Well, here's one that's being built out of left overs and "undesirable" stock, so I'm gonna keep it and think of it as an experiment on things untried. The mahogany body had a worm hole and in addition it had severe tear out during the shaping operation that required epoxy and wood dust filling. The neck is left over from a multi-neck glue up that's not enough for my regular sizes. The fingerboard is also left over but cannot be used elsewhere because of the unattractive crack (which has been filled and stabilized with CA glue). The bass itself will be P inspired, finished with a sunburst (to hide the tear out and repair), unlined fretless with a 32" scale, 16" radius on the fingerboard, perloid pickguard, schaller and hipshot hardware and a very special pickup I have in mind, P inspired, but quite unusual. More pics and updates as I get time to make progress. Oh, and the neck is Fender style from flat stock as opposed to an angled headstock. Bolt-on.

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/3719/img2700ob9.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/3231/img2702bm2.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/949/img2703rr3.jpg
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/7529/img2701to9.jpg

Lookin' good, Wilser! Can't wait to see more. LOVE that fingerboard...

Somehow i find this more appealing than the usual builds (not that your other basses are anything less than world-class Wils) love the wee oddballs that come along from time to time. Very nice! ill give you 20 quid for it!

I'm sure you'll make wonders with that wood, Wilser. I LOVE short scale basses... but 32" is usually called "medium scale" :D

I'm sure you'll make wonders with that wood, Wilser. I LOVE short scale basses... but 32" is usually called "medium scale" :D

well, I usually like 35" scale basses, so for me this is short, whatever you wanna call it.

My BG-31 has a 32 inch scale. It works quite well for me. Keep us posted!

I really dig it. Too bad that FB had a crack, it is very stunning.

Looks cool Wilser! I really LOVE that fingerboard. Gotta love sapwood :)

Bi-colored fingerboard, purpleheart headstock...

... subscribed. :smug:

I really dig it. Too bad that FB had a crack, it is very stunning.

well, actually, good that it had a crack, otherwise I would have been compelled to keep it in the customer offerings stack and not use it for my own build. The crack is fixed with CA glue and is only an aesthetic issue right now.

will a 32" scale bass still have that mid-hump that your basses are so greatly known for

well, actually, good that it had a crack, otherwise I would have been compelled to keep it in the customer offerings stack and not use it for my own build. The crack is fixed with CA glue and is only an aesthetic issue right now.

It is very nice, what exactly is it? I know what it is like to use the "undesirables" I have a shop full of stuff I don't feel comfortable selling to someone else and surely don't want to throw it away.

It is very nice, what exactly is it? I know what it is like to use the "undesirables" I have a shop full of stuff I don't feel comfortable selling to someone else and surely don't want to throw it away.

exactly! The fingerboard is cocobolo, which is very prone to cracking on the sapwood and sap/heartwood transition.

Here's the rough cut pickguard template and black perloid stock.

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/456/img2705ml5.jpg

LOoks good man!

Hope you get a real kick out of building this one!

Keep us posted...!

Man, even your scraps look awesome! I dig that fingerboard - see what you mean by the crack, but still, that's cool!

that fingerboard looks similar to this granadillo im using, very nice fingerboard btw, oh yea and i believe im right across the corner from your location right now, in west virginia on vacation with my family : D

I can't wait to see the progress on this one... I love the jazz you made so I'm excited to see how the p will turn out

i want to see how the neck looks with the sap. should be awsome.

Latest update please. I'm holdin' my breath!

Latest update please. I'm holdin' my breath!

sorry, I'm concentrating on finishing Bob's bass and haven't worked on this :(

I'm going to bump this just to keep this on the front page (and less forgettable! this one looks good--I want to see the rest!)

well, I've always hated PJ pickup configs, which is exactly why I'm doing it here :cool:

This is my version of the super-duper-ultra-mega-stacked-J-between-split-P-on-a-single-pickup design.

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/5895/img2715tv3.jpg

Pickup cover will be, as you can see, sappy cocobolo on top to match the fingerboard and mahogany to match the body.

well, I've always hated PJ pickup configs, which is exactly why I'm doing it here :cool:

This is my version of the super-duper-ultra-mega-stacked-J-between-split-P-on-a-single-pickup design.

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/5895/img2715tv3.jpg

Pickup cover will be, as you can see, sappy cocobolo on top to match the fingerboard and mahogany to match the body.


:eyebrow:

Intriguing...

wow...bazaar but very interesting.
We will need sound clips when it's done!!
:)

Nice idea on the pup I can imagine the outcome, a p mixed with the stack should level everything out sweetly. Will they be wired seperate?

Nice idea on the pup I can imagine the outcome, a p mixed with the stack should level everything out sweetly. Will they be wired seperate?

of course you know the sound, it's gonna be mid-humpy® :D

it will be wired as a single pickup.

I'm also re-thinking the pickguard ...maybe the pickguard is gonna look weird with all the woods ...I'm thinking about something more organic.

of course you know the sound, it's gonna be mid-humpy® :D

it will be wired as a single pickup.

I'm also re-thinking the pick guard ...maybe the pick guard is gonna look weird with all the woods ...I'm thinking about something more organic.

Mr. Wilser, Dude,
I was going to say that Grey pearl seemed be kind of a funky with the warm f-board colors (didn't want to be Mr.negative).

