I'm an electric player now, and next year I'm hopefully going to learn upright.. I generally practice very hard - I can already read music, etc.

So how long do you think it would be before I have a grip on it, and can improv decent walking bass lines, and play some arco pieces? Will my electric experience speed things up at all?

i've been playing electric for 3 years and upright for about a year. I haven't had all the time in the world to practice, but I'm still constantly working on my intonation. If you can already play good improv walking basslines on electric then you'll have an easier time. If however, you're like me and are still working on refining your walking skills even on the electric, then it may take some time.
having played electric helped me in the sense that, i knew what my scales and arpeggios are supposed to sound like, so I know when my intonation is off.

My advice, get yourself a good teacher. the upright truly is its own beast.

i did the same thing, and really they are very different in a lot of regards. sure it's the bass clef, etc. - but the approach is often miles apart by most players.

really what i realized after playing electric for 3 years is:

1) that my ears weren't as up-to-par because i thought of everything visually. donno what learning is like for you, but either way, you need to *HEAR* the notes on the upright.

2) a great appreciation for self-made tone. with the electric i relied on the dials, for tone, and in upright it's all your flesh and bone.

the good thing is that these two things, once developed on the upright, will make your electric playing way better. and you'll probably realize that upright is the pimpest sounding instrument on the entire planet and the electric is really only cool for rock music ;)

I don't know how it goes in Jazz... but from scratch it takes about four years, three hours a day, to be able to play in an orchestra that can contemplate a reasonable fraction of the literature. Obviously, if you can already read well that will reduce.

Since I was already a professional orchestra player when I first picked up an EB, I can say that that instrument is really pretty easy by comparison... I bet it's not coming in the other direction.

My first DB gig was about 6 months after starting. Played e-bass for about 9 years before that.

I'm new here and getting ready to learn to play upright bass too, so I keep asking myself the same question.

Keep in mind that the variables can alter the timeline wildly. I heard on person play double bass a few days ago, and it was discouraging, because they had been playing for 10+ years, and their pizzicato intonation was making my ears hurt on very simple bass lines (but arco was fine). Then I hear another guy who's been playing for a month, and while he was no Mingus, he was laying down some solid lines.

And of course, a lot of it is how deep you go with it musically. Bluegrass, pop, folk, etc, would probably be a lot quicker transition medium than bebop or Bottesini or Beethoven.

I dont play an upright, but after 13 years of electric I am still not compitent.

I went the other way around. I started playing upright/classical bass in middle school and went to bass guitar a year later. While I still play bass guitar more I'm still surprisingly proficient with upright bass; I played all through middle and high school and just for grins auditioned for OU's orchestra and actually got in.

If you practice enough I'd say you'd get used to moving around an upright and getting the right feel for it in about 6 weeks or 2 months. But like lowend said, get a teacher, it'll make the transition much easier.

I coulda start gigging after 4 years but I'm not sure I'd enjoy it. Count on it taking much longer than you think. Intonation is a bitch.

Although I played upright a little in high school (30+ years ago), it took me at least nine months of off-and-on practice to feel comfortable enough with my sound to drag my DB into an acoustic practice and ultimately, to coffeehouse gigs. Hearing the intonation is key. When I get fatigued, I start losing it.

It seemed like as soon as I got an upright, people started calling me for gigs. My poor EBG sits in a corner 99.9% of the time. However, the good gigs didn't start coming until my junior year of high school. I guess in total it took a good four years before the real pros started calling me for sub work, and another two years of that and jam sessions before I got regular pro work. To literally answer the question though, I still feel insufficient most of the time.

I honestly don't think I'll ever consider myself competent on an upright. The producers seem to disagree.

Competent in which circles? Are talking about local schmoes or talking about the playing with "the cats"? I think you should be able to a club date type gig fairly quickly if you already have a reportoie, already know something about music and stick to the money notes. A year or so....
If you are talking about mastery of the instrument and being able to play Jazz at Lincoln Center, (play anything, in any key, in any position, in tune) you might think in terms of years/decades depending on if you can practice 5-8 hours a day. If you are adding arco playing to the mix... even tougher road.

The secret is to enjoy getting better.... it's the journey, not the destination. Kinda like life.

Your reading skills will help, but your EB skills won't. Depends on how much time your willing to put into practicing and how often. If you want to get serious about DB you are probably going to mainly focus on DB if you want to improve quickly.

