I'm a bit confused...

I've learnt the blues scale - say starting in E - E, G, A, A#, B etc

and I have been trying to play along with 12 Bar Blues but the scaling is totally different.

Am I incorrect or is the the 12 Bar Blues a completely different scaling? Weird, please help! :hmm:

Cheers
Stuart

The blues scale is just a scale used to form solos. The 12 bar blues refers to the chord structure. IIII IVIV II V IV II. These are the chords you play to the form. So your supporting bass line could be any note coming off the root note to another note in the chord.

Are you trying to form a supporting bass line or a solo over the form?

I'm a bit confused...

I've learnt the blues scale - say starting in E - E, G, A, A#, B etc

and I have been trying to play along with 12 Bar Blues but the scaling is totally different.

Am I incorrect or is the the 12 Bar Blues a completely different scaling? Weird, please help! :hmm:

Cheers
Stuart


Each blues scale will work over a specific chord. You don't play it over the entire 12 bars - you need to change scales when the chord changes.

use mixolydian scales for walking lines (at least for a basic 3 chord 12 bar pattern)

Like Pacman said. For instance, if you're playing standard I IV V 12 bar blues in E then the chord changes are E A and B. You have to play the E scale over E, A over A and B over B.

use mixolydian scales for walking lines (at least for a basic 3 chord 12 bar pattern)

That depends on the music.

As Fishslapper said, 12 bar blues is the progression I IV V over 12 bars. The format is:
| I | I | I | I | IV | IV | I | I | V | VI | I | I |.

You could base this on the blues scale, you could base it on Mixolydian, you could base it on the Byzantine or any other given scale, if you really wanted to.

The blues scale doesn't necessarily mean that it will be used in every 12 bar blues progression just as every 12 bar blues progression won't be based on the blues scale.

Thanks guys great help, I know about changing the chords etc, I just think its a bit strange though that 12 bar blues doesn't allow the blues scale as the notes I mentioned when soloing over it, so it doesn't work so I have to use the Mixolydian scale which is almost a straight standard scale?

Of course some of the higher blues notes can be used but these lower blues scale notes sound wrong when playing the standard 12 bar blues bass (E, G#, C#, E) lines (an example would be the chords in this video, the first one I found http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHPcEmswDnE ) so I would have to use the Mixolydian scale or is there an alternative scale?

I'm basically asking what scale would be best to use over this progression.

Cheers for the answers already.

You have to lose the idea of using one scale over a whole progression. Unless the progression is entirely diatonic, you're not going to make it. Either way, the best way to outline the harmony is to play each chord change - and there's no shortcuts there. You've got to put in the work.

When playing "normal" supportive Bass in a blues, you'd outline the chord being played at the moment.

You'd use a pentatonic scale if you went off and did a widdly bit along with the drum fill at the end of (usually) a 4 bar section.

Also many classic Blues signature riffs tend to be pentatonic and may also include the flat 5.

Yep I know these things, but say just playing around with the first note E, the pentatonic doesn't seem to work with this bass line even though it's blues, so are you both saying there isn't a scale exactly, you would just need to either work out or feel the notes to play?

Bass lines really have to be based on the chords - you have to be outlining the chords.

Solos can make use of seemingly unrelated scales, but you have to have the skill to resolve these and the confidence that what you are playing, sounds right!

Yep I know these things, but say just playing around with the first note E, the pentatonic doesn't seem to work with this bass line even though it's blues, so are you both saying there isn't a scale exactly, you would just need to either work out or feel the notes to play?

No! We're saying understand what chords are in the 12 bar blues and outline them. In a 12 bar blues (using only the I, IV, and V chords) there are 3 scales used....

You're missing some vital information. I suggest you start here....
(http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/Bass_Line_Construction:_Target_Approach)

Oh I see, sorry and thanks :)

Listen to what these guys are saying. They are telling you the truth. You have to stay within the structure of the chord that is being played. If you don't, there will be bloodshed, lots o bloodshed. And you will learn the true meaning of da blues :) Blues players take that stuff rather serious. If you get to solo then all bets are off:) Just rebember to bring it back to the song when you are done:)

No, no - don't be sorry. I apologize for my ranting.