I know you haven't asked for suggestions, but:rolleyes:- - -

No doubt the sunburst would be cool, but picture this:
Body, P-head face, p-guard;
all matching solid off-white, or
all matching solid black.
IMHO that would be an awesome contrast to that highly figured/colored f-board and PU cover.

Must--resist -- urge- - to- - -do- - a- - -rendering!!

well, go ahead and pitch the idea with a few renderings, I won't complain ;) The main reason why I'm doing a burst is because I've never done it before and don't want to give my first shot on a customer's instrument.

btw, posting anything on the internet is implicitly asking for suggestions anyway, like it or not ;)

Mr. Wilser, Dude,
I was going to say that Grey pearl seemed be kind of a funky with the warm f-board colors (didn't want to be Mr.negative).

I know you haven't asked for suggestions, but:rolleyes:- - -

No doubt the sunburst would be cool, but picture this:
Body, P-head face, p-guard;
all matching solid off-white, or
all matching solid black.
IMHO that would be an awesome contrast to that highly figured/colored f-board and PU cover.

Must--resist -- urge- - to- - -do- - a- - -rendering!!

that pickup config only makes me more interested! I can't wait to see this one completed!

well, go ahead and pitch the idea with a few renderings, I won't complain ;) The main reason why I'm doing a burst is because I've never done it before and don't want to give my first shot on a customer's instrument.

btw, posting anything on the internet is implicitly asking for suggestions anyway, like it or not ;)

Cool
Not sure how accurate I got with the shapes and relative scaling:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/He1mut/32-4.jpg

Cool
Not sure how accurate I got with the shapes and relative scaling:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/He1mut/32-4.jpg

the pickguard is a little off between the pickup and the end of the fingerboard ...it should follow the line of the body a little better, but in general I think it looks great. The hardware is black, though, no way around that (as I'm reusing old hardware).

How about you render it with the original burst for comparison? (feel free to say "no" if it's too much work, though how bad of a person would you have to be to deny a convalescent man such a tiny wish).

BTW, if I do decide to go with the solid white, then I'll probably use the black perloid pickguard instead.

Another option to keep the 'organic feel' instead of a solid color is to go with the burst (it's a tobacco burst, by the way, not the 3 tone red one, which I really don't like) would be to use a yellow heart pickguard to kind of match the stripe going through the middle of the neck (and headstock).

playing the guilt card :D

Never liked the drastic 3 tone sunburst myself.
Did the yellowheart p-gaurd.
To me the purple P-head look funky with this set up,
so I took the liberty of throwing on a yellowheart face.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/He1mut/32-4-1.jpg

Wow, great renderings!

my $0.02:

I didn't like the pearloid pickguard either.

The all white looks slick, but it sounds like Mr. Wilser would like an opportunity to work on a burst and I think the burst with the yellow Pickguard and Peghead looks great and is a unique middle ground btw traditional and modern boutique.

I'm really digging the original idea of the burst with the yellowheart pickguard, but I will keep the headstock as the original was.

Thanks Uncle Bob, you're the best (just don't sit me on your lap :eek:)

All right, last one, the weekend's a callin'
Still think the purple peg head looks a bit funky.
Here's all three for comparison;

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/He1mut/32-4-2.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/He1mut/32-4-1.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/He1mut/32-4.jpg

(Not sure what to thnk on this "Uncle" business. A prolonged lack of maturity has been the secret to my youthfulness):rolleyes:.

All right, last one, the weekend's a callin'
Still think the purple peg head looks a bit funky.
Here's all three for comparison;

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/He1mut/32-4-2.jpg

(Not sure what to thnk on this "Uncle" business. A prolonged lack of maturity has been the secret to my youthfulness):rolleyes:.

yeap, that's the ticket. I like this one the best.

I can definitely see myself doing the white at some point, but going all the way, fingerboard, pickup cover and all. Chrome hardware and fretted, of course. That would be tasty! Let's see how this one turns out. Thanks again, Bob.

About the uncle thing ...make up your mind, it's either that or "Robert" ;)

I'm really digging the original idea of the burst with the yellowheart pickguard

Just what I was about to post!! wooden pickguards looks so cool!!

well, I've always hated PJ pickup configs, which is exactly why I'm doing it here :cool:

This is my version of the super-duper-ultra-mega-stacked-J-between-split-P-on-a-single-pickup design.

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/5895/img2715tv3.jpg

Pickup cover will be, as you can see, sappy cocobolo on top to match the fingerboard and mahogany to match the body.

wow! one of the things i like to mess with the most is pup configurations. this one really catches my eye. could you share how you wired it up as one pup? i wounder how it would be if you replased the j with a mm, or added an mm in a diff location. can't wait for sound clips. the closest idea i came up with for mixing up pj basses, was putting a p at the bridge (like on an 80's fender elite II), and a neck j, so it would be like a reverse special p

If this turns out sounding good, once I scrounge up some money you might be the first victim of an ENVIKA CUSTOM ORDER!

Leaving it fretless, are you?

How about knotty pine for the pickguard? Help Uncle Bob!

How about knotty pine for the pickguard? Help Uncle Bob!

