Hi all,

For you guys who have learned to play the fretless way I have a simple question:

Would you recommend that I purchase a bass with or without fretlines, and why?

Thanks guys for your advice about this.

Beast

Jaco's had fret lines.
'nuff said.

I'd go with no fret lines. I've never owned/played a fretless bass guitar (its on my to-do list still) but I play upright bass. No fret lines would force your ear to develop more and I'm pretty sure that if you needed to you could use tape marks.

Doesn't matter. You shouldn't be looking at the neck anyway.

If your ears are good enough, go with what you want.

I got one with the lines. I disagree, a little, with everybody saying if your ear's good enough you don't need the lines. By the time you realize you hit the wrong note, it's too late. You have to adjust on the fly to figure out if you're hitting things too sharp or too flat. It's so much easier to just look down at the lines and see where you're off a little bit.

If you have a ton of time to practice to get where you can play on a lineless bass, then go for it. With the lines, you can get up and playing really quickly. After one or two practices, you'll know where you need to place your fingers relative to the lines and you're off and running from there.

whatever you feel comfortable with...in the threads i've sifted through on the topic, it seems to polarize into 2 main camps, each having reasonable points

personally, dots on the side of the fretboard are my preference, with no lines...i can't really see the fretboard when playing anyway, just the side

From one who plays both fretted and fretless basses, I say yes to fretlines, dots on the side or both. Some fretless basses that use lines are (were) Jaco, Gary Willis and Chris Tarry.

Upright basses have no lines but their are significant changes in the neck thickness and feel that guide correct finger positions that are then appropriately adjusted with the help of a good ear. This physical help does not exist on a fretless electric thus lines and dots are needed to get you close, especially in the learning stage, which you adjust using your ear. Vancouver bassist Chris Tarry explains this a lot better than it just did, so check him out.

It also helps a lot to use a fretless that is identical to your fretted bass. This helps with muscle memory to find the correct finger placements. This was Jaco's approach: he stated that he always practiced on a fretted jazz and performed/recorded with the fretless.

It also helps a lot to use a fretless that is identical to your fretted bass. This helps with muscle memory to find the correct finger placements.

^ this is a good point! i picked up my fretless jazz last night to noodle while talking to my wife, and man, i need practice since i recently moved from gigging a fretted jazz to a 35" scale 5!

Jaco's had fret lines.
'nuff said.


The only reason he had fretlines was because he ripped the frets off himself and filled the gaps with putty.

Get an unlined. They have dots on the side of the fingerboard on those rare occasions you need a reference point. That's plenty.

I would say do what you feel is best, but I believe that having fretlines dose aid in developing intonation. Every now and then having a visible destination for your fingers is helpful. I have played lined fretless and upright, on my upright I have drawn "target lines" with a pencil. I had an upright teacher who did that.

All this talk about fretless basses is giving me G.A.S.

whatever you feel comfortable with...in the threads i've sifted through on the topic, it seems to polarize into 2 main camps, each having reasonable points

personally, dots on the side of the fretboard are my preference, with no lines...i can't really see the fretboard when playing anyway, just the side

+1

I'd go with no fret lines. I've never owned/played a fretless bass guitar (its on my to-do list still) but I play upright bass. No fret lines would force your ear to develop more and I'm pretty sure that if you needed to you could use tape marks.

True - but the neck of an upright with regard to your vantage point and other 'landmarks' is easier (IMO) to orient on than an EB. Looking down the fingerboard on an upright and getting familiar with the first few positions using the upper bout as a reference offers you some pretty handy visual cue points that you don't really get with an EB unless you hold it like you would an upright.

Excuses, excuses, I know - but I've always found it much easier to orient myself on an upright than on an electric fretless.


whatever you feel comfortable with...in the threads i've sifted through on the topic, it seems to polarize into 2 main camps, each having reasonable points

personally, dots on the side of the fretboard are my preference, with no lines...i can't really see the fretboard when playing anyway, just the side

I both agree and disagree. How's that for a non-answer?

I am finishing up my first build - a 5-string, fretless - and I WANTED to go with a lined fingerboard but through a series of newbie mistakes, ended up with no lines.

"So what?" I think to myself. I started on upright and my first fretless was unlined - what's the big deal?

So I dotted the side of the fingerboard (helpful) and have played it a few time and found that while the dots are helpful, and yes, you should be using your ears and not relying on being able to see the lines on the board, it's more difficult to play without the lines. Not impossible and I will definitely get used to it and ultimately be a better player (ear-wise) for it - but it doesn't change the fact that it is just a bit more challenging to play.

