I don't have my heart set on this, but it would be nice if there was a specific place to post music theory related questions. As I told Jazzbo a couple of days ago, I have made my last post in BG General Instruction due to the mountains of tab requests which are allowed there and the intensity with which the right to post them is defended. I like talking about theory on the net, but I refuse to do it in a place where most of the space seems to be devoted to taking the easy way out.

If there was enough interest, I think a theory forum could be a really beneficial asset to TB, as there are quite a few members who are quite knowledgeable on the subject, and also a few folks who seem really interested in actually learning something about music besides how to imitate where the latest "bass flavor of the month" put his fingers on the most recent MTV smash hit.

Thoughts, comments, insights, inspirations?

Chris I support adding a THEORY FORUM.

I would like to see one. It would also be something I haven't seen at other bass forums. Might be a drawing card for more supporters.

I also would like to see a Forum dedicated strictly to theory. It would be a great place for people who don't know theory or who are trying to learn theory to ask questions. We have some members here with a tremendous amount of knowledge to share.

I know very little about theory, and so would have little to add. However, I would have much to gain. I'd like to see a theory forum, just to see what all the fuss is about, and maybe learn something too.

Or...

Maybe we could give tab requests it's own home instead. We already have Technique and General Instruction. If you take a look at General Instruction, most of the non-tab request threads involve some form of theory, whether it's chord structure or time signatures. The rest of the threads could be moved to Miscellaneous, where they should probably be anyway (asking where to find bass teacher isn't really "instruction," in my opinion).

By creating a "Tab Requests" forum, we keep them all in one place. Creating a Theory forum will turn General Instuction into the dumping ground for tab requests. And let's face it, if you don't know ANY theory, you don't know tab AIN'T theory. You'll still get tab requests in the Theory forum too, I guarantee.

This isn't a slam on tab. But if it's a bone of contention, let's give it it's own happy little forum, where like-minded individuals can frolic hip deep in rhythmically-challenged ASCII code. It would truly be the shiznit. :rolleyes: ;)

And please, dear god, let us do it before school lets out...;)

Originally posted by lump
Or...

Maybe we could give tab requests it's own home instead. We already have Technique and General Instruction. If you take a look at General Instruction, most of the non-tab request threads involve some form of theory, whether it's chord structure or time signatures. The rest of the threads could be moved to Miscellaneous, where they should probably be anyway (asking where to find bass teacher isn't really "instruction," in my opinion).

By creating a "Tab Requests" forum, we keep them all in one place. Creating a Theory forum will turn General Instuction into the dumping ground for tab requests. And let's face it, if you don't know ANY theory, you don't know tab AIN'T theory. You'll still get tab requests in the Theory forum too, I guarantee.

This isn't a slam on tab. But if it's a bone of contention, let's give it it's own happy little forum, where like-minded individuals can frolic hip deep in rhythmically-challenged ASCII code. It would truly be the shiznit. :rolleyes: ;)

And please, dear god, let us do it before school lets out...;)


I've suggested this before, and the idea always got shot down...but I have nothing against it. My point is simply that threads on theory and how to improve as a bassist should not be forced to share space with threads about how to imitate a song in instant gratification mode. The going sentiment from the pro tab faction seems to be that GI is for tab requests, and that anyone who tries to get the point across that tab stifles musical growth is giving lectures because they're mean...in other words, the feeling seems to be, "If you can't give bad advice, don't give any advice at all". That atmosphere is not a fertile breeding ground for intelligent discussion. If a tab request forum were around, it should make both sides happy, as neither would have to deal with the other on the issue.

Personally, the proliferation of tab threads in GI doesn't bother me, because it's just a question of avoiding those threads that don't interest me, but I can see the merit of having a separate forum for either tab requests or theory. I think that one thing that was suggested a while ago was the creation of a forum for "advanced" theory, so GI would cover more basic concepts. As daunting as such a forum would be for a rock moron like myself, I'm sure that it would be very enlightening.

Personally I think a Theory forum would be a good idea - but there is a lot of misunderstanding about what "theory" is and generally the less knowledgeable, tend to lump anything boring or dull in this category.

I also don't see why GI has to be the home for Tab Requests - I mean the vast majority are basically just asking how to search the net....or for somebody to do it for them!