My poor EBG sits in a corner 99.9% of the time.

HA! Same for me once I picked up DB. Funny how that happens.:D

I've had mine since late October. I've been assured that I will spend 5 years working on the beginners mistakes and then I can move on to the advanced ones.

I've been playing for a long time. Although "competent" is a malleable concept, I have a hard time listening to anything I recorded more than a few years ago. It evolves; your ear and your technique change. Some days I'm happy with my playing, more often than I used to be. Other days, I just think I'd be better off applying for a job at the new Whole Foods outlet. I'll probably do that anyway, just in case. :hmm:

I've been playing for about two years and I'm most definitely still a beginner. But last night, I actually played something that sounded just like what I was "singing" in my head. It was a thrilling moment that I was beginning to think was never going to happen. When I get to the point where I can do that regularly, then we can start talking about competence.

So I'll get back to you in 5 or 10 years!

I've been making a living at it for over twenty tears. But with a little more practice, I'm confident I'll get it right sometime soon.;)

My path went EB to fret less to EUB to DB. I don't feel quite there yet on the DB after 6 months and almost a year on EUB. I spend almost all my practice time on the DB and alternatively the EUB. I've played EB for nearly 40 years.

I just starting working with an R&B group that is drawing me back to EBG and eating into my DB practice time. It's all good though. Keep working at whatever it is.

-richard

I've been playing on and off since my freshman year of high school '68, (started DB for Dixieland), by my senior year, I thought I was pretty awesome, my director thought so too, I played jazz, blues and concert then, put I've never played real paying gigs until the last few years.
I spent twenty years in the Navy in engineering; steaming ships, didn't get a whole lot of off time between Navy and family to try to get in a band. I rarely saw my wife and kids as it was and they wouldn't have appreciated it too much if I were playing in clubs as soon as I got back in home port.
My intonation still sucks sometimes, fingering a 5th position note on the "G" I sometimes miss the pitch and have to quickly correct. However, I still like playing my DB much better than playing my fretless BG. The BG is easier to lug around though........:)

My whole life up to this point and the rest of it as I continue in this musical endeavor.

IMO, it's better to just stop wondering how long it will take to achieve perfection/compentency. Just be happy you're playing the damn thing. :D It'll come the sooner your start practicing. ;)

My whole life up to this point and the rest of it as I continue in this musical endeavor.

That's probably the best answer so far, because it applies no matter how long you've been playing.

That's probably the best answer so far, because it applies no matter how long you've been playing.

Yeah, I guess as long as you can redefine competent as something more you will never get complacent. I think on any instrument and especially bass you have to always be progressing. The limits of our instrument haven't been met yet. The other thing is we still don't hold the same amount of recognition and respect in the strings world that we deserve. The day that we are seen as equals with the Violins, Violas and Cellos will be a great day, but for now we gotta keep pluggin away at it.

The definition of competent varies a lot. I've been playing for almost twenty years. Ten years ago, I auditioned for 3 music schools and was accepted to 2, but ultimately chose not to make music my career. These days, I play with a couple of non-professional orchestras that range from moderate to good (with strong players in many sections auditioning for professional gigs). Among those groups, I'd say I'm moderately competent, and I'd say I've reached that threshold after maybe 6 or 8 years of playing, with lessons.

But by my definition of competent, I've got a lot of work to do.

The day that we are seen as equals with the Violins, Violas and Cellos will be a great day, but for now we gotta keep pluggin away at it.

Does that mean we'll then be subject to the same jokes as the viola section???:confused:

Does that mean we'll then be subject to the same jokes as the viola section???:confused:

AAHHH you beat me too it:D

As Rabbath says "Give a man a bass and he will be comfortable in 10 yrs. Give a woman a bass and she wiil want to get married in a week!"

Rabbath said that? Crazy. What does that have to do with this thread anyway?

Oh well, this woman actually has only been playing double bass for about 8 years. Stated late. Prevously was an electric player. Funny, a few years ago I thought I was doing really well. This year, when all evidence seems to point out I am a better player, it just seems like all my faults as a player are glaring at me and are in need of attention. Maybe I am just geting ready for another learning leap. What I thought was good or at last OK in my playing just is not OK anymore.