The only reason I'm passionate about it is that I was there once. Looking for a "one size fits all" approach - the proverbial magic pill. I wasted so much time looking for a quick fix, if I'd just put in the time, I'd be way ahead of where I am today. I'd hate to see anyone waste as much time as I did....

Hey no problem, I just got really frustrated that when I got the blues scale down well and can play fast runs with it, I thought, great, if I play 12 bar blues with people I can put in the Pentatonic blues scale and look impressive but this doesn't work all the time, I guess I'll just have to learn the scales of the chords being played.

Thanks again!

Ok, now you're cookin'! Learn the blues scale for each chord in a 12 bar - That's where you want to head next..

Like Pacman said. For instance, if you're playing standard I IV V 12 bar blues in E then the chord changes are E A and B. You have to play the E scale over E, A over A and B over B.

You should specify which scale, because a major or major pentatonic or minor pentatonic or blues scale won't work just because it's on the IV or V chord

You should specify which scale, because a major or major pentatonic or minor pentatonic or blues scale won't work just because it's on the IV or V chord

Actually, in a blues it will work. A blues will have dominant chords for all changes (generally), so E blues will work on the I, A blues on the IV, and B blues on the V chord will work just fine. In the key of E of course.

Each blues scale will work over a specific chord. You don't play it over the entire 12 bars - you need to change scales when the chord changes.

This isn't accurate, one can use a single blues scale over the entire 12 bar blues.

Basically what Pacman is saying is correct. It's pretty hard to explain in text exactly what is happening. There are a lot of factors involved in blues to do with tension and where notes lead to both ascending and descending and so on.

What you do with blues essentially in terms of scales is use a scale as a "template" for each chord and transpose that template to the respective chord that is being played. You can do this more or less diatonically depending on what you are doing with leading tones and passing notes etc.

This isn't accurate, one can use a single blues scale over the entire 12 bar blues.

You can, but I would say that this is less interesting than modulating the scale over the chord. Actually you are only changing one note per chord that is non-diatonic anyway.

This isn't accurate, one can use a single blues scale over the entire 12 bar blues.


You can also use a screwdriver to pound in a nail, but it's not the recommended approach.

This isn't accurate, one can use a single blues scale over the entire 12 bar blues.
Sounds a little boring, but in theory, you're right.

This discussion is exactly why I prefer a chordal approach than a scalar approach to the blues. I find it best to learn scales, get them down to where you can play them backward and forward, then forget about them and play what the chords suggest and what you feel. If I think in scales, I play scales, and that is very boring indeed. If I think in chords, I can just play what I feel is right without limiting myself to the notes in the scale or making it sound like I'm running scales. And that is SUPER important in blues because it's all feel.

You can, but I would say that this is less interesting than modulating the scale over the chord. Actually you are only changing one note per chord that is non-diatonic anyway.

Whether it would be interesting or not would depend on the player. Keep in mind we are talking about someone that is just beginning, why make things more complicated than they need to be? If the OP plays just those 6 notes "right" he/she can sound pretty good. It may not be interesting to you, but it may very well be to his/her audience.

Sounds a little boring, but in theory, you're right.

Depends on who's playing it, who's listening to it and why they're listening to it, wouldn't you agree?

You can also use a screwdriver to pound in a nail, but it's not the recommended approach.

If that's what you know how to use and you're more adept at using that screwdriver to do the job than the other cat with a full compliment of hammers...you get my point.

Depends on who's playing it, who's listening to it and why they're listening to it, wouldn't you agree?
To be honest, anyone who plays the blues with a strictly academic approach turns me right the hell off. Yeah, you have to learn the rules to be able to play, but emotion is 100% more important.

If that's what you know how to use and you're more adept at using that screwdriver to do the job than the other cat with a full compliment of hammers...you get my point.

This just comes across as nitpicking good advice IMO.

Whether it would be interesting or not would depend on the player. Keep in mind we are talking about someone that is just beginning, why make things more complicated than they need to be? If the OP plays just those 6 notes "right" he/she can sound pretty good. It may not be interesting to you, but it may very well be to his/her audience.

Ahh, one of my favourite arguments. You don't give people half the story just because they are beginners. That only leads to misconception, I have argued this time and time again.

