can anyone help me out with this? thanks!

http://www.studybass.com/tools/chord-scale-note-printer/

;)

D.Don

well, what in particular? Do you need tabs? If not, just take your E maj and flat the 3 and 7. Done.

well, what in particular? Do you need tabs? If not, just take your E maj and flat the 3 and 7. Done.


Unless you want natural minor, then you have to flat your 6 too. The scale mentioned above would be your E Dorian. Also works great over minor. Gotta love that Natural 13.

Hey thanks! I tried to help someone out, and got helped out myself. I edited it, and was about to erase it,because I wasnt 100% sure. Guess my second guessing was warranted.

Ahh Dorian and Mixolydian... They fit over just about anything don't they?

Which E minor scale would you prefer? There's more than one minor scale.

Aeolian (aka Natural Minor), Dorian, Phrygian, Harmonic, Melodic, Pentatonic, Blues, BeBop?

Ahh Dorian and Mixolydian... They fit over just about anything don't they?

Err no.... Mixolydian has a major 3rd not a minor 3rd so one of the two main chord quality notes is wrong.

Simple answer to OP question is any scale with a flat 3rd and flat 7th. Now they all have different color tones. The a better answer you need to know how the Emi7 is functioning such as....

i in minor (aeolian)
II in major (dorian)
III in major (Phrygian)
iv in minor
vi in major (locrian)

Could be a chord sub such as iii or vi for a I major chord. Those are a few ways it may be functioning.

E F# G A B C D

can anyone help me out with this? thanks!

Without context, I tend to see a m7 chord as "two" or the "dorian mode".

E Dorian (2nd mode of D major)

E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D, E

I have really come to accept that with music, there are no "rules". You can do anything you want. Of course, everyone will have their own opinion about how it sounds. I listen to a lot of music that might be considered "out there". I like it. It's not right or wrong, just different.

Peace & Music,
Joe

can anyone help me out with this? thanks!

Em7 is generally considered a chord rather than a scale. Also it is advisable to write it as emin7 to avoid any ambiguity.

From my point of view, Jayarroz wrote out what most would typically called the Em7 scale. Yes, it's a chord name, but it can also be a scale, and people who don't know the Greek modes use the chord names instead.

I don't think it's ever advisable to write the E as a small e, but most people would understand you either way. Personally, I never write Emin7 - takes too long.

Without context, I tend to see a m7 chord as "two" or the "dorian mode".

E Dorian (2nd mode of D major)

E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D, E

I have really come to accept that with music, there are no "rules". You can do anything you want. Of course, everyone will have their own opinion about how it sounds. I listen to a lot of music that might be considered "out there". I like it. It's not right or wrong, just different.

Peace & Music,
Joe

Huh? a min7 chord will be formed as a tertian harmony over any scale that has the intervals [1,b3,5,b7] or any scale that has the enharmonics of those intervals. I don't know how it would be assumed that it must be dorian. Even in diatonic context the first scale you would assume it to originate from, all things being equal, would be aeolian since it is the implied to be the tonal centre for a minor "key". Even at that I think it would be making a big assumption just to think aeolian every time you hear a min7 chord.

remember when it was - for minor and ^ well triangle for major!!!

From my point of view, Jayarroz wrote out what most would typically called the Em7 scale. Yes, it's a chord name, but it can also be a scale, and people who don't know the Greek modes use the chord names instead.

I don't think it's ever advisable to write the E as a small e, but most people would understand you either way. Personally, I never write Emin7 - takes too long.

I think you are confusing e minor and emin7, there might be some confusion between a tertian triad, but the 7 clearly indicates a tertian tetrad. Now unless you want to make the argument that 4 notes forms a scale, there is a great deal of difference.

Without context, I tend to see a m7 chord as "two" or the "dorian mode".

E Dorian (2nd mode of D major)

E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D, E

I have really come to accept that with music, there are no "rules". You can do anything you want. Of course, everyone will have their own opinion about how it sounds. I listen to a lot of music that might be considered "out there". I like it. It's not right or wrong, just different.

Peace & Music,
Joe

It's not a dorian mode at all. The ii7 chord is a chord built with notes from the major scale. I understand that you want to find parallels, but let me simplify it for you. A major scale is not an Ionian mode. They are by sheer coincidence enharmonic with one another. It's best not to associate one system with another.

My the way, the "rule" to analysis of music is whichever is most logical and least confusing is probably right. Confusing two different systems of music isn't logical and because you're forcing yourself to ignore the "modal formula" of the church modes, you're definitely making it confusing.

can anyone help me out with this? thanks!Not definitively. There is an assortment of scales that include the minor 7th chord intervallic relationships. All are correct within the right context.

From my point of view, Jayarroz wrote out what most would typically called the Em7 scale. Yes, it's a chord name, but it can also be a scale, and people who don't know the Greek modes use the chord names instead.

I don't think it's ever advisable to write the E as a small e, but most people would understand you either way. Personally, I never write Emin7 - takes too long.

Also, what you are saying here about writing a chord as emin7 being inadvisable is debatable. em7 is fairly easy to understand, the lower case e reaffirms that the triad is minor, although there could still be confusion over whether the m is lower or upper case. emin7 has no ambiguity at all, and removing ambiguity is what is important when writing chord symbols on charts. On the other hand Em7 looks like E major with a minor 7 which would be a dominant. Anyone that understands roman numerals for chords will see the upper case E as representing a major triad.