For all these years I have been devoting more or less equal time to both jazz and classical, so I think my road to any kind of mastery is going to take a little longer because I just have to be competent in jazz and somewhat competent in classical. Competent for me means playing professional types of gigs. Competence is relative depending on your goals, but unlike electric bass, you are going to have to get some basic technique and intonation in order to play some decent gigs. How long depends on how and what you practice.

I guess the biggest question is: competent to do what? Hence the great variety of answers.

Everyone who stays with an activity like this knows you go on learning and increasing your competencies for ever. So it's not as if the question really has an answer, unless you limit the scope.

From my perspective, I would say that it is about daily maintenance of one's musical, physical, and mental condition; more a function of immersion levels, rather than a more linear type of progress.

If one steps out of training/immersion, most facility disappears. Its like sports; if you aren't in shape, you aren't in shape. Bass has a heavy physical dimension, that has to be overcome, then maintained, to be able to get into the musical part of things.

For me, now, as a dabbler, I practice a daily cycle of neglect; what vital things will I overlook today, that I attended to yesterday, so that I can be mediocre, overall, with the (now) limited time I have to practice and play?

The other part is psychological/spiritual; how much resistance each of us may have, internally. It suffices to say that there are many inner challenges that can take years to walk through. So, how "long" it takes to play well may also have a lot to do with how fearless, absorbed, aware, and "present" we are when playing/practicing, and what kind of expert guidance we receive, and the caliber of the players we surround ourselves with.

One of the greatest gifts I got from good teachers and better players I have known was the thought that my progress relates directly to my ability to be cooly self-critical. To see what is weak, to work on that, steadily and calmly. To not spend time on familiar stuff; to keep forging ahead, working on issues as they become apparent.

I signed on to this forum because my decision to tackle the DB had passed the 50% mark. I find the prospect exciting and scary all at once. On the one hand, this thread has reinforced the scary part. On the other hand, it has reminded me that I'm contemplating a journey of personal growth, and that scary really shouldn't matter.

Thanks to all for their responses. I've decided on which bass I would get, I have spousal approval, I mostly have the money... I might soon be posting as a neophyte player.

Been playing Electric for 15 years, and just got started on the DB in April of 08. So, I've been playing every day for roughly eight or nine months, I guess. I could already read music fairly well (had some piano background) by the time I came to the DB.

By my estimate, it's going to take me about ten years to get past "beginner" errors. I'm still making the rookie mistakes; poor intonation, sloppy bowing, rhythmic mistakes.

Definitely try to learn classical technique; find a teacher who will take you through the Simandl Method. It's all about learning those position-based exercises. Also, do make the effort to learn arco. The double bass is an instrument that is meant to be bowed.

The DB is just a bitch to play. The truth is the longer I play it, the less I suck at it. A good teacher in invaluable at showing me my weak spots. With very few exceptions, the good players have been at it for several years and work very hard at it. It is well worth a lifetime of dedication as it is a magnificent instrument.

... Funny, a few years ago I thought I was doing really well. This year, when all evidence seems to point out I am a better player, it just seems like all my faults as a player are glaring at me and are in need of attention. Maybe I am just geting ready for another learning leap. What I thought was good or at last OK in my playing just is not OK anymore....

...Competence is relative depending on your goals, but unlike electric bass, you are going to have to get some basic technique and intonation in order to play some decent gigs. How long depends on how and what you practice.

Yeah, I think as with so many subjects with double bass playing it takes a while just to get a sense of how much you don't know. When I first switched over from EB I was happy to thump along root-5 in the lower positions. For most of the old-time, bluegrass, celtic type jams I play that's perfectly adequate and the melody players are happy to have a bass in the mix. Probably happier than when I decide to bow a melody forcing a bunch of them to switch to guitar or mandolin to support the rhythm.

but now my listening habits and goals have changed... listening to a lot of Paul Chambers and Ray Brown and playing far enough up the neck to consider thumb position as a next step. So as Andrew said "competent to do what ?" Right now I'm competent enough to have fun and challenge myself while working to be competent at higher levels someday.

+1 on the arco barbar... great for intonation and building left hand strength whether bowing is your thing or not.

Hey Monochrome, congratulations on the spousal approval! That's often a big hurdle for those with spouses :)

It is well worth a lifetime of dedication as it is a magnificent instrument.

Amen, Brother Clink !

