Perhaps sounds elemental but not for me.I have a progression D7,G7,Cm7,F7,E-7,A7 what chords are C-7 can some caind person explain for me.Is not Cb7 and not Cm7 so...
Thanks you very much,yes i´m a beginner Ron

Usually, C-7 is an abbreviation for C Minor 7 (C, Eb, G, Bb).

The "-" symbol means minor. A lot of people like the system of notation where you assign symbols to the chord types versus letters (delta for major, - for minor, + for augmented, o for diminished, etc.) Others, myself included, like to use the - symbol to differentiate a minor 7 chord as much as possible from a major 7 chord. People will often use things like M7 and m7 in the same chart, or "ma7" and "m7, but I'll typically used "maj7" and "-7" to illustrate the greatest possible contrast.

What you should NEVER do, however, is mix two different symbols for the same chord quality, like what you have in that chord progression. Both the lower case m and the minus sign signify the same thing, and so when you have that happening, it creates a lot of confusion. Always stay consistant.

Thanks you guys!

A C-7 is also likely to be a C dominant chord (C E G Bb). I'm not sure if the minus is a normally omitted thing - either way, the best way to figure it out is just listen to the song and see what fits best.

Personally, I prefer using the CM7/Cm7/C7 notation for major-minor-dominant, but as it's already been said, different notations over the years make mixups way too common.

There are three kinds of 7th chords (actually there are more - see the link below). I think maybe that's where you're getting confused (as you've got terms for two kinds in one question - and there's that third kind you haven't mentioned).

Cmaj7
C-7, Cm7
C7

Now, the first one is the major seventh chord. It's actually not the most famous or most used seventh chord - but it's a lovely chord, often used in jazz. This is the one that is built by playing the root, the third, the fifth and the major seventh of the scale (Cmaj7 = C, E, G, B). Notice that this makes that top note just one fret (half step) down from the root. Some regard this as somewhat discordant.

Cm7 would involve two changes: the third dropped down a half tone (to E-flat) and now, that B also drops down - to B-flat. Nice. Fundamental to blues and rock. (so C, Eb, G, Bb).

But that regular C7? Well, that's a chord of immense importance in Western Music. It's called the dominant 7th - or just the 7th and that may be what you're looking for. It is like the major - it starts with C, E and G (1, 3, and 5) but adds the minor 7th (the Bb) instead of the B. To many people this sounds nicer than the Cmaj7.

To me, when I see C7 - it means the dominant 7th (not the major 7th): CEGBb.

Interestingly, in much of western music, a 7th chord (NOT a major 7th or a minor 7th - but the dominant 7th) is used to end many pieces. If a song is in C, then G7 is used to end or bridge the piece. G is the perfect 5th of C, and G7 began to be used a lot inside songs in C during the late Middle Ages (and probably before).

So, if you're playing in C, G7 is a good chord to know. If you're playing in G, D7 is your friend.

But distinguishing these three kinds of 7th chords is rather confusing, I think, at first. It's helpful to have a keyboard (or a picture of a keyboard) that shows them.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x146/BearHut/Music/chord_chart_dom_7.jpg

I hope that shows up - it's a bunch of dominant 7ths (the one that's usually written C7, G7, as indicated) all built in the same way of course.

Wikipedia has a good article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_chords) too.

There are diminished and augmented (etc.) 7ths as well, which come in handy in some jazz (and rock) tunes.

A C-7 is also likely to be a C dominant chord (C E G Bb). I'm not sure if the minus is a normally omitted thing - either way, the best way to figure it out is just listen to the song and see what fits best.

Personally, I prefer using the CM7/Cm7/C7 notation for major-minor-dominant, but as it's already been said, different notations over the years make mixups way too common.

I have never, ever seen a C dominant 7 chord notated using C-7.

For what it's worth, I work for a music publisher, and we use the following abbreviations in our books:

CMaj7 = C Major 7
Cmin7 = C Minor 7
C7 = C Dominant 7

C7 is a major third, minor seventh. C-E-G-Bb.

As an aside, the tritone relationship between the major third and the minor seventh gives this chord a sense of tension that made it the foundation for jazz music.

A C-7 is also likely to be a C dominant chord (C E G Bb). I'm not sure if the minus is a normally omitted thing - either way, the best way to figure it out is just listen to the song and see what fits best.

Personally, I prefer using the CM7/Cm7/C7 notation for major-minor-dominant, but as it's already been said, different notations over the years make mixups way too common.