Hmmm. I have no idea what the conventions about this are, just that when someone says Em scale, they typically mean E to E, with a flatted iii. So, when someone says Em7 scale, I just think they mean replace Eb with D. Still has 8 notes. This may not be proper, but that's what I would take it to mean if someone said it to me (and people do). My jazz piano teacher used the term that way (this was awhile back, though - and I have no proof that he was using proper terms, but he did teach a bunch of people).

But I see what you're saying. OTOH, if you can have a pentatonic blues scale, you could, I suppose have a tetratonic scale? My point though, is that it is doubtful that that was what was meant.

The way I see it, if a song is written in Em7, it doesn't use an Eb, it uses a D and that's what I need to keep in mind to keep from sounding sucky. No different than if someone said E7. I would expect the other chords in the song to avoid things like Ebmaj7 or Eb, etc.

Anyway, it's not uncommon for some to say their song is in Em7 (emin7) in an effort to communicate the notes that Jayarroz listed. When people are learning to improvise solos on sax or whatever, they're often taught that kind of terminology, and to use those notes while everyone else plays parts of Em7 and the bass walks 1, 3b, 4, 5, 7b). I think that's called the relative minor pentatonic scale, but frankly, I don't know anyone who uses those terms (except here on this board).

It may not be properly a scale, but if someone says Em7 scale, that's what I'd think they meant.

Also, what you are saying here about writing a chord as emin7 being inadvisable is debatable. em7 is fairly easy to understand, the lower case e reaffirms that the triad is minor, although there could still be confusion over whether the m is lower or upper case. emin7 has no ambiguity at all, and removing ambiguity is what is important when writing chord symbols on charts. On the other hand Em7 looks like E major with a minor 7 which would be a dominant. Anyone that understands roman numerals for chords will see the upper case E as representing a major triad.

That's cool with me. I'll switch when I post here and appreciate the heads-up and the reasoning, thanks.

Huh? a min7 chord will be formed as a tertian harmony over any scale that has the intervals [1,b3,5,b7] or any scale that has the enharmonics of those intervals. I don't know how it would be assumed that it must be dorian. Even in diatonic context the first scale you would assume it to originate from, all things being equal, would be aeolian since it is the implied to be the tonal centre for a minor "key". Even at that I think it would be making a big assumption just to think aeolian every time you hear a min7 chord.

Sorry if I confused things.

When I see a m7 chord in a jazz chart, it's usually part of a "two five" progression (of course there are many exceptions). I've used it as a simple way to find tonal centers. Functional harmony. Of course it depends on the context, but I was just trying to keep it simple.

I don't think you can look at a single chord like Em7 and know exactly how to analyze its function without context. Again, functional harmony. I was just offering my thought on what it might be.

Also, a tune that came to mind was "So What". Dm7 (Dorian) --> Em7 (Dorian).

See where I'm coming from? I'm not asking you to agree, but you can see what I'm saying, right?

Peace and Music,
Joe

Hmmm. I have no idea what the conventions about this are, just that when someone says Em scale, they typically mean E to E, with a flatted iii. So, when someone says Em7 scale, I just think they mean replace Eb with D. Still has 8 notes. This may not be proper, but that's what I would take it to mean if someone said it to me (and people do). My jazz piano teacher used the term that way (this was awhile back, though - and I have no proof that he was using proper terms, but he did teach a bunch of people).

But I see what you're saying. OTOH, if you can have a pentatonic blues scale, you could, I suppose have a tetratonic scale? My point though, is that it is doubtful that that was what was meant.

The way I see it, if a song is written in Em7, it doesn't use an Eb, it uses a D and that's what I need to keep in mind to keep from sounding sucky. No different than if someone said E7. I would expect the other chords in the song to avoid things like Ebmaj7 or Eb, etc.

Anyway, it's not uncommon for some to say their song is in Em7 (emin7) in an effort to communicate the notes that Jayarroz listed. When people are learning to improvise solos on sax or whatever, they're often taught that kind of terminology, and to use those notes while everyone else plays parts of Em7 and the bass walks 1, 3b, 4, 5, 7b). I think that's called the relative minor pentatonic scale, but frankly, I don't know anyone who uses those terms (except here on this board).

It may not be properly a scale, but if someone says Em7 scale, that's what I'd think they meant.

I think there are a few misconceptions that I should point out here, mainly for the benefit of those that might be confused by what you are saying. Firstly E minor is a seven tone scale. The octave is not an 8th tone. The octave is played when practising scales as a way of expressing the interval between the 7th and the tonic.

Secondly the natural minor scale has the degrees [1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7], in C this would be [C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb], the scale with the spelling [1,2,b3,4,5,6,7] would represent the melodic minor scale, which is a minor scale but has a completely different context to the natural minor, which is what were refer to as "the minor" scale by default in a diatonic context. The reasons behind which minor is which have to do with harmonic function and voice leading considerations, but aeolian or the natural minor is what you would default to if you were told to play in a minor key.

The blues scale is actually a hexatonic scale with the degrees [1,b3,4,b5,5,b7] (enharmonic equivalents). It is basically a minor pentatonic with a tritone added. You wouldn't call it a pentatonic intrinsically.

Em7 is a chord, not a scale, and a badly written and misleading chord at that. There is really no way around that. Both the harmonic minor and melodic minor scales have natural 7ths but are still minor. I would think it is pretty uncommon if someone told me to play in the "key" of Em7, basically I would think they were confused or were trying to confuse me, which is essentially bad communication.

Also when you say the 3rd of a scale is flat if you are using Roman numerals you are implying the chord type. If for example you say "the iii of the scale is flat" the use of lower case numerals tells me that it is a minor triad. if you are telling me that based on a minor "key" that there is a iii attached you have told me a lot more about the scale than you are probably intending to and in fact you are giving me conflicting information. A minor scale has a minor triad attached. If you tell me that there is a iii chord which is flat, it should be written as biii. Furthermore a biii will imply a relative b5 to the tonal centre which will make your tonal centre based on a diminished triad, so either this would have to be seen as an alteration or you are giving the wrong information.

