How the hell do you read these things?

I'm gonna have to say "easy".

Each line is a string, and each # is a fret on that string. Some people use a system of letters, or something, below those lines to indicate note length. E for eighth note, S for sixteenth, Q for quarter, etc... Other than that, just listen to the song and note it yourself.

[/feedtroll]

Oh ok! i can get that!

So when they have words to a song with a note (I am suspecting NOT a chord...?) over it, that basically means you have to already know the song and play the rhythm by ear?

Im gonna guess probably on that one.

also, *sorry i am used to saxophone and piano... no frets there*

Can you transpose, for lack of better word, a Guitar melody or tabs, into Bass? Does that make any sense?

How the hell do you read these things?

This is the best post ever.

Can you transpose, for lack of better word, a Guitar melody or tabs, into Bass? Does that make any sense?

I do it all the time. If something is in EADGBE or something, its pretty easy. Regular 6 string bass tuning would put it into EADGCF, so just take all the numbers on the B and high E string and subtract 2 (number of semitones you've "tuned up"). After that, just move the #s around (add 5 when moving to the next lower string, subtract 5 when going the other way) until you get it into 4 or 5 or however many strings you have on the bass.

Say you move everything so its all on the strings EADG and C, theres your 5 string. If you play it it will be down an octave (or if you tune BEADG, an octave and a 5th [not sure on the 5th part]).

Personally I love taking early Sabbath riffs and transposing them so that I can play them and use my open 5th string as the lowest note.

Has this person got a six string bass though? If theyve tnever played any instrument that has frets then i think there going to be confused by what you wrote

also, *sorry i am used to saxophone and piano... no frets there*

Can you transpose, for lack of better word, a Guitar melody or tabs, into Bass? Does that make any sense?

No offense, but if you're used to sax and piano, you're presumably used to reading music (both treble clef and bass clef), right? So why even bother with tab? Why not just use standard notation?

Trust- You got it nailed on the head.... Totally lost at this! and I have a 4 string Bass.

RL- Because when i learn a new instrument i want to learn everything about the instrument. That includes being able to read any music that comes my way... I have the time so why not learn to read tabs?

And i am not extremely strong in my bass-clef reading yet...

RL- Because when i learn a new instrument i want to learn everything about the instrument. That includes being able to read any music that comes my way... I have the time so why not learn to read tabs?

Tabs are not really important IMO, so your time would be better spent working on your ear and brushing up on bass clef. Seriously. Tab is not a skill a bass player really needs. It is not an important component of bass playing that every well-rounded bassist needs to be on top of. You will virtually never be in a serious or even semiserious situation where you will be expected to read tabs. You're not missing anything of true importance by not spending time on tab.

There currently is a big thread on this on the first or second page of this forum.

I'm not saying tab can't ever be useful anywhere at any time to anybody. At one level, anything that ever helps anybody at all is good to an extent. But as an aid to your development as a bass player, it's effectively a dead end. It might take you a little ways down the road, but not that far, and not for that long. In terms of focusing on what will do you the most good down the line, assuming you want to keep playing and get better, tab should really not be a high priority. If you're not where you want to be with bass clef, working to get better on that (without, of course, neglecting your ear and physical technique and all that) is likely to benefit you far, FAR more than spending time trying to get fluent on tab. THAT's probably what you would get more out of working on, whether its value seems apparent or not.

But if you want to do tab, it's not that hard. It's just a visual representation of the strings and where you put your fingers. Look, it's no skin off my nose or anyone else's if you want to spend time on tab, and it won't harm you just to know it, but the best advice I can give you, as someone who's been doing this for a while, is that your efforts are better focused elsewhere. Just my $0.02.

...but on the contrary, you can be just as good or even better as the people who don't learn TABs and write it off. Key word being "can be".

...but on the contrary, you can be just as good or even better as the people who don't learn TABs and write it off. Key word being "can be".

If you are, it's unlikely to be because of tabs. Besides, the point is not to compete against other people--who knows what their thing is? It doesn't really matter much if A uses tabs and is slightly better than B who doesn't; B could be totally talentless or unmotivated. The point is, what approach is going to allow A to progress best? The idea is to assess what you yourself could do with one approach versus what you yourself could do with another one. If there's any competition, you're competing with yourself.

That is, would I, as a bassist and a musician, progress more and do better relying on tabs, or would I progress more and do better if I work on reading traditional notation and developing my ear? If I can read standard and have a decent ear, how likely is it that tab might add much knowledge to what I've got? (Not very.) If I can only read tabs, is being able to read standard notation gonna add much knowledge to what I've got? (Yes, though seemingly not everybody needs or wants that added knowledge.)

get off my website

Nothing wrong with learning tab especially cause it only takes all of 10 minutes to be proficient at reading them....

It does have it uses.... If your ears aren't all that developed and you need to learn a cover for practice tomorrow you'll be able to find a tab...but finding sheet music without purchasing a whole book will likely be impossible. Of course if your good enough you can look up the chords and then try to transcribe the line (or just transcribe it from scratch) if you are looking to learn something from it.

The reason tab gets a bad rap around here is cause its the "easy way" you can learn a song in all of 20 minutes without understanding what you are playing (because tab doesn't show rhythm and it doesn't so pitch in an easy to comprehend way), also as long as you rely on the tab your ears don't get better (and you could argue they even get worse from playing bad tabs).

The veterans around here don't understand why you would want to do such a thing (since they grew up without tabs and had to use their ears) and the youngsters don't want to sacrifice convince and speed when it comes to learning material.

i found tabs useful when i started, mainly because it gave me a chance of just getting used to moving fingers around and to play along to my favourite songs theres nothing better than when uve first got a new instrument you cant play and then you learn a part of a song. i found it inspired me to carry on. after i did that i started to look at what notes i was playing and started to learn scales, i found it much more fun that way than just been given a scale or some sheet music and as far as im concerned i play bass to have fun im not really bothered if im the best or not

I have a decent ear already, and am working with Piano on that through my lessons. I am not as good as i would like to be in bass clef, but that is also getting worked on in piano.

