OK, I'm not a complete idiot when it comes to all things music theory, I can hack my way through figuring out the notes in bass cleff if given enough time, but this circle of fifths has me stumped.

PLEASE, If you are going to give me the prodigy answers, dont bother, I don't understand them.
You all know, the regular responses:

Its the 12 chromatic pitch...Blah, Blah, Blah
OR
It goes 1 sharp then 2 sharps then 3 sharps
OR
If you read it backwards it's the circle of fourths
ETC...

I have the books that say all of that stuff already. But I just plain do not get it.

I know that it must be important because I have seen it everywhere. My problem is everytime that sit down and tell myself that I am going to figure this out, I just get frustrated and throw the books aside. It's like it is written in a different language.

Can anyone please explain it in a manner that a common man can understand?

Does it have to do with chord progressions?

What key the song is in?

I seriously haven't even found a description of the circle of fifths that clearly explains why it is necessary to know it.

Thanks in advance.

Check out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

If you have any more specific questions email me at mikestrianese@hotmail.com

Check out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

If you have any more specific questions email me at mikestrianese@hotmail.com

Dude,
I have read everything on the first 3 pages of google concerning the circle, as well as the 6 different learn to play the bass books and the 2 music theory books that I have.

None if that stuff makes any sense to me, I thought that I made that part pretty clear.

Also, please don't say "use the search button" I've already done that too.

I just looking for a blue collar common sense description as to what it is and why it's important.

Do you know anything about the major scale? Anything at all? Do you know what a circle is?

Let's start with that stuff.

basically if you start on C the next note above which is G is a 5th apart. so you would then go to D and then A and so on up the neck in 5ths. you can also go backwards down the neck.

basically it helps one figure what notes or chords can or are used in a song or progression.

you can find the notes by looking at this as well: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Circle_of_fifths_deluxe_4.svg

it shows how many sharps or flats are in a scale as well. notice when I said "start on C the next note above which is G is a 5th apart. so you would then go to D and then A and so on up the neck." you can see from the diagram we were moving clockwise and dealing with sharps. So we can see G major scale has one sharp in it. and C has no sharps or flats.

we can also see the relative minors in the middle of the circle. The relative minor to G is Em and how many sharps are in the Em scale?.... one sharp. we can see that from the Circle of 5ths Diagram. you can also check it out on your guitar.

most songs use circle of 5ths its just theory but can help figure things out with it.

Play through the pitches going around the circle (counterclockwise as well) and you will hear strong movements... the circle of fifths/fourths is simply a way of arranging them and refering to them... if you base a chord progression on the cirlce of fifths you will get a strong chord progression such as {i iv VII III VI iidim V i} in a minor key.

One must always remember that music is sound... not notes

the key of c has no sharps or flats.

if you were to add a sharp you would be in the key of G which is either a fifth up from C or a fourth down from C

to find out what key you would be in if you were to add one flat you would go down a fifth putting you at F (the key of F has one flat) or you would go up a fourth.

the circle of fifths is simpley the relationship between the key signatures

lets say there are 3 sharps in the key signature. in order to figure out what key you are in you would start at C and go up 3 fifths. the fifth of c is G, G major has 1 sharp. Go up another fifth, now you're in the key of D, the key of D has 2 sharps. Finally go up another fifth, now you're in the key of A, the key of A has 3 sharps.

Have you read these?

http://www.studybass.com/lessons/harmony/the-circle-of-fifths-diagram/

http://www.studybass.com/lessons/harmony/major-keys-on-the-circle-of-fifths/

Can anyone please explain it in a manner that a common man can understand?

Does it have to do with chord progressions?

What key the song is in?

I seriously haven't even found a description of the circle of fifths that clearly explains why it is necessary to know it.

Thanks in advance.

From the first link I posted:

"The circle of fifths is a diagram used in music theory that helps students memorize and understand the 24 major and minor keys used in music, key relationships, and many chord relationships."

I am on the same journey as well. I look at it and think, "Wow that looks cool, but I have no idea what it means to me."

I work in the medical field and the hardest part of starting is getting lingo down and actually knowing what it means. I really think the commonly used guides to the circle of 5ths is assuming you know the lingo.