EWww!, Mr. PJ!, How 'bout NOT-ee pine!(sorry about that BAD pun);):smug:
Oy, Wilser, look what you started with this "uncle" stuff.:rolleyes:

Seriously, I've been doing occasional renders in appreciation
for all the extra effort/upgrades Wilser's been putting into my fretless 7.

Normally, I charge an exorbitant fee!:D

EWww!, Mr. PJ!, How 'bout NOT-ee pine!(sorry about that BAD pun);):smug:
Oy, Wilser, look what you started with this "uncle" stuff.:rolleyes:

Seriously, I've been doing occasional renders in appreciation
for all the extra effort/upgrades Wilser's been putting into my fretless 7.

Normally, I charge an exorbitant fee!:D

and well worth it, if you ask me.

I agree about the renderings...Robert...you are truly gifted when it comes to bringing the graphics to life...before birth!!!

Wilser..the bass will be absolutely fantastic no matter what...I guarantee it...and I ain't even the guy building it...(Now that's strange...) :)

Anyhoo...what influenced your decision on the pickup configuration? It looks a bit odd to me...but who cares about the status quo? Go for it!

first track (after the intro) off of this record:
http://blog.mlive.com/mediumfidelity/2007/11/medium_dimensionh.jpg

Cool idea on the pickup. Are you doing it with the P bobbin magnets reverse polarity of the J magnets, so it's kind of a wide aperture humbucker, but split in positions?

Cool idea on the pickup. Are you doing it with the P bobbin magnets reverse polarity of the J magnets, so it's kind of a wide aperture humbucker, but split in positions?

no need. the split P will be reverse in relationship to each coil (as an independent P) and the J is stacked. Both will be wired in series in relationship to each of the coils and each of the separate "pickups". I added the stacked in order to add some "zing" to the P sound.

no need. the split P will be reverse in relationship to each coil (as an independent P) and the J is stacked. Both will be wired in series in relationship to each of the coils and each of the separate "pickups". I added the stacked in order to add some "zing" to the P sound.
OK, but aren't you then going to get different magnetic fields set up for the EA and the DG strings? This idea needs some modification once I have a better idea of how a stacked humbucker works, but my general idea is:
- if the for example the J is north up; the P-EA is N up, and the the P-DG is S up;
- then, looking from edge-on from the treble side, for the EA strings, there will be two coils, both N up, with "butterfly" field lines around each, like two single coil pups side by side, and the field lines "diving" down between them, and providing two different narrow apertures, one on each coil;
- but for the DG strings, two coils, one N up and on S up, so the field lines bridge across them, arcing from the core of one to the core of the other, like a conventional humbucker; thus creating a single wide aperture for both coils, and the same basic response in each.

That's how I imagine it working with a plain SC J in there. With the stacked J, I'd want a better idea of how that's designed to figure out the effects.

Maybe for a true single-field humbucker effect you need the magnet bridging the two coils underneath, which is missing here. But wouldn't it act some something like how i've described, or am I totally off base?

wow! one of the things i like to mess with the most is pup configurations. this one really catches my eye. could you share how you wired it up as one pup? i wounder how it would be if you replased the j with a mm, or added an mm in a diff location. can't wait for sound clips. the closest idea i came up with for mixing up pj basses, was putting a p at the bridge (like on an 80's fender elite II), and a neck j, so it would be like a reverse special p

wiring...that's more my "specialty"...the "P"s should be in series...the "J stack" in series and then those two pieces in parallel...

however...I'd wire it to a 3-way...P/Both/J

the wide stagger on the P will bring a definite "old school" vibe to the bass, by emphasizing the bass on the E/A and the treble on the D/G...

this pickup would KILL on a long-scale fretted...a slap-worthy instrument for SURE!

OK, but aren't you then going to get different magnetic fields set up for the EA and the DG strings? This idea needs some modification once I have a better idea of how a stacked humbucker works, but my general idea is:
- if the for example the J is north up; the P-EA is N up, and the the P-DG is S up;
- then, looking from edge-on from the treble side, for the EA strings, there will be two coils, both N up, with "butterfly" field lines around each, like two single coil pups side by side, and the field lines "diving" down between them, and providing two different narrow apertures, one on each coil;
- but for the DG strings, two coils, one N up and on S up, so the field lines bridge across them, arcing from the core of one to the core of the other, like a conventional humbucker; thus creating a single wide aperture for both coils, and the same basic response in each.

That's how I imagine it working with a plain SC J in there. With the stacked J, I'd want a better idea of how that's designed to figure out the effects.

Maybe for a true single-field humbucker effect you need the magnet bridging the two coils underneath, which is missing here. But wouldn't it act some something like how i've described, or am I totally off base?

you are, in essence, correct, but what do you think this will do to the sound? I don't understand what you are suggesting.

a stacked humbucker works like so:
imagine the rod magnet from the side one polarity up the other down. You wind one coil in one direction over the UP polarity, then another coil (in series) in the opposite over the DOWN polarity. It's basically a regular humbucker, but you're harnessing the single magnet and using the DOWN coil just for humcancelling purposes, not to pickup string vibrations.

a stacked humbucker works like so:
imagine the rod magnet from the side one polarity up the other down. You wind one coil in one direction over the UP polarity, then another coil (in series) in the opposite over the DOWN polarity. It's basically a regular humbucker, but you're harnessing the single magnet and using the DOWN coil just for humcancelling purposes, not to pickup string vibrations.

hey Wilser,

Im a little confused - if youre only using the lower coil to cancel hum, why would you need the lower magnet?

hey Wilser,

Im a little confused - if youre only using the lower coil to cancel hum, why would you need the lower magnet?

it's not a separate magnet, it's the same magnet polarized end to end. So you're just using the same product as you would a single coil, but offer it as a stacked for a different sound.

