I've been planning on attending Jeff Berlin's Players School in Clearwater, Fl. later this year but have recently had a hard time getting ahold of the school. Email, phone, etc.
I've left messages and emails without reply. Kinda weird. I know it's a mom and pop run kind of place but this is a little disconcerting to say the least.
Are any of you currently attending this school or does anybody have any pos./neg. comments that you've heard or experienced with this institution?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Thnx, chris

I attended in 2004 and concluded that it was a total waste of time/money.

Please don't make this mistake in thinking that Jeff Berlin's School will teach you how to hold a pocket, or groove. No sir ree bob. (You will study walking jazz basslines & arpeggios, depending how long you're there for, you will get theory classes, basic ear training & singing lessons, basically all things you could do from your home right now. Oh, you have to pay for Jeff's books to, their not provided for you.) That type of experience is better sought out in your local area, by gigging, shedding with other musicians, spending time with your instrument, or around others bassist's that are playing the way you desire to play. It's a real humbling journey, as you must already know, having to sit under guys that are at a level to where it looks effortless to them, or second natured.

And please, don't walk over to the Sam Ash music store across the parking lot and let on to those guys working there that you are down there studying, they wil really get a laugh out've that.

I attended The Players School for 8 &1/2 weeks (was going for the 10 week program before i came to my senses) and was placed in the beginners class (with about 2 other guys) apart from the real players (or guys that had been with the instrument for years) and the only thing i took away from my time spent at the school is that music is a firece competition and it segregates people, almost as worse as racism has.

The instructors that sit in on your ensembles will play to your level, meaning, when they discern what level your playing at, that's how much effort they expend in playing with you. I played on a very begginners level and it was so evident to me that their playing was almost dumbed down to such an extent. No matter how poorly you perform, it's always GREAT JOB, next! It's about $$$$. They have tutors provided but i got nothing out of them. A tutor throwing out ideas for different scales to play over chords meant absolutely nothing to me.

Jeff Berlin rarely entered our classroom ensemble times, rarely.

No one wants to be coupled with someone that is a lesser player than they are and so your development or growth is stifled, to an extent, as iron sharpens iron.

If you are a fan of the way Jeff Berlin plays, please, disregard my drivel asap!

If your idea of musicianship (for bass players) is holding a phat pocket, being enabled to hold the bottom down real proper, then please, view the Players School not answering the phones or returning your emails as a blessing in disguise, really.

Also, think about this, can you name 1 player (other than Jeff himself) that's currently out there now, that has really made it onto the world scene, and is out there espousing that school?

Interesting.

First, thanks so much for a reply.

We're coming from two different places, I think. I'm a somewhat advanced player that wants to go there to become an excellent sight reader. That IMO is my weak spot.

Please feel free to elaborate on your experience there. Where did you live? Did you work? HOw much playing experience did you arrive with? The "sam ash" thing. lol

Hey guys, I'm chiming in here because positivechris is a good friend of mine. We've known eachother for many years and have shared a great many gigs as bassists. As such, I like to think that I know him and his playing quite well.

fountainboy, it sounds like the program left a sour taste in your mouth. That is understandable but you make a great many assumptions about my friend with regards to where he's at and what he's expecting from this school. I can attest that he is at an advanced level, has a thorough understanding of the function of the bass and the pocket, and that he's mainly looking to improve his sight-reading skills. He and I spent many years together in the trenches, learning from other players, gigging like crazy and studying intensely at home. Furthermore, in Lawrence, KS there just aren't (and never have been) (m)any people there to work or study with whether it be a dedicated electric bass instructor or a specialized theory/sight-reading curriculum outside of the university. Even within the university, it was classical theory all the way with no instrument-specific application. I think this is what Chris was hoping to achieve with this school. If that expectation is unrealistic then by all means, it's great to know that. But it sounds like your response goes beyond a simple warning and touches on more personal issues.

He went down there to check it out and he said everything seemed pretty cool although the majority of students were stone-cold beginners. One thing that I wasn't aware of was how involved Jeff is in the whole curriculum, something which would be a deal-breaker for me. Enrolled as an advanced player, I'd be pretty pissed if I didn't get to study with him very often. Again, I'm not sure about the particulars of the advanced placement curriculum so maybe that's a naïve assumption on my part.

