hello everyone. i'm having some confusion with this scale. i've tried all links and reading but still don't get something.

ok, there are eight notes in the scale yea? (I know it can go on). the eighth is the octave. the first note is the root. the fifth note is the fifth.

does that make the second note the second? the third note the third? the fourth note the fourth? the sixth note the sixth etc?

so if i were to play my major scale in a, would the third note of that scale be the "major third"?

does this mean those notes are always in those places. so no matter how you look at it, the fifth of a root will always be one string down and two frets up?

hello everyone. i'm having some confusion with this scale. i've tried all links and reading but still don't get something.

ok, there are eight notes in the scale yea? (I know it can go on). the eighth is the octave. the first note is the root. the fifth note is the fifth.

does that make the second note the second? the third note the third? the fourth note the fourth? the sixth note the sixth etc?

so if i were to play my major scale in a, would the third note of that scale be the "major third"?

does this mean those notes are always in those places. so no matter how you look at it, the fifth of a root will always be one string down and two frets up?

Yes.

You should specify though which major scale you are referring to, as there's more than one.( I just assume that it is the ionian scale, you are talking about.

I would recommend you learn the scales not by neck and fret positions but by notes.
Learn the names of the notes and where these notes are on your neck .
This will free you up.

There are seven notes in the major scale: in the key of C, they'd be C D E F G A B. If you kept going the next note would be C again (the octave). Yes, the second note (D here) is called "the second", F is called "the fourth" (in C), etc. And yes, one string down and two frets up on a bass guitar is always a "perfect fifth" interval, which is the fifth note if the major scale.

HTH. Keep asking questions if you don't get it yet. Don't worry about getting flamed. Everyone has to learn this stuff and start somewhere.

hello everyone. i'm having some confusion with this scale. i've tried all links and reading but still don't get something.

ok, there are eight notes in the scale yea? (I know it can go on). the eighth is the octave. the first note is the root. the fifth note is the fifth.

does that make the second note the second? the third note the third? the fourth note the fourth? the sixth note the sixth etc?

so if i were to play my major scale in a, would the third note of that scale be the "major third"?

does this mean those notes are always in those places. so no matter how you look at it, the fifth of a root will always be one string down and two frets up?

ill have a go at answering these seen i need the practice.


C D E F G A B C

Basic triad is R, 3rd & 5th, so - 8 notes starting on root, 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th octave(root)

If you take the basic chord pattern for major you can play it anywhere on the neck as long as you have 3 strings.


as for the 3rd i think its just called the third, in major and dominant chord structures the 3rd is natural.

in minor and 1/2 diminished the 3rd is flat.

soemone else might be able to help more :smug: im still trying to work out theory myself

Take a look at this site. Everything is explained in an easy to understand style.

www.studybass.com

does this mean those notes are always in those places. so no matter how you look at it, the fifth of a root will always be one string down and two frets up?

Yes and no. Always speak in sound. Even though the G string (smallest on a 4 string) is down physically, it's up when speaking of sound. Same thing for frets. Following that logic, one string up and two frets up is a perfect fifth.

Now, the advanced lesson. :p One string down and two frets down is also a perfect fifth but if you start from the same note as the exemple in the first paragraph, you'll end up on a different note. That's because a 5th (or 2nd, 3rd, etc) can describe an interval between two notes without any reference to a key or/and can describe the position/function of a single note within a key.

Exemple:
C ascending to G is a perfect 5th
C descending to F is a perfect 5th

G is the 5th in C major.
F is the 4th in C major

You should specify though which major scale you are referring to, as there's more than one.( I just assume that it is the ionian scale, you are talking about.

There is only one major scale. Otherwise it is called something else.

tru dat

only one major scale.....

ionian is a "mode"

ionian
dorian
phrygian

and stuff like that

search modes to find out more


now.....

the thing that messes me up (sorry to guam your thread) is the maj third, minor third, triads, and diminished and augmented....


I gotta do some work on that myself....sorry to confuse....

maybe someone has a clear explanation about those things?


al

Okay, check this out:

Some intervals are PERFECT: Fourths and Fifths. Long story why they are; has to do with how the overtones line up. (Octaves and Unisons are also perfect, but ignore them for now.)

The other intervals AREN'T perfect. 2nds, Thirds, Sixths, and Sevenths. Each of these has a MAJOR version - the one you'd find in the Major Scale - and a MINOR version, which is one-half step below its major counterpart.

If you raise a PERFECT or a MAJOR interval by a half step, you AUGMENT it.

If you lower a PERFECT or a MINOR interval by a half step, you DIMINISH it.

Hope that helps. :)

There is only one major scale. Otherwise it is called something else.

I may have been splitting hairs, but...
The third determins wether a scale is major or minor.
lydian,mixolydian are both major scales as well.
Lydian and Mixolydia,( Xmaj7#4 and X7 respectively) are modes , yes, the major scale usually referred to as the major scale is a mode as well and is called Ionian( Xmaj7).

hello everyone. i'm having some confusion with this scale. i've tried all links and reading but still don't get something.

ok, there are eight notes in the scale yea? (I know it can go on). the eighth is the octave. the first note is the root. the fifth note is the fifth.

does that make the second note the second? the third note the third? the fourth note the fourth? the sixth note the sixth etc?

so if i were to play my major scale in a, would the third note of that scale be the "major third"?

does this mean those notes are always in those places. so no matter how you look at it, the fifth of a root will always be one string down and two frets up?