Sorry to nitpick, but I think it is important to be clear about what is being said when giving people advice.

Sorry if I confused things.

When I see a m7 chord in a jazz chart, it's usually part of a "two five" progression (of course there are many exceptions). I've used it as a simple way to find tonal centers. Functional harmony. Of course it depends on the context, but I was just trying to keep it simple.

I don't think you can look at a single chord like Em7 and know exactly how to analyze its function without context. Again, functional harmony. I was just offering my thought on what it might be.

Also, a tune that came to mind was "So What". Dm7 (Dorian) --> Em7 (Dorian).

See where I'm coming from? I'm not asking you to agree, but you can see what I'm saying, right?

Peace and Music,
Joe

I can see what you are saying, and all things being equal, you could contextualise the chord emin7 to which ever scale you think fits best. I think in the interest of keeping things simple though it should be understood that what one chord on its own implies is very ambiguous.

Also, what you are saying here about writing a chord as emin7 being inadvisable is debatable. em7 is fairly easy to understand, the lower case e reaffirms that the triad is minor, although there could still be confusion over whether the m is lower or upper case. emin7 has no ambiguity at all, and removing ambiguity is what is important when writing chord symbols on charts. On the other hand Em7 looks like E major with a minor 7 which would be a dominant. Anyone that understands roman numerals for chords will see the upper case E as representing a major triad.

I'm not sure why you're going to such lengths to say that "Em7" could be a dominant chord. I don't know anyone that would understand it that way.

I absolutely understand what you're saying. Upper case E = Major triad. "m7" = a minor 7 above the E. The chord by this system would be E G# B D (E dominant). Again, I don't know anyone that would read it that way.

It sounds kind of like a system I may have used back in college when analyzing Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner... However, I used upper and lower case roman numerals instead of letters.

Do you ever read jazz charts? What chord do you play when you see Em7? If I consistently played E dominant 7 chords when I saw "Em7", I'm pretty sure another bass player would be hired for the next gig. Heck, they might not even let me play the next set.

Peace,
Joe

[quick edit]

When I made reference to "So What", I should have said Dm7 --> Ebm7.

My bad.

I'm not sure why you're going to such lengths to say that "Em7" could be a dominant chord. I don't know anyone that would understand it that way.

I absolutely understand what you're saying. Upper case E = Major triad. "m7" = a minor 7 above the E. The chord by this system would be E G# B D (E dominant). Again, I don't know anyone that would read it that way.

It sounds kind of like a system I may have used back in college when analyzing Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner... However, I used upper and lower case roman numerals instead of letters.

Do you ever read jazz charts? What chord do you play when you see Em7? If I consistently played E dominant 7 chords when I saw "Em7", I'm pretty sure another bass player would be hired for the next gig. Heck, they might not even let me play the next set.

Peace,
Joe

Well, that isn't the point though. Em7 isn't really a good way to write that chord at any rate. It's not that you don't know or I don't know anyone that would, but the fact is that it could be read that way. I think when it comes down to it you have to look at systems that are less ambiguous. emin7 is hard to confuse with anything else, while Em7 and even em7 could be mistaken for something else. I would think that's a hard point to argue.

By the way, if it was me reading that stuff on a chart I would get my pen out and rewrite the chords once I confirmed what they represented with the author. If I lost the gig for making their badly written charts more legible, I would know they probably weren't the most professional people anyway.

By the way, if it was me reading that stuff on a chart I would get my pen out and rewrite the chords once I confirmed what they represented with the author. If I lost the gig for making their badly written charts more legible, I would know they probably weren't the most professional people anyway.

Is that because it would only take you a couple of hours to learn or because you didn't think you needed to bother with all 17?

This is kind of dumb argument to have. Asking "What can I play over Em7" is like saying "What sentences can I make with the word 'The'?". You don't have enough information. What is the chord immediately before and immediately after? What is the melody? What did you have for lunch?

For the record, Em7 is perfectly clear. Using lower case (emin7) isn't advocated in guitar chord symbols because 1)it's hard to read on a dark stage with those little stand lights and 2) a crappy copiest might make it look like cmin7. Lower case for Roman numeral analysis is standardized.

Well, that isn't the point though. Em7 isn't really a good way to write that chord at any rate. It's not that you don't know or I don't know anyone that would, but the fact is that it could be read that way. I think when it comes down to it you have to look at systems that are less ambiguous. emin7 is hard to confuse with anything else, while Em7 and even em7 could be mistaken for something else. I would think that's a hard point to argue.

By the way, if it was me reading that stuff on a chart I would get my pen out and rewrite the chords once I confirmed what they represented with the author. If I lost the gig for making their badly written charts more legible, I would know they probably weren't the most professional people anyway.

I'm not trying to argue your point. I understand where you're coming from and appreciate your reasoning. No biggie. Thanks for offering your perspective.

Peace,
Joe

I think there are a few misconceptions that I should point out here, mainly for the benefit of those that might be confused by what you are saying. Firstly E minor is a seven tone scale. The octave is not an 8th tone. The octave is played when practising scales as a way of expressing the interval between the 7th and the tonic.

I do realize that, but I was trying to simplify. And, in what peole call a 7th scale - the natural major 7th drops to its flatted form, which is what most people think is a 7th anyway - I guess there's no way around this confusion.