So, you've got long, single polepiece magnets running full through bothe coils, such as N on top and S underneath?

I'l do a drawing of what I'm trying to say re the field lines and "apertures."

So, you've got long, single polepiece magnets running full through bothe coils, such as N on top and S underneath?

I'l do a drawing of what I'm trying to say re the field lines and "apertures."

correct.

you are, in essence, correct, but what do you think this will do to the sound? I don't understand what you are suggesting.

a stacked humbucker works like so:
imagine the rod magnet from the side one polarity up the other down. You wind one coil in one direction over the UP polarity, then another coil (in series) in the opposite over the DOWN polarity. It's basically a regular humbucker, but you're harnessing the single magnet and using the DOWN coil just for humcancelling purposes, not to pickup string vibrations.

Okay, I posted a similar question to this in another thread, but nobody's replied.

Everyone always says it's "like a regular humbucker" but it's really not. In a regular humbucker you have reverse winding, reverse magnet. In a stacked, you have reverse winding only.

How does the bottom coil not pick up string vibrations? just because of distance?

-Nick

Okay, I posted a similar question to this in another thread, but nobody's replied.

Everyone always says it's "like a regular humbucker" but it's really not. In a regular humbucker you have reverse winding, reverse magnet. In a stacked, you have reverse winding only.

How does the bottom coil not pick up string vibrations? just because of distance?

-Nick

well, no essentially you have reverse polarity as well. the difference between it and the regular humbucker is that in the regular both coil/magnet combis are sensing the strings.

well, no essentially you have reverse polarity as well. the difference between it and the regular humbucker is that in the regular both coil/magnet combis are sensing the strings.

How do you have reverse polarity though? the magnet is facing the same direction.

I suppose it's just the increased distance which prevents the bottom coil from sensing the strings.

If this is the case, you might be able to get higher output by having the magnet only in the top coil, with a piece of soft iron as a shield between the two. If the inductance is mismatched, you could probably correct it by adding an unmagnetized soft iron slug in the bottom coil.

you would probably want to air-gap the shield at each magnet though, so you don't end up with a shorted turn.

-Nick

Yeah, but in this case, the bottom coil is not sensing the strings, because of -- why? I always assumed a stacked coil bucker would have a plate emerging from between the upper and lower coils, allowing the field to wrap around under the first coil before hitting the second. Is that not right?


Here's the diagram I was talking about.
- First is a single coil (magnetized polepiece), seen edge on. With field lines, and with the "most sensitive area" or what I think is generally called the aperture as a shaded area.
- second is a humbucker. Note the bar magnet between the plepiece extensions at the bottom; how the field only goes through the air at the top; and how there is a broad aperature created.
- third is how I imagine two closely mounted single coil (magnetized polepiece) pups working if both have the same pole up--similar to your J and one half of your P split pup. I figure there would be two narrow apertures, one for each coil.
- fourth is how I imagine two closely mounted single coil (magnetized polepiece) pups working if both have they have opposite poles up--similar to your J and the other half of your P split pup. It somewhat resembles a humbucker wide aperture.

These are just what seems right to me, figuring superposition of fields and and "attraction" of fields towards high permittivity objects (such as the other nearby polepieces). Maybe someone else has a different, better idea of this.

Field lines through air are shown; lines through magnets and polepieces not shown.

Yeah, but in this case, the bottom coil is not sensing the strings, because of -- why? I always assumed a stacked coil bucker would have a plate emerging from between the upper and lower coils, allowing the field to wrap around under the first coil before hitting the second. Is that not right?


My thoughts exactly, though I think the plate should be isolated, and have air gapping slots cut in it to prevent it acting as a shorted turn.

I think if you just put a plate on there directly it'll drop the output of the coil and have a slight magnetic braking effect on the string. How significant it would be, I have no idea.

-Nick

How do you have reverse polarity though? the magnet is facing the same direction.

I suppose it's just the increased distance which prevents the bottom coil from sensing the strings.except, I think, that the field is drawn by the low-magnetic-resistance polepieces all the way through both coils.If this is the case, you might be able to get higher output by having the magnet only in the top coil, with a piece of soft iron as a shield between the two.that's what I think I saw in a DiMarzio patent. If the inductance is mismatched, you could probably correct it by adding an unmagnetized soft iron slug in the bottom coil.

you would probably want to air-gap the shield at each magnet though, so you don't end up with a shorted turn.

-Nick

you are, in essence, correct, but what do you think this will do to the sound? I don't understand what you are suggesting.


Back to this subject, I think what pilotjones is suggesting is that you're going to have 2 strings for which the pickups are in phase, and 2 for which it is out of phase.

I suppose you could probably just flip the 2 right hand poles on the stack as well. That should fix the phase, but I bet it will change the balance between EG, and AD strings. A standard P setup would do this as well, but probably doesn't as much, since they're spaced differently.