It's not even about whether it's interesting or not, that is the way that blues is played. It's not so hard to explain to a beginner to play the same scale over each chord of a I IV V progression. I teach that all the time.

Sorry Phil, but you really are nitpicking without any reason to at people giving good advice here.

Whether it would be interesting or not would depend on the player. Keep in mind we are talking about someone that is just beginning, why make things more complicated than they need to be? If the OP plays just those 6 notes "right" he/she can sound pretty good. It may not be interesting to you, but it may very well be to his/her audience.


Keep in mind the OP has stated the blues scale over the whole progression sounds wrong (it's in the original post, and the reason for this discussion). Go figure.

Ahh, one of my favourite arguments. You don't give people half the story just because they are beginners. That only leads to misconception, I have argued this time and time again.

It's not even about whether it's interesting or not, that is the way that blues is played. It's not so hard to explain to a beginner to play the same scale over each chord of a I IV V progression. I teach that all the time.

Sorry Phil, but you really are nitpicking without any reason to at people giving good advice here.

http://www.shermusic.com/bluescales/page2.gif

http://www.shermusic.com/bluescales/page3.gif

http://www.shermusic.com/bluescales/page2.gif

Wow Phil, read the link. It says "the most common answer", not the right answer. It even goes on to say there is a major problem with your approach. And I agree.

Wow Phil, read the link. It says "the most common answer", not the right answer. It even goes on to say there is a major problem with your approach. And I agree.

Yes that is quite funny - the article points out why beginners sound bad when using the Blues scale over the whole progression! ;)

Good points though! :)

This is all good info, but you gotta' remember that the Blues isn't really about rules. I sure play a lot of notes that aren't a part of the Blues scale when I'm jamming to the Blues. Scales are a good starting point, then you need to learn when to break the rules, IMO.

Of course Woody, but we're talking starting points here. There are plenty of things that work great over the blues (no wrong notes, just wrong resolutions)...

To be honest, anyone who plays the blues with a strictly academic approach turns me right the hell off. Yeah, you have to learn the rules to be able to play, but emotion is 100% more important.


+1,000,000

To the OP, How is your ear as far as being able to play along with some tunes, and playing close to what you hear?

Look at all the artist whose main staple is 12 bar blues. If they played them all the same, folks would probably get bored and leave after a couple songs.

Learn all the technical aspects of it that you can, but like Jimmy said, feel and emotion is the most important , even above technical prowess.

Hope this helps
God Bless R.

I think I mentioned before - that you could say that Charlie Mingus' "Goodbye Porkpie Hat " is "just" a 12-bar Blues - but it is a tune in its own right that has huge emotion and harmonic/melodic interest, that makes it distinctly a Mingus tune! :)

Let It Flow

I think I mentioned before - that you could say that Charlie Mingus' "Goodbye Porkpie Hat " is "just" a 12-bar Blues - but it is a tune in its own right that has huge emotion and harmonic/melodic interest, that makes it distinctly a Mingus tune! :)


Yeah! Just like "Blues for Alice" is a 12 bar, right?

I think I mentioned before - that you could say that Charlie Mingus' "Goodbye Porkpie Hat " is "just" a 12-bar Blues - but it is a tune in its own right that has huge emotion and harmonic/melodic interest, that makes it distinctly a Mingus tune! :)

The solo changes however are very simple, 3 chords for the most part are repeated.

This isn't accurate, one can use a single blues scale over the entire 12 bar blues.

And sound like a bad guitar player doing it. Blues being mainly dominant chord trying to force one scale fits all doesn't work well. An important part good solo is your still hear the chord changes coming thru. Playing off each chord like Pacman is talking helps especially with rookies and riff oriented players.

Trying to use one scale over a series of chords requires more knowledge of key centers and knowing your chord tones to make the changes come out of one scale. Listen to rookies play thru Autumn Leaves and you know exactly what I'm talking about. The song has two key centers that are Major and it Relative Minor. Many will trying to just play the major scale over the whole song, but most sound like giberish because they don't change the notes they emphasize to make the key center changes come thru or the chord changes.