I figured if i learn to read tabs, it won't hurt me. It may not help me, but the more knowledge you obtain the better...

I am not saying that i will rely on only tabs or even mostly tabs. But I would like to know that i could learn them.

I don't...complete waste of time.
I find it easy to do, but have never seen it "in the real world".

There seems to be a bunch of good sites:

http://www.google.ca/search?q=how+to+read+tab

Note that with bass tabs you usually only see 4 or 5 lines, and the tuning will be listed somewhere. If its not it will be EADG or BEADG usually.

How the hell do you read these things?

I don't. I prefer traditional music notation. Sorry, can't help you on this one. Please try to learn traditional notation, instead. Just my two cents...

Tabs are not really important IMO, so your time would be better spent working on your ear and brushing up on bass clef. Seriously. Tab is not a skill a bass player really needs. It is not an important component of bass playing that every well-rounded bassist needs to be on top of. You will virtually never be in a serious or even semiserious situation where you will be expected to read tabs. You're not missing anything of true importance by not spending time on tab.

There currently is a big thread on this on the first or second page of this forum.

I'm not saying tab can't ever be useful anywhere at any time to anybody. At one level, anything that ever helps anybody at all is good to an extent. But as an aid to your development as a bass player, it's effectively a dead end. It might take you a little ways down the road, but not that far, and not for that long. In terms of focusing on what will do you the most good down the line, assuming you want to keep playing and get better, tab should really not be a high priority. If you're not where you want to be with bass clef, working to get better on that (without, of course, neglecting your ear and physical technique and all that) is likely to benefit you far, FAR more than spending time trying to get fluent on tab. THAT's probably what you would get more out of working on, whether its value seems apparent or not.

But if you want to do tab, it's not that hard. It's just a visual representation of the strings and where you put your fingers. Look, it's no skin off my nose or anyone else's if you want to spend time on tab, and it won't harm you just to know it, but the best advice I can give you, as someone who's been doing this for a while, is that your efforts are better focused elsewhere. Just my $0.02.

You're rediculous. Learning tabs is totally useful. Show me a place where I can find all of the songs I want to learn how to play written out in standard notation for free. There isn't one. Tabs are free, and that's the only reason I use them. I'm young and not entirely financially stable, so tabs are awesome for me.

You're rediculous. Learning tabs is totally useful. Show me a place where I can find all of the songs I want to learn how to play written out in standard notation for free. There isn't one. Tabs are free, and that's the only reason I use them. I'm young and not entirely financially stable, so tabs are awesome for me.

Sorry, none of this refutes what I said. Did you read the whole thing? I allowed that tabs have some use, but pointed out that they're a dead end. Which they are, beyond question. From a financial point of view, free is indeed great (hey, I use Linux at home, I get the value of free), but from any kind of serious learning perspective, tabs don't cut it. That's just how it is. You can be defensive about it, or you can understand it and deal with it.

You're rediculous. Learning tabs is totally useful. Show me a place where I can find all of the songs I want to learn how to play written out in standard notation for free.

Using your ear? That develops you musically too - it's called ear training. Then you transcribe them using standard notation. That builds your familiarity with universal notation.

As a move toward being a better bassist this is far preferable to using a lot of online TAB, which is often ridiculously wrong anyway.

I have a decent ear already, and am working with Piano on that through my lessons. I am not as good as i would like to be in bass clef, but that is also getting worked on in piano.

I figured if i learn to read tabs, it won't hurt me. It may not help me, but the more knowledge you obtain the better...

I am not saying that i will rely on only tabs or even mostly tabs. But I would like to know that i could learn them.

The problem is that tab doesn't actually offer much in the way of "knowledge." As I mentioned, a decent player who has a decent ear and can deal at some level with standard notation adds basically nothing to his/her store of knowledge by learning tab; however, a strictly-by-tabs player who starts working on ear training and learning standard notation is adding a considerable amount to his/her store of knowledge.

Certainly you "could" learn tab if you wanted to. Takes probably 10-15 minutes. I guess my point is less that you shouldn't know tab--hell, even I know it, and I never use it--than that spending much time on tab beyond the minimal amount of time required to figure out what it's about (i.e., 10-15 minutes) is time that could be FAR more usefully spent doing something else. Such as training your ear, as greenboy points out. Or learning standard notation. Or getting into a little harmony.

Listen, I get the appeal of tab. I'm just telling you, if you want to progress with the bass, tab won't get you very far at all.

You're rediculous. Learning tabs is totally useful. Show me a place where I can find all of the songs I want to learn how to play written out in standard notation for free. There isn't one. Tabs are free, and that's the only reason I use them. I'm young and not entirely financially stable, so tabs are awesome for me.

Can you show me a place where tablature is written out CORRECTLY for free? Doubt it. Remember that in this case, as is the case with most cases, you get what you pay for.

OR you could just develop your ear and learn the songs off the CD like we used to do in the olden days of analog TV with 6 channels tops. Raise your hand if you got white streaks on your vinyl records because that's where the hardest part of the tune was, and you kept listening to it over and over and over trying to figure it out... :D

If you could find me Electric Wizard's album "Come My Fanatics..." in standard notation (book, free, whatever) :D

Actually I can't even find the tab for it LOL :o

get off my website

HAHAHA

I was half expecting this thread to explode from disdain for a moment there :p

They're good for learning songs quickly (I'll use them if it's a "can you come fill in this spot tomorrow night?" situation) but otherwise I gain no insight into a song from them, so see them as a wee bit pointless for learning your instrument.

