) . So that was the first time I'd done that live, and it just about killed me. My brain was literally tired, I couldn't think straight after an hour of it. Not to mention, I couldn't get half the stuff out fast enough, so I probably sounded like complete crap all night long. The last song I did that night, I didn't even touch my fretboard - my brain was toast, and I couldn't "see" any notes on the fretboard at all.

Of course, that's all tied up with one's knowledge of the fretboard, music theory, experience, etc. Now many months down the road, I've started to develop quicker mental access to my bag o' tricks, and I'm getting better at knowing what fits over what (BEFORE it starts coming out my fingers). I'm still working on it, long way to go...

Another good thing to do is try to sing what you play. I find that if you let yourself go with that, your singing will take your fingers places they wouldn't normally go. And I'm the world's worst singer, but still it makes me play more lyrically/musically.

Fun, fun, fun!

I had no Rocket Music is in Blacksburg. I'll have to
make a trip up soon.

Its a small world. I met Cameron at a friends
house about 5 or 6 years ago here in Roanoke
We used to have Bass Night once a month.
At one point we had about 16
bass players there. At the time Cameron had only
been playing maybe 4 years and he was a monster player.
I had been playing about 30 years at the time (i'm old)
and he was such and advanced player it was way over
my head.

BTW... I really enjoyed your playing on the clips
and your Warwick sounds great.

Dan

+1 - wow. Not only is that bass beautiful - but it sounds awesome.

Great job Greg!!

Thanks, guys!

Bass7755 - Yeah, I was in the same boat as you. I'd been playing bass for 20 years when I first met Cameron. I thought I was pretty hot snot, but then Cameron started playing... wow! I had to start taking lessons from him, and I did until the day he left.

I guess I never really finished my post about what he's up to... he's moved to Charlottesville to work on an album with his cousin (Sam somebody). She's a singer/songwriter who's been in LA until recently. LeRoi Moore (Dave Matthew's Band sax player) has taken an interest in her career, so she's moved to Charlotteville to be near the DMB HQ. She called Cam to fill the bass slot, so he moved up there, too. They're recording an album this summer in the DMB studio, and they've got a bunch of festival dates lined up this fall. So he hasn't quite "made it" yet, but the door is WIDE open.

Cameron is also now taking lessons with a guy who taught Miles and Coltrane back in the day. I think his name is Dr. Wiggins. He's in his 80s now, and he's just this Yoda of music. Their first encounter went something like this:

Dr. Wiggins: "How many tones in a Dominant chord?"
Cameron: "4?"
Dr. Wiggins: "9".
Cameron: "Say what?"

I can't even imagine how great Cameron is going to become (he's already pretty frickin' awesome in his mid-20s). I definitely consider myself fortunate to have met such a talent and to have become friends with such a super sweet/chill guy.

Ya'll keep an ear out for a Norah Jones sort of album from Sam somebody- that'll be Cam on bass.

Thanks, guys!

Bass7755 - Yeah, I was in the same boat as you. I'd been playing bass for 20 years when I first met Cameron. I thought I was pretty hot snot, but then Cameron started playing... wow! I had to start taking lessons from him, and I did until the day he left.

I guess I never really finished my post about what he's up to... he's moved to Charlottesville to work on an album with his cousin (Sam somebody). She's a singer/songwriter who's been in LA until recently. LeRoi Moore (Dave Matthew's Band sax player) has taken an interest in her career, so she's moved to Charlotteville to be near the DMB HQ. She called Cam to fill the bass slot, so he moved up there, too. They're recording an album this summer in the DMB studio, and they've got a bunch of festival dates lined up this fall. So he hasn't quite "made it" yet, but the door is WIDE open.

Cameron is also now taking lessons with a guy who taught Miles and Coltrane back in the day. I think his name is Dr. Wiggins. He's in his 80s now, and he's just this Yoda of music. Their first encounter went something like this:

Dr. Wiggins: "How many tones in a Dominant chord?"
Cameron: "4?"
Dr. Wiggins: "9".
Cameron: "Say what?"

