I read standard music notations on staves pretty well. Chord notation, OTOH, is pretty new to me.

When I first came here, I was using abbreviations like Bm7 (which appear in all my jazz charts), but was told/asked that the proper/better notation is Bmin7 ( to avoid confusion of some kind, which I think I understand). And Bmin instead of Bm, etc.

Recently, I saw someone say that notating B7b5 was preferred to say B7-5 (as is common in many of my charts). In this case, the b flats the note after it, right?

Q 1 So why are other flatted chords written Bb or Gb (B flat and G flat)? Why does the little b come after, when it modifies a letter, but before when it modifies a number? Is there a reason or is it just convention?

And, if B7-5 is a seventh with a flatted fifth, what do you call a minor with a flatted fifth that is not a seventh? For example, C-Eb-Gb/F#?

I think I know that C-Eb-Gb-Bb is dim or Dim or [degree sign] but I also think people do it Cm(b5), right? Any other ways of noting this one?

1. Convention

2. I've always called a minor with a flatted 5th a diminished chord.

Also, Bm7 is as correct as Bmin7. I have also seen it written as B-7.

Thanks, Jimmy. So Cdim is C Eb Gb (C)...in other words, based on three tones?

What would C Eb Gb Bb be, Cdim7 or something? I think that's where I'm stuck. Or C7dim?

Which leaves C Eb Gb B as something...or other...but what?

I'm too hungry to type right now, so just read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminished_chord

Sorry ;)

Thanks, Jimmy. So Cdim is C Eb Gb (C)...in other words, based on three tones?

What would C Eb Gb Bb be, Cdim7 or something? I think that's where I'm stuck. Or C7dim?

Which leaves C Eb Gb B as something...or other...but what?

Maybe you should consider a fundamentals course at Ventura or Oxnard college?

Thanks, Jimmy. So Cdim is C Eb Gb (C)...in other words, based on three tones?

What would C Eb Gb Bb be, Cdim7 or something? I think that's where I'm stuck. Or C7dim?

Which leaves C Eb Gb B as something...or other...but what?

There are two "types" of diminished 7th chords, half and whole diminished. Half diminished has the degrees {1,b3,b5,b7} and is usually notated as min7(b5) or some variation of that. Whole diminished has the degrees {1,b3,b5,bb7} (no, it is not A it is Bbb in the key of C) and is notated as dim7 or some variation of that.

The use of "b" is technically wrong, but since there is no universal code for the flat sign, we make do.

Maybe you should consider a fundamentals course at Ventura or Oxnard college?

The only ones at Oxnard are at the same time as when I work - I'd have to do night school at Ventura, which isn't really going to fit in with my energy level/current health. Though I do consider taking a performance course - the teacher is a friend and would answer my question if I emailed or went and stood outside before class.

Somehow, I thought someone here might know.

Plus, I'd have go through all the basics of learning music reading again, which isn't where I'm stuck. They do only a tiny segment on chord theory in the first semester. When I took music theory (in college - 25 years ago), they didn't spend much time on chords actually (see link below). But we did learn to transpose and score standard music notation - which took us all a lot of time. They didn't teach chords in the second quarter, either (I've got the textbook from the CSUN and the VC classes - not much on chords there either). Here's the textbook they use (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0072415703/ref=sib_dp_ptu#reader-link) (it's nearly identical to the one we used when I was in school) - one semester gets you through about Chapter Ten (although the syllabus said we'd learn through Chapter 12. Seems like a long time before they get past the 7th...and a lot of time spent just to learn something that can be asked and answered online so easily. At any rate, I was fading by the time we got to Non-Chord tones. OTOH, I did read ahead - about V, II and VII chords. But I still don't remember being taught a bunch of chords I keep encountering in jazz charts.

Indeed, I've learned way faster from these boards - and from reading Wikipedia. Oh, and of course, those charts you posted are helpful, Martin.