I don't mind the challenge, but if I could do it again, I'd keep the lines. My next build (if fretless) will be lined unless I get really comfy with this unlined version.

When I get around to trying one...

If it already has lines, then fine.
If I actually ORDER something my preference would be dots. It looks cleaner.

Jaco's had fret lines.
'nuff said.


Ah, the old "cause Jaco did" argument. :smug:



(just goofin' with you dude)

All this talk about fretless basses is giving me G.A.S.

I have the Squier VM Fretless Jazz. Damn good for the money... has lines though.

+1 to the "you shouldn't be looking anyway" argument, BUT...there are certain situations where I've found the lines to be helpful.

1) When starting out in my fretless endeavor I found the lines to be a better visual cue to get myself situated on the fretboard. The dots work too, I just happened to have found the bass I wanted on the bay and it was lined.

2) if you're ever in the situation where you don't have adequate stage volume or can't hear yourself in the monitors well, it can get you in the ballpark and save your fretless booty the embarrassment of slooping all over the fingerboard.

Jaco, Marc Egan, Gary Willis, play lined fretless almost exclusively. Doesn't mean it's right but it does show me that they don't let their ego or fussiness about aesthetics get in the road. They do what works.

URB unlined? Sure, and a 42" scale compared to a 34". You don't have much wiggle room on an BG. If you play URB, how good is your intonation high up on the neck? That's what fretless BG is all the time. It just may be that with regard to good intonation a fretless BG presents more of a challenge (and there seems to be this subtext that the guys playing those big unlined uprights are spot on all the time -- not so. Which makes you wonder if there were lined URBs maybe more guys would play them, or play them better)

The lines are certainly not 100% accurate either. Like the Pirate's Code, They're more like what you might call guide lines. But they sure help to get you where you want to be.

The lines are certainly not 100% accurate either. Like the Pirate's Code, They're more like what you might call guide lines. But they sure help to get you where you want to be.

So true! When I replaced the fretboard on a junker bass with a home made, lined fretless fingerboard, I inadvertently cut some of the fret position slots slightly crooked. I was initially bummed, then I realized - it just doesn't matter! Those thing don't impact the intonation. They are just there as reference points!

After that, I actually considered making a fingerboard with really wacky fret position markers - maybe zig-zags or something... Haven't gone there yet, but it's still on the table!

I would say it depends on how long you have been playing bass, period.

If you are just starting, the lines may be a help. OTOH if you have played fretted basses for many years you probably have pretty good "muscle memory" built-in and then I would definitely recommend unlined.

I have been playing (fretted) for 28 years, and recently had the chance to try out an unlined fretless and a lined fretless on separate occasions. Strangely enough I did a lot better on the unlined than on the lined (intonation wise) and I think it's cause when the fretlines were there I was playing by look but without them I was relying more on muscle memory and ear. Also, even with the fretlines you will still have to work on intonation and it may actually make it harder, since depending on where you are on the neck will determine where you press the string relative to the lines. I.e., dead center between 4th and 5th "fret" may be dead-on but may be "off" between 12th and 13th fret.

And if looks count for anything, well then unlined is the way to go, hands down.

Hope this helps.

URB unlined? Sure, and a 42" scale compared to a 34".

And what about cello?

When I play in a University big band, I have to watch both the chart and the director. Because of this, I can't afford to be looking at lines for my intonation. My fretless is a lined fretless, but unlined with dots suites me better because it gives me a reference point for when I have to jump 5 or 6 six positions, then I can go back to watching who/whatever I need to and rely on my ears for the rest. I kinda wish I would have just gotten an unlined neck instead of ripping my frets out so long ago because I wound up relying on my eyes before I started going to college for music. I haven't been here for very long, but the other day one of the guys told me "ok, tomorrow you're playing fretted" because my intonation is so bad when I'm not looking.

So, what I'm getting at here is this: If you think you might wind up in situations where you need to look at other things than your neck, get an unlined and train your ears. If you're ok with having your head buried in the neck, then lined isn't *too* bad.

And what about cello?

I feel that with violins, violas, celli, contrabasses, et al. there's no need for any sort of markers. Not only are they much more conducive to 'using the ear' but your vantage point on the neck is vastly different and more conducive to being able to hit your positions than on a guitar or bass guitar.

Also - since upright and cello are typically found in orchestral settings where your eyes are either supposed to be on your music or the conductor (mostly the conductor), a marked fingerboard would not get looked at much anyway and would really destroy the look of those instruments (IMO).