I can't even imagine how great Cameron is going to become (he's already pretty frickin' awesome in his mid-20s). I definitely consider myself fortunate to have met such a talent and to have become friends with such a super sweet/chill guy.

Ya'll keep an ear out for a Norah Jones sort of album from Sam somebody- that'll be Cam on bass.

That's great news about Cameron. I kept telling my
wife about this amazing young player I met and that
he was going make it big someday. I'll keep
my eye's open for the CD from Sam "somebody".;)

Is he still playing Benavente basses?


Dan

Yep, he's got a 4 string single cut model. And he's got a "The Low End" jazz style on order, still made by Benavente...

Yep, he's got a 4 string single cut model. And he's got a "The Low End" jazz style on order, still made by Benavente...

I had a Benavente at one time. I bought an Epifani T112 from
Brian that I still have and gig with. Chris and Brian are great guys. I would love to try one of Brian's Low End basses.

You're probably already at your gig tonight... but good luck!:D
I would like to make up to B'burg and check out your
band sometime.

Dan

Thanks, Dan. The show went pretty well. Melissa is a wild one, and damn, what an amazing voice!! I was hanging pretty well for about two hours... but once we ran out of familiar material, random songs started coming fast and furious. Nobody was shouting out keys at the start of 'em, so I was just hanging on for dear life :eek: We had a few really, really bad first verses toward the end :)

Please do come on down sometime. Our main regular gig is every 2nd and 4th Thursday at Champs. We're also on the Awful Arthur's circuit, which takes us to Roanoke (Market and Towers) and Salem occasionally. You can always check out our calendar at http://www.TheKind.org, or you can join the mailing list.

Dang GAS!!!! I'm at it again.

I've been getting a little frustrated with my onboard preamp recently... I foolishly cornered Mike in a bit when I spec'd out my preamp. I wanted a 3-band EQ along with master volume and blend, but I was unwilling to drill any new holes in my baby. So Mike had to stack some things that he doesn't usually stack, and that resulted in a couple pots with ... shall we say... a less than musicical taper. When I nudge my mid or bass knobs, I get a HUGE tonal change. It's completely my own fault for taking Mike out of his comfort zone, and I thought I could deal with it... but I can't.

So yesterday I ordered an Audere preamp... I went with two volumes stacked (one for each Barden PUP), and a 4-band EQ spread over two stacked knobs (Treble/Hi-Mid and Lo-Mid/Bass). So now I'll have 6 controls instead of 5 still in the same 3 original holes on my bass. And I'm praying the tapers are more to my liking - I don't want to have to do this AGAIN :)

The Audere's Z-Switch IS tempting me to drill a small hole... I'm going to make a run-time decision on that. Once everything is installed, I'll play with it and see if it's worthy of a hole... it's going to have to be pretty incredible for me to drill on that gorgeous Bubinga...

So are there any Audere preamp users here? Am I right to be as excited as I am about this preamp? I looked at Glockenklang and Aguilar, too, but it didn't look like they would work within my constraints (3-band EQ in 3 holes w/ passive PUPs). Hell, at this point I want to try them all...

Whoa!!!! The Audere showed up today (3-days after I ordered it, even going coast-to-coast).

It dropped in very easily, and I've got some first impressions:
1) David Meadows is a VERY organized individual! I used to work in an engineering department at a big company, and we would have been proud to put out the product package that David delivers. Everything is individually and logically pakaged, the installation instructions are crystal clear... and the product rocks!

2) With my Pope 3-band pre, I would sometimes struggle to get a nice, warm round sound. I could get a biting, agressive tone all day long, but taking the edge off usually lead to a significant volume drop and a so-so tone. (Again, that was my fault for making Mike go outside his comfort zone on stacking controls). Now that I have 4 bands to work with as well as a complete set of properly tapered pots, I've got access to more useful tones.

3) The switch from Vol/Blend to Vol/Vol as well as the switch from 3-band to 4-band will take some getting used to!! Hopefully I get it down before my next gig, next Thursday. We'll be recording the entire show as usual, so I should have some sound clips in a couple of weeks.