I'm just thinking out loud here. I could be way off base.

Incidentally, I have a P+J that's always sounded lousy any time I blend the pickups. I guess I should check the polarities.

-Nick

the polarity of the magnet is not what makes a string be sensed one way or another, the magnetic field itself it's what's important and a magnet wire coil around or close to it so that the magnetic field can be disturbed and a voltage induced into the coil (what gets amplified and we end up hearing).

You have to remember that each coil works, essentially, individually and the only thing that makes it work in humbucking mode is the way it's wired or the direction it's wound. Because the stacked and the P will be wired as separate pickups, and then wired up serially, it would be no different than the quad coil J that schaller sells (it's basically 4 split pickups on a single MM-like - 2 split Js - in a single cover). My expectation is that whatever problem you see in the magnetic direction and closeness of the magnets is just theoretical and won't translate to any practical difference in sound as if the coils were further apart (other than the different position of the string on which they sense, of course).

your suggestion about magnetizing the two bottom string magnet sets of the stacked to match the other coil of the split is good. I think I might just do that.

Wil, with all respect, I think you're off on a few points. Time will tell, one way or the other.

Wil, with all respect, I think you're off on a few points. Time will tell, one way or the other.

hey, I don't get offended that easily. If I'm wrong I'd like to know where, please. Serious.

but I'm thinking about this logically, the way PJ setups are made and wired, mine is no different other than the position of the J.

Well, aside from the debate over stacked humbuckers in general-

I'd expect the fields to set up the way I indicated in those illustrations. So, two strings would get a pair of narrow apertures, and the other two strings would get one wide aperture. This is not an issue in a conventional PJ setup, since the distance between the pups precludes their interfering with, or colluding with, each other.

Well, aside from the debate over stacked humbuckers in general-

I'd expect the fields to set up the way I indicated in those illustrations. So, two strings would get a pair of narrow apertures, and the other two strings would get one wide aperture. This is not an issue in a conventional PJ setup, since the distance between the pups precludes their interfering with, or colluding with, each other.

I get what you say, but what are your conclusions regarding the sound?

the polarity of the magnet is not what makes a string be sensed one way or another, the magnetic field itself it's what's important and a magnet wire coil around or close to it so that the magnetic field can be disturbed and a voltage induced into the coil (what gets amplified and we end up hearing).

You have to remember that each coil works, essentially, individually and the only thing that makes it work in humbucking mode is the way it's wired or the direction it's wound. Because the stacked and the P will be wired as separate pickups, and then wired up serially, it would be no different than the quad coil J that schaller sells (it's basically 4 split pickups on a single MM-like - 2 split Js - in a single cover). My expectation is that whatever problem you see in the magnetic direction and closeness of the magnets is just theoretical and won't translate to any practical difference in sound as if the coils were further apart (other than the different position of the string on which they sense, of course).

your suggestion about magnetizing the two bottom string magnet sets of the stacked to match the other coil of the split is good. I think I might just do that.

My uneducated hunch is that it'll sound fine as long as you invert the two poles on the J. You might get some variation, probably mostly in output level between the pairs of strings, but I think it won't be significant.

If you mixed a P with half inverted, and a straight J, you'd probably get either a thin somewhat tinny sound on the high strings if they're mismatched on the treble, or a weak bassless tone on the low strings, if they're the ones reversed.

A P with both facing same direction, and a single coil J in the opposite direction would probably give a more consistent sound, but you would likely get a lot more hum due to mismatch in the coils.

I've just started playing with pickups though, so I'm just basing this on logic, not so much on experience. I can't wait to see how it works out.

for my next bass I'm actually planning on winding a very low impedance active, putting it right near the bridge and equalizing the crap out of it. Just deciding how to deal with the hum right now. I'll probably be doing a shielded stacked humbucker, or a single with a dummy coil.

Not sure yet though.

-Nick

My uneducated hunch is that it'll sound fine as long as you invert the two poles on the J. You might get some variation, probably mostly in output level between the pairs of strings, but I think it won't be significant.

I disagree...I don't think that inverting the poles of the J is necessary, at all


If you mixed a P with half inverted, and a straight J, you'd probably get either a thin somewhat tinny sound on the high strings if they're mismatched on the treble, or a weak bassless tone on the low strings, if they're the ones reversed.


IMO...the WAY to wire this is to build a straight-up stacked J, and a straight up split P...these can then be combined (or not)...like I said, 4-wires and a 3-way switch for P/parallel/J is the way to go...


A P with both facing same direction, and a single coil J in the opposite direction would probably give a more consistent sound, but you would likely get a lot more hum due to mismatch in the coils.



A P with both facing the same direction is just fundimentally wrong. You're correct, you will get hum.

Humcancelling comes from reverse wind. But when you reverse wind, it is then necessary to apply the polarity correctly, else you'll get phase cancellation. Phase cancellation = puny sounding pickup

I get what you say, but what are your conclusions regarding the sound?
Well, based on other pickups, two coils sharing a field at close distance should sound similar to a humbucker (they'd probably even closer if you bridged the undersides with a steel plate), while if the two coils not sharing a field are .963 apart., they should sound similar to a MM. Closer, and you're in unknown territory, I think.