Lined or unlined, dots or no dots, your intonation is only going to be as good as the work you put into it. I've heard many great players on uprights and fretless electrics have moments where the note needed a little extra slide to be in tune. The debate can go on forever with no resolution, but practice will get results.

The other problem I see in this discussion is that people assume that once you have a lined fretless you're gonna be looking at the fret board. The looking is the problem, not the lines, one should work on developing intonation by ear. Even with an unlined board one can still find visual guides, a place where the grain pattern changes, maybe a knick in the side of the board, hell I did with the upright. If you spend anytime sight reading, that will get you away from looking at your neck, cause if you look away from the music for a second you'll lose your place. On a gig that'll keep you from getting called back.

Every time I hear someone use the "but upright basses are unlined" argument I have to wonder if that person has ever played upright. Upright basses have a neck that joins the body somewhere around D or Eb on the G string. In other words, the neck joins the body around where the 7th or 8th fret would be on a bass guitar. In other words, there are huge physical references for knowing where you are on the fingerboard visually. Bass guitars clearly have the neck join the body much further down the board. Couple that with the much larger scale length on an upright, which means a larger area where you can intonate and be reasonably accurate, and it makes more sense that you don't need lines on an upright. Most bass guitars are of a scale length that will require frequent shifts, but small enough that makes minute inaccuracies noticeable.

Just get the lines. Lines are useful if you need an occasional viual reference. If you get into a spot where you can't hear yourself very well, they can be a godsend. The sole advantage to unlined fretless is aesthetics. If you worry about what a few other bassists think, then consider an unlined. Otherwise get a lined. Some people say they find the lines distracting. Those people need to quit looking at their hands when they play.

Note: the lines aren't 100% accurate, but they are very close. They are a great tool when you need them. Just don't rely on them to be the final say on whether or not you have intonated properly.

My first bass was an unlined fretless acoustic. I've no issues with playing either, but wouldn't ever purchase an unlined again for reasons I've stated above.

PS: No one intonates by ear. They intonate by muscle memory. If you are relying on your ear to let you know when you hit a wrong note, then you've already lost the game. Your ear can only hear notes that've already been played. IOW, everyone else can hear that sour note also.

I don't disagree about lines, I do believe that the ear needs to play a huge role in your intonation. Muscle memory will only work as well as the players ear lets it. If you practice shifting from a C up to a G on your index finger, but consistently hit the G slightly flat, your muscles will remember going to the spot where the flat note is. On the other hand, if you're actually working on HEARING the sound of a perfect fifth your muscle memory will be better served by your ear. As was stated before even the lines on the fretless could be slightly inaccurate, hell even fretted basses aren't perfect.

If you aint hearin' it in tune, you aint playin' it in tune.

Ah, the old "cause Jaco did" argument. :smug:

I just wanted to be first person to say it.:hiding:

If you rely on the lines to play in tune, you will spend a great deal of time playing out of tune.

I learned to play bass on a fretless. I started w/lines and now I just use side dots. Now when I play a lined neck I find it visually cluttered and confusing. I use the side dots as a visual aid by reading the spaces between them - the negative space. The first through 9th fret spots there is 1 note between the dots and from the 9th fret up there are 2 notes between. If you think the correct note is where the line is then you will trust your eyes and not ear and get confused because your finger is saying you are in the right spot but your ear is hearing your out of tune. Whether or not you use dots, lines etc the goal is to play in tune and hear the note vibrate in harmony. You may have to wiggle your finger to get proper intonation but to me that is the beauty of playing fretless.

I only play fretlesses with lines and/or dots because it is what works for me. However, I really don't care what anyone else plays, I just care how it sounds and if I enjoy the music.

Pick what works best for you, and don't expect anyone to give you the ultimate answer. It takes experimenation and experience to eventually learn what works best for you. Think of all the time (and $$'s) some of us have spent figuring out what strings, scale length, string spacing, type of pick, pickup configurations, strap, BG brand, BG model, etc. etc. work best for our individual style and physical makeup.

Doesn't matter. You shouldn't be looking at the neck anyway.

+1

:cool:

I started out on fretless.
I have own both lined, and unlined.

Unlined to me, is eazier.
I tend to look at a lined fret board more.
Same with a fretted bass.

I have a lined fretless, fretted, and an upright. I try not to look on any of them, but in my practice room I have a mirror that I use to look when I need to. It really has helped me break the habit of looking down at or over to the neck.

PS: No one intonates by ear. They intonate by muscle memory. If you are relying on your ear to let you know when you hit a wrong note, then you've already lost the game. Your ear can only hear notes that've already been played. IOW, everyone else can hear that sour note also.