Great thread! I wish this is what most threads looked like. The spin I want to throw on the conversation is that while we focus on chords, 1st, 3rd's, 5th's etc. don't forget that there is only 12 notes and every single one of them can be played over any chord. Some of the notes, lets call them "the blue notes" must be used as passing notes but they can be played!

After 40 years of playing I became good friends with Preston Eldredge who has played with Asleep At The Wheel and The Sons Of The Pioneers. The swing bass this guy plays is sick! But he opened my eyes to the whole "no wrong note" concept and it took me out of that "play within this box" outlook of the fretboard.

;)

The solo changes however are very simple, 3 chords for the most part are repeated.


But on the original CD - the sax solo is incredibly melodic and maintains the mood of Mingus's melody - despite the 12 bar structure it sounds like Porkpie Hat and nothing else - there is no doubting whem you are listening to that solo, what tune is being played! :)

Yeah! Just like "Blues for Alice" is a 12 bar, right?

I'd love to hear somebody play a blanket blues scale solo over that tune. Actually, no, I wouldn't. That would be utterly miserable.

A big part of the "blues sound" is the tension between the guitarist playing blues scale licks while the bassist plays the "changes." The scale you'll probably be playing the most (depending on the song and sub-genre of course) is the major pentatonic scale. Yes, the blues scale might sound "wrong" over your bass line, but that's the blues!

Keep in mind the OP has stated the blues scale over the whole progression sounds wrong (it's in the original post, and the reason for this discussion). Go figure.

Oh sorry guys for putting you all through this! You wouldn't believe that a guy playing for around 15 years would ask this question hey?

Through this discussion and looking at scales I realised that the standard 12 bars blues (i now there isn't really a standard but I talking the bassline E, G#,B,C#,E,C#,B,G# like in the example I posted) is a MAJOR blues scale.

What totally confused me is that I have pretty much nailed the pentatonic blues scale and can solo quite nicely after not knowing about it for years due to YouTube not being avaliable back then! I was told time and time again, "This is the Blues scale" well it's not, it the pentatonic (minor) blues scale, and that the blues can be a number of scales. I always knew that you must change the chord structure, but it was this misinformation that I was given, thinking that the blues was always in minor keys.

I'm sorry for starting this thread and causing all these arguments amongst a usually friendly group! :bassist:

Oh sorry guys for putting you all through this! You wouldn't believe that a guy playing for around 15 years would ask this question hey?

Through this discussion and looking at scales I realised that the standard 12 bars blues (i now there isn't really a standard but I talking the bassline E, G#,B,C#,E,C#,B,G# like in the example I posted) is a MAJOR blues scale.

What totally confused me is that I have pretty much nailed the pentatonic blues scale and can solo quite nicely after not knowing about it for years due to YouTube not being avaliable back then! I was told time and time again, "This is the Blues scale" well it's not, it the pentatonic (minor) blues scale, and that the blues can be a number of scales. I always knew that you must change the chord structure, but it was this misinformation that I was given, thinking that the blues was always in minor keys.

I'm sorry for starting this thread and causing all these arguments amongst a usually friendly group! :bassist:

You are over-analyzing it. It's totally normal in the blues to mix major and minor sounds.

I know, I know :crying:

There isn't a major or minor blues scale. It's all just blues scale. Yes, minor 3rd. It's the minor 3rd (and the flat 5) of the blues scale against the major 3rd (and perfect 5th) of the chords that creates the tension.

Since you're talking basslines, my point becomes even more important, although the mixolydian mode is probably more appropriate. More importantly, however, when playing basslines is to play chord tones. Do NOT try to take a bassline for a chord progression out of one scale. That just isn't going to work.

I would say that blues is not just about chord tones though, it's about creating certain types of tension and release sequences against those chord tones too. One thing the blues is about melodically is movement and how the movement of notes from one place to another creates tension. The most obvious tension comes from the tritone, which is probably why it is commonly referred to as the "blue" note. Also leading tones both ascending and descending can have a lot to do with the notes played.

As far as all this talk about "just feeling it" goes, the best "feel" comes from musicians that know their options.

Also, just on one small point of correction, the "blues scale" is not a pentatonic scale. The term "blues pentatonic" is a misnomer since the "blues scale" has six tones and not five.