No, C-7 is NEVER indicative of a dominant chord. I've seen some pretty screwy charts before, but I've never seen one where it would indicate that. Cm7 is also never used in contemporary usage as a dominant 7th, although in old school classical textbooks it might have been.

I have never, ever seen a C dominant 7 chord notated using C-7.

For what it's worth, I work for a music publisher, and we use the following abbreviations in our books:

CMaj7 = C Major 7
Cmin7 = C Minor 7
C7 = C Dominant 7

Yes, exactly. Although I see Cm7 all the time for the minor 7th, which I prefer.

I agree the hyphen/minus is used for the minor chord - but I have to look through a lot of my sheet music to find an example of any publisher actually using that (and I've got a century's worth of examples, from my grandma on down).

I agree the hyphen/minus is used for the minor chord - but I have to look through a lot of my sheet music to find an example of any publisher actually using that (and I've got a century's worth of examples, from my grandma on down).

I've seen it frequently in jazz charts. Also the little triangle for major. Maybe I'm wrong, but my theory is the jazz cats like to use the most minimal chord symbols possible so that your hand doesn't get tired writing 2 or 4 chords per measure. :)

Yes, exactly. Although I see Cm7 all the time for the minor 7th, which I prefer.

I agree the hyphen/minus is used for the minor chord - but I have to look through a lot of my sheet music to find an example of any publisher actually using that (and I've got a century's worth of examples, from my grandma on down).

I don't think you would need to look that hard. Just off the top of my head you will see C-7 for minor 7 in every Aebersold book and most of the stuff that comes out of Berklee.

C-7 generally means minor 7 (1, b3, 5, b7). The problem with using "M" for major and "m" for minor is that in hand-written charts it can be very easy to confuse them. I prefer "Cmin7" as it's pretty unambigious.

Cmin7 is very clear, as is CMaj7, and C7
C-7 is also clear enough, but C(delta, or triangle) 7 isn't clear except by convention.
Cm7 in a handwritten script could easily be confused with CM7

jte

Not exactly to do with the OP's question, but I like to be as clear as possible when writing out chords.

I.E.
Maj = Major
Min = Minor
Aug = Augmented
Dim = Diminished
For Dominant 7th chords, I use just a 7. For example, C7

C-7 is always C minor 7. I've also seen it as Cmin7, Cmi7, Cm7 just have to get used to all of them because different regions of the world and different styles of music tend to favor certain symbol.

Now the one that I saw a bit in the past and appears to of luckily died out is a 7 with a slash thru it. That was a symbol for Major 7 chord.

The other one that drive some batty, but I like is the circle with an line thru it for mi7b5 chord. The first time I worked with this woman piano player I made some chord charts using - and slashed cirles for mi7b5 thinking everyone know those... Oh did I get an earful she had a degree in classical piano and had never seen symbols like that.

Another symbol some noobies aren't sure what to do with is C7 alt. Means they want an altered dominant chord and you can use any alterations you like. Usually used on a V in a minor key.

Whether you like these symbols or not you need to be aware of them just in case they showup on a chart. Also know the basics of Nashville charts.

No, C-7 is NEVER indicative of a dominant chord. I've seen some pretty screwy charts before, but I've never seen one where it would indicate that. Cm7 is also never used in contemporary usage as a dominant 7th, although in old school classical textbooks it might have been.

Erm, where did I say that Cm7 ever implied a dominant 7? :eyebrow:

Just trying to figure out what I said vs. what was read.

Erm, where did I say that Cm7 ever implied a dominant 7? :eyebrow:

Just trying to figure out what I said vs. what was read.

The statement I took issue with was the following:

A C-7 is also likely to be a C dominant chord (C E G Bb).

C Dominant 7 is almost always written C7. Rarely, I've seen it written Cdom7, but never C-7 (which I would interpret as C Minor 7).

C-7 = Cm7 = Cmi7 = Cmin7 = Cminor7 = C+Eb+G+Bb. End of story. No wait, if you stretch it, it could be written at least as Eb/C as well....

I was surprised when I saw this thread had gotten more than one reply. Now, this is reply #17. :eyebrow:

I was surprised when I saw this thread had gotten more than one reply. Now, this is reply #17. :eyebrow:

Dude, this is Talkbass! Nothing should surprise you. ;)

Perhaps sounds elemental but not for me.I have a progression D7,G7,Cm7,F7,E-7,A7 what chords are C-7 can some caind person explain for me.Is not Cb7 and not Cm7 so...
Thanks you very much,yes i´m a beginner Ron

The E-7 has already been explained.