It's a spectator sport reading the debate from this though :D *grabs the nibbles*

Can you show me a place where tablature is written out CORRECTLY for free? Doubt it. Remember that in this case, as is the case with most cases, you get what you pay for.

OR you could just develop your ear and learn the songs off the CD like we used to do in the olden days of analog TV with 6 channels tops. Raise your hand if you got white streaks on your vinyl records because that's where the hardest part of the tune was, and you kept listening to it over and over and over trying to figure it out... :D

Good points. And if I had a dime for all the mistakes in tabs and even in basic chord names listed above lyrics...

I can't raise my hand on the vinyl thing, but I surely must have burned some grooves, so to speak, into my CD copy of Weather Report's "Heavy Weather" some years ago. And I know learning by CD is infinitely easier to cue up/go back than vinyl...

Raise your hand if you got white streaks on your vinyl records because that's where the hardest part of the tune was, and you kept listening to it over and over and over trying to figure it out... :D

<Raises hand> ...Thing is, some of those really hard ones that are masked in a muffled mix, I STILL have my doubts about! ; }

But it sure did train my ear well enough to get the giggles at so many of the TAB transcriptions I've seen - simply horrendous! And for such easy material!

<Raises hand> ...Thing is, some of those really hard ones that are masked in a muffled mix, I STILL have my doubts about! ; }

But it sure did train my ear well enough to get the giggles at so many of the TAB transcriptions I've seen - simply horrendous! And for such easy material!

VERY WELL PUT. :D

<Raises hand> ...Thing is, some of those really hard ones that are masked in a muffled mix, I STILL have my doubts about! ; }

But it sure did train my ear well enough to get the giggles at so many of the TAB transcriptions I've seen - simply horrendous! And for such easy material!

+10 Also funny how when you work to get an answer to something you usually end up learning even more than original question. When someone is given an answer or easily obtain the don't seem to remember the answer for long or have no clue why its the answer.

Um... I regard 'standard' notation and tablature as equal.
Really.
Try to argue they are not.

Both use a symbol to tell you what note to play.
You can still train the ear & you can still learn theory.

Now, tablature only fails when...

Um... I regard 'standard' notation and tablature as equal.
Really.
Try to argue they are not.

Both use a symbol to tell you what note to play.
You can still train the ear & you can still learn theory.

Now, tablature only fails when...

They're not equal. Really. The argument has already been made, and won. Repeatedly. In this very forum. I'm not blowing you off, but I suggest you read some of those other threads, as it would be a waste of bandwidth to recapitulate them in full.

Tab doesn't tell you what note to play. It tells you where to put your fingers. Not the same thing.

Theory is hard (not impossible) to learn if you don't know what note you're playing.

Um... I regard 'standard' notation and tablature as equal.
Really.
Try to argue they are not.

Both use a symbol to tell you what note to play.
You can still train the ear & you can still learn theory.

Now, tablature only fails when...

Ok.

Standard notation is transferrable to any other musical instrument in which people write standard notation for it. That, in my experience, includes every musicial instrument made, including voice. Tab? Only and narrowly applicable to guitars and basses, and depending on the tuning, not even all of those.

That is just one difference that shows tabs and standard notation are not equal. Not even close, sorry to say.

Using your ear? That develops you musically too - it's called ear training. Then you transcribe them using standard notation. That builds your familiarity with universal notation..

If you are using your ear to learn songs, what difference does it make if you write it down in standard notation or tab?

When I learn by ear, I commit to memory, without ever writing things down. I guess I am wrong to both groups. Oh well, I'll just have to find a way to live with myself.

If you are using your ear to learn songs, what difference does it make if you write it down in standard notation or tab?

When I learn by ear, I commit to memory, without ever writing things down. I guess I am wrong to both groups. Oh well, I'll just have to find a way to live with myself.

To you playing by yourself, perhaps no difference. But suppose you wanted to hand somebody that part to double you. Are you gonna hand a synth player a bass tab? No. Or suppose you want to write a totally different part for somebody to play. Are you gonna hand a sax player a tab, or ask a singer to sing a tab? No and no. Yes, you could sit there and play the part over and over again until they get it, but sometimes you don't want to spend the time, or have it to spend. That's what writing music is for.

The point of SN is that it's portable--portable across instruments, portable across different tunings of the same instrument. As an example, I work a lot with a keyboard player. He doesn't play a lick of bass guitar, but if there's a line he needs me to play note for note, he writes it out. Not tab, SN. That way I can play it on the gig or at the session without rehearsal, without having to hear him play it to me. As another example, I play 6-string bass, but I tune it BEADGB instead of the more common BEADGC. This means that any 6-string tab written for 6-string that uses the high string and assumes a BEADGC tuning would be wrong for me--it would actually cause mistakes. It would have to be rewritten, by me or someone else, to work. Yet SN would not. That is a huge advantage.

But who on earth said it was "wrong" to keep things in memory? I can't see a single person on here who said that. It's a perfectly good way to learn stuff. The point is, when you do need to use written means, standard notation is a vastly better tool than tab. No one said don't memorize stuff you learn by ear. Sheesh.

I don't see how new guys (this guy is a pretty decent musician by the sounds of it so it doesn't apply to him) are supposed to learn to use their ears without being taught how to play anything. I'd be twice as crap at doing stuff by ear now if it weren't from learning tabs and becoming familiar with certain patterns etc. Standard notation is better like Richard said, but for new guys it's daunting, in one of the few bass lessons I ever had I was taught it but I never really got it, it's not something I really need cos I play in standard tuning and it just stopped me from learning my instrument.