One last thing. While none of the people that have gone through his courses (that we know of) are world renown, I'm not sure that that's necessarily a viable barometer as to the quality of a school. Sure, it's comforting but in the end, it's about what you get out of it. In this day and age, fame in that respect counts for very little. Sure, Berklee touts many graduates that have become famous but there's so much hype surrounding that school it's ridiculous. From what I have heard of it recently, they are basically looking to churn out Matt Garrison clones since he graduated. How many "famous" players can you name that have come out of there in the last five years? It doesn't matter to me. There are thousands of players who never went to a big-name music performance school and still made a name for themselves, famous or not. Again, just my opinion of course.

Back OT, if anyone else has had experiences with The Player's School, please don't hesitate to chime in and let us know what you have heard or experienced there, good or bad!

Wait, you want to pay Jeff Berlin a bunch of money to improve your sight reading?? That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. Go out and get all the Bach piano stuff you can find, Anthony Vitti's Sight Reading Funk Rhythms, any Carol Kaye, Jamerson, etc. Just read out of that to a metronome for 30 minutes a day and you'll get way better. No need to go to a "school" for that.

Well Chris, I thought that other thread might've gotten closed due to the redundancy of the same topic but different forums and it did. Oh well.

Snarf does have a point but I think you are going there for more than just the sight reading, no?

Yes, sight reading is my main priority, which he stresses very much. But I'd also like to fill any gaps in my understanding of the fundamentals in all facets of playing.

And he's a fuggin blazing player. Who wouldn't want to sound like him?

I mean, his tone sucks but his technique, phrasing, and note choice is top shelf.

Interesting.

First, thanks so much for a reply.

We're coming from two different places, I think. I'm a somewhat advanced player that wants to go there to become an excellent sight reader. That IMO is my weak spot.

Please feel free to elaborate on your experience there. Where did you live? Did you work? HOw much playing experience did you arrive with? The "sam ash" thing. lol

Jeff's wife (Vikki) was the coordinator for rooming & boarding at The Player's School and she suggested that she had a friend that owned a condo that i could rent. The problem was the price, $1500.00 per month. After informing her that that wasn't a viable option, she then relayed to me about another student in the same perdicament, needing housing, and reccomended me leaving my phone number with her, for her to pass onto him, so that me & him could see if something could be worked out between us, to defer the costs.

Me & him talked and each ponied up $750.00. The condo was beautiful, to say the least. We were down there living like millionares. I drove all the way down from Maryland (17 hour ride buddy) he flew in from Arizona. The condominums (sp?) were called East Woodlake, Woodland. Simply beautiful. We had a lake in our backyard (with a live crocodile that surfaced once or twice during our stay there) my roomate left after his 4 week course but i was persuaded by Jeff & his staff that my playing would improve immensely if i could somehow lengthen my stay.

There was a drummer studying at the school that was paying close to $1,000.00 a week in hotel fee's, so i suggested to him to save that money and come stay with me, as my roomate was leaving and had more than enough space (ie: the real reason being, is that he had money coming out've his nose and i wanted him to pay for me & him both, which he did after coming by and seeing the condominium.)

As to me working, i had to humble myself down and swallow my pride & took a gig delivering pizza's at dominoes as there are no jobs in that part of Florida. It's like 1 big retirement community, golf courses & beaches everywhere. (Working at Domino's the advantages were eating free + learning how to navigate the Clearwater Florida area + meeting any single ladies that opened the door)

As to my playing experience, i had only been playing the bass for about 2 years, no prior musical experience at all. Nothing. Just a love for the instrument and i didn't know how to 'get into playing it' and thought that studying at the school would have me departing there head & shoulders above these 'street players' out here. Boy was i wrong!

You are more experienced with the language of music that i was/am, but still, i wouldn't travel from Kansas to Florida to study sightreading with Jeff. You'll see what i mean once you get there & get settled.

Jeff has antiquated ideas about how things really operate in the real world, as this isn't the 60's or 70's anymore. Gigs are drying up left & right, being a first call session guy is moreso about politics and who you know. Playing jingles & commercials is something that only a person who is properly immersed into that line of work would even get reccomended for such a gig. All that theory stuff goes clear out've the window when you get with other musicians, feel & groove (timing) takes precedence.