I think that both the terms "General Instruction" and "Theory" are going to be misunderstood and maybe a new term with some clear guidelines about what it means would work better?

Maybe : "Musical Education and Instruction" - with guidelines or just a short sub-title that explains the idea is to help people become better bass players and all-round musicians?

Maybe there could be another guideline that says if you are looking for Tabs click on the archive - if it's not there then seach the net - if you still can't find it then it's time to start thinking about working these things out for yourself! ;)

Very good points all around. I am in definite support of a forum of this nature. I would be more than willing to moderate or co-moderate said forum. Because of the tab debates, it makes it very difficult to have tab requests in the same forum as the music instruction requests or questions. Because this site receives an inordinate amount of its growth because of the existence of tabs, there's no reason not to tolerate people requesting them, it's only natural. But, for all involved I believe it would be more constructive to have two separate threads. And, as Bruce said, the word "theory" might deter some, (although hopefully it won't).

It's evident we need to correct this situation when we lose someone like DURRL because he's not being respected. If we lose sight of the more valuable members of this board, (that's right, I truly believe DURRL and some others are more valuable to this board than some others!), we're doing a horrible disservice to this community. Think of the number of people he has impacted and helped, compared to your Flea vs. Kool-Aid Man type threads.

We need to nurture the educational part of this site.

I agree as well - there do seem to be separate camps regarding "General Instruction".

I'd like to see this happen, just because then the pointless Pro-Tab vs. Anti-Tab flame wars might actually end! :)

Im for whatever it takes to keep tab requests out of theory related forums. And more importantly, keeping Durrl around to help educate others about theory. I thought general instruction was just that. General theory instruction. IMO tab requests should not be put in there.

The problems getting out of hand and i fully support whatever it'll take to fix the problem.

Durrl to you I say stand strong man, get back in GI and keep spreading the word. You're knowledge has help teach more ppl there than those who want tabs. and those who dont like what you have to say about tabs...well **** um

dont make mama cass have to grab you're ear and pull ya back in. ;)

Wow, thanks for all the words of support! I don't want to make a huge deal out of this, nor do I really want to try to make people "take sides"... but it would be nice to see the situation resolved to everyone's satisfaction. I would also be happy to co-moderate such a forum if it was felt that a new forum was needed/desired...if not, and a special tab forum were set up, then I don't see any reason to change anything in GI besides moving the Tab threads, as Chris A. :rolleyes: (aka - ROLLEYES TABEVIL) has always done a very good job of moderating there.

I guess the person we really need to hear from is Paul at this point. Paul? What say you to all of this noise?

If Paul does not go for separating TaBz, I have another idea that might work.

I could start a thread in Miscellaneous called Tab requests and move any and all tab requests into that thread. Kind of like giving TaBz their own Forum, without creating a new Forum.

I think thats a good idea Jeff.

Just bump it up every other day or so to keep it noticable.

you know, a while back i suggested starting a theory forum...

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5628&highlight=theory+forum

but the reasons against it were general apathy - the spirit is willing but the posters were weak. :D

I'll chime in as well and suggest a new forum.

I think a forum right below GI called "Tab Requests" would be pretty foolproof in deterring GI invasions. Sure, there will be some idiot who doesn't catch on, but moving the occasional post isn't all that difficult. I know there are a bunch of people, myself included, who would be happy to moderate the Tabz forum if it meant cleaning up GI and keeping the valuable members posting.

Well,

When I specifically requested the GI forum (wayy back when), I didn't envision being the keeper of the tab threads. I would be all in favor of clearing them out and having a more "theory oriented" GI. That's more of my area of "expertise", anyway. I think I am as baffled by tabs as my posters are by notation.


Chris A.:rolleyes:

Sorry for not chiming in sooner - I really should check into this suggestion forum more often since I created it :) Just been so busy with other stuff :(

Anyway, some great points made in this thread - Both suggestions have been brought up (theory and tab forums) in the past, but never really got the support needed on either idea (till now it looks like).

I think a TAB forum would be a good solution, place right next to GI. Many users have raised concerns that a TAB forum would only invite slam posts and such, but I think a couple good moderators can take care of that.