I wouldn't expect the chart to mix conventions, so I'm willing to bet that the Cm7 is actually a C major 7.

I agree the hyphen/minus is used for the minor chord - but I have to look through a lot of my sheet music to find an example of any publisher actually using that (and I've got a century's worth of examples, from my grandma on down).


The Real Book, Aebersold and Berklee use the minus sign.

Erm, where did I say that Cm7 ever implied a dominant 7? :eyebrow:

Just trying to figure out what I said vs. what was read.

You said "major-minor-dominant". "I didn't take it to mean major, minor, and dominant respectively", I took it to mean "major-minor dominant 7th chord", a classical term for a 7th chord.

Man, this exact question comes up exactly once a month and the debate is always the same.

Any copiest that is using "-" "m" or any other ambiguous symbol for declaring the quality of chords is lazy.

Cmaj7 is spelled C E G B and it is experience and training that will tell you that.
C7 is spelled C E G Bb and experience and training tell you that too.
Cmin7 is spelled C Eb G Bb. Once again, experience and training.

There are conventions that are generally agreed upon so that we can get down to what matters which is playing music. I want to strangle the arranger that writes CM7. Is his handwriting readable? Is that a CAPITAL or lowercase M? Does he mean minor? Major? If I'm sightreading a chart on the fly I only have about 1 second in advance to try and figure it out.

Also, someone else posted that "C-7" could be written as C/Eb, and I would like to point out that piano players like to see extended dominant chords written out that way because they like to think of each hand playing different triads. That chord would most likely be written for a guitar player (because they HATE that kind of notation) as Eb13(b9). Looks like the middle of a ii-V-i in Ab minor, another horrible key.

Also, someone else posted that "C-7" could be written as C/Eb, and I would like to point out that piano players like to see extended dominant chords written out that way because they like to think of each hand playing different triads. That chord would most likely be written for a guitar player (because they HATE that kind of notation) as Eb13(b9). Looks like the middle of a ii-V-i in Ab minor, another horrible key.

Actually, Deacon said (tongue in cheek) that Cmin7 could be written Eb/C, not C/Eb. Very different chords!!!!

Eb/C is the "slash chord" notation for "Eb with a C in the bass," in other words, C, Eb, G, Bb. Same notes as Cmin7, however, the context will determine which notation is correct. In other words, Cmin7-F7-BbMaj7 is correct, Eb/C-F7-BbMaj7 is incorrect; whereas Eb-Eb/D-Eb/C-Bb is correct and Eb-Eb/D-Cmin7-Bb is incorrect.

And why you be hatin' on Ab??? :)

ps I was taught the correct notation for "C triad over an Eb triad" (or Eb-G-Bb-C-E or Fb-G) is CMaj/EbMaj, not C/Eb (which would be a slash chord, Eb-C-E-G). Also, it is not a dominant chord because it does not have the all-important Db. :)

Actually, Deacon said (tongue in cheek) that Cmin7 could be written Eb/C, not C/Eb. Very different chords!!!!

Eb/C is the "slash chord" notation for "Eb with a C in the bass," in other words, C, Eb, G, Bb. Same notes as Cmin7, however, the context will determine which notation is correct.

C/Eb is by no stretch of the imagination equivalent to C-7 (aka Cmin7).

And why you be hatin' on Ab??? :)

My bad. I use the quick reply box at the bottom of the page and his post was on another page so I couldn't reference it.

Eb/C (and I have seen this on some big band charts) can mean C7#9 because a piano player can simply play those 2 triads (C E G in his left hand and Eb G Bb in his right) and get that chord pretty easily with a moderately acceptable voicing. You would have to be aware of the chord progression and the melody. Again, guitar players hate that kind of notation because they can't play close voiced triads like that very easily.

Ab minor sucks because you have no open strings to reference your pitch with. Double bass students play that notoriously sharp.

My bad. I use the quick reply box at the bottom of the page and his post was on another page so I couldn't reference it.

Eb/C (and I have seen this on some big band charts) can mean C7#9 because a piano player can simply play those 2 triads (C E G in his left hand and Eb G Bb in his right) and get that chord pretty easily with a moderately acceptable voicing. You would have to be aware of the chord progression and the melody. Again, guitar players hate that kind of notation because they can't play close voiced triads like that very easily.