You know the name of scale degrees, but need to understand the interval between the notes and between the root and the notes to fully understand how a major scale is build. You need to understand that to understand key signature. There is one major scale as OnlyClave said and if you know how to build it you can build it in any key. It is really important to learn the major scale in detail because it will be your point of reference for learning/comparing/building other scales and modes.

There are other scales and modes and they get categorized into major, minor families based the the 3rd and 7th identity notes of the scale. The other note are basically the color tones.

Here the "structure" of the ionian scale in wholetone(1) and semitone1/2) steps.
1-1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2 (WWHWWWH)
It's the same in any key.

hello everyone. i'm having some confusion with this scale. i've tried all links and reading but still don't get something.

ok, there are eight notes in the scale yea? (I know it can go on). the eighth is the octave. the first note is the root. the fifth note is the fifth.

does that make the second note the second? the third note the third? the fourth note the fourth? the sixth note the sixth etc?

so if i were to play my major scale in a, would the third note of that scale be the "major third"?

does this mean those notes are always in those places. so no matter how you look at it, the fifth of a root will always be one string down and two frets up?

Yes, the same can be said for all scales.

I may have been splitting hairs, but...
The third determins wether a scale is major or minor.
lydian,mixolydian are both major scales as well.
Lydian and Mixolydia,( Xmaj7#4 and X7 respectively) are modes , yes, the major scale usually referred to as the major scale is a mode as well and is called Ionian( Xmaj7).

I'm going to call you out on this one.

C Db E F G A B is not a major scale
C D E F G# A B is not a major scale
C D# E F Gb A B is not a major scale
C D E F# G# A# is not a major scale
C Db Eb E F# G A Bb is not a major scale
C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C is not a major scale
C D E F G A Bb is not a major scale

The breakdown in your logic is all major scales have an interval of a major third between the first and third steps, but not all scales with that interval between those steps is a major scale.

All puppies are babies, therefore all babies are puppies, right?

There is one (1) major scale, defined W-W-H-W-W-W-H

All puppies are babies, therefore all babies are puppies, right?

There is one (1) major scale, defined W-W-H-W-W-W-H

Love that analogy and will use it myself LOL

I believe onlyclave has summed it up.

Looks like you are on the right track. Except that the major scale is a seven note formula ("8" is just a slightly more complicated way of saying "1").

It's (W W H W W W H) called the "Diatonic major scale". A pentatonic major scale is a major scale too.

jte

I'm going to call you out on this one.

C Db E F G A B is not a major scale
C D E F G# A B is not a major scale
C D# E F Gb A B is not a major scale
C D E F# G# A# is not a major scale
C Db Eb E F# G A Bb is not a major scale
C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C is not a major scale
C D E F G A Bb is not a major scale

The breakdown in your logic is all major scales have an interval of a major third between the first and third steps, but not all scales with that interval between those steps is a major scale.



All puppies are babies, therefore all babies are puppies, right?

There is one (1) major scale, defined W-W-H-W-W-W-H

I would consider the first one on your list a major scale (Xflat9)
And the second (X#5)
And the third ( X#9)
And the fourth ( wholetonescale, aka. augmented scale)
And the last one on your list (Mixolydian)
Your quoting the chromatic scale was a joke, yes?
I considered the subject to be modes since it was mentioned.
You can quote any number of altered scales and call them what you will.
The one major scale that is the real subject of this thread is the ionian, yes?

Let's just leave it at this.

It's (W W H W W W H) called the "Diatonic major scale". A pentatonic major scale is a major scale too.

jte

"Diatonic major scale" - Another name for the same thing.
Agreed on the pentatonic.

I would consider the first one on your list a major scale (Xflat9)
And the second (X#5)
And the third ( X#9)
And the fourth ( wholetonescale, aka. augmented scale)
And the last one on your list (Mixolydian)
Your quoting the chromatic scale was a joke, yes?
I considered the subject to be modes since it was mentioned.
You can quote any number of altered scales and call them what you will.
The one major scale that is the real subject of this thread is the ionian, yes?

Let's just leave it at this.

Let's not leave it at this because these answers are incorrect. The concept of a major scale can be taught to a 6 year old piano student. That synthetic garbage I postulated was to prove a point.

The subject is NOT modes since the OP never mentioned them. His question was the relationship between scale members the same regardless of which key you are in which is yes, it is, which is not to be confused with the systems for solfege which are used in the world. Some consider Middle C 'do' regardless of key and some consider the tonic of the key 'do' thereby making it moveable.

If you were to walk into a college string jury and they asked you to play a 2-octave major scale and you played G mixolydian you would receive a failing grade.