Their quality can be dreadful, but as your ear develops due to playing more and learning more tunes, you can start to make up for these mistakes which can be kinda interesting.

Tabs helped alot with my sense of rhythm too, my ear for rhythm is pretty good now because of it cos you have no real guide for timing in tabs most of the time, didn't realise that the letters underneath corresponded to note lengths till now. It's almost kinda fun to fill in the little gaps sometimes.

To be honest I'm still not good enough to play anything I want to by listening to it, and by looking at even some of the worst tabs about it gives me some direction of which I can use to work out even entire complex bas parts, just cos of some little weird note thrown in I wouldn't have worked out even if I'd played it myself due to the way it fits with the song.

.-. . .- -.. .. -. --. / - .- -... / .. ... / .-.. .. -.- . / ..- ... .. -. --. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . / - --- / .-. . .- -.. / - .... . / -. . .-- ... .--. .- .--. . .-. / .. -- .... ---

morse code? nerd ;)

If you are using your ear to learn songs, what difference does it make if you write it down in standard notation or tab? When I learn by ear, I commit to memory, without ever writing things down. I guess I am wrong to both groups. Oh well, I'll just have to find a way to live with myself.

Hey, I don't personally care what you use. But if I write part of a tune down for all or some of the instruments, or just for the bass part, or certain chunks of it, I can go back to it years or even decades afterwards and refresh myself just by looking at the parts - even to a great extent without the instrument in my hand. I can sing the parts for that matter or play them on a sax. The notation tells me what the notes, chords, and rhythmic values are even if I can't recall the song or where it came from.

No way I'm gonna ride a TAB bike-with-training-wheels when I know how much better it feels to romp around on a bike without them.

They're not equal. Really. The argument has already been made, and won. Repeatedly. In this very forum. I'm not blowing you off, but I suggest you read some of those other threads, as it would be a waste of bandwidth to recapitulate them in full.:eyebrow:
There is always a different aspect not discussed. Or the proponents that held my position failed in conveying their side.

1)Tab doesn't tell you what note to play. It tells you where to put your fingers. Not the same thing.
2)Theory is hard (not impossible) to learn if you don't know what note you're playing.
1) :eyebrow: A notation tells you where to place your fingers in the same damn way a tab does.
------
------
------
-2----

or: F#/Gb
_________
_________
_________
_________
_________
P#

or: F#/Gb

2) That's not the argument at hand (see#1)

Standard notation is transferrable to any other musical instrument in which people write standard notation for it. That, in my experience, includes every musicial instrument made, including voice. And that is only possible by SN? No. Does it make it easier. Well, yes.
You probably should talk to all those "learn by ear" disciples here.

First off, for the record, i am a she not a "him" (and thanks btw)

here is a direct question then. Is it really so bad spending the "10-15 minutes" that it will take me to learn tabs? I figure that there are so many things that i could be doing for the 10-15 minutes that i would spend learning the tabs (such as reading these forums... :-P) Is it going to hurt me to take some time and learn them?

Do it if you want. I did. That's how I found out so many online tabs were wrong ; }

It certainly won't keep you from doing other things whenever you wish.

Um... I regard 'standard' notation and tablature as equal.
Really.
Try to argue they are not.

Both use a symbol to tell you what note to play.
You can still train the ear & you can still learn theory.

Now, tablature only fails when...

Tablature always fails when you don't have a recording to reference.

Try to argue that it doesn't.

I think the more we talk about it the more obvious it becomes that tabs are a far less precise form of bass/guitar notation. It is mainly aiming to amateur and hobbyist bass/guitar players who want to learn some songs or riffs even in a less then accurate form. But if you are serious about your music and your instrument learn standard notation. I believe it is difficult to study harmony and theory with tabs and those are essentials aspects to learn as well as how to play the bass IMO,

Sly

Ok, question:
And take in consideration i have no intention of EVER playing in front of people. this is just for me.

So, if i know a song really well, lets say Desperado by the eagles. And i want to learn the bass part to it, can't i just read the tabs since i already know the rhythm well? i don't understand why that would be a problem... Basically that is what i do anyways with a song i know well even if it is written in standard notation.

Hey,

I found TAB to be quite a good learning tool. When I was first learning guitar I would buy the Hal Leonard books (which had the TAB below the standard notation), maybe I was the exception to the rule but correlating the two significantly helped my theory knowledge.

Now I learn stuff by ear probably 95% of the time but if the TAB is there I will incorporate it.

That being said, TAB on the net is almost 100% wrong which is why I don't bother with it. Furthermore, since it is SO bad, I think it is actually detrimental to a beginner bass player who doesn't yet have the ear to "filter the crap" :). However, official TAB publications can't really hurt IMO, as long as it is used as a stepping stone (training wheels) and not the be all, end all.

Later
Rob

Trust- You got it nailed on the head.... Totally lost at this! and I have a 4 string Bass.

RL- Because when i learn a new instrument i want to learn everything about the instrument. That includes being able to read any music that comes my way... I have the time so why not learn to read tabs?

The reason tabs exist is there's nothing to learn. It's 4 lines representing the strings (lowest is at the bottom) with numbers representing the frets. There you go. 5 or 6 lines means it's "written" for 5 or string bass.

Possibly the most important thing when learning an instrument is to transcribe, ie pick things up by ear. Do that instead of relying on tabs and you'll get much MUCH better. Tabs are really a last resort thing and many aren't even accurate.