Ab minor sucks because you have no open strings to reference your pitch with. Double bass students play that notoriously sharp.

Eb/C = C7#9

That makes sense and is a "hip" way to think about it, thanks! I learned something. :)

Man, this exact question comes up exactly once a month and the debate is always the same.

Any copiest that is using "-" "m" or any other ambiguous symbol for declaring the quality of chords is lazy.

Cmaj7 is spelled C E G B and it is experience and training that will tell you that.
C7 is spelled C E G Bb and experience and training tell you that too.
Cmin7 is spelled C Eb G Bb. Once again, experience and training.

The problem with chord notation is that everybody likes to do it their way and thinks that every other way of doing it is wrong, lazy, incoherant or ambiguous. Personal preference rules all. The Real Book uses different notation than the New Real Book, which uses different notation than Aebersold, etc. Even when the IAJE attempted to standardize it, nobody could quite agree within the association on what the best approach was.

I personally don't like using "min7" because it is the same number of letters and starts with the same letter as "maj7" In darkly lit bandstands with people who have chicken scratch for handwriting, distinguishing the difference is important, and it can be hard.

I have never, ever seen a C dominant 7 chord notated using C-7.

For what it's worth, I work for a music publisher, and we use the following abbreviations in our books:

CMaj7 = C Major 7
Cmin7 = C Minor 7
C7 = C Dominant 7

+1.

Eb/C (and I have seen this on some big band charts) can mean C7#9 because a piano player can simply play those 2 triads (C E G in his left hand and Eb G Bb in his right) and get that chord pretty easily with a moderately acceptable voicing. You would have to be aware of the chord progression and the melody. Again, guitar players hate that kind of notation because they can't play close voiced triads like that very easily.

Well, if the slash was vertical, like Eb/C, it would generally indicate that it was a triad over a bass note. If, however, you wrote the slash horizontal (can't do it in text), then it could mean triad over triad. You might also write it Eb/C(triad).

Well, if the slash was vertical, like Eb/C, it would generally indicate that it was a triad over a bass note. If, however, you wrote the slash horizontal (can't do it in text), then it could mean triad over triad. You might also write it Eb/C(triad).

The same copiest that wrote out the "CM/m7" chord used the almost horizontal/kinda tilted slash. Use your ears or just play the root. Gotta love pedalling that stuff.

Just for clarification - I would probably never write a Cm7 as Eb/C, I just said it was the same notes and therefore in theory it could be written that way. It was meant mostly as a joke, and at least Mushroo seem to have understood it. :)

And yes I would never interpret Eb/C as anything else than C-Eb-G-Bb. The triad over triad needs to be written with a horizontal slash as HaVIC5 said, or at least in another way than Eb/C.

The same copiest that wrote out the "CM/m7" chord used the almost horizontal/kinda tilted slash. Use your ears or just play the root. Gotta love pedalling that stuff.

Well, yeah, for us, it doesn't matter :p. C is a good note to play no matter which way it's interpreted.

The same copiest that wrote out the "CM/m7" chord used the almost horizontal/kinda tilted slash. Use your ears or just play the root. Gotta love pedalling that stuff.

Okay seeing this brings up a good question what are different ways to write a minor Major 7 chord or the "Soap Opera" chord. CmiMa7, CmiM7, CminMAJ7, can't do it online but I liked when copyist would do the Cmi or C- the raise up and do the Ma7 or M7.

So what do y'all prefer???

If you listen to a soap opera you will here this chord for the suspense at end of the show. They will hit the chord then say "will Ms X live" then drop a 9th on top of the chord and say "tune in tomorrow...." :D Then the Charlie's Angels chord is another fave of mine. :hyper:

Okay seeing this brings up a good question what are different ways to write a minor Major 7 chord or the "Soap Opera" chord. CmiMa7, CmiM7, CminMAJ7, can't do it online but I liked when copyist would do the Cmi or C- the raise up and do the Ma7 or M7.

So what do y'all prefer???


Cmin(Maj7)

Cm(maj7) for me, but a shorter version would be welcome. How about C-Δ7 ? (I hope that delta symbol is visible to you).

It could also be written G+/C, but in fact the chord could often be substituted by simply a G+ as the bass anyway often moves to the fifth over that Cm(maj7) chord, e.g. in the Beatles' "Something": Am, E+, C/G, D7/F#.