Hey Monochrome, congratulations on the spousal approval! That's often a big hurdle for those with spouses
I married wisely, for this and many other reasons.:)

I started out playing both, then walked away from the DB, and picked it back up after 25 years. After two and a half years of studying this instrument again, I do an adequate job of playing in the lower registers, I am still poor at thumb position work (just glad most of what I play at gigs I am not expected to play in the higher registers, even on BG).

I am going to echo everybody else here, and say just play the thing, and it will come to you.

A very sucessful (in his field) man once told me, "if you want to get good at something, spend two lifetimes doing it". I know some shops that don't have clocks so they won't get tired at 3am. I doubt any orchestral player got by at less than 15 hours a day. But...you can get as much enjoyment toying around as you can learning complicated solos, as long as the bass makes you happy, it has done it's job.

How long is a piece of string?
That's your answer.

If you want to be able to play root fifths at slow to moderate tempo in songs with three chords you should be able to do so with reasonable to good intonation in no time if you have a good ear. If you want to play bebop at 225bpm and improvise solos, it depends on a. whether you can already do that on EB , b. whether you need to learn how to do that musically, c. if there are enough hours a day you can spend fruitfully practising.

Competent, no time at all really, in fact I was playing bass before I owned one. When I got my own bass I fell in with some local groups who were playing bebop and a great piano player who played very fast and some of his tunes lasted 30 mins. So that was great training; I learnt stamina and good walking lines. That was 45 years ago. HaHa. Now, am I good? Well, probably not; my technique is not pretty to behold and as I was self-taught I can be a bit of a train wreck. However, on balance I would not have traded my early days experiences for formal lessons.

To answer your supplementary question, surely your experience as a EB player should stand you in good stead, I'm sure that you must already have a head for bass lines.

On a PS, I'll have to own up to what did it for me. When we were at school we were starting to enjoy HiFi stereo discs; we listend to anything that went round at 33.33 rpm. One of the guys had the new soundtrack disc of My Fair Lady which had some pretty tunes on it. Then Andre Previn brought out his jazz piano take on all the MFL tunes, with Shelly Mann on drums and Leroy Vinegar on bass. That man taught me how to take a good walking bass line off a standard tune and turn it into something magic. We all start somewhere and that is what did it for me. I do an average of 3 gigs a week at age 67 and next to my wife the bass is the only other love in my life. It has given more than I can ever give back.

Roger,

Nice post! It is always inspiring to read about bassists in their 60's and beyond who are out there doing gigs. I am in my 50's, got a late start in bass, and I just know there is still plenty of time to become good at playing bass with my perseverence.

The answer is the same. Long tones, long tones, long tones. On a double bass you are teaching your muscles where the notes are, so switching instruments has a learning curve. It does come back to constant ear training.
Playing double bass is like wrestling a gorilla,he's always gonna be stronger that you but you can build your strength and learn new ways to get around on him. A teacher is crucial to pointing out flaws in your technique which is how you'll beat the gorilla. Start doing finger-tip push-ups. Really is about strength and fortitude. When it gets to accidentals that's where the ear training will count.

The DB is just a bitch to play. The truth is the longer I play it, the less I suck at it. A good teacher in invaluable at showing me my weak spots. With very few exceptions, the good players have been at it for several years and work very hard at it. It is well worth a lifetime of dedication as it is a magnificent instrument.

+1.

The responses in this thread are a treasure and resemble a good company of friends around the fireplace sharing opinions.

When i started my DB adventure my friends and my wife never believed that i could continue "the struggle with the beast". Some others claimed that for me, a musician used to play the leading instruments in a band for tree decades, it would be very hard to stand in the back row playing a supporting role. All of them placed bets for the earliest possible time that i would quit.

To my own delight i proved all of them wrong. I'm in the third year in my DB playing and i study with the zeal and vigor of a teenager. I also enjoy my DB gigs much more than everything. It is a wonderful quest in a new world for me and i don't mind if and when i will be in the same competence with my DB as with my saxophones, my clarinets and my trumpets. I study each one of my DB solo lines with the utmost care and when i play it
and hear the audience's response i am again in my twenties.
The voyage is delightful and now, in my 50's i am going to continue it for the rest of my life.
Mike

It all depends on what you mean by competence. It doesn't take long to get the low notes of a blues down, but it takes a lifetime to play Bach flawlessly at 'cello pitch.
Most of us live somewhere in between.
The great thing is having something to work on forever.