Jeff has guys drop in to the school from cruise ships (as all the major cruise lines dock/depart from Florida) that are looking for musicians, but who can just abandon their lives & families and hop scotch and sail the 7 seas at a moments notice, unless, you're a 18 year old fresh out've high school, because everyone else seems to have obligations. Really it's a fanciful idea.

Oh, you can read? Good for you! Pulling out a score & reading it down is wonderful if your goal is to audition at a Walt Disney World Theme Park or be a stand by for gigs on Broadway.

Also, make sure when you go that Jeff is actually there. He travels & tours to ya know.

Yes, sight reading is my main priority, which he stresses very much. But I'd also like to fill any gaps in my understanding of the fundamentals in all facets of playing.

And he's a fuggin blazing player. Who wouldn't want to sound like him?

I mean, his tone sucks but his technique, phrasing, and note choice is top shelf.


I'm just now seeing this Chris, but understand that Jeff was a violin prodigy before he turned himself onto the bass.

At a very young age he had mastered the violin, as Jeff may or may not let you on to this.

He just transferred what he was playing on the violin to the bass. Some love it (like you yourself) others aren't impressed as he sounds very notey + dull in his playing. Yes, correct notes but nothing that'll hold the average non musicians intrests the way a groover can.

Jeff will tell you that he is striclty a soloist and really doesn't like to cope outside of that realm. (sit in a pocket)

Oh, you can read? Good for you! Pulling out a score & reading it down is wonderful if your goal is to audition at a Walt Disney World Theme Park or be a stand by for gigs on Broadway.

And make a living playing music, you forgot that.

And make a living playing music, you forgot that.


right...right....

:D

Nice soloing in your signature, btw. Berklee, right?

Interesting.

First, thanks so much for a reply.

We're coming from two different places, I think. I'm a somewhat advanced player that wants to go there to become an excellent sight reader. That IMO is my weak spot.


Just going to Jeff's school isn't going to be enough to sight read i.e. picking up a piece of music and nailing it the first time you read it. Try to find musical situations where reading is required like a community orchestra, a big band or small theatrical productions. Read anything you can get your hands on and do it every day. Wash, rinse, repeat. :D

I don't know anything about the school but don't go there to learn to sight read! As others have said, this is something that you CAN learn yourself. Primarily it takes consistent practice. You need to dedicate at least 1/2 hour a day to it for two months. You'll be amazed at your progress. There are plenty of books out there, but a good one to get you started is:

Sight Reading for the Bass, by Ron Velosky.

Of course you need to find other materials to practie reading in addition to the exercises in the book. You can find all sorts of music in bass clef on the internet.

I am sure that you would get more out of the school if you could already sight read when you arrive.

There's no surer way to spark controversy than to mention Jeff's name! ;) I've never had any involvement with the Player's School, but having taught and studied in many schools over the years, I can state with confidence that NO music school or teacher has any "secret tricks" to instantaneously turn you into a brilliant, advanced player. The hard truth is that significant advancement takes a lot of time and a lot of hard work. Some teachers and schools, however, will waste your time with lack of substantial musical content or musical "spoonfeeding" of TABs, etc. I studied with Jeff at MI years ago, and although I haven't always agreed with all of his dogmatic philosophies, I think it's fair to say that he's committed to providing real substance, and that's about all you can ask of any teacher.

I'll thro in my 2 cents here, as I'm currently taking a 10 week course at PSOM:

Going to the school won't make you a good, or even a better player UNLESS you are willing to work and practice. I'm slowly learning stuff I need to build a good solid foundation to my playing. Will I be as good as Jeff? No way! At least not in this short period of time... if I keep playing for 40 years or however long, maybe, but probably not. What I'm going to get out of it is like I said, a good foundation with which to build upon, and stuff to fill in the gaps in my knowledge, technique, etc. After seeing another thread about how much Berklee's tuition is, the tuition here is nothing.