My whole point was that it helps to be as specific when asking a question as possible.
There are a number of "major scales" one of them is the ionian.
This would likely be completely irellevant to your six year old piano student.( and is probably not all too relevant here either-that I'll admit quite happily :-) )
It is also the one commonly just called major scale.
That does not alter the fact that it is not the only one there is.
And I did some time ago admit to splitting hair a little(sorry...).
Well there we go.
Good night all :)

Sorry to jump in, and this is splitting hairs, but the Lydian scale is a major scale based from the 4th degree of the Ionian scale. The 4th chord in the key of C major is Fma7. The Lydian scale has a sharped 4th. It IS a major scale that is related to a major chord. Just not the Ionian that is commonly referred to as THE major scale.

The logic of saying there is only one major scale is not correct. Would you say there is only one minor scale?

Cheers. :bassist:

Sorry to jump in, and this is splitting hairs, but the Lydian scale is a major scale based from the 4th degree of the Ionian scale. The 4th chord in the key of C major is Fma7. The Lydian scale has a sharped 4th. It IS a major scale that is related to a major chord. Just not the Ionian that is commonly referred to as THE major scale.

The logic of saying there is only one major scale is not correct. Would you say there is only one minor scale?

Cheers. :bassist:

Spoken by someone else that doesn't get it.

If you walked into an audition and I told you to play a 2 octave D major scale and you asked "Which one?" I would tell you D.

You can make all kind of arguments based off of technicalities, but there are standards that are adhered to. A major scale is understood to be the Ionian mode. There may be other scales that have a major sound because of the major third between the first and third scale members, but when we talk about C Major, we mean exactly that. If you need someone to specify C Ionian major instead of C Mixolydian major you have a lot more studying to do. Do you also insist on talking about One Dollar in United States of America Federal Reserve Notes? Because those certainly are different that the Canadian dollar.

And there are three minor scales: Natural, harmonic and melodic.

Don't go clouding the waters when you have no reason to do so. No wonder the same stupid questions keep getting asked here over and over again.

Spoken by someone else that doesn't get it.

If you walked into an audition and I told you to play a 2 octave D major scale and you asked "Which one?" I would tell you D.

You can make all kind of arguments based off of technicalities, but there are standards that are adhered to. A major scale is understood to be the Ionian mode. There may be other scales that have a major sound because of the major third between the first and third scale members, but when we talk about C Major, we mean exactly that. If you need someone to specify C Ionian major instead of C Mixolydian major you have a lot more studying to do. Do you also insist on talking about One Dollar in United States of America Federal Reserve Notes? Because those certainly are different that the Canadian dollar.

And there are three minor scales: Natural, harmonic and melodic.

Don't go clouding the waters when you have no reason to do so. No wonder the same stupid questions keep getting asked here over and over again.

If you want to clarify, there is a single major scale, and three major modes (then the three minor modes and the locrian mode). I think thinking about it that way is the clearest, IMHO.

Sorry to jump in, and this is splitting hairs, but the Lydian scale is a major scale based from the 4th degree of the Ionian scale. The 4th chord in the key of C major is Fma7. The Lydian scale has a sharped 4th. It IS a major scale that is related to a major chord. Just not the Ionian that is commonly referred to as THE major scale.

The logic of saying there is only one major scale is not correct. Would you say there is only one minor scale?

Cheers. :bassist:

The intervallic makeup of the lydian mode is identical to the ionian, same as it is to the locrian, dorian, etc. They are all modes, or versions of, the same scale, just rearranged around a different tonic pitch. They all reflect the one major scale.

This is different with the minor scales - there are different intervals among the natural (which technically isn't even a scale separate from the major scale, since it's just modal aeolian), the harmonic and the melodic minors. This means in total amongst the three of them there are going to be 21 modes, and out of those modes, 9 of them will be "major", or having the major third. According to your logic, that means there are 9 major scales. This actually doesn't take into account other intervallic schema, such as the harmonic major, which has three more "major scales", bringing the total to 12. And this is only septatonic (7-note) scales, you can get into a lot more once you're toying with other numbered scales.

So yes. There is a single major scale. Not three. Not 12. One.

Take a look at this site. Everything is explained in an easy to understand style.

www.studybass.comDude. Thank you, that site is killer.

The intervallic makeup of the lydian mode is identical to the ionian, same as it is to the locrian, dorian, etc. They are all modes, or versions of, the same scale, just rearranged around a different tonic pitch. They all reflect the one major scale.

This is different with the minor scales - there are different intervals among the natural (which technically isn't even a scale separate from the major scale, since it's just modal aeolian), the harmonic and the melodic minors. This means in total amongst the three of them there are going to be 21 modes, and out of those modes, 9 of them will be "major", or having the major third. According to your logic, that means there are 9 major scales. This actually doesn't take into account other intervallic schema, such as the harmonic major, which has three more "major scales", bringing the total to 12. And this is only septatonic (7-note) scales, you can get into a lot more once you're toying with other numbered scales.

So yes. There is a single major scale. Not three. Not 12. One.

OK, I stand corrected. I'm eating crow or whatever. I know it's a confusing issue and I'm sorry if I added to any confusion.

HaVIC5, I enjoy your lessons on Youtube. Keep them coming.