I think it'd also be good to put in a sub-text explanation below each forum name, explaining it's purpose (like the pro forums). That way we can clarify that GI is the official home of theory Q's.

What do y'all think about Bruce's suggestion to change GI's name to "Musical Education and Instruction"? Is that too specific?

Sounds fine to me, whatever works. This sounds like it's going to work out great. And I promise to never, ever bother anyone in the Tab forum. No, really. :D

So... when can we start, and what can any of us do to help get this thing off the ground?

Thanks,

Chris

I'd volunteer to moderate a theory forum as well (since I'm not as busy as SADHO with OT).

It might be a nice idea to include the link to it both in the BG side and the DB side, since it's not instrument specific and most of the guys in castle DB are well versed in the subject.

I'd like to see a distinction between tab and actual theory and maybe an advanced one as well.

I'll even offer to moderate the tab one providing another mod can cover US or Australian time zones as I don't get enough sleep as it is.

...but I wouldn't mind seeing tab request threads banned from TB, period, end of subject. Maybe that should be part of the User Agreement.

Look at it in financial terms--there is a high inverse correlation between a TB member making a tab request and being a Supporting Member. The kind of person who is unwilling to drop as little as $20 to support the best musically-oriented site on the Internet is probably unlikely to want to actually take the time and effort to learn a song by ear. It's a something-for-nothing attitude. Let 'em go to TabCrawler.

Getting back to the original topic, I would support a dedicated theory forum whole-heartedly.

You know, I think Pete is right, but for different reasons. If the song isn't already in the tab section, chances are that nobody here knows of it, or don't want to tab it out. The forum section doesn't seem to have been set up with tab requests in mind. (?)

Newer TBers likely aren't going to know any of that, though, so spelling it out for them in the user agreement might be a good idea.

Still, as I said, I fully support the removal of tab threads from GI - or, should I say MEI?

Peter & thrash: Good point... You've started me wondering - exactly what purpose would a tab-request forum serve? Other than to get tab requests out of other forums (that's not a good enough reason by itself to start up a new forum, IMO). Would people actually spend the time to tab out songs for the requests made? Like y'all have said - searching the net is easy enough - we don't need to spoon-feed people...

Perhaps a banning of tab requests IS the way to go - we could refer requests to the BTA (http://www.basstabarchive.com/request.html), and put up a FAQ on how to read TABS - would that take care of the needs & wants of the tab'ers?

Forgive me for thinking out loud... If we didn't do the tab forum, and cleaned out tab requests from GI as mentioned above, would a separate theory forum still be needed? Is GI "big" enough to hold legit theory discussion and the inevitable tab debate threads?

Still thinking... :)

Taking an idea from another thread in the suggestion box: Maybe a new forum called "Music Theory & Songwriting" would work? Theory and songwriting are different topics, but I'm thinking that since songwriters should know their theory... well, maybe the two would be well suited together. I'm no expert on songwriting, so I may be off base here... thoughts?

I stated before that I think that there is a need for separate tab and theory forums but having had a re-think...

IMHO

There is a need for a forum to discuss theory in terms of note choice, chords etc and a "help I'm stuck on a certain song/bassline and can you help me out" type affair.

Answers can be in the form of black dots, the dreaded tab or "it's a G" whatever.

I think that this would neatly divide those that want to progress or discuss and those needing a Blink 182 line for tomorrows school talent contest.

Originally posted by CS
I stated before that I think that there is a need for separate tab and theory forums but having had a re-think...

IMHO

There is a need for a forum to discuss theory in terms of note choice, chords etc and a "help I'm stuck on a certain song/bassline and can you help me out" type affair.

Answers can be in the form of black dots, the dreaded tab or "it's a G" whatever.

I think that this would neatly divide those that want to progress or discuss and those needing a Blink 182 line for tomorrows school talent contest.

Sure, I have no great opposition to learning fretboard patterns and such--it's endless lines of "E-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3" that bother me.

Originally posted by Pacman
I'd volunteer to moderate a theory forum as well (since I'm not as busy as SADHO with OT).

It might be a nice idea to include the link to it both in the BG side and the DB side, since it's not instrument specific and most of the guys in castle DB are well versed in the subject.