:eyebrow:
1) :eyebrow: A notation tells you where to place your fingers in the same damn way a tab does.
------
------
------
-2----

or: F#/Gb
_________
_________
_________
_________
_________
P#

or: F#/Gb



No, it does not. Not even close. And I'm sorry, but if you don't understand that, you don't really understand the issue well enough. The point of notation is precisely that it does NOT tell you exactly where to put your fingers unless that level of specificity is desired (in which case it's fairly easily done). It tells you what note you're expected to produce, regardless of whether you tune your bass to concert pitch, a whole step low, in 4ths, in 5ths, whether you play a 4 string or a 5 string or a 6 string. That's important and valuable. Especially on an instrument like the bass, one of the beauties of which is that there is often more than one way to finger a passage.

Ok, question:
And take in consideration i have no intention of EVER playing in front of people. this is just for me.

So, if i know a song really well, lets say Desperado by the eagles. And i want to learn the bass part to it, can't i just read the tabs since i already know the rhythm well? i don't understand why that would be a problem... Basically that is what i do anyways with a song i know well even if it is written in standard notation.

It won't hurt you. It just won't help you very much. It depends on what you want to do and on what your ambitions are.

And that is only possible by SN? No. Does it make it easier. Well, yes.
You probably should talk to all those "learn by ear" disciples here.

Straw man argument, I'm afraid. You won't find a single experienced player here arguing against the value of using your ear. So just throw that one out, it's a nonstarter. We're talking about the two methods of writing.

The point is that SN is portable across instruments, whereas tab is of no value at all for communicating with players of other instruments. It's not even any good for communicating with players of your own instrument who don't tune the same way you do (I gave an example above, but there are others).

So, between the two writing methods, tab and SN (leaving the ear out of it for reasons just explained), yes, it's only possible with SN, because it's not possible with tab.

Ok, question:
And take in consideration i have no intention of EVER playing in front of people. this is just for me.

So, if i know a song really well, lets say Desperado by the eagles. And i want to learn the bass part to it, can't i just read the tabs since i already know the rhythm well? i don't understand why that would be a problem... Basically that is what i do anyways with a song i know well even if it is written in standard notation.

I would say a lot of people start of thinking they are never going to go beyond playing along with records in their basements...I sure did. But a few months in, maybe a few years in, maybe after 4 years of not playing at all and your bass collecting dust the bug will bite you and you'll want to go join a band and jam and all that stuff.

Like I said before learning to read tab will take all of a nights worth of work and it certainly won't hurt you...However like all a lot of people pointed out down the road will probably look back and say "if only I learned all those songs by ear so I would have some clue what my guitarist is playing right now" or "if only I could read standard notation so that I could get this gig"

Also the important thing note about tab and rhythm is; yes tabs force you to have a good ear for rhythm but you won't really know what rhythm your playing, just what the over all line sounds like. You could be playing tripplets all the time but when someone asks you to play 1 you would be dumbfounded.

For the record I started by playing tabs then I learned notation (had to for school bands). I still use tabs when I need to learn a song real fast or I feel lazy. My ears aren't too good but they are getting better the less I use tabs (using chord charts instead is a good stepping stone) and the more I learn to trust my ears.

PS. I find songs like desperado very hard to follow in tab form (very easy to get lost). If you know a little music theory it would be much easier to follow a chord chart for it http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/e/eagles/desperado_crd.htm. He's just playing the roots of the chords with some leading tones on occasion.

And that is only possible by SN? No. Does it make it easier. Well, yes.
You probably should talk to all those "learn by ear" disciples here.

Sure, you can "invent the wheel" and replace SN all you want, and kudos to that perhaps, but SN is much more universal and applicable to every other instrument. As far as a standardization of a musical notation goes, SN is it, and tab isn't. I'm not making up these things. I'm just observing what I see and what I've experienced.

I have a music degree (and who care, really), but the main point is I am a learn by ear disciple, as you call it. I was a musician, and picking out TV theme songs (not just the melodies) two decades before I got my music degree- IE- the degree didn't make me a musician. It merely formalized it on paper.

No other instrument but guitars and basses use tab for guitars and basses. Give those tabs to anyone on any other instrument who is not intimately familiar with a guitar or bass fretboard and its tuning, and that individual is going to be left scratching their heads wondering what they are supposed to do with it. Not so with SN.

I think the development of the ear is a critical thing, but my position on tab is that if you're going to take the time to become fluent with tab, and become comfortable with it, IMO, that time is better spent just learning SN instead. At the very beginning, the learning curves are for all reasonable intents and purposes about the same- both will be difficult. But in the long run... ...you'll be glad you err-ed on the side of SN.

We think the world is so filled with guitarists and bassists when we spend so much time here, so its predicatable to be all for tabs, but the reality is that a much larger musical world out there has no use for tabs. At all. And if you ever decide to play something other than a guitar or bass, and want to read something off the page, those tabs skills don't translate to piano, sax, vocals, etc... but being comfortable with SN does.

Fine. Learn tabs. Learn the Nashville system. But don't do those things in lieu of learning SN. There is SO MUCH bang-for-the-buck for the time spent with it.

This will be an endless debate here on TB because there is too many players's levels.

The hobbyist and amateur bass player will be perfect with tabs (even if they might be wrong) because it doesn't take much effort AND practicing and will get a certain result with them.

The pro is using SN because it is the language use among professional musicians and is the way to improve all aspects needed to become a great musician and bass player.

A last thought: If tabs are written by people who don't read SN and are not really well educated in music then : NO WONDER WHY TABS ARE LESS THEN ACCURATE IMHO.

That doesn't mean that all SN are good. I've seen many transcriptions in books and mags with errors but they are much closer to the original then tabs.

So for the serious aspiring bass player do yourself a favor and learn SN ASAP,

Sly

We think the world is so filled with guitarists and bassists when we spend so much time here, so its predicatable to be all for tabs, but the reality is that a much larger musical world out there has no use for tabs. At all. And if you ever decide to play something other than a guitar or bass, and want to read something off the page, those tabs skills don't translate to piano, sax, vocals, etc... but being comfortable with SN does.