I think what he is asking and myself included is can you explain it without the lingo?

Does that help any? Or did I just make things worse? :rolleyes:

Jimmyplaysabass pretty much describes it perfectly.

the circle of fifths is simpley the relationship between the key signatures



It's more then key sig's it's also your strong chord movement of up a fourth or down a fifth. Use it also to cycle thru chords.

It also gives you the relative minors. So if you are playing in C major and move to A minor it will sound like it belongs together. Also if you are soloing in C major you can move into A minor and back because it has all the same notes.

OK, now I feel like a complete moron!

First off, the Fancy Circle Chart that I have is completely fully of letters, numbers, sharps, flats, doodads, curly things, thingamajigs and a bunch of other stuff. All of the books that I have read like the blueprints for a atomic accelerator.

After starting this thread I printed out a basic circle of fifths off of the internet. I took one look at the thing and I was like DUH!
I know the entire thing forwards and backwards, I have been doing this stuff for years. Anybody that knows a major scale know this.

The "learning" material that I have really just complicated things and made my brain think "what the hell?" and shut itself off.

Go ahead and and flame away, I deserve it.


OH, and thanks to everyone for trying to explain it to me.

It also gives you the relative minors. So if you are playing in C major and move to A minor it will sound like it belongs together. Also if you are soloing in C major you can move into A minor and back because it has all the same notes.

Your talking like a guitar player. They do wacky analysis to try and reduce songs to one or two scales. They are also taking advantage of "play any note fast enough it works."

Yes, C major and its relative minor A natural minor have the same notes, BUT the notes you emphasize are different. So you might be using some A minor fingering pattern but your note choices need to be C major if a C major chord or key.

Nortonrider
I know whats wrong - back when i rode a Norton-good bike too-- i was confused ,,Then i got a Harley and it all went away-----lol

Do yourself a favor and take some music lessons from someone who understands it and can explain it to you. Learn the definitions of major and minor scales, and which tones in the scales form chords. The circle of fifths will start to make sense after you learn those basics, but I don't think it will make much sense without that knowledge. Don't despair and stick with it, your playing will improve as you learn these concepts. Regards.

One must always remember that music is sound... not notes

how about both? and I believe there are also much more elements to music than the vague word "sound"

Cycles in music seems to go down so........
Try this: play 5 descending notes all the time ,you'll have your cycle of fifths by going through your flats then going to your sharps.

Here is the sequence:
C-B-A-G-F
F-E-D-C-Bb
Bb-A-G-F-Eb etc.


I hope this will make sense to you,


Sly

You know, If just one of my books would have had something like:
1-5
root-fifth
or even
power chord

in its description of the circle, It would have been a no brainer. That is bread and butter stuff right there. fifths, fourths, I got that part down and have had it for quite some time.

now if I can just decypher the key signature segment (this has 3 sharps then you add 2 more sharps, etc...), I will be a happy man.

Thanks again.

i thought that the circle of 5ths was mainly to show a common "mood" change between identical intervals. as in

two different sets of notes with identical intervals, share a common "feeling"

I wouldn't say I even have the circle of fifths memorized, but I definitely know what it is. If you threw a key signature at me, showed me a bunch of flats and said "NAME IT!" I probably would hesitate before answering, and my answer would be based more on knowledge i got from playing piano and trombone, and not the circle of fifths.

The circle of fifths is, in my opinion, simply a way of saying that if you start on C and go up a fifth, then go up another fifth...you will hit every single note in the diatonic scale before you hit C again. w00t.

Then if you make a circle diagram out of this nifty piece of info, with C at the 12 o'clock position, and then go to the right, each key signature will have one more sharp in it than the previous one, until you hit 7 sharps because that's all you can possibly have.

If you go to the left, each key signature has one more flat than the previous one, until you hit 7, which is all you can possibly have!

That's about all I ever got out of it, and I think that's about all you really need to get out of it. Just play the bass line to "I Will Survive," and if it makes sense musically for the first four bars, then you have the circle of fifths down.

Your talking like a guitar player. They do wacky analysis to try and reduce songs to one or two scales. They are also taking advantage of "play any note fast enough it works."