I don't know man, this all "looks" good in theory, but like I said, I don't think it really makes a significant difference in the sound. I mean, think about it, if magnets of the same polarity up interfere with each other, why do so many pickup design use 2 magnets (close together) per string, all with the same polarity up?

I think you guys should arm wrestle over it.


But seriously, Wilser. Extremely cool design you have there. The pickup configuration makes me think of what the Delano Hybrid would be if it was a PJ instead of a MMJ. Can't wait to see it finished.

I don't know man, this all "looks" good in theory, but like I said, I don't think it really makes a significant difference in the sound. I mean, think about it, if magnets of the same polarity up interfere with each other, why do so many pickup design use 2 magnets (close together) per string, all with the same polarity up?
Those are two magnets in the same coil. They act like one magnet with a bit missing in the middle. Different situation. Two magnets in two different coils that are going to be wired together reversed in phase should be very different.



Maybe I could bring in a ringer--my company had an arm wrestling champonship (I wasn't involved!), and the winner is pretty formidable. ;)

hey, this is not a fight, is a friendly inquiry on both our parts, right?

Maybe I should just do a split J in the middle and kill any possible problems. I'll wire it as it is when the moment comes and if it doesn't work right I'll just make another split J bobbin.

Thanks for your insight, Peter.

PilotJones, Wilser - this has got to be one of the most heady discussions about pickups (or just about any other topic) I've ever read! You guys are freakin' me out! LOL

I've been following this thread for a while, but last night when I started digging into this discussion I realized just how far over my head all of this is - but it's fascinating and I want to learn more!

I am going to read it over a few dozen times and see if I can't learn a little something about magnetic fields, pickups, polarity and how it all factors into the sound generated.

hey, this is not a fight, is a friendly inquiry on both our parts, right?

Maybe I should just do a split J in the middle and kill any possible problems. I'll wire it as it is when the moment comes and if it doesn't work right I'll just make another split J bobbin.

Thanks for your insight, Peter.

My bet is it will work just fine the way you have it.

hey, this is not a fight, is a friendly inquiry on both our parts, right?

Of course. I don't understand why everyone on the internet assumes that a discussion must be an argument. I

I disagree...I don't think that inverting the poles of the J is necessary, at all

IMO...the WAY to wire this is to build a straight-up stacked J, and a straight up split P...these can then be combined (or not)...like I said, 4-wires and a 3-way switch for P/parallel/J is the way to go...

A P with both facing the same direction is just fundimentally wrong. You're correct, you will get hum.

Humcancelling comes from reverse wind. But when you reverse wind, it is then necessary to apply the polarity correctly, else you'll get phase cancellation. Phase cancellation = puny sounding pickup

My point is that if you have a P with two seperate coils, the EA and DG pairs are out of phase with each other. Not a big deal.

But if you combine that with a standard J pickup, you're going to have EA in phase, and DG out of phase between the two pickups, or vice-versa.

The flipped magnets on the J is a total guess.. I don't know if, or how well it'll work.

I know my P+J sounds kind of crappy with both pickups on full, sort of weak in the bass. I think the bass strings are out of phase. The P has way more bass than the J, so it overpowers it, and doesn't sound completely out of phase wrong, but it definitely sounds much better with either pickup soloed than it does combined.

As far as the "You're correct, you will get hum." thing goes, You have to keep in mind that with a P with a north orientation, and a J with a south orientation, you would have a humbucking effect much as you would with a badly mismatched humbucker. The hum comes from the fact that the coils aren't identical.

Hum cancellation will definitely be better with a standard set up P, and a stacked-bucker J, but I don't think the phase thing should be ignored, unless you plan on soloing a pickup all the time.

winding a J sized pickup split like a P might be an interresting way to do it, or perhaps wiring a stacked humbucking P, with both sides the same polarity (assuming you still want the stagger) Otherwise, 2 J style, or standard humbuckers make more sense. Probably the reason why that's usually how it's done.

-Nick

hey, this is not a fight, is a friendly inquiry on both our parts, right?

Maybe I should just do a split J in the middle and kill any possible problems. I'll wire it as it is when the moment comes and if it doesn't work right I'll just make another split J bobbin.

Thanks for your insight, Peter.

A split J in the middle would be cool.
You could use a fender 5-way switch to get these combos below) .
(Or so I think. Wilser is aware of my GREAT WEALTH of PU wiring knowledg-i-ness;))
Active coils in RED;

-1-------2--------3--------4------5
EA--- --EA-- ----EA--- ---EA-----EA
EADG---EADG----EADG--- EADG---EADG
- -DG-----DG-- ----DG------DG------DG

A split J in the middle would be cool.
You could use a fender 5-way switch to get these combos below) .
(Or so I think. Wilser is aware of my GREAT WEALTH of PU wiring knowledg-i-ness;))
Active coils in RED;

-1-------2--------3--------4------5
EA--- --EA-- ----EA--- ---EA-----EA
EADG---EADG----EADG--- EADG---EADG
- -DG-----DG-- ----DG------DG------DG


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! *in a doppler effect kind of falling and fading voice*

The pickup will be wired as a single unit, no switching or mixing or anything. Just 2 wires coming out of it and into the preamp.