, in C this would be [C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb], the scale with the spelling [1,2,b3,4,5,6,7] would represent the melodic minor scale, which is a minor scale but has a completely different context to the natural minor, which is what were refer to as "the minor" scale by default in a diatonic context. The reasons behind which minor is which have to do with harmonic function and voice leading considerations, but aeolian or the natural minor is what you would default to if you were told to play in a minor key.

The blues scale is actually a hexatonic scale with the degrees [1,b3,4,b5,5,b7] (enharmonic equivalents). It is basically a minor pentatonic with a tritone added. You wouldn't call it a pentatonic intrinsically.


I don't know what "intrinsically" means in this context (or any context, now that I think about it) but I understand why you're saying that. To call the blues pentatonic scale a hexatonic scale, however, will confuse most musicians I know, and that's all I have to go by.



Em7 is a chord, not a scale, and a badly written and misleading chord at that. There is really no way around that. Both the harmonic minor and melodic minor scales have natural 7ths but are still minor. I would think it is pretty uncommon if someone told me to play in the "key" of Em7, basically I would think they were confused or were trying to confuse me, which is essentially bad communication.


Yes, I understand that. But, I live and work in a world of "bad communication," musically speaking (especially since I left the academic environment). So, my approach is very much tempered by trying to understand what very talented musicians are trying to say to each other and why. You are absolutely right of course. I was just trying to help the OP understand what someone (perhaps someone who was going to work with him or hire him) might have meant.

I really, really appreciate you trying to educate me, though, as I really want to know, even if no one in my immediate musical environment speaks the right lingo.



Also when you say the 3rd of a scale is flat if you are using Roman numerals you are implying the chord type. If for example you say "the iii of the scale is flat" the use of lower case numerals tells me that it is a minor triad. if you are telling me that based on a minor "key" that there is a iii attached you have told me a lot more about the scale than you are probably intending to and in fact you are giving me conflicting information. A minor scale has a minor triad attached. If you tell me that there is a iii chord which is flat, it should be written as biii.


Cool. I'll try to be more technical next post. I was confusing things and being inaccurate - I'll use the Arabic numerals next time.

Furthermore a biii will imply a relative b5 to the tonal centre which will make your tonal centre based on a diminished triad, so either this would have to be seen as an alteration or you are giving the wrong information.

Sorry to nitpick, but I think it is important to be clear about what is being said when giving people advice.

Absolutely. I still think that what Jayarroz posted is what most people would think is meant. But that's just based on my observations of various musicians trying to communicate.

Sorry if I confused anyone, and I wasn't giving advice - just thought I'd say what I'd observed. There is no emin7 scale, but people still use the term anyway.

I think that what most mean is the pentatonic minor blues scale, actually - especially when they're speaking to a bass player. I should have said that initially.

But the horrific confusion over the meaning of the 7th makes me glad that I don't have to figure it out myself. Me - I just ask for a listen and watch where the guitar player's fingers go or if possible, look at the score. And by horrific, I mean it really sounds sucky (to me) if half a band is playing a D# seventh in the key of E and the rest is playing D.

I'm in the audience way more than I'm up on stage.

Also, while I'm personally really glad for the notation/theory lesson, I don't think the OP is likely getting much from this - and would do best to go by what Jayarroz posted.

OP - please chime in.

My post is an html mess - sorry.

Is that because it would only take you a couple of hours to learn or because you didn't think you needed to bother with all 17?

This is kind of dumb argument to have. Asking "What can I play over Em7" is like saying "What sentences can I make with the word 'The'?". You don't have enough information. What is the chord immediately before and immediately after? What is the melody? What did you have for lunch?

For the record, Em7 is perfectly clear. Using lower case (emin7) isn't advocated in guitar chord symbols because 1)it's hard to read on a dark stage with those little stand lights and 2) a crappy copiest might make it look like cmin7. Lower case for Roman numeral analysis is standardized.

You just like to argue don't you? You obviously didn't read the original post properly as usual. The post was not about what you can play over "Em7", it was about the scale "Em7".

No, Em7 is not perfectly clear. Almost anyone will tell you that "with those little stand lights" you could easily misinterpret the m as being either major or minor. I think if you can't tell the term EMaj7 from the term emin7, it's probably your glasses that need adjusting. Even "jazz" notation for E-7 or E∆7 is preferable to Em7 or EM7.

By the way I think the old "it only took an hour" joke has run it's course. You have failed to revive the wit of it in that last post and looks like you are trying to flog a dead horse.

I don't know what "intrinsically" means in this context (or any context, now that I think about it) but I understand why you're saying that. To call the blues pentatonic scale a hexatonic scale, however, will confuse most musicians I know, and that's all I have to go by.


I use the word intrinsically because, intrinsically a pentatonic is a 5 tone scale. Also pentatonic is not confined to meaning major and minor pentatonic. Any scale consisting of 5 tones is considered a pentatonic. That would be 5 tones including the tonic and 4 other tones. Once again we don't count the octave as an extra tone.

I normally just call the blues scale "the blues scale" which is what it will most commonly be called. Calling it the blues pentatonic is a misnomer, at least when you are referring to a scale with the degrees [1,b3,4,b5,5,b7]. The fact is that it is a hexatonic, because it has 6 tones. I wouldn't call it the blues hexatonic though.

Also I would say that if the OP isn't getting much out of what I say then they should probably pay attention to DocBop, if anyone.

By the way, if it was me reading that stuff on a chart I would get my pen out and rewrite the chords once I confirmed what they represented with the author.

What does that look like on your chart?