Im reading these and thinking what the hell is eveyone talking about. Im finding scales hard not so much to play them, i can play them fast and remeber them after a couple of minutes practice, its just all the different ones with weird names and how to fit them into actual music. when making a bass line can you say jump from A note to D or does it have to go from A,B,C,D? And also do the notes all have to be taken from the same scale. So for example if i was playing the root c and the note g would the next note have to come from that major C scale too. Im confused

Maybe it might be helpful to check out the link in my signature.

Mel Bay's Essential Music Theory for Electric Bass- Very easy to understand, well written. Answers all your questions plus the minor scale intervals as well.

Im reading these and thinking what the hell is eveyone talking about. Im finding scales hard not so much to play them, i can play them fast and remeber them after a couple of minutes practice, its just all the different ones with weird names and how to fit them into actual music. when making a bass line can you say jump from A note to D or does it have to go from A,B,C,D? And also do the notes all have to be taken from the same scale. So for example if i was playing the root c and the note g would the next note have to come from that major C scale too. Im confused

Trust24, scales are just theoretical tools... you can play any notes you want. :) If you study your favorite music, you'll probably find it doesn't stick to the same scale 100% of the time. You can mix and match and jump around as long as it sounds good.

Just to add my 2 cents to "is the lydian mode a major scale?" I think the reason people are confused is this: In diatonic harmony, you can build a triad on each degree of the major scale. The I, IV, and V triads are major, the ii, iii, and vi triads are minor, and vii is diminished. It is true that the IV and V triads are major in quality (because they have a major 3rd), but that does NOT mean that the Lydian and Mixolydian modes are major scales... that is an incorrect leap in logic. There is only one major scale (or 12 major scales, one for each key). :)

ill have a go at answering these seen i need the practice.


C D E F G A B C

Basic triad is R, 3rd & 5th, so - 8 notes starting on root, 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th octave(root)

If you take the basic chord pattern for major you can play it anywhere on the neck as long as you have 3 strings.


as for the 3rd i think its just called the third, in major and dominant chord structures the 3rd is natural.

in minor and 1/2 diminished the 3rd is flat.

soemone else might be able to help more :smug: im still trying to work out theory myself

Binnie get in there great to see gettin on.

If you take the basic chord pattern for major you can play it anywhere on the neck as long as you have 3 strings.
Think of it as any three string that are tuned a 4th a part from the lowest ie. standard across the 5th fret.

I hope your theory is giving you some results, all power and respect to ya.

I feel so sorry for the OP.

Ask a simple question and get a storm of confusing and apparently contradictory responses (technically all correct in one degree or another) Is it any wonder some newbies just give up on it?

If you're a newbie you don't need that much theory to get off the ground:
-Learn the major (aka Ionian) scale and its intervals.
-Learn how chords/arpegios are built from the Major scale.
-Learn the minor, mixolydian and maj and min pentatonic.
-Understand how modes are derived (memorizing them is less important)
Then focus on playing music, learning songs and basslines you dig, developing your ears and taste.

As you play Music, you will naturally begin to notice how these things inter-relate. Look up the terminology as you need it. Like to post confusing info to newbies, for example.
apologies for being snotty

hello everyone. i'm having some confusion with this scale. i've tried all links and reading but still don't get something.

ok, there are eight notes in the scale yea? (I know it can go on). the eighth is the octave. the first note is the root. the fifth note is the fifth.

does that make the second note the second? the third note the third? the fourth note the fourth? the sixth note the sixth etc?

so if i were to play my major scale in a, would the third note of that scale be the "major third"?

does this mean those notes are always in those places. so no matter how you look at it, the fifth of a root will always be one string down and two frets up?

No, there are seven notes in the major scale. The octave has the same function as the tonic. The rest of what you are saying is correct.

There are, however instances where an interval of two tones will be a b4 rather than a Major 3rd though, but let's not confuse the issue just at the moment.

Trust24, scales are just theoretical tools... you can play any notes you want. :) If you study your favorite music, you'll probably find it doesn't stick to the same scale 100% of the time. You can mix and match and jump around as long as it sounds good.

Just to add my 2 cents to "is the lydian mode a major scale?" I think the reason people are confused is this: In diatonic harmony, you can build a triad on each degree of the major scale. The I, IV, and V triads are major, the ii, iii, and vi triads are minor, and vii is diminished. It is true that the IV and V triads are major in quality (because they have a major 3rd), but that does NOT mean that the Lydian and Mixolydian modes are major scales... that is an incorrect leap in logic. There is only one major scale (or 12 major scales, one for each key). :)

I would refrain from using the old "as long as it sounds good" quip there. I think sounding good is completely arbitrary to the notes you use. It has to do with function, not with sounding good, because whether it sounds good or not comes down to how the tones used function and how they are interpreted by the conditioned ear.

For example are the notes meant to be consonant or dissonant and what is their harmonic function and are they for tension or release? Like when you look at a run that goes Bb => B => Cb => C it might "sound good" but why it sounds good has to do with how the notes lead to a gradual building of tension and a final release as it returns to a tonal centre.

On the Lydian as Major scale thing, it is true that THE major scale is only one particular scale. On the other hand I think you have to look at diatonic paradigm to full understand why it is THE major scale and why Lydian and Mixolydian are not.