Fine. Learn tabs. Learn the Nashville system. But don't do those things in lieu of learning SN. There is SO MUCH bang-for-the-buck for the time spent with it.

+1

At the very beginning, the learning curves are for all reasonable intents and purposes about the same- both will be difficult.

I'm very much in favour of SN being the superior form, but tab is far easier for a beginner since it's pretty much self explanatory, standard notation isn't. All you have to know to use tabs is to be familiar with what all of your strings are, and then start getting used to playing frets without having to look down at your board all the time. Although with SN you need to learn all the notes on the bass clef (can't remember how it's written when you get up really high but I can imagine it's pretty painful to learn), all the note symbols, all the rest symbols, all other related symbols and various latin words you find on SN, AND you also have to become familiar not with simple fret numbers, but with learning what all the notes of those frets for all strings. It's a much more thorough approach to learning music, but I see it as a bit of a constraint on developing technique when you have such an overwhelming amount of academic stuff to learn, especially given that your probably gonna go on to learning theory if your taking this approach too.

I don't really see tab as a way of playing along to music though, I see it as a way way of writing songs in a simple way to learn them gradually bit by bit. Stuff like weird tunings etc is something you'll want to do when you become a little more used to playing, and as such probably have less use for tab anyway. Also when it comes to fingering preferences the same applies, when you develop those preferences you can easily adapt tablature too. Tab to me is just a beginners form of notation, and I wouldn't dream of suggesting to someone that they should learn to read music before they'd played a good couple of years, all depending on the specifics of that persons progress and aspirations and such.

Having written out tabs for people and a few sites before I can easily say that it isn't exactly "easy" either, it's still a pretty enduring affair. Also I wouldn't say practising gets a "certain" result with them either, I've made a perfect adaptation of more tabs then I care to remember by using my ear.

Tabs are a simplified version of music which is not concerned with duration of notes etc.. I use them because my reading of bass clef is not strong. What I do is use the tabs to get a rough idea of the song. Then I listen and try to figure out where the tab is different from the actual song.

But I am a lowly beginner on the bass so i degress

You're rediculous. Learning tabs is totally useful. Show me a place where I can find all of the songs I want to learn how to play written out in standard notation for free.

Using your ear? That develops you musically too - it's called ear training. Then you transcribe them using standard notation.

If you are using your ear to learn songs, what difference does it make if you write it down in standard notation or tab?

suppose you wanted to hand somebody that part to double you. Are you gonna hand a synth player a bass tab? No.

So, the bass player should forget tab, learn everything by ear, and write it in standard notation so that he/she can communicate with the synth player. At this point, why doesn't the synth player simply learn it by ear?

If you simply memorize the fingerboard, Tab and notation are equally "easy" to read.

Personally, it takes me far less time to find "E flat" on a neck than to find this:

----------
----------
----6----
----------

but I'm going on 20 years of playing...

So, the bass player should forget tab, learn everything by ear, and write it in standard notation so that he/she can communicate with the synth player. At this point, why doesn't the synth player simply learn it by ear?

Good synth players CAN. And do.

Fine. Learn tabs. Learn the Nashville system. But don't do those things in lieu of learning SN. There is SO MUCH bang-for-the-buck for the time spent with it.

I use the Nashville system as an introduction to SN for my students. The ONLY time I ever use tab is to show a particular fingering on an exercise. NEVER for real music.

So, the bass player should forget tab, learn everything by ear, and write it in standard notation so that he/she can communicate with the synth player. At this point, why doesn't the synth player simply learn it by ear?

No, not necessarily learn "everything" by ear. The bass player can also learn things by reading standard notation. The synth player might hand YOU a line to play.

I can't believe you even have to ask that last question. Sure, a good synth player could do that, and if you have the time and the patience, great, but the point of writing things is TO SAVE TIME, as well as to minimize error. The synth player can read it down instead of listening to you play it over and over again. You might as well ask why we have books. Why not ask the author to just tell you the story verbally word by word? That would work, and if you both have the time it would be great, but in the real world you don't always have the time.

but I see it as a bit of a constraint on developing technique when you have such an overwhelming amount of academic stuff to learn, especially given that your probably gonna go on to learning theory if your taking this approach too.

[snip]

and I wouldn't dream of suggesting to someone that they should learn to read music before they'd played a good couple of years, all depending on the specifics of that persons progress and aspirations and such.

Standard notation is really no more academic than learning the alphabet is. It isn't that overwhelming, and people shouldn't fear it the way they do. Just learning where the notes are is the equivalent of elementary school spelling. You start with the equivalent of "cat" and "house" and "food"; you don't have to read Shakespeare or write Joyce right from the start. You get the basics down, and you learn more as you go. There's no reason learning notation should be portrayed as this appallingly difficult obstacle.

As for not teaching it for the first couple of years ... for goodness's sake, why not? Literally millions of little kids have learned notation right from the start. I did, when I was 10, and I was not precocious or by any means a prodigy.

Evidently the education system has failed since I was in grade school. At some point we were all introduced to note names on piano and plastic flutophones and some simple reading. Prety much everybody could do it. Here we have what I assume are adults thinking it's some big hard deal to know note names and visually identify round dot positions on a staff. And fearing the effort of learning something that's just not that hard to get started in.

I'm very much in favour of SN being the superior form, but tab is far easier for a beginner since it's pretty much self explanatory, standard notation isn't.

But that idea right there is the whole point of this thread. I thought it was pretty funny when the OP asked "How the hell do you read these things?"

You shouldn't have to wait a couple of years to learn to read music. In my very first piano lesson when I was 9 I was shown what numbers were assigned to my fingers (thumb is 1, index 2, etc), what a staff, bass and treble clefs, time signature and a whole note on middle C. That was in the first 15 minutes and from that point forward I was reading.