C (C E G) F ( F A C) G7 (G B D F) Em7 (emin7 E G B D)

Never mark up a part with a pen. On a rental book they charge dearly for that. But, I guess if you are a superior musician you are allowed to permanently deface it with your improvements.

What does that look like on your chart?

C (C E G) F ( F A C) G7 (G B D F) Em7 (emin7 E G B D)

Never mark up a part with a pen. On a rental book they charge dearly for that. But, I guess if you are a superior musician you are allowed to permanently deface it with your improvements.

Are you feeling ok?

Yes good advice though, don't mark charts that aren't yours to mark, obviously. Then again I would have thought it was obvious that that wasn't what I was talking about.

Are you feeling ok?

Yes good advice though, don't mark charts that aren't yours to mark, obviously. Then again I would have thought it was obvious that that wasn't what I was talking about.

Just like it is obvious that the OP is saying Em7, what scale can I play over this.

Based on the frequency if this very question we can all jump to the logical conclusion that this is exactly what the OP is asking for.

Just like it is obvious that the OP is saying Em7, what scale can I play over this.

Based on the frequency if this very question we can all jump to the logical conclusion that this is exactly what the OP is asking for.

You see, unlike you, and this is the obvious bit here, I don't make assumptions based on limited information. Also I was responding to someone else that posted on the thread that did go into Em7 as meaning a scale.

I will give it to you though, you are fantastic at jumping to conclusions. Just like the conclusion you jumped to with your "no one ever got fired for playing the root note" comment.

Really the way I see it, your big shortcoming here is that you assume that people need to be told what is right and what is wrong based on what you assume they need to do. You fail to realise that people are intelligent enough to be able to make their own decisions once they have their options explained to them.

Also, what you are saying here about writing a chord as emin7 being inadvisable is debatable. em7 is fairly easy to understand, the lower case e reaffirms that the triad is minor, although there could still be confusion over whether the m is lower or upper case. emin7 has no ambiguity at all, and removing ambiguity is what is important when writing chord symbols on charts. On the other hand Em7 looks like E major with a minor 7 which would be a dominant. Anyone that understands roman numerals for chords will see the upper case E as representing a major triad.

Actually, minor always refers to the 3rd in a chord symbol. Upper case or lower case an "m" or "Min" always refers to the 3rd of the chord. "Major" or "M" in a chord symbol always refers to the 7th when left without another number (e.g. maj9). There's nothing confusing about Em7 - because E major with a minor 7th would be E7, as you said.

Actually, minor always refers to the 3rd in a chord symbol. Upper case or lower case an "m" or "Min" always refers to the 3rd of the chord. "Major" or "M" in a chord symbol always refers to the 7th when left without another number (e.g. maj9). There's nothing confusing about Em7 - because E major with a minor 7th would be E7, as you said.

Yes, but Em7 might be misread as EM7. Also if I saw IIIm7, I wouldn't take that to mean a minor triad with a minor 7th, I would see that as a redundant way of writing III7. Ok, I will give that the "jazz" notation of E-7 is acceptable, but I personally wouldn't use that notation myself.

As for the minor referring to the third, I can't say that really makes a lot of sense since a diminished triad has a minor 3rd as well. For your statement to be true, then we must assume that a triad [1,b3,b5] is minor.

Yes, but Em7 might be misread as EM7. Also if I saw IIIm7, I wouldn't take that to mean a minor triad with a minor 7th, I would see that as a redundant way of writing III7. Ok, I will give that the "jazz" notation of E-7 is acceptable, but I personally wouldn't use that notation myself.



I've seen EM7 misread as Em7, but never the reverse. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never seen it and I've been playing professionally for well over 20 years. I'm not talking roman numerals, either. Again, I've seen Nashville Numbers alot, but never roman numerals on a gig....



As for the minor referring to the third, I can't say that really makes a lot of sense since a diminished triad has a minor 3rd as well. For your statement to be true, then we must assume that a triad [1,b3,b5] is minor.

No, you're putting words in my mouth. When "minor" appears in the chord symbol, it's always referring to the 3rd. That's not saying something else can refer to it (dim obviously refers to the diminished triad). But when minor is in the chord, it's talking about the 3rd. Always.

I've seen EM7 misread as Em7, but never the reverse. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never seen it and I've been playing professionally for well over 20 years. I'm not talking roman numerals, either. Again, I've seen Nashville Numbers alot, but never roman numerals on a gig....

That may be but that is my rationale with the Roman numerals. I think with the Em7 as a symbol, at the end of the day there is ambiguity or a chance to misread something. That is really my point. I think the bottom line is, it is less likely to misread Maj7 as min7, unless it is particularly badly written, than any of the other arguments put forward.



No, you're putting words in my mouth. When "minor" appears in the chord symbol, it's always referring to the 3rd. That's not saying something else can refer to it (dim obviously refers to the diminished triad). But when minor is in the chord, it's talking about the 3rd. Always.
With regard to that argument I will concede that yes it does as a matter of redundancy occur that when you see the term minor it will mean that the third is affected. I think this is different to it referring to the third, though.

When I say "as a matter of redundancy" I am talking about the fact that the chord symbol "emin7" is actually shorthand for eminor/minor7. In this case the minor refers to the 7th as well. So I would argue that all things being equal the term minor must be referring to the triad first and the 7th second.

I think the case for a diminished chord really reiterates this point because if the term diminished refers to the function of both the 3rd and 5th, then it would follow that the term minor refers to the function of both too. It would also follow that an augmented triad refers to the function of the 5th being affected, but this in turn does not mean it is referring to the 5th only.

With regard to that argument I will concede that yes it does as a matter of redundancy occur that when you see the term minor it will mean that the third is affected. I think this is different to it referring to the third, though.