And one more thing- I've only been around Jeff for 2 days so far (and I have a lesson with him tomorrow), but he doesn't come across as the egotistcal maniac people make him out to be. He's a man, he know what he believes, and he has the conviction to tell others what he feels without wavering. I for one find it refreshing to find someone who stands by what he believes, no matter who or what come after him. And, looking at pictures throughout the school, seeing the HEAVY names he's played with throughout his career, I for one am more apt to listen when he speaks, whether I agree 100% or not.

I've been to study at PSOM for one month, and found that month I picked up a heck of a lot.

I treated it like a job. Turn up at 0900, absorb everything I could in classes, sight read and practice the rest of the time, jam when I could with anyone who fancied it, and went home at 1700, to do a little homework (ear training, some writing out of harmony exercises) and relax.

I noticed a big improvement in my playing around 3 months, even though I was only there for one month. Mainly because I kept going with the practice regime they instituted, and incorporated some changes to my LH technique that Jeff taught me.

6 and a bit months later, I still practice as often as possible (given I have a demanding day job, not always easy) and I am a much better player all around, including having a more solid grasp of harmony and treble clef as well as bass clef.

I've posted my review of the school in another thread - http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374716 - and I intend to return next year.

The point has been made that you get what you put in. That, from my experience, is correct. There are plenty of flakes at the school - like any school - but the guys who want to play find each other quick enough, and the teachers were happy to give me extra work/teaching when I wanted, because I was motivated.

And the reason most people get told 'good job' is....for them, and their level of playing, they ARE doing a good job! When you are a beginner, every little step of improvement costs time and effort, and the teachers recognise that. It may not sound like genius playing to you, but when you compare players to what they were like the week beofre...there is a big difference. Moreover, I saw a few people get chewed out publicly for not practising, or not doing the homework, etc...

Pete

I don't have any experience with The Players' School either. But I've been a fan of Jeff's teaching since he was writing a column for "International Musician and Recording World" in the '70s. Bassandbeyond says "... that NO music school or teacher has any "secret tricks" to instantaneously turn you into a brilliant, advanced player." That is exactly Jeff's philosophy. Secrets, tricks, etc. are pointless things, but are useful for selling stuff. Berlin has always been opposed to that kind of thinking and focuses on key components of MUSIC.

And in person (I've talked to him breifly at NAMM shows, and attended a seminar at a local store) he's much more personable and open than he comes off in his writings. In fact, the last interveiw I read with him, he talked about that. He said in the past he was pretty unapproachable and not a nice person to be around. He's not done much writing in columns or posting on web-sites since then so maybe his public persona is controlled by some of his more blatant dogmatisims.

jte

Jeff Berlin the person, i had no problems with. (which preceded a blow up of his) He indeed got on my case right before i bounced, when he (by way of David Via, the drum teacher & Matt Bokulic, the theory & harmony teacher) found out that i was trying to get a copy of a transcription that we had to sightread & solo over, days prior to it being released to our ensemble class as a whole.

That annoyed him, and he shamed me before our ensemble class about it. My feelings were deeply hurt + i was embarrased to be yelled at in that manner, but what can you do? I rolled out. Jeff's reasonings were along the lines that i wasn't fully absorbing the materials at hand, before i was trying to get a headstart on the following weeks tune.

Despondent & depressed at being down there for 8 weeks and us not delving into the stlye of playing that i was after (rhythmicy & pockety) my solemn take was that i was mislead in how i viewed what the School had to offer. I mean, to my ears, i really didn't sound like the groovy bass
players that i wanted to understand & emulate what it is they were doing, all the rhythmic & pocket stuff, with the masterful fills. Also, i was barely treading water to keep up, as much as was being thrown at us, and demanded, so any little advantage i could get, i was gonna take it. Besides, after class, i had to sling those pizzas, so my time was limited. (and that's not to say that i was the only cat down there that had to report to work in the afternoon after class)

Also, it pissed me off that i couldn't look over the following weeks tune, i mean, all the money i'm paying this school and i can't get a copy of the transcription a few days early, are you kidding me? What was it hurting? Besides, we played tunes week after week and had i continued in my studies there, i'm sure i would've taken notice to some reoccuring patterns in the language of music, as most songs follow the circle of 5th's & vary only slightly in a different chord here & there & maybe differering rhythms. (we studying & analyzing jazz standards)

I also noted that those guys that could read a bit better than i could, when you took the sheet music away from them, they had nothing, and as bass players, we dread that. I came to the conclusion that i would perfer being an ignorant street musican with great timing & feel, as opposed to a studied Berlin clone with little to offer any prospective bandmates, as i relied on sheet music as opposed to having a dynamic ear.