If a link were possible to both sides, this would be a great idea, although I doubt the software would support that. I don't see any problem with simply renaming GI to whattever suits everyone. The point that theory is not instrument-specific is a good one. It could also be argued that the potential types of musical questions likely to be asked on different sides of the board would be completely different, which would annoy some and amuse others. Perhaps a compromise in which each forum had its own theory section with a "sticky link" at the top to the forum on the other side would work. I don't have strong opinions on this, and would like to go with whatever makes everyone happy. To this end, I'll post a "heads up" link to this thread on the DB side, and then maybe some of the guys can drop by and weigh in on the issue.

Peter, Paul, (Mary), and CS,

As far as banning tabs altogether, I could also go either way on that. My goal in all of this is not to wipe tabs off the face of the earth, but rather to separate them from things that are educational in a long-term way. So if there was a dedicated tab forum, I'd be fine with that, and if TB was declared a "tab-free zone" I'd be fine with that as well. What I strongly object to is giving TAB legitimacy by placing it side by side with Theory instruction. It simply doesn't belong there.

And as far as the "inevitable tab debate threads", whatever we decide to do here should put an end to those entirely. If there was a tab forum, the "anti-tab" people should be good enough not to go there, and the "pro-tab" folks should avoid the theory forum unless they are actually participating in a theory-related discussion. Putting this rule into place shouldn't be difficult, and the punishment for breaking it could be something severe, like DEATH, or being forced to read BASSHEAVY'S entire archived internet output in a single session.

Songwriting could be a part of a theory forum, but it could get complicated by the fact that - for popular music at least - a large part of songwriting involves lyrics, and as far as I know there is no "theory" behind that. As always, I could be wrong...

Once again, the reason why I don't think a tab forum is necessary is this: Out of all the tab forums, in how many did the requests get answered? In six months, I've seen perhaps one answer. There may be others via PM and such, but I still think most requests went unanswered.

Thanks for the above post, Chris - I now understand CLAN TABEVIL's frustration with the GI forum, even if I don't always agree with them. I have found it frustrating at times as well, for much the same reasons.

As for mixing songwriting with theory, I think that may be entering another gray area. IMHO, part of songwriting is theory-related, but the rest boils down to ear, personal preference and creativity, among other things. And, yes, for some people, writing songs means... lyrics. Just... lyrics. Man, those people BUG me. I can only imagine the silly questions that will be posed... :eek:

I'm going to set up a tab forum. Tab requests may be futile, but we will always have a lot of tab fanatics around, and if nothing else the forum will act as a filter for GI. As Chris A said, we originally set up GI for more theory-oriented discussions. I believe theory discussion will thrive in GI when the tab forum is available.

The tab forum will need serious moderating I'm sure. Mod applications can be sent to admin@talkbass.com

Originally posted by paul
I'm going to set up a tab forum. Tab requests may be futile, but we will always have a lot of tab fanatics around, and if nothing else the forum will act as a filter for GI. As Chris A said, we originally set up GI for more theory-oriented discussions. I believe theory discussion will thrive in GI when the tab forum is available.

The tab forum will need serious moderating I'm sure. Mod applications can be sent to admin@talkbass.com


Originally posted by Thrash_Jazz

Thanks for the above post, Chris - I now understand CLAN TABEVIL's frustration with the GI forum, even if I don't always agree with them. I have found it frustrating at times as well, for much the same reasons.



I know that it seems like the "clan" is a bunch of grumpy, mean-spirited jerks at times, but it's because many of us are either pros or have aspirations in that direction, and know all too well what a dead end tabs are. They're like "hooked on phonics" for music, and are often given a legitimacy far beyond their value just because they are quite in-demand by the instant gratification crowd. Last year, I couldn't even find any bass transcriptions of the Bach 2-part inventions for use in collegiate-level teaching that didn't include tabs, and it just made me sick. A division needs to be made so that those who are serious about pursuing music to a deeper level don't waste their time on a dead end street. Looks like we're on the way to fixing that around here, thanks to Paul and all of those who spoke up on the subject. :)

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
Last year, I couldn't even find any bass transcriptions of the Bach 2-part inventions for use in collegiate-level teaching that didn't include tabs, and it just made me sick.