When I say "as a matter of redundancy" I am talking about the fact that the chord symbol "emin7" is actually shorthand for eminor/minor7. In this case the minor refers to the 7th as well. So I would argue that all things being equal the term minor must be referring to the triad first and the 7th second.



What in the world is a minor/minor 7th??? It's a minor 7 chord. For clarity, unless it says "major" in the chord symbol, the 7th is a minor 7. It's automatic. So in the example, minor refers to the 3rd, 7 refers the minor 7.



I think the case for a diminished chord really reiterates this point because if the term diminished refers to the function of both the 3rd and 5th, then it would follow that the term minor refers to the function of both too. It would also follow that an augmented triad refers to the function of the 5th being affected, but this in turn does not mean it is referring to the 5th only.


Really? What else would it refer to? xAug7 - the aug is only referring to the 5th. xAug9 - same thing.

Think about all the chord symbols you've seen. Can you tell me one that you've seen that will refute what I've said? Minor always refers to the function of the 3rd. You'll see this specifically in the minor/major7 chord. You've never seen a major/minor chord symbol have you? (that's because all you'd have to write would be x7)

I have already written on this but it just keeps going! I think Em7 is something I have seen more commonly as a guitar chord E G B D. Put whatever flavor you want on it! But get back to practicing guys:D

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory17.htm

In particular read part 3 of "seventh chords", "Naming 7th chords".

Fair enough, man. That's a bunch of new ones on me.


Now, how many of those have you seen on an electric bass gig? "F diminished minor"? These are NOT accepted chord symbols....

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory17.htm

In particular read part 3 of "seventh chords", "Naming 7th chords".


Look at ANY other accepted text. Try the Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levin, or any college text....

I'll tell you this - you won't find "minor minor" or "Diminished major" on the bandstand.....

Fair enough, man. That's a bunch of new ones on me.


Now, how many of those have you seen on an electric bass gig? "F diminished minor"? These are NOT accepted chord symbols....

The point I am making is that 7th chords are named based on the triad and the 7th. What you are saying is correct to a degree though. Yes the third will change in a minor, the fifth will change in an augmented. It's just that what you are talking about is incidental rather than causal.

You won't see long hand at all that I can think of, but what I think is important is understanding how those chords are adapted from longhand, and how it affects how you might read something that, to me, comes across as ambiguous when put into perspective.

Look at ANY other accepted text. Try the Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levin, or any college text....

I'll tell you this - you won't find "minor minor" or "Diminished major" on the bandstand.....

That's the classical terminology for seventh chords. You won't see it on the bandstand, but you might see it in your occasional college music theory textbook. They're just archaic terms that are nice to know only to avoid confusion.

You won't see long hand at all that I can think of, but what I think is important is understanding how those chords are adapted from longhand, and how it affects how you might read something that, to me, comes across as ambiguous when put into perspective.

Right, but most people who are playing tunes and reading chord symbols don't come from the classical music background and therefore have a completely different frame of reference. Its always important to look back on the history of what you're talking about, yes, but the average layman won't come with the baggage.

Right, but most people who are playing tunes and reading chord symbols don't come from the classical music background and therefore have a completely different frame of reference. Its always important to look back on the history of what you're talking about, yes, but the average layman won't come with the baggage.

Even at that though, and this is the point, what we are talking about is disambiguation and clarity. I don't think it can be argued, then again I have been known to be wrong there, that the least ambiguous, contemporary way to write [E G B D] as a chord is emin7, rather than Em7. Right? Even Emin7 would be preferable.

Err no.... Mixolydian has a major 3rd not a minor 3rd so one of the two main chord quality notes is wrong.

Simple answer to OP question is any scale with a flat 3rd and flat 7th. Now they all have different color tones. The a better answer you need to know how the Emi7 is functioning such as....

i in minor (aeolian)
II in major (dorian)
III in major (Phrygian)
iv in minor
vi in major (locrian)

Could be a chord sub such as iii or vi for a I major chord. Those are a few ways it may be functioning.


I meant that those two modes can cover a pretty broad spectrum is all. It was kind of un-related to the OP, sorry.

Even at that though, and this is the point, what we are talking about is disambiguation and clarity. I don't think it can be argued, then again I have been known to be wrong there, that the least ambiguous, contemporary way to write [E G B D] as a chord is emin7, rather than Em7. Right? Even Emin7 would be preferable.

Comment deleted by mod

Hackneyed web references that cite other sources as "Interesting Chords for Pianists"? Ima7 IIm7 IIIm7? Power chords listed alongside augmented 6ths? Is there where you get your musical "education"?

F7 would be pronounced "Eff seven" in any music theory class, guitar chord book or band stand. None of this "major-minor seven" business.

You are so full of crap!

Hackneyed web references that site other sources as "Interesting Chords for Pianists"? Ima7 IIm7 IIIm7? Power chords listed alongside augmented 6ths? Is there where you get your musical "education"?

F7 would be pronounced "Eff seven" in any music theory class, guitar chord book or band stand. None of this "major-minor seven" business.

Just go back to your root notes now Miles.

Even at that though, and this is the point, what we are talking about is disambiguation and clarity. I don't think it can be argued, then again I have been known to be wrong there, that the least ambiguous, contemporary way to write [E G B D] as a chord is emin7, rather than Em7. Right? Even Emin7 would be preferable.

I don't think the root in lower case or upper case matters. In many fonts, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference in a reading situation - one of the reasons I hate the m/M difference between minor and major in chord symbols. If I see Em7, I know what it means in a millisecond. EM7 I may screw the pooch and play minor until my ears tell me something's wrong.