Jeff Berlin the person, i had no problems with. (which preceded a blow up of his) He indeed got on my case right before i bounced, when he (by way of David Via, the drum teacher & Matt Bokulic, the theory & harmony teacher) found out that i was trying to get a copy of a transcription that we had to sightread & solo over, days prior to it being released to our ensemble class as a whole.

That annoyed him, and he shamed me before our ensemble class about it. My feelings were deeply hurt + i was embarrased to be yelled at in that manner, but what can you do? I rolled out. Jeff's reasonings were along the lines that i wasn't fully absorbing the materials at hand, before i was trying to get a headstart on the following weeks tune.

Despondent & depressed at being down there for 8 weeks and us not delving into the stlye of playing that i was after (rhythmicy & pockety) my solemn take was that i was mislead in how i viewed what the School had to offer. I mean, to my ears, i really didn't sound like the groovy bass
players that i wanted to understand & emulate what it is they were doing, all the rhythmic & pocket stuff, with the masterful fills. Also, i was barely treading water to keep up, as much as was being thrown at us, and demanded, so any little advantage i could get, i was gonna take it. Besides, after class, i had to sling those pizzas, so my time was limited. (and that's not to say that i was the only cat down there that had to report to work in the afternoon after class)

Also, it pissed me off that i couldn't look over the following weeks tune, i mean, all the money i'm paying this school and i can't get a copy of the transcription a few days early, are you kidding me? What was it hurting? Besides, we played tunes week after week and had i continued in my studies there, i'm sure i would've taken notice to some reoccuring patterns in the language of music, as most songs follow the circle of 5th's & vary only slightly in a different chord here & there & maybe differering rhythms. (we studying & analyzing jazz standards)

I also noted that those guys that could read a bit better than i could, when you took the sheet music away from them, they had nothing, and as bass players, we dread that. I came to the conclusion that i would perfer being an ignorant street musican with great timing & feel, as opposed to a studied Berlin clone with little to offer any prospective bandmates, as i relied on sheet music as opposed to having a dynamic ear.

Okay, after reading this, and I may be the only one that thinks this, but it seems like the problem was you, not the school.

First off, if you were looking to learn certain things, cool, but it shows plain as day on the website just what to expect to learn at the school. There is nothing about learning to groove or play a pocket. IMHO, those things come from real world experience, playing with other musicians, etc. What PSOM teaches are the foundational bulding blocks that a working musician needs in the real world as a sideman, studio cat, or live performer. Whose to say that you're not going to be asked to play with a chart, a chord sheet etc.? And learning chord tones as opposed to scales and modes seems to be a much better way of becoming a well-rounded musician.

Secondly, no matter what you say or think, the teachers are there to help you become a better player. It's not going to do you anything to breeze through music and keep asking for more as soon as you're "done" with what has been given you. If a teacher felt you weren't at the level you thought you were at, well, perhaps a talk with you was necessary. Not a public verbal abusing mind you, but a talk. I dunno, I'm sure there was a reason behind the blow-up. Sure, Jeff may have a short fuse, but that just seems a little ridiculous. As someone else mentioned, he may have made a concious decision to change since 04.

Lastly, reading isn't everything, but it's important to being a working musician. I'm a guy who plays by ear. I'm slowly learning to read, but as far as soloing or improvising, I'm horrible, but despite that, I'd probably do better without music than with. I'm practicing and doing what I can to make it so that despite whether I have a chart or not, I'll be able to play what's right for the music.

I think that the whole point I'm making is this- the PSOM is only what you make of it. Whatever you put in, you'll get out, perhaps moreso. If you think going there and coasting, maybe doing the homework, kinda practicing is going to make you better, then yes, finding another place might be a good idea. However, if you're willing to sacrifice and work hard, and really bear down and put your mind to it, you'll come out a better player. I'm saying this after 2 days! I feel like a much worse player than when I came, especially since all my weaknesses and flaws are out in the open... but you know what? That's going to make me stronger. And fountainboy, you may be happy being a street player with feeling, but I'd much rather be a knowledgable MUSICIAN working my tail off, getting gig after gig, than to be the pathetic "bass owner" (Jeff's words, not mine) I used to be. Just my 2 cents.