I'll make sure to put the "maj7" part of that in parentheses to avoid confusion. I really don't like the one with the minus sign and the delta, that just spells trouble, IMO. I'd do it Cm(maj7), or C-(maj7). Cmin(maj7) also works, but its long.

Well, if the slash was vertical, like Eb/C, it would generally indicate that it was a triad over a bass note. If, however, you wrote the slash horizontal (can't do it in text), then it could mean triad over triad. You might also write it Eb/C(triad).

Eb
---
C

:D

I see Cm∆7 or Cmin∆7 a lot.

Music nomenclature is a bitch seeing as there is no standard and no one seems to agree as to what's best. You have to go by intuition and hope to hell your right. If you're wrong -- don't do that again on the second verse :D
I keep in mind who the writer is, because each one has his own preferences.
But it is a drag trying to make out scribbles in a playing situation. If you have a chance to look at the score and ask questions before the gig, it's a good thing. :cool:
I try to be neat and consistent. :)

I see Cm∆7 or Cmin∆7 a lot.

Music nomenclature is a bitch seeing as there is no standard and no one seems to agree as to what's best. You have to go by intuition and hope to hell your right. If you're wrong -- don't do that again on the second verse :D
I keep in mind who the writer is, because each one has his own preferences.
But it is a drag trying to make out scribbles in a playing situation. If you have a chance to look at the score and ask questions before the gig, it's a good thing. :cool:
I try to be neat and consistent. :)

Yeah, that's really the most important thing, consistency. Really, there's only a couple different possible symbols for each chord quality, so learning all of them doesn't really take too long, but it can be VERY confusing to have a couple different ones in the same chart.

I see Cm∆7 or Cmin∆7 a lot.

Music nomenclature is a bitch seeing as there is no standard and no one seems to agree as to what's best. You have to go by intuition and hope to hell your right. If you're wrong -- don't do that again on the second verse :D
I keep in mind who the writer is, because each one has his own preferences.
But it is a drag trying to make out scribbles in a playing situation. If you have a chance to look at the score and ask questions before the gig, it's a good thing. :cool:
I try to be neat and consistent. :)

I like the triangle for Maj7, but run into many who don't.

Sure be nice to have a standard. You can have standard committee bless a computer language why not music for things like chord symbols, mode names, etc. Boy there would be some great battles between the classical and Jazz representatives.

You said "major-minor-dominant". "I didn't take it to mean major, minor, and dominant respectively", I took it to mean "major-minor dominant 7th chord", a classical term for a 7th chord.

Therein lies the confusion, I meant "CM7, Cm7 and C7 are major, minor, dominant, respectively".

My bad. :hiding:

Using shorter forms (like delta, plus, degree etc) isn't about being lazy. It saves time, ink, and space. If you've got 4 chords to a bar (all with extensions) you have to be able to fit them all. I've read of plenty of charts where the chord names were overlapping (harder to read and more irritating than any standard notation). Aside from that, obviously the more you can fit on a page the better since it allows you to write the score out with less pages (if you've ever had to use 2 music stands or worse, do page turns in the middle of a performance you understand why this is important)

Like HaVIC said it does come down to preference. I had a jazz theory professor who wouldn't let us use delta and degree in the same score since a sloppily drawn maj7 turns into a dim so easily.. and when you hear the two together it's not exactly pretty.

Like HaVIC said it does come down to preference. I had a jazz theory professor who wouldn't let us use delta and degree in the same score since a sloppily drawn maj7 turns into a dim so easily.. and when you hear the two together it's not exactly pretty.

It becomes the infamous major 7 (#9, #11, 13) chord, and actually, depending on the context, can sound pretty hip. Duke Ellington loved ending on this chord. Jobim uses it sometimes in his tunes. There's a lot of interesting history that goes along with the chord - classical music calls it the "auxiliary triad" - a triad a half step below the tonic resolving to the tonic. Often guitarists/pianists will play this as the first chord of Misty resolving it to the tonic in bar 2. You might voice it as B/C, or Co7(maj7), but if you want it nice and spicy, do the maj7(#9) thing.

But, you know, if you want to be all lame and write clearly, go right ahead. The best things often come from mistakes. :p

I found this in the net!
- sign=applied to chord names or numbers: indicates a minor triad, for example the notes C, Eb, G. C-7 means a C minor 7th chord
This is the link.
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musicalsymbols.htm