Thanks, Mutedeity, that went quite a ways toward clearing my confusion and I didn't have to pay tuition or drive anywhere.

Thanks, Jimmy. So Cdim is C Eb Gb (C)...in other words, based on three tones?

What would C Eb Gb Bb be, Cdim7 or something? I think that's where I'm stuck. Or C7dim?

Which leaves C Eb Gb B as something...or other...but what?

The problem with coming up with "correct" answers with something as nebulous as chord notion is that a lot of people will have different viewpoints, and since there isn't any generally accepted "source" we can turn to for the ONE answer, you just have to go by what people can understand one way or the other.

Cdim USUALLY will refer to C Eb Gb, the C diminished triad. The triad by itself isn't too common in contemporary music, however, much more common is the half-diminished seventh chord, or minor seventh flat five, and the diminished seventh chord. Half-diminished might be notated like Cø7 or Cø, or you might see C-7(b5), Cmin7(b5) or Cm7(b5). Fully diminished could be notated as Cdim7 or Co7. Mutedeity provided the correct spellings.

The chord "C Eb Gb B" is a little on the rarer side, but it would be called C diminished major 7, notated as Cdim(maj7) or Co(maj7). You aremore likely in practice to run into the chord C Eb Gb Bbb B, however. This is because diminished major 7 chords often have diminished 7 functionality, and SOUND like diminished seven chords, even though they have a bit more "flavor" with the major 7.

Question for mutedeity. In a chord where both the major seventh and the diminished seventh are voiced, such as C Eb Gb Bbb B, should the diminished seventh be spelled enharmonically to A to avoid plurality of letter names and the incredibly awkward interval of the doubly augmented unison?

On C Eb Gb and B, I don't know that I have ever seen or heard of that chord written as a diminished triad with a M7. I can't think of why it couldn't depending on the context, but I would think the most logical way to write that would probably be B(addb9)/C.

For some reason I think there would be a problem describing it as CdimMaj7, though.

BTW, it really helped to read the Wiki article about the actual porportions of the frequencies that comprise the dim7 chord (in the Wiki article Jimmy linked to) and link that to the name of the chord.

I'm getting it.

On C Eb Gb and B, I don't know that I have ever seen or heard of that chord written as a diminished triad with a M7. I can't think of why it couldn't depending on the context, but I would think the most logical way to write that would probably be B(addb9)/C.

For some reason I think there would be a problem describing it as CdimMaj7, though.

That helped too - it's this aspect (of how things are generally written) that I'm trying to understand. I've never seen any CdimMaj7 either (for some reason, just typing that is making me laugh).

And I am usually very serious.

The problem with coming up with "correct" answers with something as nebulous as chord notion is that a lot of people will have different viewpoints, and since there isn't any generally accepted "source" we can turn to for the ONE answer, you just have to go by what people can understand one way or the other.

Cdim USUALLY will refer to C Eb Gb, the C diminished triad. The triad by itself isn't too common in contemporary music, however, much more common is the half-diminished seventh chord, or minor seventh flat five, and the diminished seventh chord. Half-diminished might be notated like Cø7 or Cø, or you might see C-7(b5), Cmin7(b5) or Cm7(b5). Fully diminished could be notated as Cdim7 or Co7. Mutedeity provided the correct spellings.

The chord "C Eb Gb B" is a little on the rarer side, but it would be called C diminished major 7, notated as Cdim(maj7) or Co(maj7). You aremore likely in practice to run into the chord C Eb Gb Bbb B, however. This is because diminished major 7 chords often have diminished 7 functionality, and SOUND like diminished seven chords, even though they have a bit more "flavor" with the major 7.

Question for mutedeity. In a chord where both the major seventh and the diminished seventh are voiced, such as C Eb Gb Bbb B, should the diminished seventh be spelled enharmonically to A to avoid plurality of letter names and the incredibly awkward interval of the doubly augmented unison?