Hey Fountain Boy

I studied music at the University level for 6 years and they didn't teach me how to play in the pocket, how to groove, how to sight read, how to get a gig or any of that other stuff you're complaining about. They really didn't even teach me how to play bass.

Their job was teach to teach me about the art of music. How I applied it was up to me. I could have been a performance major, a composition major, a music theory major, a music history major, a music education major, etc. but I never had the expectation that I was going to be taught how to play bass or groove. It was up to me to apply that information to my own practice schedule. You could say that music school taught me how to practice.

From your description, that seems to be what the Player's School did and that wasn't the information you wanted.

onlyclave- you summed up my novel into a pamphlet!

Jeff Berlin the person, i had no problems with. (which preceded a blow up of his) He indeed got on my case right before i bounced, when he (by way of David Via, the drum teacher & Matt Bokulic, the theory & harmony teacher) found out that i was trying to get a copy of a transcription that we had to sightread & solo over, days prior to it being released to our ensemble class as a whole.

That annoyed him, and he shamed me before our ensemble class about it. My feelings were deeply hurt + i was embarrased to be yelled at in that manner, but what can you do? I rolled out. Jeff's reasonings were along the lines that i wasn't fully absorbing the materials at hand, before i was trying to get a headstart on the following weeks tune.

Despondent & depressed at being down there for 8 weeks and us not delving into the stlye of playing that i was after (rhythmicy & pockety) my solemn take was that i was mislead in how i viewed what the School had to offer. I mean, to my ears, i really didn't sound like the groovy bass
players that i wanted to understand & emulate what it is they were doing, all the rhythmic & pocket stuff, with the masterful fills. Also, i was barely treading water to keep up, as much as was being thrown at us, and demanded, so any little advantage i could get, i was gonna take it. Besides, after class, i had to sling those pizzas, so my time was limited. (and that's not to say that i was the only cat down there that had to report to work in the afternoon after class)

Also, it pissed me off that i couldn't look over the following weeks tune, i mean, all the money i'm paying this school and i can't get a copy of the transcription a few days early, are you kidding me? What was it hurting? Besides, we played tunes week after week and had i continued in my studies there, i'm sure i would've taken notice to some reoccuring patterns in the language of music, as most songs follow the circle of 5th's & vary only slightly in a different chord here & there & maybe differering rhythms. (we studying & analyzing jazz standards)

I also noted that those guys that could read a bit better than i could, when you took the sheet music away from them, they had nothing, and as bass players, we dread that. I came to the conclusion that i would perfer being an ignorant street musican with great timing & feel, as opposed to a studied Berlin clone with little to offer any prospective bandmates, as i relied on sheet music as opposed to having a dynamic ear.



Getting publically lambasted over something as ridiculous as you descibed sucks and the fact that you were embarrassed by someone you look up to makes it even worse, it was totally uncalled for.
That having been said, it appears as if that incident, and some unrealistic expectations colored your entire experience.

I studied at the school for a bunch of months. I learned a ton and listened to what the teachers had to say. I benefited from it completely and never had any experience even close to yours fountain boy.

Tell Jeff in your private lesson with him, that you would like to get your sightreading chops up. He'll help you out with that, and everything else bass-playing related.

Of course, you'll only get something out of the school if you practice - and I did. Those who didn't complained that they weren't getting anything about it. Those who did are gigging professionally right now.

[QUOTE=NicJimBass;5969736]Okay, after reading this, and I may be the only one that thinks this, but it seems like the problem was you, not the school.

First off, if you were looking to learn certain things, cool, but it shows plain as day on the website just what to expect to learn at the school. There is nothing about learning to groove or play a pocket.

Sorry Nic, i stopped reading after i got thus far.

Our takes on what constitutes a great bass player may differ greatly, but, to paraphase Hamlet 'To groove, or not to groove, is the question'.