I would say that blues is not just about chord tones though, it's about creating certain types of tension and release sequences against those chord tones too. One thing the blues is about melodically is movement and how the movement of notes from one place to another creates tension. The most obvious tension comes from the tritone, which is probably why it is commonly referred to as the "blue" note. Also leading tones both ascending and descending can have a lot to do with the notes played.

As far as all this talk about "just feeling it" goes, the best "feel" comes from musicians that know their options.

Also, just on one small point of correction, the "blues scale" is not a pentatonic scale. The term "blues pentatonic" is a misnomer since the "blues scale" has six tones and not five.

Yeah, I agree here. If you're playing a bassline, of course, chord tones are supreme, but as far as a melody or solo goes, just cycling through the arpeggios isn't blues, it's bebop. The Blues is mainly a MELODIC idiom, and its approach to chromaticism and line-building is actually pretty complex. If you're too worried about the harmony, it's not going to sound like the blues, its going to sound like jazz. Going the other way, reducing it down to a single "scale" is missing a lot of the nuance that goes in to how the blue notes function over a chord progression or melodic sequence. Sure, the minor pentatonic "blues scale" has its uses as a chromatic superimposition, but in practice, you're note going to be using it in any strict sense.

A point to make about the whole minor key/major key harmony when applied to blues. Blues harmony is a unique entity unto itself that exists somewhere in between major and minor - some call it "dominant" harmony since the tonic chord is a dominant seventh chord. There is a lot of tension involved in the harmony, but unlike regular dominant chords in tonal major/minor key harmony, there isn't instability in the tension that requires it to resolve. Both major 3rds and minor 3rds work, but you have to listen to the context in which they are represented in order to best use them for a musical effect.

You guys are hitting just what I was looking for...

So as long as you are playing a note in the blues scale of the cord that is being played at the time your cool? Right...?

Now I am shure it's listed somewhere but what is the structure of a blues scale?

Beginners blues bass IS chord tones when the come away from root thumping, they just don't realise it. As in standard rock 'n' roll bass lines they are chord tones. Once you become proficient you can bend a few rules but only once you have the basics down. Listen to rock and roll that follows the 1, 4, 5 progression ( thats a generalization) and in particular the bass lines, they come from the blues but due to arrangements and better recording equipment available they sound clearer so the bass is more defined.

At jam sessions or in house bands part of the problem i find with novice players i encounter when you ask them for a key they say "A". My next question is "A what". The chords been used are important because of chord tones, more info is need to make a jam work and be interesting as Blues is pretty much incestious in its structure,

Remember the theory of playing blues could be written on a postage stamp, but its feeling...well lets say that would be a very very big book.

There isn't a major or minor blues scale. It's all just blues scale. Yes, minor 3rd. It's the minor 3rd (and the flat 5) of the blues scale against the major 3rd (and perfect 5th) of the chords that creates the tension.

Since you're talking basslines, my point becomes even more important, although the mixolydian mode is probably more appropriate. More importantly, however, when playing basslines is to play chord tones. Do NOT try to take a bassline for a chord progression out of one scale. That just isn't going to work.

In "Think Twice Before You Go" from John Lee Hooker's "The Healer" the bass line is taken straight from the E blues scale as you define it, played over the entire progression. It works very well in that tune, but it is the only example of its kind that I can think of.

In "Think Twice Before You Go" from John Lee Hooker's "The Healer" the bass line is taken straight from the E blues scale as you define it, played over the entire progression. It works very well in that tune, but it is the only example of its kind that I can think of.

Well then, the exception proves the rule.

In "Think Twice Before You Go" from John Lee Hooker's "The Healer" the bass line is taken straight from the E blues scale as you define it, played over the entire progression. It works very well in that tune, but it is the only example of its kind that I can think of.

Please note...anyone starting to learn Blues bass John Lee is not the place to start, unless you want confusing in your head? John Lee is about feel.... not how you feel it but about how John Lee feels it, and for most new players to Blues it just to much to understand because they do not understand the man and his music. Aspire to play John Lee Hooker material don't start there.

Aspire to play John Lee Hooker material don't start there.