Well I sure wish you'd have just told me you weren't happy. Granted, there's not much I can do to change the taper of the pots, but there may have been other reasons you were experiencing what you were experiencing. You have to remember that the term "comfort zone" doesn't hold much meaning when it comes to a preamp that has never been built before...by anyone...for any reason. To think it wouldn't be perfect the first time out is really pretty reasonable. That's why, though I charge a lot, I offer what amounts to satisfaction guaranteed. Which means if it doesn't do what you thought it would...or more importantly what I said it would...you tell me and we get it there. I really pride myself on customer service...not in the retail sense of the word... but in the sense that when a real player like yourself wants my help in solving a problem, I do everything I can to accommodate them. If you'd have sent the preamp back to me and told me what you said in item "2)" above, I'd have taken care of it, free of charge. If you'd have said, "even thought you warned me about it, the taper of these pots is driving me crazy", I'd have done what I could to find a way to make a different part work. I'd probably have charged you...but only a minimum.

Satisfied customers are worth much more to me than dissatisfied ones. I always reserve the right to choose not to do business with anyone I don't like to deal with, because I can usually see trouble coming. But that very rarely ever happens. I don't make a million dollars a year building preamps. In reality it's nothing more than supplemental income to help support my average middle-class lifestyle. My reputation is my biggest asset. My unpaid/minimally paid efforts on the behalf of my customers is my investment in that reputation. Believe me, if there's anyone in the world who can take your subjective wants and needs and translate them into electrical reality, it's me. That's my whole reason for doing what I do.

We live in crappy economic times and it's largely because people run so many businesses that borrow money to make up for shortfalls instead of just operating within the means of the company's ability to generate revenue. A housing crisis freezes up credit, so now businesses can't borrow? Most of them shouldn't need to borrow in the first place. I'm trying to run my affairs with integrity and in the black, so reputation is everything. Maybe that's just so odd that you assume once the product is sold I don't want to hear about it. That's inaccurate. But I digress.

You should send the preamp back and let me see what I can do with it. I've played the Audere and honestly I really like it. It's a mass produced piece and it's well conceived and thought through. Point is, what you paid me all that money for was something you've not redeemed. I have a perspective that nobody else does. I don't think anyone can argue with that. You should really avail yourself of it.

Wow, thanks for that offer Mike, I really appreciate it! I hope you realize that I went out of my way to make it clear I'm not dissin' you or your products. I chose to make those compromises, so it's my cross to bear. I wouldn't hesitate to use another of your preamps, they really do sound great.

Truth be told, you had ALREADY bent over backwards for me, so I would have felt awful asking you to do any more. You did the surgery to stack some pots that weren't pre-stacked, and you helped me adapt the internal gain control to make it just a bass gain... all at no extra charge!

If we're ever at Victor's camp at the same time, maybe we can play around a bit with the preamp and my Thumb bass? I think the Thumb's physical pickup layout has a lot to do with my tone struggles. It's like having two bridge pickups, they're both set so far back from the neck. It creates a tone that I love, but it won't create all the tones I love... of course, what bass will? (hint: answer = none).

My plan is (at some point) to buy another bass with a more traditional pickup layout and install your pre-amp in it. Then I hope to be able to back out the gain control change and un-stack the problem pots.

Thanks again for the offer, your customer service is really top-notch!

All good. I know you're not dissing anything. That's totally understood. My point is just that, although it may feel like overstepping your bounds, if you aren't happy with one of my preamps you're doing a lot more for me by asking me to do something about it than not. I certainly don't take it personally. Keep in touch on stuff.

Oh, man, I am so bummed... I was just looking through here for some of my sound clip links, and I see that Maddrakkett's picture links no longer show up... if you haven't heard by now, Mark passed away recently... he was such a fantastic forum contributor, always helpful and polite... and at the end of his life, he was incredibly brave in the face of disease. RIP, Mark, you'll be missed.