There should be no other idealogy propounded intially, other than focusing on timing & pocket playing, imho. A burgenoning bass player, looking for guidance & tutelage, not inculcated with this principle, will forever be a frustrated and out of his element bass player, out from under Jeff's loving arms & insulated enviorment. :D

To speak to your statement that Jeff's website doesn't have the requisite that students will be required to sit down and display some understanding of syncopation & drum interaction (which should be mandatory) is to me, sort've like going to a restuaraunt to eat and not expecting your meal to be served on a plate. It's something that shouldn't have to be mentioned or asked for, imo. It just is. (or should be)

What Mr. Berlin pre-supposes, again, is that, if you can play jazz, you can play anything (this is a loose paraphrase) which is a fallacy. Having an understanding of jazz supposes that the other basic tenets of bass playing are grasped and in tact. (timing & pocket) Being fluent in jazz almost implies that you are familiar with the other 'lessser' styles of music.

Can i really learn & grasp the spirit of a complex language (communication) without have some basic tenets of speech under my belt? It's crawling before you can walk.

Sure, i went wrong in estimating that a bass school wouldn't let me progress any further, if i didn't have my timing together. With jazz playing, you can possibly scoot by with poor timing (we were always walking quarter notes w/ a triplet thrown in for that upright walking effect) as the primary focus was note choice, not on feel, not on timing, or any other real world coping skills that one should be exposed to.

I found myself deficient, when i would walk over over to the Sam Ash or drive down to the Guitar Center off Hillsborough and hear guys (that may, or may have not known theory) that understood & displayed the spirit of true bass playing, imho.

Ok, so the majority of what they played were from the pentatonic scale, with pentatonic bass runs. However, they all seemed to make everyone in the vicinty feel good & grin from ear to ear after listening to them for a short while.

That's bass playing that i'm after.

That's bass playing that i'm after.

Not to be rude, but...really? The kind that people play at Sam Ash and Guitar Center?

Okay, after reading this, and I may be the only one that thinks this, but it seems like the problem was you, not the school


[of Sam Ash wankers]....That's bass playing that i'm after.

Well, I don't know what to say about this. I find it somewhat analogous to studying british literature at Oxford and complaining that they are beating "that oldy english" over your head when you would rather read Robert Ludlum because you "feel him"...and why are they stuck in the 1700's anyway? Don't they know that nobody reads that stuff in the real world anymore?

I'm really perplexed as to why you went in the first place. You obviously 1) do not like the way he plays 2) do not agree with Jeff's teaching philosophies and 3) have no interest in what most would agree is a semi-traditional musical education (harmony/theory/reading).

If I fault the school at all, it's because they didn't realize sooner that you were a poor fit and cut you loose. I think they owed you that much.

To the OP, look into what PSOM offers and see if it's for you. If you simply want to be a feel player, which is what I am/ was, and what fountainboy wantes to be, then this is probably not the school for you. If you want to learn the fundamentals of not just bass playing, but music in general, then check them out. But for the love of Pete, don't expect them to do something if they clearly advertise something else!

Foutainboy, I'll end with this- I understand what you're saying about the guys at SA & GC... I've been to both many times and have heard both good and bad players. I've always wanted to be a good player, but I am not a self-motivated learner at all. Regardless, my ear is great, and I can add something to most any song I hear. HOWEVER, in the music industry, as a working musician, I don't think with my limited knowledge/ reading/ whatever, that I would stand much of a chance. I'm adding those things to my arsenal, along with my already-good timing and groove, in order to maximize my deadliness within the industry. If you're cool being one of those guys who go to the music store to show off his chops, by all means, but it seems that the only people who are really listening are other shoppers and the staff.

Well, I don't know what to say about this. I find it somewhat analogous to studying british literature at Oxford and complaining that they are beating "that oldy english" over your head when you would rather read Robert Ludlum because you "feel him"...and why are they stuck in the 1700's anyway? Don't they know that nobody reads that stuff in the real world anymore?

I'm really perplexed as to why you went in the first place. You obviously 1) do not like the way he plays 2) do not agree with Jeff's teaching philosophies and 3) have no interest in what most would agree is a semi-traditional musical education (harmony/theory/reading).