I had wondered about the frequency of the dim chord. I see C-7(b5) all the time. The parentheses really help (and of course I'm playing the chords on bass and keyboard as we go over this - it's not just about learning the letters by themselves, which is more what the college course was like - there weren't any specific instruments involved).

Question for mutedeity. In a chord where both the major seventh and the diminished seventh are voiced, such as C Eb Gb Bbb B, should the diminished seventh be spelled enharmonically to A to avoid plurality of letter names and the incredibly awkward interval of the doubly augmented unison?

I think on face value you would have to look at the function. I think it could probably be argued that the A would be acceptable because only one of those tones is going to function as a 7th and that would be the note B. Now whether we call A a 6th or a 13th is open to discussion though. I would think that describing it as a 13th would be more diatonically correct though

On C Eb Gb and B, I don't know that I have ever seen or heard of that chord written as a diminished triad with a M7. I can't think of why it couldn't depending on the context, but I would think the most logical way to write that would probably be B(addb9)/C.
LOL! I work with Carl Gardner's Coasters sometimes, and they have this MD named Curly Palmer who writes all the charts, and he actually uses that chord in "Zing Went The Strings Of My Heart." Every time we play that song we laugh because it's such an odd chord that creeps us out with its dissonance, but if you don't play that exact chord, Curly will yell at you ;)

LOL! I work with Carl Gardner's Coasters sometimes, and they have this MD named Curly Palmer who writes all the charts, and he actually uses that chord in "Zing Went The Strings Of My Heart." Every time we play that song we laugh because it's such an odd chord that creeps us out with its dissonance, but if you don't play that exact chord, Curly will yell at you ;)

I quite like that chord actually. It's a drama to voice it harmonically on bass though. Not so bad as an arpeggio though.

I think on face value you would have to look at the function. I think it could probably be argued that the A would be acceptable because only one of those tones is going to function as a 7th and that would be the note B. Now whether we call A a 6th or a 13th is open to discussion though. I would think that describing it as a 13th would be more diatonically correct though

Well, looking at the function in practice, you chiefly see this chord as a diminished function chord. Jobim tunes, rogers/hart, gershwin, all sorts of the old school tunes had diminished chords with a stressed major seventh in the voicings and melody. It's hard to hear the major seventh as the functional seventh of the voicing, because by adding and removing it nothing changes in terms of voice leading and practical functionality. I know I've never heard the diminished chord with a major 7th used in any other terms in functional harmony, and it's doubtful it's used too often in tertian non-functional harmony either.

At Berklee the major seventh on a diminished chord is taught as a TENSION or tertian extension BEYOND the 13th (you could think of it as the major 15th, although major 7 is easier to understand). It is an "acceptable tension" because it is a major 9th beyond the chord tone of the diminished 7. This is because diminished chords in contemporary practice are treated as OCTATONIC systems, which is different from our diatonic heptatonic systems. The (whole-half) diminished scale gives us 8 different notes, and they all work as tensions and chord tones. The problem of course is that we have seven letter names to choose from. So we are stuck with both the Bbb (diminished seventh) and the B (major 15th). This is obviously unacceptable, breaking academic taboos, so in practice you'd have to respell the Bbb as an A, simply because it's more practical than having Bbb and B or C and Cb.

I quite like that chord actually. It's a drama to voice it harmonically on bass though. Not so bad as an arpeggio though.

It's a good chord, man, the old school tin pan alley guys knew what they were doing with it.

That helped too - it's this aspect (of how things are generally written) that I'm trying to understand. I've never seen any CdimMaj7 either (for some reason, just typing that is making me laugh).

And I am usually very serious.

There are some other wacky chords that are actually really cool in certain circumstances. Like...