Firstly you need to consider that Lydian has no V7 chord to resolve to it's tonal centre. Secondly it has a tritone interval based on the tonic. These two things create dissonance in the context of the chord rather than harmonic and melodic resolution. On the other hand I have seen arguments that Lydian is the "true" major scale based on the series of the circle of 5ths. I'm not going to get into that here though.

Mixolydian is an unlikely candidate for being the major scale because it has a dominant chord attached to it which wants to resolve elsewhere. That is that it's I chord wants to resolve to its 4th degree.

To the OP, don' get too hung up on this stuff just yet.

On the other hand I have seen arguments that Lydian is the "true" major scale based on the series of the circle of 5ths. I'm not going to get into that here though.

LCCTO FTL.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH all the way. I love this thread, its why i love being a musician and not just a BASS PLAYER. My oar is out of the water as its all being said rightly and wrongly.

Sorry to jump in, and this is splitting hairs, but the Lydian scale is a major scale based from the 4th degree of the Ionian scale. The 4th chord in the key of C major is Fma7. The Lydian scale has a sharped 4th. It IS a major scale that is related to a major chord. Just not the Ionian that is commonly referred to as THE major scale.

The logic of saying there is only one major scale is not correct. Would you say there is only one minor scale?

Cheers. :bassist:

THANK YOU!!!

If you want to clarify, there is a single major scale, and three major modes (then the three minor modes and the locrian mode). I think thinking about it that way is the clearest, IMHO.

ionian, commonly known as "the major scale" is a mode too, no?

ionian, commonly known as "the major scale" is a mode too, no?

It is a mode of the major scale, yes. Your point? If you're trying to prove that there is more than one major scale this way, nice try. Remember, there are at least 12 other modes in addition to Ionian that have 7 notes and the major third.

If I was auditioning someone and asked them to play a D major scale, I would expect them to play the scale that corresponds to the grouping of notes used in the key of D major and that equates to the D Ionian mode. That's the only scale that is called D major.

If they played D phrygian dominant and tried to argue a case for it being 'major', I'd give the job to someone else.

Nuff said.

I think the argument comes down to this question: "If you can play scale X over a major chord, is it therefore a major scale?" I have already stated my opinion. ;)

It is a mode of the major scale, yes. Your point? If you're trying to prove that there is more than one major scale this way, nice try.

I'm not trying anything. :)

LCCTO FTL.

Now, don't dribble on yourself. If you have something to say, spit it out lad. But really, these silly acronyms mean stuff all to me.

Lovely Chocolate Coconut Toffee Orange Flavoured Tea Leaves? Sounds nice, will you make me a cup?

I think the argument comes down to this question: "If you can play scale X over a major chord, is it therefore a major scale?"

You can play a superlocrian scale over a major chord.

If I was auditioning someone and asked them to play a D major scale, I would expect them to play the scale that corresponds to the grouping of notes used in the key of D major and that equates to the D Ionian mode. That's the only scale that is called D major.

If they played D phrygian dominant and tried to argue a case for it being 'major', I'd give the job to someone else.

Exactly. I don't think anyone would expect that the major scale is anything other than the even tempered representation of the intervals, tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone.

There are any given number of scales, as you point out that have a major triad attached to them. that doesn't qualify them as THE major scale, though.

As I said before the things that determine the Major scale or the subjective factors involving consonance, and tonal resolution. The V returning to the I, the leading tone, the absence of a tritonal interval based on the tonic, the harmonic series that prefers the M3 and the "smooth" melodic voice leading that dictates the M2 and M6.

Now, don't dribble on yourself. If you have something to say, spit it out lad. But really, these silly acronyms mean stuff all to me.

Lovely Chocolate Coconut Toffee Orange Flavoured Tea Leaves? Sounds nice, will you make me a cup?

Well, really, with acronyms YMMV.

*it meant "Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization For The Loose. I don't buy it.

I kind of lost what everybody's trying to argue here. I'll make this concise.

I. - Major Scale=Ionian 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 No sharps or flats. It's the 'base' scale.

Now, based off the Ionian we have 6 'modes'
ii. - Dorian 1,2,3b,4,5,6,7b
iii. - Phrygian 1,2b,3b,4,5,6b,7b
IV. - Lydian & Mixolydian: They may be described as a "major" scale; however these two are not truly 'major' as they still possess either a raised 4th or flatted 7th, respectively.
V. -Natural Minor Scale=Aeolian 1,2,3b,4,5,6b,7b
vii. -Locrian (which contains a diminished chord) 1,2b,3b,4,5b,6b,7b

The Locrian brings up a topic I read here regarding what chords are connected to the scales and as such how some interpret the interconnectedness of some chords among the scales and thus determine them as being either a 'mode' or 'major'. That is incorrect as the 'chords' do not -name- the scale and I believe this is where the error is coming from.

Of course, we're just dealing with Western music, right?

Well, really, with acronyms YMMV.

*it meant "Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization For The Loose. I don't buy it.

You don't have to buy it though. I'm not really selling it either, just stating that I have heard that argument.