If I fault the school at all, it's because they didn't realize sooner that you were a poor fit and cut you loose. I think they owed you that much.

Here, let me untie the knot for you. The Player School welcomes one & all, due needing funding ($) primarily. That's the short answer.

There's a reason why Berklee, MIT and a host of other accredited schools require you to audition first. Their not in the business of spoon feeding anyone. You must demonstrate to them that you are competent enough to get their instructors time/attention. If you are studying the bass guitar, whoever asseses your video, must see that you posses an awareness, or demonstrate to them, that you can sit in a pocket, among other things (like knowing a variety of styles, etc). There not backtracking to make sure 1st base is covered. No way on God's green earth, even if i could've paid them cash money for the whole semester upfront, would i be permitted to study up there. It's just not going to happen.

Also, if i lacked rudimentary reading skills, trying to undertake reading anything besides Green Eggs & Ham by Dr. Seuss would be futility, let alone something from the 17th century, lol.

Any private school needs your funding to stay afloat, it's just that Berklee can't afford to have you there flunking out when you spot in the school could be filled by someone who will stay for the duration of their degree program and pay the full amount or tuition.

You shouldn't be blaming The Player's School for anything other than not cutting you loose sooner and sending you to a guitar store bass teacher to get what you were after.

Gosh, I think we're being awfully hard on Fountainboy here. I know firsthand how disappointing it can be to meet one of your idols and find out that you just don't "click" with them personally or educationally. I actually had the exact same experience with Jeff 20 years ago, and I wound up mostly avoiding him for the rest of the year. But in retrospect, I regret that and wish that I had just gotten over the personal differences in order to glean as much information as possible from him. You have indicated that you did get a lot of new information to work on during your time at PSOM, so I would say that means you did get your money's worth, even if you don't see the relevance of it all yet. Yes, pocket and groove are important. Yes, knowledge of harmony and jazz vocabulary are important, too. These are not mutually exclusive approaches to making music. It is all stuff that you will need to master sooner or later.

Gosh, I think we're being awfully hard on Fountainboy here. I know firsthand how disappointing it can be to meet one of your idols and find out that you just don't "click" with them personally or educationally. I actually had the exact same experience with Jeff 20 years ago, and I wound up mostly avoiding him for the rest of the year. But in retrospect, I regret that and wish that I had just gotten over the personal differences in order to glean as much information as possible from him. You have indicated that you did get a lot of new information to work on during your time at PSOM, so I would say that means you did get your money's worth, even if you don't see the relevance of it all yet. Yes, pocket and groove are important. Yes, knowledge of harmony and jazz vocabulary are important, too. These are not mutually exclusive approaches to making music. It is all stuff that you will need to master sooner or later.

Yeah you're right. Sorry about that. You can't blame the guy because it wasn't his bag.

Gosh, I think we're being awfully hard on Fountainboy here. I know firsthand how disappointing it can be to meet one of your idols and find out that you just don't "click" with them personally or educationally. I actually had the exact same experience with Jeff 20 years ago, and I wound up mostly avoiding him for the rest of the year. But in retrospect, I regret that and wish that I had just gotten over the personal differences in order to glean as much information as possible from him. You have indicated that you did get a lot of new information to work on during your time at PSOM, so I would say that means you did get your money's worth, even if you don't see the relevance of it all yet. Yes, pocket and groove are important. Yes, knowledge of harmony and jazz vocabulary are important, too. These are not mutually exclusive approaches to making music. It is all stuff that you will need to master sooner or later.

Thank you bassandbeyond.

I have no problems embracing our differing of opinions of those that attended The Players School, or those who have interacted with Jeff during the years.

I knew nothing of Jeff previously, wasn't a fan of his, or his playing. I didn't idolize Jeff in the least bit. I only had a passion for trying to understand the bass & playing it & the Players School accepted students as they were, without any real previous real world qualifications or academia. I hastedly brought into the idea that a school would enable me to attain what i had in mind of how i heard the bass being played. Not fully realizing that what i desired to learn, was a by product of immersing myself in the enviorment/culture.

Trust me, if Nathan East, or a Andrew Gouche had a school i would've easily went that route over Berlin's anyday.