C Major 7 (#5) - great substitution for a Imaj7 chord if you want to be hip [1, 3, #5, 7]
C Major 7 (#9) - a good one to play at the end of tunes, Duke Ellington loved this one especially with the #11 a 13 in there. You can think of it as a B triad over Cmaj7 [1, 3, 5, 7, #9]
C Minor 7 (#11) - a weird one for sure, but I dig it [1, b3, 5, b7, #11]
C7sus4(10) - This one is way cool, it has a really McCoy Tyner viber to it. It's basically a seventh chord with BOTH the major 3rd and 4 in there, which is normally supposed to be bad, but when voiced with the four on the bottom and the 3 (10) on top, it sounds awesome [1, 4, 5, b7, 10]

I like the add b9 aspect of it, but the C bass note is so disconcerting. Jarring is the word when you hear it in "Zing." It's a I-VI-IV-V song, and you expect the root of the V, then WHAMMO! It's a b9 instead.

It's a good chord, man, the old school tin pan alley guys knew what they were doing with it.

Where would you say that chord resolves to?

In Zing, it resolves to an E like it's a V chord.

Well, it typically resolves chromatically, like a diminished chord does. If it doesn't resolve chromatically, its not a diminished chord by function, so I guess your interpretation could have more weight in those instances. I'm not familiar with any other tonal resolution pattern.

Tunes with the diminished seven with a major 7 include:

Bewitched
Chega de Saudade
Corcavado
Misty (Ebdim7 is a common sub for the first chord.)
Where are you
Spain (the concierto de aranjuez introduction has a nice little reharm with a Do7 with a maj7)

If you looked through all the Real Books I'm sure you'd find plenty more diminished seventh chords with major 7s stuck on them.

So I have this voicing for that chord [C,Gb,B,Eb,A] Played in that order on my 5 string EADGC. I'm leaving it open whether I think that A is a Bbb or not at the moment, I have some thoughts on the function in the context I am talking about I will elaborate on later once I have thought about it.

I can hear an interesting resolution to Emin from that chord though. The upper voice of that chord in that voicing wants to resolve to E for the obvious reasons. Now try this, play only the three lowest tones in that voicing and you have a lydian chord (1,#4,7). It seems to me that that part of the chord chord is implying C lydian which implies that E will be the relative aeolian and therefore make the minor sound more in keeping with the rest of that chord. While the upper part of the chord is acting as a dominant that gives you the feeling of resolution when you move to E.

It's a theory anyway.

I was thinking about this a bit more and have some other considerations to add. We could take that chord two ways as well. We could take it as a dim7 chord with a added M7, or we could take it as a chord based diatonically on lydian with an altered 3rd. The 3rd is made flat to act as a leading tone in the dominant chord I mentioned above. I think in my previous post the voicing I gave probably approaches the chord as being the later. That would probably mean though that the correct way to notate that would be [C,F#,B,D#,A].

I'm still not sure about the A/Bbb in the first instance though. I can see the point Havic is making about the M7 being there for tension only but I'm not completely sold on that both of those notes act as a 7th. The argument I have is that a dim7 chord is symmetrical so the d7 is there because it makes the chord ambiguous, whereas the M7 implies where the tonic is. It's really a matter of semantics though, the chord will do what it does whether you look at the note as a M6 or d7, but it's worth thinking about.

So I have this voicing for that chord [C,Gb,B,Eb,A] Played in that order on my 5 string EADGC. I'm leaving it open whether I think that A is a Bbb or not at the moment, I have some thoughts on the function in the context I am talking about I will elaborate on later once I have thought about it.

I can hear an interesting resolution to Emin from that chord though. The upper voice of that chord in that voicing wants to resolve to E for the obvious reasons. Now try this, play only the three lowest tones in that voicing and you have a lydian chord (1,#4,7). It seems to me that that part of the chord chord is implying C lydian which implies that E will be the relative aeolian and therefore make the minor sound more in keeping with the rest of that chord. While the upper part of the chord is acting as a dominant that gives you the feeling of resolution when you move to E.

It's a theory anyway.