Yes, C major and its relative minor A natural minor have the same notes, BUT the notes you emphasize are different. So you might be using some A minor fingering pattern but your note choices need to be C major if a C major chord or key.

No, he is not talking like a guitar player. The point of knowing this stuff is so as a player you are able to seamlessly move in and out of any key and make it "fit" and sound good while doing so. Of course the emphasis on certain notes is different. I didn't get any hint from his post that he was trying to over simplify things. It actually gets much more confusing rather than simple.

Here's what I take away from the circle:

It's a pictorial representation of tone/key movement.

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, look here:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=514818 Thank you Cameronj, this is great!

Pick one of the Major scales
Move one position counter clockwise.
Now, moving clockwise without altering any scale tones,
the next 3 Major and the next 4 minor name the triads in the original Major scale you chose.

Example: F Major
1 position counterclockwise is Bb
In the F Major scale you will find a Bb Major triad, F Major triad and a C Major triad.
There's a G minor triad, D minor triad, A minor triad and an E minor triad.

This is the same for 7th chords with 2 exceptions:
The furthest clockwise on the Major ring would have a flat 7th to give you the dominant,
and the furthest clockwise on the minor ring would have a flat 5th and seventh to give you a half-diminished.

Next, the circle shows one way to modulate (change keys) from one Major key to a 'near by' Major key.
A common progression in Jazz is the 2-5-1 (usually written ii7-V7-I7 meaning "the second degree of a Major scale, which is a minor chord - the fifth degree of a Major scale, which is a Dominant chord - the first degree of a Major scale, which is a Major chord").

The 2 chord implies movement to the 5 which moves to the 1 which implies rest. If you're modulating to another key, you'll postpone the 1 chord.

Stay with me here...
so, if you play a 2-5 and change the 5 to a 2 it modulates to another key. You can go around the circle, counter clockwise by doing this.

Example:
In the key of F Major, the 2-5 would be
G-7 (read 'G minor 7) - C7.
G Bb D F - C E G Bb
Change the C7 to a minor by flatting the third degreee of the chord. C Eb G Bb which is the 2 chord in the key of Bb Major.
C Eb G Bb - F A C Eb (C-7 - F7) is the 2 - 5 chord progression in Bb Major.

Make the F7 (the 5 chord) minor by flatting the 3rd degree of the chord. F Ab C Eb. This is the 2 chord in Eb Major.
F-7 - Bb7 is the 2-5 in the key of Eb Major.

Keep doing this and you'll go counter clockwise around the entire circle.
Near the bottom, you'll need to re-name the chords and scales to their enharmonic name.

If this is really confusing you, take it to a piano. It's the best visual representation there is for this kind of thing.

If I can help further, please PM me.

Whew! Thank you Tony King!

The reason for the circle is the series of intervals it takes to make a major scale, which is whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step.

Sit down at a piano and start on C and these are all white notes; go up to G and play the same intervals and you are forced to include an F#; in D you need an F# and a C# etc.

Going down from C to F, you need a Bb to make the intervals work; start on a Bb and you need a Bb and an Eb; etc.

OK, now I feel like a complete moron!

First off, the Fancy Circle Chart that I have is completely fully of letters, numbers, sharps, flats, doodads, curly things, thingamajigs and a bunch of other stuff. All of the books that I have read like the blueprints for a atomic accelerator.

After starting this thread I printed out a basic circle of fifths off of the internet. I took one look at the thing and I was like DUH!
I know the entire thing forwards and backwards, I have been doing this stuff for years. Anybody that knows a major scale know this.

The "learning" material that I have really just complicated things and made my brain think "what the hell?" and shut itself off.

Go ahead and and flame away, I deserve it.


OH, and thanks to everyone for trying to explain it to me.

Dude, I feel your pain. Most of music theory reads like the back page of a Chinese menu to me. Maybe there is someone near you that can show you? I know I learn better when I am physically shown something. Sometimes 3 or 4 times!

So rest assured, you are not alone.

I guess I see it as having 2 basic functions:

1.) helps you memorize the number of sharps/flats for each key
2.) helps you memorize the V-I or I-IV chord movement, which is probably the most common chord movement in western music. It also helps you see the logic of other common chord movements,. (for example, a vi-ii-V-I is basically a trip around part of the circle)