Now I've been in reading situations for all my life from those piano lessons to school band to college analysis courses and reading was required in all of those situations. It's so much more efficient to be able to look at a single piece of notation and see ALL of the information: melody, harmony, articulation, dynamics, tempo, and for the most part I can hear it in my head too. Tab just can't do that.

It's not so much the effort of learning notation, it's making that simultaneous learning of music and instrument at the same time that I found difficult when I was younger, that and trying to play music I'd never heard before just by reading seemed like a ridiculous concept to me, then again timing is probably something that you get as used to as notation after a while.

If I was any good at reading music, or could play bass and knew where notes where on it, then I wouldn't have minded learning the other, but to do both at the same time was just a little too difficult, and when I was 14 and only really wanted to play punk music I didn't have much inclination to keep at it when tabs are so simple in comparison. I learnt a bit of sheet music when we had music classes in secondary school, but I was always having to check which note was which on the clef and what note was what on the keyboard when we did.

Like I said before, SN is better overall, I just see tab as more useful for absolute beginners personally.

It's not so much the effort of learning notation, it's making that simultaneous learning of music and instrument at the same time that I found difficult when I was younger, that and trying to play music I'd never heard before just by reading seemed like a ridiculous concept to me, then again timing is probably something that you get as used to as notation after a while.

If I was any good at reading music, or could play bass and knew where notes where on it, then I wouldn't have minded learning the other, but to do both at the same time was just a little too difficult, and when I was 14 and only really wanted to play punk music I didn't have much inclination to keep at it when tabs are so simple in comparison. I learnt a bit of sheet music when we had music classes in secondary school, but I was always having to check which note was which on the clef and what note was what on the keyboard when we did.

Like I said before, SN is better overall, I just see tab as more useful for absolute beginners personally.

I can respect that you feel it was better for you as an individual, but I wouldn't say that backs up your asserting that it's better for absolute beginners in general. Especially not when I, and a lot of experienced players here, have seen many, MANY absolute beginners learn SN right from the start, with no apparent ill effects. Shoot, many of us were those absolute beginners.

the point of writing things is TO SAVE TIME, as well as to minimize error. ... in the real world you don't always have the time.

So if time is a factor, why should someone like ErebusBass learn a song by ear and not using tab/sn, which would be faster?

So if time is a factor, why should someone like ErebusBass learn a song by ear and not using tab/sn, which would be faster?

Dude, please, I'm begging you, read what I actually say. I didn't say time was the only factor or even that it always was a factor. Nor did I attempt to pose some BS false opposition between learning by ear and writing. You will not find a single knowledgeable player on this site denigrating the value of the ear. So please don't imply that anyone has tried to force a choice between reading and listening.

The ideal thing is to be able to pick up a song EITHER by reading OR by listening. In different circumstances, one or the other might be easier or faster or more convenient. Simply put, you do the one that gives you the best results in the situation you find yourself in. The problem with tab is that from the point of view of really learning your instrument, it's almost never (if ever) the approach that yields the best results.

Let me see if I can put it another way. You benefit from learning by ear because music is fundamentally about listening and making sounds anyway, as well as because written documents may not be available or needed. You benefit from learning to read and write music because learning by ear is not always practical or possible (e.g., when you don't get a chance to hear the music first), and because you may well need to communicate in both directions with other musicians, as well as to save time and minimize ambiguity. You benefit from learning to write in SN rather than tab because tab is a poor tool for the purpose and SN is a much better one. In developing as a musician, you're well advised to spend the bulk of your time working on the things that are truly useful, and not on the things that aren't.

So wat about a program like 'Guitar pro whic gives both tab AND SN?
Is this going to be more or less accurate?

So wat about a program like 'Guitar pro whic gives both tab AND SN?
Is this going to be more or less accurate?

Depends on who did it, for one thing. Bad transcription is bad transcription in any medium.

Remember also that tab gives only one fingering. There are some things for which there's really only one practical way to play them (assuming a standard-tuned instrument), but there are many things for which there are two or more fingering options, and tab refuses you access to those. I don't know if you would call that being less accurate, exactly ... but you could call it needless foreclosure of options.

Finally, remember that if you tune your bass in any nonstandard way, as I do, tab written for standard tuning will automatically become wrong, whereas standard notation will still be as right as it ever was.

But I could see a combination of SN and tab as being useful, yeah. It's possible to provide fingering info on SN (my preference), but admittedly that's the one thing that tab does decently. I would recommend, however, that you spend most of your effort trying to read the SN. Use the tab as a fingering suggestion (not an ironclad command) if you get stuck; use the suggested fingering if it helps, but feel free to ignore it if you think a different fingering works better, physically or sonically or both. Once you try a different fingering, tab might as well not be there, whereas SN remains every bit as valid as it was. The ability to ignore fingering and still extract the key musical information is as important as having the fingering info available for use if wanted. Actually, it's much more important.

In the end, however, looking at one staff is easier than looking at two, and at some point, if you have the interest and desire to keep going along this road, you'll likely find that going to SN alone is just more effective all around.

Depends on who did it, for one thing. Bad transcription is bad transcription in any medium.

Remember also that tab gives only one fingering. There are some things for which there's really only one practical way to play them (assuming a standard-tuned instrument), but there are many things for which there are two or more fingering options, and tab refuses you access to those. I don't know if you would call that being less accurate, exactly ... but you could call it needless foreclosure of options.

Finally, remember that if you tune your bass in any nonstandard way, as I do, tab written for standard tuning will automatically become wrong, whereas standard notation will still be as right as it ever was.