I bet you play out of tune quite often.

As you refer to double bass quite often in your post, are you aware of the 2 kinds of shifts you can make? The "Kreisler" (named after Fritz Kreisler) and the "Heifitz" (named after Jascha Heifitz). One of them involves portamento upon leaving a note and the other involves portamento upon arriving on a note. The idea of both shifts is to connect the notes but they are also for intonation purposes.

If you think that the line or dot on your neck is the absolute for pitch reference then you probably have never played in an ensemble setting.

Hi all,

For you guys who have learned to play the fretless way I have a simple question:

Would you recommend that I purchase a bass with or without fretlines, and why?

Thanks guys for your advice about this.

Beast
It's up to you, I guess. Playing in different temperaments might be a bit harder with lines if you're watching your fingers, because you'll naturally want to go to the lines.

Jaco's had fret lines.
'nuff said.

Jaco probably picked his nose too.

'Nuff said... :rolleyes:

MM

Would you recommend that I purchase a bass with or without fretlines, and why?

Playing a fretless bass with fret lines is like riding a bike with training wheels...

MM

Hi all,

For you guys who have learned to play the fretless way I have a simple question:

Would you recommend that I purchase a bass with or without fretlines, and why?

Thanks guys for your advice about this.

Beast

For your first fretless, get unlined. You need to force yourself to use your ears. Going fretless requires a major plastic change in your brain, sense of intonation, and hand/eye coordination, dexterity, fine motor control, etc, and lines damage and *slow* this delicate process.

*After* your ear and positional sense is developed, lined fingerboards are great for playing with excellent intonation on dark stages or in the recording studio when it really counts. Even then, I recommend continuing to practice on an unlined.

It is unrealistic to expect fretless electric players never to look at the neck. Electric necks, even though they have shorter scales than double bass necks, have no positional cues like their big brothers. Just don't fall into the trap of "cheating" instead of developing your ear.

Hope this helps!

Playing a fretless bass with fret lines is like riding a bike with training wheels...

MM
Hell, you could say that about frets. Fret lines are more like the lines on the road. Sure, you don't actually need them, but they're helpful sometimes.

I took a slightly different approach.

I buy basses that inspire me. One day I went to check a fretted Peavey Cirrus in a store nearby, but it was very high on the wall and I had to wait for someone to get it. While I was waiting, I picked up an MIM Fender Fretless.

That bass inspired me. It resonated beautifully, and the neck was the perfect size for my hands. The fact that it was fretless was irrelevant. I didn't buy that bass because it was fretless; I didn't even know if I wanted a fretless. But I knew I wanted that bass because I enjoyed playing it.

I love holding that bass. I love playing that bass. I have gigged and recorded with it. It's just fun.

I don't ask myself, "Do I want to play fretless today?" I ask myself, "Which bass is going to inspire me today?"

You guys responded to my question with gusto. I REALLY appreciate all your input. I have much to think about. You all bring up very good points. Even the one about Jaco;)

I try to focus on what my hands are doing, and not where they're hitting. My few forrays into the land of the fretless have yeilded results better than what a stoned chimp could pull off, but not good enough to get on stage with.

Thanks for the giving me stuff to think about.

A slightly different thought for you:

In my dealings with the bass guitar, I have come to conclusion that the BG, as an instrument, is a bastard, half-breed, red-headed step cousin-in-law of the upright bass, and not something that can be properly called a "guitar," even though it can be played like a guitar much more easily than a URB.

In my dealings with the bass guitar, I have come to conclusion that the BG, as an instrument, is a bastard, half-breed, red-headed step cousin-in-law of the upright bass, and not something that can be properly called a "guitar," even though it can be played like a guitar much more easily than a URB.

Ha! I just wrote a lengthy post in another thread on this subject yesterday:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6255296&postcount=33

I don't see why you couldn't just sand the lines off if you got sick of them

They generally go as deep into the fretboard as actual frets...you'd have to sand off most of the fingerboard and replace the nut.

Green Mind, I hope you're kidding!

i thought i would need fretlines, but then i tried out one without em and it was much easier than i thought. mostly you see the back and side of your neck anyways, so as long as it has the dots on the side you're all good.

a good ear. This physical help does not exist on a fretless electric thus lines and dots are needed to get you close, especially in the learning stage, which you adjust using your ear. Vancouver bassist Chris Tarry explains this a lot better than it just did, so check him out.