Number charts? IIIm7 and iiim7? Won't matter - you don't see those in number charts. You see 3m7.


But that's not the topic of this thread....

Huh? a min7 chord will be formed as a tertian harmony over any scale that has the intervals [1,b3,5,b7] or any scale that has the enharmonics of those intervals. I don't know how it would be assumed that it must be dorian.



I don't believe he said "must be dorian". He said, without context, he sees min7 chords as a "ii" or dorian function. In most contemporary music, that's a fine call, and I think most jazz/contemporary musicians would make it as well.


Even in diatonic context the first scale you would assume it to originate from, all things being equal, would be aeolian since it is the implied to be the tonal centre for a minor "key". Even at that I think it would be making a big assumption just to think aeolian every time you hear a min7 chord.

In the music that most of us play here (given that we're discussing this on the BG side of talkbass), min7 chords more often than not function as a ii. In fact, even when they're the tonic of a minor key, dorian is the preferred much of the time.

There's nothing confusing about Em7 - because E major with a minor 7th would be E7.

Agreed. At some point each musician dealing with lead sheets has to realize that the system of nomenclature for chords symbols is not standardized, and isn't likely to be anytime soon; there are too many books out there from too many sources, and most "speak" chord symbol in their own particular dialect. It should be the responsibility of the professional musician to be able to converse in these dialects even if we would prefer to converse in our native accents.

It's all well and good to argue about whether "mi7b5" or "Ø" is the correct way to notate a ii chord in minor, but the truth is that any professional musician should not be thrown by either, and should know what is meant. heck, the changes themselves are almost always different from source to source, and it doesn't mean you have to relearn the tune. I'll attempt to attach an example I use in some of my classes about the differences in changes and nomenclature on the same tune from different sources.

http://chrisfitzgeraldmusic.com/gallery/seepicture.asp?ID=46

http://www.studybass.com/tools/chord-scale-note-printer/

;)

D.Don

The sites creator is my instructor. :D

Agreed. At some point each musician dealing with lead sheets has to realize that the system of nomenclature for chords symbols is not standardized, and isn't likely to be anytime soon; there are too many books out there from too many sources, and most "speak" chord symbol in their own particular dialect. It should be the responsibility of the professional musician to be able to converse in these dialects even if we would prefer to converse in our native accents.

It's all well and good to argue about whether "mi7b5" or "Ø" is the correct way to notate a ii chord in minor, but the truth is that any professional musician should not be thrown by either, and should know what is meant. heck, the changes themselves are almost always different from source to source, and it doesn't mean you have to relearn the tune. I'll attempt to attach an example I use in some of my classes about the differences in changes and nomenclature on the same tune from different sources.


That's all true. But it doesn't stop me from having the opinion that it's a poor way to write it. Nor does it stop me from analytically critiquing the concept of chord nomenclature. Should it?

That's all true. But it doesn't stop me from having the opinion that it's a poor way to write it. Nor does it stop me from analytically critiquing the concept of chord nomenclature. Should it?


Sure, if you like getting worked up about nothing.

I tell my troops all the time: you can complain about what "should" be, or you can deal with what "is".

This is one of those times.

when will this thread end....... Em7 It's a guitar chord:spit:

Really? Why are we having so much trouble with a simple Em7 scale?

Its just E major, with a minor 7.

So E F# G# A B C# D E

hmmm that seems to be the issue, everyone see's it different. I don't see Em7 as a Major Minor chord at all, but this has been argued through out the whole thread!

That's all true. But it doesn't stop me from having the opinion that it's a poor way to write it. Nor does it stop me from analytically critiquing the concept of chord nomenclature. Should it?

Stop you? No. But if you critique in such a manner as to say things like, I don't think it can be argued, then again I have been known to be wrong there, that the least ambiguous, contemporary way to write [E G B D] as a chord is emin7, rather than Em7. Right? Even Emin7 would be preferable.", you're going to have to deal with people who feel that, in fact, it sure can be argued that the best way notate that chord is by using a symbol many people have never seen on a lead sheet.

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory17.htm

In particular read part 3 of "seventh chords", "Naming 7th chords".

An online theory primer. What is this supposed to prove? That one easy way to teach novice students what seventh chords are is by detailing what kind of triad it is and what kind of seventh is added? So stipulated. But as far as this discussion, that point is made completely irrelevant by the fact that chord symbols are shorthand shortcuts meant to be easily read on the fly. Suppose they were driving instructions that you had to read to get where you were going. Would you rather read, "rotate the steering apparatus sharply in a clockwise motion", or "turn right"? Once people know how to turn the wheel, all they need to know is where and when to do it.


On the other hand Em7 looks like E major with a minor 7 which would be a dominant. Anyone that understands roman numerals for chords will see the upper case E as representing a major triad.

I play with a lot of trained and degreed musicians, and none seem to have any trouble confusing Em7 with E7. I have never heard of anyone being confused about this until just now.

Really?

Its just E major, with a minor 7.

So E F# G# A B C# D E

.......

Why are we having so much trouble with a simple Em7 scale?


Excellent question.

Em7? Thats it? 4 pages?

I have nothing to offer but... thanks? Nice job TB!

On the other hand Em7 looks like E major with a minor 7 which would be a dominant. Anyone that understands roman numerals for chords will see the upper case E as representing a major triad.

I think debate over chord chart notation has moved somewhat beyond the original question. Seeing as how the inquiry was what scale should go with an E minor 7 chord, I doubt the Greek mode or notation makes much difference.