I have the Mel Bay book of those, written by Bunny Brunel, and I'm sad to say that the tab component of them did more to hurt my reading than anything imaginable. I remember a couple licks from Invention #14's right hand part, and that's it.

It's one of my greatest regrets as a musician, perhaps the greatest: my reading is beyond piss-poor. I can barely read written-out quarter-note walking lines, let alone anything complex.

I like the idea of renaming GI. I think "Music Instruction" works fine. Either that or "Durrl's World." Either will do.

Originally posted by jazzbo
I like the idea of renaming GI. I think "Music Instruction" works fine. Either that or "Durrl's World." Either will do.


Hey, hey, you go naming your forum for Durrl, not mine!

Chris A.:rolleyes:

I am for a tab forum, maybe it can even be kept seperate from the database so us "new today" clickers could even avoid it. :D Ya ya I am lazy.

As far as the theory forum I think is a good idea, a lot of us have knowledge but there is always a need for more. I am up in the air on 2 theory forums. (one for DB and one for BG) Truly 2 different methods but I have never had a problem getting questions answered on the DB side. Plus we are more prone to having teachers.

I vote yes for a TAB-free forum! :)

Hello,
I would like to see a Theory Forum. I`m studying Theory with my Teacher but at times its confusing and a fresh outlook from others would be nice. I have a suggestion : What about a "Talkbass Theory Class". I mean a Theory Forum teaching basic Theory for beginners..say lessons added weekly and for that week it can be talked about in the Forum between members and the next week..." a new lesson". I think someone very capable should moderate it...Durrl... This way the new members on both sides can be involved and no one gets over anybody`s head Theory wise. I do know the DB side "I`m very fond of myself" has members that are more notation friendly and may wish to have a Jazz Theory Fourm also. I dont see why not. I know I have a few questions myself but someone new to Theory might be confused as to a dim chord or a C7flat5 and so on. Just my two cents. I do look forward to whatever happens. Thank you for your time.

Dave

If the world didn`t suck we would all fall off....

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
Last year, I couldn't even find any bass transcriptions of the Bach 2-part inventions for use in collegiate-level teaching that didn't include tabs, and it just made me sick. A division needs to be made so that those who are serious about pursuing music to a deeper level don't waste their time on a dead end street.

"Hooked on Phonics" for music - :D . I find those dual tab/notation pieces to be tools of the devil - if you can't figure out a part right away, the answer IS right there, and your reading never improves. To me, tabs serve a wholly different purpose than notation. IMHO the two should be kept apart from one another... which is what is happening here now!

I was thinking - since so many people do see learning by ear as an insurmountable task, and thus unknowingly develop TAB addiction, perhaps a DB-Newbielinks-style posting in the TAB thread could address these issues? (I haven't recanted yet on TABS, but I do think that TABdiction is evil.)

EDIT: 666th post, bwahahahaha.

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
Wow, thanks for all the words of support! I don't want to make a huge deal out of this

What option makes less work for Chris Fitzgerald? (And no, he did NOT pay me to post this, either.)

So is the "Theory" forum idea dead?

I'm posting this 'cause Chris got mad at us over in DB. ;) We don't talk much outside of the castle.

My opinion: the theory forum sounds great to me. Over in DB there have been some great theory threads running in both "technique" and "miscellaneous" forums that I keep my eye on; it would be good to get them together. And I'm all for a unified BG/DB theory forum; I think it might expand some horizons on both sides. Perhaps it would eventually outgrow itself and need to be split up, but maybe not.

As for a separate jazz theory forum, I don't know. There could be a newbie thread at the top that links several introductory threads and topics, or even a course (as suggested). But I think a general theory forum would be big enough for all discussion - jazz, rock, classical, etc. I guess if a flood of very basic theory topics was ongoing then a "jazz theory" forum or something deeper might be needed.

A good introductory thread in the "Theory" forum would be "Why TAB is bad for your musical development" led by Chris and Ed.

Thanks. I'm going back now.

Wow, that was quick! Now that the new Tab forum is up, mightn't it be a good idea to move all of the tab threads from GI into it to sort of give it a running head start? I plan on doing this in DB if we end up with a Theory forum...all of the theory stuff from Misc could go in there, sort of like a "housewarming". If Chris A needed any help doing this, I'd be happy to volunteer to get the ball rolling...it could probably be done in a few hours.