It also helps a lot to use a fretless that is identical to your fretted bass. This helps with muscle memory to find the correct finger placements. This was Jaco's approach: he stated that he always practiced on a fretted jazz and performed/recorded with the fretless.
Haha. I started on an unlined Tony Franklin Fender Precision P fretless, which in hindsight was a bit daft as my main gigging and rehearsal fretted bass is a 24 fret model an inch longer in scale (I think).

Given I've had the bass over a year and still can't play outside the first position properly I'd have to agree with this.

Maybe I should trade the ESP for a fretted Fender P, but I loves me pointy models :D

I bet you play out of tune quite often.




You'd have lost that bet. Am I perfect? No. Am I good enough that I get regular calls for work and stand in on fretless? Yep.

But hey, don't let that stop you from questioning the playing of someone you've never met.

Random fretless question for everyone!
I've got an unlined Fretless Fender Jazz with dots. I've always tuned with harmonics on the 5th and 12 fret and have always played on the dots to keep in tune.
A lot of lined players play on the lines to keep in tune correct?
Is there a "correct" way or does it just come down to what you prefer?
Sorry for the silly question but lately I've been feeling a wee bit self concious of this!

Random fretless question for everyone!
I've got an unlined Fretless Fender Jazz with dots. I've always tuned with harmonics on the 5th and 12 fret and have always played on the dots to keep in tune.
A lot of lined players play on the lines to keep in tune correct?
Is there a "correct" way or does it just come down to what you prefer?
Sorry for the silly question but lately I've been feeling a wee bit self concious of this!

Dots on a fretted bass are between the frets. A lined fretless is just a fretted board without the frets. Lined fretless players use the lines as reference points cause that's where the note is.
On unlined boards, the side dots should represent the note.

Bottom line, if you're playing in tune, you're ok.

Dots on a fretless are not necessarily the same as dots on a fretted bass. The side dots on my unlined fretless (Steinberger Synapse) are positioned where the fretlines would be; there is a dot for each of the missing 24 fretlines.

It's always confused me about the "just use your ears" remark when it comes to fretless basses. Ok, use your ears...but how do you hit that first note and make it right? If the neck thickness doesn't help you on a fretless electric bass, and people say don't rely on fret-lines to make you in tune...then how in the hell do you get that first note right? You're not hearing anything before you strike the note, but you have to hit it just right and then go from there. Are you using just the dots on the side of the neck to get an approximation?

What am I missing here?

You should always hear the notes before you play them.

Every time I hear someone use the "but upright basses are unlined" argument I have to wonder if that person has ever played upright. Upright basses have a neck that joins the body somewhere around D or Eb on the G string. In other words, the neck joins the body around where the 7th or 8th fret would be on a bass guitar. In other words, there are huge physical references for knowing where you are on the fingerboard visually. Bass guitars clearly have the neck join the body much further down the board. Couple that with the much larger scale length on an upright, which means a larger area where you can intonate and be reasonably accurate, and it makes more sense that you don't need lines on an upright. Most bass guitars are of a scale length that will require frequent shifts, but small enough that makes minute inaccuracies noticeable.

Just get the lines. Lines are useful if you need an occasional viual reference. If you get into a spot where you can't hear yourself very well, they can be a godsend. The sole advantage to unlined fretless is aesthetics. If you worry about what a few other bassists think, then consider an unlined. Otherwise get a lined. Some people say they find the lines distracting. Those people need to quit looking at their hands when they play.

Note: the lines aren't 100% accurate, but they are very close. They are a great tool when you need them. Just don't rely on them to be the final say on whether or not you have intonated properly.

My first bass was an unlined fretless acoustic. I've no issues with playing either, but wouldn't ever purchase an unlined again for reasons I've stated above.

PS: No one intonates by ear. They intonate by muscle memory. If you are relying on your ear to let you know when you hit a wrong note, then you've already lost the game. Your ear can only hear notes that've already been played. IOW, everyone else can hear that sour note also.

+1

Get lines and/or dots, or have other visual cues.

The vast majority of fretless BG players use their ears and eyes. Pick your favorite fretless bass players, and then look up those people on YouTube. Very few will play something complex [up and down the neck] w/out using his or her eyes.

Why p--- against the wind? Aesthetics? Please.

There is no shortcut to playing fretless. You have to practice, practice, practice. Use your ears (and a tuner) to detemine where your fingers should be placed to play a selected note in tune. Once your ears tell you where that spot is, you need to practice over and over to build up muscle memory so hitting the spot becomes automatic......... fretlines and/or dots will help guide you with this process.