True enough. I hadn't been playing very long (still haven't, relatively) when I brought that disc to a lesson, played the tune and asked, "***?"

My teacher listened a bit and said, "Oh, that's the blues scale." We worked it out and I still enjoy playing it as a practice warmup, but I haven't tried to work it in anywhere else.

I think it is a good example of applying the blues scale, if anyone ever needs one.

You guys are hitting just what I was looking for...

So as long as you are playing a note in the blues scale of the cord that is being played at the time your cool? Right...?

Now I am shure it's listed somewhere but what is the structure of a blues scale?


If you read the whole thread - this is exactly NOT what it is saying - in fact it has links to articles about why beginners sound so bad, when they solo over the Blues!! :p

I think the consensus of this thread is that "technically" you could play a solo using the Blues scale only - but that attempting to do this is why beginners often come a cropper and that you are far better trying to play chord tones and listen to a lot of the music - trying to feel what is being done, rather than over-analyse! :)

If you're too worried about the harmony, it's not going to sound like the blues, its going to sound like jazz.


Jazz blues. Now what?

Alot of the mojo about blues is that quite often (but not always :)) you've got a minor melody over a major harmony, so in soloing you can get away with playing just the minor blues scale over a blues progression. Guitarists do it all the time.

The key point is that when you're playing bass you're usually not playing over the progression - you are the progression! so as many others have said, outlining the chords is the best place to be.

If you're interested in playing "proper" standard bass, then that's as much as you need to start you off and you can look at scales again after you've got the chord thing down.

If what you're interested in is soloing with a scale bsed approach, then this is how I'd approach it;

You can make a single combined blues scale by combining the minor blues scale (so in E that's E, G, A Bb, B, D E) with the major pentatonic (E, F#, G#, B, C#, E). that get's you the following;

E - Root note
F# - Major Second
G - Minor Third
G# - Major Third
A - Perfect 4th
Bb - b5th ("blue note")
B - 5th
C# - Major 6th
D - Minor 7th

Which you can also think of as the dorian mode with an added major third and b5, or the mixolydian mode with an added minor third and b5 :)

The advantage of thinking in terms of combining the major pentonic and the minor blues (or dorian and mixolydian if you want to get fancy) is that you can switch between and/or combine the major/minor tonality at will.

The big caveat with any scale based approach is that you still need an awaness of the chords, so that you pick notes from the scale that go with the chords you're playing over at any one moment.

As usual YMMV, etc etc. there are many ways of thinking about this sort of stuff and I'm just offering my perspective on what's worked for me in the past. A very important point to remember about blues is that it came into being outside of the remit of standard diatonic western music theory, so trying to explain it interms of western music theory - while possible - is somewhat against the grain. I'm fairly confident Robert Johnson didn't know what a mixolydian scale was, but I think we can agree he could play the blues. :)

p.s. there's another note that you won't find at any of your frets, or in any of the scales mentioned above. You have to bend the minor third up a bit to find it (it's between the major third and the minor third).

Yep I know these things, but say just playing around with the first note E, the pentatonic doesn't seem to work with this bass line even though it's blues, so are you both saying there isn't a scale exactly, you would just need to either work out or feel the notes to play?

The E "blues scale" which is a pentatonic minor with a b5 added to it, is a framework for soloing over the blues changes. But for a functional bass line that outlines the harmony, you gotta get away from that scale. That's because the main part of the scale that makes it sound "blues" is the minor third being played against the major third of the chord. If the chord is E7, then the chord is E, G#, B, D. And when the soloist plays the G natural of the scale against that G# in the chord, it creates the tension and the sound that's characteristic of the blues.

But as a bassist your job is to outline the harmony, so you're going to want to put that G# in there more than the G. For blues stuff ignore scales (and even worse are modes) and be able to know exactly what's in each chord through the changes. That's a more vialbe framework than scales.

jte

Here's some links that may help out:
http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/blues/Bluesprogression.html Blues Progressions explained with samples
http://www.amazon.com/Blues-Bass-Jon-Liebman/dp/0793586682 "Blues Bass" book/cd by TB member Jonster (John Liebman)
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=502819 Blues books
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=506931 Slow blues