Maybe this is the perfect chance to build that "pickup test bass" I've been wanting to put together for such a long time.

COL (chuckling out loud). Knew that would be a winner.
A preamp, eh? I figured this was going to be more old-school-ish.

Okay, just throwing crap on the cage, seeing what sticks- -
Two staggered 2-string unstacked humbuckers, - - -maybe?

A split J in the middle would be cool.
You could use a fender 5-way switch to get these combos below) .
(Or so I think. Wilser is aware of my GREAT WEALTH of PU wiring knowledg-i-ness;))
Active coils in RED;

-1-------2--------3--------4------5
EA--- --EA-- ----EA--- ---EA-----EA
EADG---EADG----EADG--- EADG---EADG
- -DG-----DG-- ----DG------DG------DG


cool..but

1 & 5 will sound extremely similar and they will both sound much like 2...

hence, we're back down to 2,3, & 4 :)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! *in a doppler effect kind of falling and fading voice*

The pickup will be wired as a single unit, no switching or mixing or anything. Just 2 wires coming out of it and into the preamp.

Maybe this is the perfect chance to build that "pickup test bass" I've been wanting to put together for such a long time.

wilser,

don't BUILD a pickup test bass...buy an SX and rout a huge caverness recess on the top...it will take much less time and investment on your part...

wilser,

don't BUILD a pickup test bass...buy an SX and rout a huge caverness recess on the top...it will take much less time and investment on your part...

great idea. as an engineer I'm supposed to think in terms of the simplest solution ...but also as an engineer I often don't and over-complicate things.

cool..but

1 & 5 will sound extremely similar and they will both sound much like 2...

hence, we're back down to 2,3, & 4 :)

:hmm: But, - - the other way is two more.

http://www.mentalfloss.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/Nigel.jpghttp://www.stiftungleostrauss.com/media/1/20060607-spinaltap.jpg

I do like the idea of the side-by-side-split J.

AFA one previous comment, I certainly hope this wasn't taken as an actual fight. I have nothing but respect for Wilser. When I extended the previous arm wrestling joke, I added a smiley to try to make positive intentions clear. I'm not really going to sick Bismark the Destroyer on anyone. :)

Want an interesting idea?
- side-split J, surrounded by the two halves of a P
- make the poles of the EA half J and the EA half P the same magnetic polarity up; likewise the opposite pole for the two DG halves, then
- make a steel inverted "T" that has its bar bridging the underside polepieces, and the stem poking up between the coils.
Should give two focused loops of flux, at the top, and be something like the field of Q-tuners with the screws raised.

I have always wanted to get into the ring with someone, but all my friends are pacifists ...not even my brother will do it. Maybe when I drive up to NYC to visit my dad you'll honor me with a half hour at the local Gym? ;)


BTW, you guys are totally taking this pickup out of proportion. I'm not doing any of that. The only thing in the plan right now (and will probably stick) is to build it as it is, if there is any noticeable sound difference (apart from the obvious) between the EA and DG pairs then I'll remove the stacked J and replace it with a split J, that's it.

Please leave this poor pickup alone already, go back to trashing the crack on the fingerboard, for goodness' sake!

I do like the idea of the side-by-side-split J.

AFA one previous comment, I certainly hope this wasn't taken as an actual fight. I have nothing but respect for Wilser. When I extended the previous arm wrestling joke, I added a smiley to try to make positive intentions clear. I'm not really going to sick Bismark the Destroyer on anyone. :)

Want an interesting idea?
- side-split J, surrounded by the two halves of a P
- make the poles of the EA half J and the EA half P the same magnetic polarity up; likewise the opposite pole for the two DG halves, then
- make a steel inverted "T" that has its bar bridging the underside polepieces, and the stem poking up between the coils.
Should give two focused loops of flux, at the top, and be something like the field of Q-tuners with the screws raised.

yep. I went crazy with the wiring on my first bass, and can do any combination of phase and blending in series or parallel.

Turns out I use 3 setups, bridge only, neck only, or both.

-Nick

That crack on the fingerboard is terrible, if if were me I would.....................
































Build a totally kick Arse pickup to draw attention from it!

That crack on the fingerboard is terrible, if if were me I would.....................Build a totally kick Arse pickup to draw attention from it!

Oh, Wilser's got that covered already.

Oh, Wilser's got that covered already.

I believe you missed the tongue-in-cheek there, my friend ;)

I believe you missed the tongue-in-cheek there, my friend ;)

Or lack there of......:( :D

I believe you missed the tongue-in-cheek there, my friend ;)

no i didn't...anyone who hangs around talkbass as much as i do must learn to separate the tongue-in-cheek from the serious.

I have always wanted to get into the ring with someone, but all my friends are pacifists ...not even my brother will do it. Maybe when I drive up to NYC to visit my dad you'll honor me with a half hour at the local Gym? ;)Hey, arm wrestling uses a table, not a ring... but if you're coming up to nyc, look me up and we'll have a beer, for sure. No joke.