On the other hand I do think there are some mathematical merits to it in terms of how the circle of 5ths works diatonically. I also think that since lydian is close to lydian dominant, and lydian dominant is the first heptonic manifestation of harmonic series there is some merit in the argument itself as a purely academic consideration.

With that said though, it doesn't make lydian conform to the requirements of consonant diatonic resolution that the major scale does, as I mentioned above.

Boy, I'm glad I didn't do that whole post in acronyms...

and lydian dominant is the first heptonic manifestation of harmonic series

Once you get to the 22nd harmonic (which is inaudible in virtually any case), any similarity to western diatonic theory has long gone. It's closest to a tritone, but its a quarter tone flat. You might as well get into maqam modality at that point. (Which I heartily recommend, particularly to you mutedeity... you'd love it!)

I kind of lost what everybody's trying to argue here. I'll make this concise.

I. - Major Scale=Ionian 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 No sharps or flats. It's the 'base' scale.

Now, based off the Ionian we have 6 'modes'
ii. - Dorian 1,2,3b,4,5,6,7b
iii. - Phrygian 1,2b,3b,4,5,6b,7b
IV. - Lydian & Mixolydian: They may be described as a "major" scale; however these two are not truly 'major' as they still possess either a raised 4th or flatted 7th, respectively.
V. -Natural Minor Scale=Aeolian 1,2,3b,4,5,6b,7b
vii. -Locrian (which contains a diminished chord) 1,2b,3b,4,5b,6b,7b

The Locrian brings up a topic I read here regarding what chords are connected to the scales and as such how some interpret the interconnectedness of some chords among the scales and thus determine them as being either a 'mode' or 'major'. That is incorrect as the 'chords' do not -name- the scale and I believe this is where the error is coming from.

Of course, we're just dealing with Western music, right?

What happens is that each mode "contains" a tertian "spelling" of itself. Tertian meaning based on 3rds.

The tertian spelling of a heptonic scale will be the degrees 1, 3, 5, 7, 9(2), 11(4), 13(6). Note that the 11 and 13 are basically compound intervals of the 4th and 6th of the scale. Whereas the 9th is technically the largest interval and has a different function to the 2nd.

Basically though it's the first three notes of that spelling that we primarily build diatonic harmony. We can also commonly use the 7th which comes into how we voice the dominant for example.

We can say that these tertian harmonies can be derived from a scale, but we can't really emphatically say that a scale can be derived from a triad or a tetrad since multiple scales can share the same triad or tetrad.

Triads and tetrads can also ostensibly be teritan but in the context of a scale like say, hungarian major [1,#2,3,#4,5,6,b7],
a minor chord could be "derived" by playing the #2. Strictly speaking this is not a true minor chord given the context, but it will sound and function like one in a practical sense.

So what I am saying there is that you can get the chord from the scale but it is a big leap to assume a scale based on the chord. There are certain paradigms that do make this leap though, for example, George Russell's theories deal with this kind of thing.

As far as modes go. Modes are not the other scales that aren't major. Modes are the permutations of the intervals of any scale depending on the starting point or tonal centre of those intervals in sequence.

Technically I would argue that Dorian, Lydian and so on are scales in their own right. They just happen to be enharmonic to the relative modes that are derived from the major scale. That has nothing to do with which chords are connected to them, by the way. The derivation of chords is a result of the way that the modes permutate.

This is all about western tonality, but I guess could be applied to other tonal idioms. But remember that any scale that uses an even tempered chromatic system, ie the 12 notes we know will be subject to this musical paradigm in some way.

As a footnote, before anyone goes posting about how this is beyond the point and how the OP wasn't asking about this stuff or how it is too confusing for the OP at their level, I suggest you consider that this stuff does in fact answer what the OP is asking. If further explanation for any of what I am saying is needed, feel free to use your web browser or local library to investigate, failing that you can always get a tutor.

1)Technically I would argue that Dorian, Lydian and so on are scales in their own right.
2)They just happen to be enharmonic to the relative modes that are derived from the major scale.
3)That has nothing to do with which chords are connected to them, by the way. The derivation of chords is a result of the way that the modes permutate.

1) You might need to explain your point on that more. Of course they are scales. I might be missing what you are getting at here? :hmm:

2) Derived would have been a much better use of wording than my 'base'. I fail :rollno:

3) That's what my point was. I swear to god I remember reading here someone saying how certain chords align on certain scales 'allow' the scale to be labelled 'major.

Once you get to the 22nd harmonic (which is inaudible in virtually any case), any similarity to western diatonic theory has long gone. It's closest to a tritone, but its a quarter tone flat. You might as well get into maqam modality at that point. (Which I heartily recommend, particularly to you mutedeity... you'd love it!)

Yes but I am going on the assumption that it's understood that we are converting from Pythagorean (or should I say "Just"? Feel free to correct me on that one) tempering to even tempering. Also this stuff has been covered by George Russell, so it's not like I'm making it up.

1) You might need to explain your point on that more. Of course they are scales. I might be missing what you are getting at here? :hmm:

2) Derived would have been a much better use of wording than my 'base'. I fail :rollno:

3) That's what my point was. I swear to god I remember reading here someone saying how certain chords align on certain scales 'allow' the scale to be labelled 'major.