I would always advise understanding the chord in the context of the key. If you have an Em7 with a G, D, and C somewhere mixed in, you're in the key of G and you should play natural minor...it's just a matter of knowing plain old practical musical theory. Circle of fifths stuff should come first.

Oh woops...four pages of replies slipped past me there.

I guess discussion on modes and theory crap appeals to bass players because we're the only one in the band, heck even around, who knows everything about it. Clearly. haha.

Sure, if you like getting worked up about nothing.

I tell my troops all the time: you can complain about what "should" be, or you can deal with what "is".

This is one of those times.

I don't know I think I made a pretty good case for what is, when you were arguing the opposite. It's not about what I think should be at any rate, it's about the fact that I think Em7 is a poor way to write that chord, I am pretty sure I'm not the only one.

I think debate over chord chart notation has moved somewhat beyond the original question. Seeing as how the inquiry was what scale should go with an E minor 7 chord, I doubt the Greek mode or notation makes much difference.

I would always advise understanding the chord in the context of the key. If you have an Em7 with a G, D, and C somewhere mixed in, you're in the key of G and you should play natural minor...it's just a matter of knowing plain old practical musical theory. Circle of fifths stuff should come first.

Well, to be honest, it was never meant to be a debate about what the best way to write a chord is. I was just giving my opinion that I think that's a poor way to write the chord. I went on to make an analytical argument where I was trying to cover as many considerations as possible about how and why chord symbols are written.

An online theory primer. What is this supposed to prove? That one easy way to teach novice students what seventh chords are is by detailing what kind of triad it is and what kind of seventh is added? So stipulated. But as far as this discussion, that point is made completely irrelevant by the fact that chord symbols are shorthand shortcuts meant to be easily read on the fly. Suppose they were driving instructions that you had to read to get where you were going. Would you rather read, "rotate the steering apparatus sharply in a clockwise motion", or "turn right"? Once people know how to turn the wheel, all they need to know is where and when to do it.



I think if you look at the context of the debate, Pacman was making the case that the term "minor" refers to the function of the third. My case was that, as you said yourself, chord symbols are shorthand. Shorthand for what though? Shorthand for naming the function of the triad followed by the function of the 7th. Great, in the end it all gets read as emin7, or E-7 or Emi7 etc, but I believe that understanding why we make various assumptions about things that allows us to write things in shorthand, is key to actually understanding the things we see rather than just memorising things because we are told to.

.......




Excellent question.

Sarcasm?

I was always told that the m7 scale is the same as the Mixolydian scale? Major with a minor 7

Well, to be honest, it was never meant to be a debate about what the best way to write a chord is. I was just giving my opinion that I think that's a poor way to write the chord. I went on to make an analytical argument where I was trying to cover as many considerations as possible about how and why chord symbols are written.

Haha it's all good man. It's just funny where discussions end up, right?

I guess I've been reading/writing chord sheets for a long time. As long as everybody understands.

Sarcasm?

I was always told that the m7 scale is the same as the Mixolydian scale? Major with a minor 7

Well a minor 7 chord has a root note, a third, a fifth, an octave, and a 7th, right? There are a couple scales that could fit in there. Mixolydian would be funky because based on an E, it has a G# and a E minor 7 has a G. Good harmony for some places...jazz anyone? haha but not for a straight up minor chord.

I always try to understand the chord in the context of the key. If it's something that's in the key of G, like G D Em7 C, I'll play a straight up minor scale. If it's something in a different key, that's where the different modes would come in. Like "Breathe" is a big jam on Em7 and A (dominant) 7. That's where I'd throw in a C#. No flat 6 because you're playing in a different key, D.

Well a minor 7 chord has a root note, a third, a fifth, an octave, and a 7th, right? There are a couple scales that could fit in there. Mixolydian would be funky because based on an E, it has a G# and a E minor 7 has a G. Good harmony for some places...jazz anyone? haha but not for a straight up minor chord.

I always try to understand the chord in the context of the key. If it's something that's in the key of G, like G D Em7 C, I'll play a straight up minor scale. If it's something in a different key, that's where the different modes would come in. Like "Breathe" is a big jam on Em7 and A (dominant) 7. That's where I'd throw in a C#. No flat 6 because you're playing in a different key, D.

Well now Im really confused. So are we playing a straight up minor chord? Then whats the point of sayin m7? Isnt it assumed that the 7 is minor? Unless its harmonic minor?

Well the scale depends on the key is all I mean.

One chord is not enough information. That's all I should have said.

The seven is by itself I think. It's Em add 7 = Em7, so the chord and not the interval is minor.

Well the scale depends on the key is all I mean.

One chord is not enough information. That's all I should have said.

The seven is by itself I think. It's Em add 7 = Em7, so the chord and not the interval is minor.

I guess what Im trying to say is isnt it just extra work to say Em7 scale? Isnt it like saying Em b3? Which I heard someone say before btw. But cant you just say Em scale and be saying the same thing?

This discussion has gone on a lot longer than I thought it would. :)

As far as the chord notation goes, I've always been happy with...

EG#BD = E7
EG#BD# = Emaj7
EGBD = Em7 or Emin7

Works for me. ;)

As for the "Em7 scale" - well, I presume the OP meant "what scale contains notes that might work well during the section of a sequence where someone has indicated that the chord is Em7?" Or something like that. And the answer, as several people have said, is "That depends on the context and personal preferences". But you could try playing around with pentatonic minor or with Aeolian, Dorian and Phrygian modes just to get some ideas.

I also like the answer that DocBop gave in another current thread - you only need to learn one scale, and that's chromatic. Then you just need to learn which notes to leave out when. That's actually pretty good advice. :D