Hey, arm wrestling uses a table, not a ring... but if you're coming up to nyc, look me up and we'll have a beer, for sure. No joke.

well, I don't want to armwrestle I wanna BOX! BOX (tan taaa, tan taaa) ;)

:hmm: But, - - the other way is two more.

http://www.mentalfloss.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/Nigel.jpghttp://www.stiftungleostrauss.com/media/1/20060607-spinaltap.jpg

I can't argue with that...:)

BTW, you guys are totally taking this pickup out of proportion. I'm not doing any of that. The only thing in the plan right now (and will probably stick) is to build it as it is, if there is any noticeable sound difference (apart from the obvious) between the EA and DG pairs then I'll remove the stacked J and replace it with a split J, that's it.

Please leave this poor pickup alone already, go back to trashing the crack on the fingerboard, for goodness' sake!

Sounds like a solid plan.

I for one, am really thankful for taking things way out of proportion. I learn more that way. :D

I'm working on building my first pickups now. It's kind of funny, actually. I decided on a split J type thing. (though it's a bit bigger)

To fly off on another tangent, has anyone tried building any low impedance pickups?
I plan to build mine with about 1500 turns of 32Ga wire per coil, which should be <100ohms or so.

Obviously they'll be active. Any thoughts?

great idea. as an engineer I'm supposed to think in terms of the simplest solution ...but also as an engineer I often don't and over-complicate things.

i'm an engineer, too...i know what you mean :)

i'm an engineer, too...i know what you mean :)
Likewise.

Likewise.

+1. Not as a profession, but certainly in mindset.
:D

same here
it could have something to do with spending so much time here in the corner.

You mean you guys were serious about all that pick-up stuff. wow!

You mean you guys were serious about all that pick-up stuff. wow!
That's right, flux and capacitance aren't just from Back To The Future! :)

Back to the fingerboard...

Wilser: Do you treat cocobolo any special way? I've heard wiping it down with acetone can help for gluing with particularly oily pieces.

I'm more wondering about surface finishes and stuff. I have a fairly nice piece of cocobolo (I've never seen an ugly piece, really.) that is a good size for a fretboard. I'm planning on putting it on a maple neck. Any problems with the oils bleeding and staining the maple.

Also, what about the toxic aspects of it, do you seal it?

Back to the fingerboard...

Wilser: Do you treat cocobolo any special way? I've heard wiping it down with acetone can help for gluing with particularly oily pieces.

I'm more wondering about surface finishes and stuff. I have a fairly nice piece of cocobolo (I've never seen an ugly piece, really.) that is a good size for a fretboard. I'm planning on putting it on a maple neck. Any problems with the oils bleeding and staining the maple.

Also, what about the toxic aspects of it, do you seal it?

yes, cocobolo will stain lighter colored woods it's glued to if you're not careful. This will also happen with ebony, ziricote, bloodwood and padauk (that I know of, there are probably lots others. these are all very different woods in terms of the oil content, so I'm not sure the fact that it's oily has anything to do with it). Wipe it down with any good quick evaporating solvent (I prefer naptha, but acetone, denatured alcohol and similar will work just as well ...do NOT use lacquer thinner or mineral spirits!) after you're done with the finish sanding, then carefully seal the lighter colored woods it's glued to with your preferred sealer as a wash coat (Larry has always recommended shellac to me and the waterbased shellac I've been using from target coatings works well and goes on thin).

So, you seal it before or after you glue the fretboard on?

That's right, flux and capacitance aren't just from Back To The Future! :)

So wait a minute are you saying that this bass will be capable of time travel :eyebrow: :cool:

So wait a minute are you saying that this bass will be capable of time travel :eyebrow: :cool:

Only if you can get it going at 88 mph...

Asad

I think it would require quite a bit of power, too...

I think it would require quite a bit of power, too...

How big an amp?

So, you seal it before or after you glue the fretboard on?

no no, I'm talking about the finishing process. If you just wipe on oil or brush on a finish the color will blend with the finish and transfer to the other woods.

So wait a minute are you saying that this bass will be capable of time travel :eyebrow: :cool:

YES! if you mean sound-wise. Anybody remember those crazy lines Bunny Brunnel used to play with Chick Corea on a fretless P? Add to that an envelope follower and get those funky sounds the alien brothers from the mother ship used to make.

I think it would require quite a bit of power, too...

Yeah, ask the power company how much it will cost to get a 20kA service that you'll need to get the 1.21 Jiggawatts necessary.

Of course, If you've got some plutonium, you're set.

I recommend you stick with class D and SMPS for efficiency, though.

YES! if you mean sound-wise. Anybody remember those crazy lines Bunny Brunnel used to play with Chick Corea on a fretless P? Add to that an envelope follower and get those funky sounds the alien brothers from the mother ship used to make.
Of coarse that was what I mean :confused: I don't know what those guys are talking about :confused:
;)

Yeah, ask the power company how much it will cost to get a 20kA service that you'll need to get the 1.21 Jiggawatts necessary.

Of course, If you've got some plutonium, you're set.

I recommend you stick with class D and SMPS for efficiency, though.


Ya gotta power it with recycled cans! And exotic wood chips.

haven't had like any image updates since page 2 can we please get some more?

haven't had like any image updates since page 2 can we please get some more?

no.

no.

LOL...:)

Sorry, am I expected to be serious?

Sorry, am I expected to be serious?

I would appreciate it that if you have nothing constructive to say that you would not post in this thread. This is a discussion on this build and the possibilities and it's time all the non-sense stopped.