On point one, I think it's pretty self explanatory really. I will go a bit further though to say that a mode is a permutation of a "parent" scale. A scale is a group of notes that have function unto themselves. When we call Dorian, for example, a mode we are implying that it is a permutation of the Major scale. On the other hand Dorian is a scale with the degrees [1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7] independent of the major scale as it's "parent". In fact the major scale is enharmonically a mode of the "dorain" scale.

On point three, this is only true when you are subscribing to a particular paradigm that allows you to make such assumptions. These assumptions are subjective to the composer or improviser, though.

The only way you can derive the tonality of a scale based on triads is by "adding" the triads together to form a scale. This in itself can be an assumption because you could still play CMaj and GMaj and be modulating from G ionian to C ionian. There are many other possibilities there too.

hello everyone. i'm having some confusion with this scale. i've tried all links and reading but still don't get something.

ok, there are eight notes in the scale yea? (I know it can go on). the eighth is the octave. the first note is the root. the fifth note is the fifth.

does that make the second note the second? the third note the third? the fourth note the fourth? the sixth note the sixth etc?

so if i were to play my major scale in a, would the third note of that scale be the "major third"?

does this mean those notes are always in those places. so no matter how you look at it, the fifth of a root will always be one string down and two frets up?

YES !!!

YES !!!

No, Slybass, there are NOT eight notes in the major scale, there are seven. So your big red yes is void...

The OP wants to know few things and he is not far from the true.
I know and he knows that there are seven differents pitches in the scale.
It is not totally wrong to call an octave the eight note because the symbol 8va does represent it !

WHO ****ING CARES

WHO ****ING CARES

In your previous post, you said you were confused, and asked some good questions. If you want to know the answers, stay tuned... otherwise if you don't care, why are you posting in this thread? :)

The OP wants to know few things and he is not far from the true.
I know and he knows that there are seven differents pitches in the scale.
It is not totally wrong to call an octave the eight note because the symbol 8va does represent it !

No, slybass you are incorrect on this one. Otherwise we can say it has nine tones since technically the largest, non-compound, interval in diatonic harmony is the 9th.

SEVEN TONES.

We all know there are seven different tones in the major scale... however the prefix "oct" literally means eight, so it is not crazy to call the octave the 8th note. There is a linguistic precedent. :)

For what it's worth, I read a lot of music books for my job, and I'd say the authors are split about 50/50 whether to spell the major scale 12345678 or 12345671. I would argue that both are acceptable in common usage.

"Which will bring us back to... Do, a deer..."

We all know there are seven different tones in the major scale... however the prefix "oct" literally means eight, so it is not crazy to call the octave the 8th note. There is a linguistic precedent. :)

For what it's worth, I read a lot of music books for my job, and I'd say the authors are split about 50/50 whether to spell the major scale 12345678 or 12345671. I would argue that both are acceptable in common usage.

"Which will bring us back to... Do, a deer..."

Yes, yes, but refer to my last post. If you can say there are eight notes you can say there are nine, and all the more so because the diatonic function of a ninth is different to the function of the second degree.

Therefore there are logically only seven and those that include the octave as the 8th note of a scale are incorrect.

Furthermore there is one perfectly good reason to include the octave in practical spellings of the scale, because unless it is played in context you are only playing six intervals. So when you see these authors adding the "8ve" to a spelling they are unlikely to be presenting the scale as having eight tones as opposed to having seven intervals.

Man,these discussions are hopeless!!!

I'll go back to my practice for the NHL All-Star game,

Furthermore there is one perfectly good reason to include the octave in practical spellings of the scale, because unless it is played in context you are only playing six intervals. So when you see these authors adding the "8ve" to a spelling they are unlikely to be presenting the scale as having eight tones as opposed to having seven intervals.

That is a thought-provoking way of thinking about scales, that they are defined not so much by their notes as by the intervals between them. Thanks!

Man,these discussions are hopeless!!!

I'll go back to my practice for the NHL All-Star game,

Yes, your track record for having a better argument than me in these situations isn't the best slybass. Maybe you should "listen" more than you "speak".

Yes, your track record for having a better argument than me in these situations isn't the best slybass. Maybe you should "listen" more than you "speak".

Ah com'on man.........
We all know that there is 7 pitches or notes in a standard major scale.
And very often we can take that octave like a extra note in the "pattern"
which makes the use of that old classical symbol 8va which represent an octave.

BTW if I wasn't listening like you are accusing me of,I wouldn't be a (working) musician,

Ah com'on man.........
We all know that there is 7 pitches or notes in a standard major scale.
And very often we can take that octave like a extra note in the "pattern"
which makes the use of that old classical symbol 8va which represent an octave.

BTW if I wasn't listening like you are saccusing me of,I wouldn't be a (working) musician,

Yes and that refers to my final point in post 63. It also goes to what I said about the 9th.

But I thought this discussion was hopeless and you had to practice for a game.

I like turtles.