By the way, I'm leaning towards a separate theory forum for DB and BG, with links stuck to the top of each so that people will have easy access to both. Don made a good point about how each was likely to be used for specific purposes, and those who wanted to read both could easily do so. Also, I don't really see the need for a separate Jazz forum, since all theory deals with the same 12 notes anyway. FWIW.

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
Also, I don't really see the need for a separate Jazz forum, since all theory deals with the same 12 notes anyway. FWIW.

Chris,
Not to nit-pick, but I think a separate section for jazz theory *would* be appropriate. There are many aspects of theory that apply to classical and jazz theory, but jazz theory is different enough that certain concepts might warrant having a separate section. Just a thought....

Originally posted by JazznFunk


Chris,
Not to nit-pick, but I think a separate section for jazz theory *would* be appropriate. There are many aspects of theory that apply to classical and jazz theory, but jazz theory is different enough that certain concepts might warrant having a separate section. Just a thought....


That's true, but you can put enough in the title to let people know what the thread's about. If it's a jazz thread, people will figure it out quickly enough. It's not like these forums are gonna be jumpin' on Saturday night or anything...I bet the traffic is slow enough that there's plenty of room for both in one forum. If not, we could always make that decision when events warrant.

If we do it this way and it turns out that the elitist Legit Theory snobs start dissing the jazzers by condescendingly aDdReSsInG tHeM iN fIeLdY tYpE, then I'll eat my words. :cool:

Originally posted by JazznFunk
Chris,
Not to nit-pick, but I think a separate section for jazz theory *would* be appropriate. There are many aspects of theory that apply to classical and jazz theory, but jazz theory is different enough that certain concepts might warrant having a separate section. Just a thought....

Concur. I think creating Jazz Theory forum is more appropriate than creating an all-purpose Theory forum which, again, would emasculate General Instruction on the BG side. Let GI handle classical/diatonic stuff for BGers, and let Jazz Theory handle jazz for all. Jazz Theory will probably be very DB heavy anyway, so it shouldn't detract too much from BG GI. IMO.

But I would also wait a coupla months to see what impact the new Tab Request forum has on things before I started messing with stuff more.

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
It's not like these forums are gonna be jumpin' on Saturday night or anything...

Whoo-hoo! It's Saturday night boys and girls. Let's hop on down to TB and start a rousing discussion on voicing altered chords. Whoo-freakin'-hoo!!!

:D

Originally posted by lump


Concur. I think creating Jazz Theory forum is more appropriate than creating an all-purpose Theory forum which, again, would emasculate General Instruction on the BG side. Let GI handle classical/diatonic stuff for BGers, and let Jazz Theory handle jazz for all. Jazz Theory will probably be very DB heavy anyway, so it shouldn't detract too much from BG GI. IMO.




So you're saying put Jazz theory in DB and make BG GI the regular theory forum? Well, that could work. I still stand by my statements about Saturday evenings, however.

In my mind the contents of a unified theory forum would be for the most part abstract (duh) and thus would be applicable to both instruments. DB and BG would still have their separate sections for technique, strings, etc...


Also, I don't really see the need for a separate Jazz forum, since all theory deals with the same 12 notes anyway.
I couldn't agree more!


Enforce a strict no-tab rule, and everyone's happy. :eek:

When I want tabs, I go to www.mxtabs.net. When I want intelligent discussion, I come to TB. I say stop hosting tabs, keep the tab forum tucked away where the troglodytes are out of sight, and let's get on with it. I use tabs yes, but I don't think that TB is the sort of low-brow site that needs to waste its time on them.

As for the 'TB could be the only place they hear a different way' aspect, do you really think those kids are so serious about bass playing that they'll listen? They're coming over to one of the best bass discussion boards ever, and they want a TaB 4 7H3 n3W kOrN s0N6, d00d! I say they'll be playing guitar a year from now.

EDIT: However, when I do want tabs, I get the guitar tab so I can figure out the lines a little by ear, and also brush up on my songwriting - the guitar plays that and the bass plays that, etc. However, hosting guitar tabs on TB would be ethically wrong, so just ignore this part of the post.

:D