But I could see a combination of SN and tab as being useful, yeah. It's possible to provide fingering info on SN (my preference), but admittedly that's the one thing that tab does decently. I would recommend, however, that you spend most of your effort trying to read the SN. Use the tab as a fingering suggestion (not an ironclad command) if you get stuck; use the suggested fingering if it helps, but feel free to ignore it if you think a different fingering works better, physically or sonically or both. Once you try a different fingering, tab might as well not be there, whereas SN remains every bit as valid as it was. The ability to ignore fingering and still extract the key musical information is as important as having the fingering info available for use if wanted. Actually, it's much more important.

In the end, however, looking at one staff is easier than looking at two, and at some point, if you have the interest and desire to keep going along this road, you'll likely find that going to SN alone is just more effective all around.

+1

Sly

If you can read SN, presumably you can hear it in your head (without instrument in hand).
If you know your scales, the fingerings will work themselves out.

(Not that I know these things very well myself):hmm:

If you can read SN, presumably you can hear it in your head (without instrument in hand).
If you know your scales, the fingerings will work themselves out.

(Not that I know these things very well myself):hmm:

But I guess you get point and are aware of its benefit,

Sly

I think that i am glad i already know how to read SN...! or else i would be totally lost.

See my dad plays by ear, as well as my brothers, he can read tabs, but can't read SN, and refuses to learn, still he manages, though doesn't read many tabs. its kinda frusterating that he refuses to learn.

and i weas "supposed" to learn it in like 3rd grade, but it never stuck b/c i couldn't apply it anywhere. So i learned to in 6th. and bass clef i learned prob a year or two ago. so schools aren't that behind. at least not mine.

The point of notation is precisely that it does NOT tell you exactly where to put your fingers unless that level of specificity is desired (in which case it's fairly easily done).
And yet you state this: It tells you what note you're expected to produce, regardless of whether you tune your bass to concert pitch, a whole step low, in 4ths, in 5ths, whether you play a 4 string or a 5 string or a 6 string. That's important and valuable. Especially on an instrument like the bass, one of the beauties of which is that there is often more than one way to finger a passage.:eyebrow:

If you don't realize you're contradicting yourself, I'll just stop this conversation from allowing your condescending comments to continue by no longer replying.

Hey,

I found TAB to be quite a good learning tool. When I was first learning guitar I would buy the Hal Leonard books (which had the TAB below the standard notation), maybe I was the exception to the rule but correlating the two significantly helped my theory knowledge.

Now I learn stuff by ear probably 95% of the time but if the TAB is there I will incorporate it.

That being said, TAB on the net is almost 100% wrong which is why I don't bother with it. Furthermore, since it is SO bad, I think it is actually detrimental to a beginner bass player who doesn't yet have the ear to "filter the crap" :). However, official TAB publications can't really hurt IMO, as long as it is used as a stepping stone (training wheels) and not the be all, end all.

Later
Rob

/thread

And yet you state this: :eyebrow:

If you don't realize you're contradicting yourself, I'll just stop this conversation from allowing your condescending comments to continue by no longer replying.

Eh? There's an immense amount of difference between a note and someone/something telling you where to play that note. I really don't see what your getting at.

For example I don't really like using my high strings apart from less dynamic/loud parts of songs (to be honest I use my G for about 1% of notes, not an exact figure obviously but the point is I rarely use it as useful/necessary as it can be) and I don't really care for using open strings other then my E either, both are things I avoid unless it's not really possible to do otherwise.

With tab I have to look at it and reconfigure all the fingering to adapt it to my playing style so I play that note in a way I'm more comfortable with/prefer the sound of. I'm sure you could get used to that after a while, and you'd begin to see notes with tabs instead of fingering positions, in which case you might as well have put that effort into learning sheet music. God knows what people with weird tunings or 15 strings or whatever would have to do half the time.

With sheet music your free to interpret music as your playing style sees fit to some degree, something tab does not suggest to you.

I still defend tabs usefulness, mostly as a beginner tool, but Standard Notation is categorically superior, there are only gonna be a few weird arguments out of it like "I was born with a genetic deficiency of the part of my brain needed to read symbols" and equally outlandish exceptions.

And yet you state this: :eyebrow:

If you don't realize you're contradicting yourself, I'll just stop this conversation from allowing your condescending comments to continue by no longer replying.

Here's what you don't get.

The NOTE and the finger position are not the same thing. Until you get that, you can't understand any of the points more experienced musicians are making. And you won't understand why I'm not contradicting myself in the slightest but making a distinction you'd benefit from knowing.

I'm sorry if this sounds condescending, because it's not meant that way. But the main prerequisite of learning something is knowing that you don't know something. And this is something you don't know. You can take the opportunity to learn or you can continue as you are. Your choice.

Richard Lindsey is right on the money, hitting the nail on the head, spot on, aces in the hole (etc.) all through this thread.

To put it really, really simply,

note = pitch (A, B, C etc.)
finger position = fret (it doesn't take into account what your bass is tuned to, only that you hit that fret).

For example, if you play Blister In The Sun from tab, but you're tuned to drop D. It's not going to sound correct, but you ARE playing it correctly if you go by finger position alone. SN tells you exactly what NOTES you are playing, regardless of tuning or where you choose to play it on the neck.

Here's what you don't get.

The NOTE and the finger position are not the same thing. Until you get that, you can't understand any of the points more experienced musicians are making. And you won't understand why I'm not contradicting myself in the slightest but making a distinction you'd benefit from knowing.

I'm sorry if this sounds condescending, because it's not meant that way. But the main prerequisite of learning something is knowing that you don't know something. And this is something you don't know. You can take the opportunity to learn or you can continue as you are. Your choice.

115118

Bam.

/thread

115118

Bam.

/thread

More succinct than I ever managed to be!;)

Flawless Victory

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