I have so far seen the "8va" in scores where one is to play one octave up from where it's written. As an instruction.
I personally view the octave as part of the scale, but as said before...some don't. :)

The intervallic makeup of the lydian mode is identical to the ionian, same as it is to the locrian, dorian, etc. They are all modes, or versions of, the same scale, just rearranged around a different tonic pitch. They all reflect the one major scale.

This is different with the minor scales - there are different intervals among the natural (which technically isn't even a scale separate from the major scale, since it's just modal aeolian), the harmonic and the melodic minors. This means in total amongst the three of them there are going to be 21 modes, and out of those modes, 9 of them will be "major", or having the major third. According to your logic, that means there are 9 major scales. This actually doesn't take into account other intervallic schema, such as the harmonic major, which has three more "major scales", bringing the total to 12. And this is only septatonic (7-note) scales, you can get into a lot more once you're toying with other numbered scales.

So yes. There is a single major scale. Not three. Not 12. One.How can you say there are three minor scales, natural, melodic and harmonic, and then not acknowledge the harmonic major as a major scale? What makes the harmonic minor count as a minor scale, but the harmonic major doesn't count as a major scale?

How can you say there are three minor scales, natural, melodic and harmonic, and then not acknowledge the harmonic major as a major scale? What makes the harmonic minor count as a minor scale, but the harmonic major doesn't count as a major scale?

For one thing, you have to take standard usage and practice into consideration. You can say that certain modes and scales have a "major" quality to them, in that they possess the major 3rd and so forth--meaning that if you had to put the scale either in a major pigeonhole or a minor pigeonhole, with no other choices, you'd pick the former.

But that doesn't mean it's a major scale as the term is understood by millions if not billions of musicians. It doesn't change the fact that when a major scale is taught, requested, or referred to in the overwhelming majority of Western musical contexts, the standard major scale (=ionian mode) is what's meant. You can argue that it shouldn't be so, but it is so.

How can you say there are three minor scales, natural, melodic and harmonic, and then not acknowledge the harmonic major as a major scale? What makes the harmonic minor count as a minor scale, but the harmonic major doesn't count as a major scale?

We are acknowledging the Harmonic Major. We call it The Major Scale and it is Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti.

You probably don't realize this, but harmonic minor is used all of the time. Natural and melodic minor are a far smaller percentage. The scale sounds exotic when you play it by itself, but a V-i perfect authentic cadence is played it sounds very powerful because of the raised 7th step.

Things must have changed since I was in college. Back then there was one major scale and it was very easy to discuss.

How can you say there are three minor scales, natural, melodic and harmonic, and then not acknowledge the harmonic major as a major scale? What makes the harmonic minor count as a minor scale, but the harmonic major doesn't count as a major scale?

There is no one single "minor scale" because the so-called "natural minor scale" doesn't work harmonically in classical music theory. You need to alter the natural minor scale (by raising the 7th, and sometimes the 6th) if you want a V-i cadence.

The major scale works just fine for a V-I cadence without alteration, therefore there is one single "major scale" and not a whole family of various "major scales." In fact, a V7-I cadence doesn't work with Lydian or Mixolydian--only the major scale (aka Ionian mode).

ps I am not familiar with the term "harmonic major scale"--what is it?

There is no one single "minor scale" because the so-called "natural minor scale" doesn't work harmonically in classical music theory. You need to alter the natural minor scale (by raising the 7th, and sometimes the 6th) if you want a V-i cadence.

The major scale works just fine for a V-I cadence without alteration, therefore there is one single "major scale" and not a whole family of various "major scales." In fact, a V7-I cadence doesn't work with Lydian or Mixolydian--only the major scale (aka Ionian mode).

ps I am not familiar with the term "harmonic major scale"--what is it?

It's a specialty scale (or set of intervallic schema, if I may be so esoteric) that is a resource in modern improvisation. In C it would be...

C D E F G Ab B

The modes of which would yield....

D: 1 2 b3 4 b5 6 7 (melodic minor b5, used over II-7(b5) in a cadence to a Imaj7. Kind of jarring with the natural 6 and 9 in there, so its definitely a modern sound)

E: 1 b2 b3 (#9) b4 (3) 5 b6 b7 (mixolydian b9 #9 b13, a nice all-purpose resource for V7 chords resolving to minor (or even major))

F: 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7 (I've heard this one called the lydian diminished. This might be good to use on auxiliary diminished chords, like a Io7 resolving to I. It also might be an interesting substitution over a min(maj7) chord.)

G: 1 b2 3 4 5 6 b7 (mixolydian b9, a good chord/scale resource to use over V7(b9, 13) chords, or any V7 chord who's expected resolution is major.)

Ab: 1 #2 3 #4 #5 6 7 (George Russell calls this one the auxiliary augmented scale. I'm not sure what to call this, probably lydian augmented #9. It's certainly a interesting sound, probably one I'd use over a maj7(#5) chord, or the min(maj7) chord a minor third down from it.)

B: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 bb7 (?? I don't know what you would call this, but this would probably be a good scale to use for an ascending diminished chord, such as a #Io7 or #IIo7, since most of the non-chord tones in the scale are diatonic to the key. A weird sound, but hey, the harmonic major is a weird scale)