If you rearrange the notes that way, however, its hard to hear it as a tonal structure unto itself. It could in fact be a B7(b9) voicing if you voice it high enough (in fourth inversion?!). The voice leading that you suggested would lead itself to this theory. The C goes to B, F# to G, B stays the same, Eb to E (or D if you're doing Em7) and A to G, the way that your run of the mill dominant chord resolves.

I was thinking about this a bit more and have some other considerations to add. We could take that chord two ways as well. We could take it as a dim7 chord with a added M7, or we could take it as a chord based diatonically on lydian with an altered 3rd. The 3rd is made flat to act as a leading tone in the dominant chord I mentioned above. I think in my previous post the voicing I gave probably approaches the chord as being the later. That would probably mean though that the correct way to notate that would be [C,F#,B,D#,A].

This would then just be another way of writing a dominant chord, in my view. It would sound weird with the C in the bass, though. I've never seen it used this way, but IN THEORY the voice leading works. It would have to go to 2nd inversion tonic chord, however, using the voice leading procedure I outlines above.

You could take this a completely different way, though, with the whole lydian b3 thing (if you're being all anal and specific like I know you love to be, it would be #9 in the TONAL sense), you could think of it as a very bizzare MODAL voicing reflecting several options. It could be reflective of the lydian #9 scale (mode 6 of the harmonic minor), which might have some tonal sense in the way we're using it as a pseduo-dominant functioning chord. OR it could be reflective of a diminished lydian mode, mode 4 of the harmonic major scale [1, 2, b3, #4, 5, 6, 7]. I think George Russell calls this the Auxiliary Diminished, but I may be wrong. If you're writing some modal music with that, then this whole diminished major 7 structure might have use, although it won't really be tertian.

I'm still not sure about the A/Bbb in the first instance though. I can see the point Havic is making about the M7 being there for tension only but I'm not completely sold on that both of those notes act as a 7th. The argument I have is that a dim7 chord is symmetrical so the d7 is there because it makes the chord ambiguous, whereas the M7 implies where the tonic is. It's really a matter of semantics though, the chord will do what it does whether you look at the note as a M6 or d7, but it's worth thinking about.

Yeah, that's why I try and think of it as the "major 15" versus the major 7. The root of the diminished chord DOES matter, though, for voice leading purposes. The chord progression Cmaj7 Ebo7 Dmin7 G7 wouldn't sound the same way if you substituted the Eb for a Gbdim7 would it?

The thing with the diminished scale being symmetric works with its tensions, too. A diminished chord using octatonic diatonicism will have a tension natural 9, natural 11, b13 and major 7. All of these tensions form a SECOND diminished chord unto themselves. Bill Evans LOVED to exploit this aspect of diminished harmony, a great florish he loved to do was play a diminished arpeggio with one hand, and a diminished arppegio separated by a whole tone (or fourth, or minor 6th, or major 7th) with the other hand. CRAZY stuff there.

This discussion is so helpful to me - thanks a lot. I'm realizing one of my problems is to stop thinking like a keyboard player (a lifetime of that) and start thinking like a bass player. The part about the second diminished chord/tensions inside octatonic diminished chords is fascinating. Really helps me hear differently.

My advice to the OP is to become very comfortable reading all types of chord notation so you're not confused or thrown when encountering them in the field. I wouldn't get too caught up in the "proper" way to notate chords. If you come across something that is unclear or just plain ol' incorrect, you can usually figure it out by analyzing the progression or by hearing it played by the piano player, etc. Stick to the root and other notes that are a sure thing and listen and you should be able to hear it. Ask if absolutely necessary but do not correct anyone if you want to keep the gig. For your own notating purposes, pick whichever style of chord notation you prefer but just be consistent throughout.

Thanks, Scot. That's what I'm realizing. I am just now really getting chord synonyms, so to speak. I am also trying very hard never to correct anyone - that's very good advice. When I use written music, I mainly play off jazz charts - and they are arranged by a wide variety of people, including some "amateurs" (music is still really good). I want to both understand the charts and understand the mechanics.