Sorry if this is a question that I should already have the answer for....but I haven't figured it out yet.

I have just started learning the bass...and along with playing some songs to make practice more fun...I have been trying to learn theory.

My question is....how do I determine where on the fretboard I should be in when someone says " in the key of " C, Bb or whatever?

Cheers,
BT

Have you learned the notes of the fretboard yet?

If not, it's quite important, and this might be what you're asking.

If so, then I presume you're asking about how to know what scales and whatnot to play in, in which case I will leave it to someone who can explain it better than I can.

1. Learn the notes on your fretboard, preferably up to the 12th fret (they repeat themselves afterwards - the 12th fret notes are the same +one octave as your open string notes, the 13th fret notes are the same + one octave as your first fret notes, etc.)

2. Learn the major scale, easiest to start in C as it has no sharps or flats.

3. Study this scale and learn about intervals, and how they construct the major scale.

4. Learn the scale in a different key, but using the same intervals (ie. start on a different note (in this case G) and play the same scale with the same intervals or pattern of notes). It should sound the same, but in a different key.


Hope that helps.

My question is....how do I determine where on the fretboard I should be in when someone says " in the key of " C, Bb or whatever?


Making a very broad generalization, if someone says to play in the Key of C, you can play anything in the C Major scale without making a musical fart.

For C Major, that is C, D, E, F, G, A, B. You will notice that is 7 of the 12 possible notes (the others being C#, D#, F#, G#, A#, also known as Db, Eb, Gb, Ab, Bb). You should notice that if a note doesn't sound right, you can always move up or down one note to find one that does!

There are, of course, certain notes that sound more right than others. As a bass player you generally want to outline the tones of the chords being played by the other instruments. Certain types of music use "wrong" notes to create a certain sound (blues for example). There are also many types of music which don't follow these ideas at all.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125519 Intro to scale and chord theory

Bass guitar for dummies book is actually quite cool... and covers this topic.

Also Hal Leonard Bass Method teaches you the notes on the fretboard, and how to read them off the bass clef... its great as well.

I'm actually reading Bass Guitar for Dummies right now lol and you're totally right. There's a section called "What to play for what key" or something to that tune and talks about some groove skeletons and the like. VERY usefull.

Thanks everyone. So I guess I was over thinking it. I understand the notes on the fretboard...and I know about the chords...I just didn't realize the chord names and key were basically the same thing.

Shouldn't I be more concerned with learning the chords as opposed to the scales? I use the scales for practice mostly for finger exercise and tone recognition.

Cheers,
BT

It's important to know the notes of each type of chord, because you will build your patterns around them, but if you learn the scales you should come away with the knowledge you need as well.

Us old school guys don't play alot of chords on our basses, but I sometimes play two notes at once, and I want them to fit in the chord the rest of the band is playing.

Our rhythm player doesn't have much theory background, and if the band leader says "Key of D," he thinks that D will be the first chord. It often may be the last chord of the song, but doesn't have to be the starting chord. :scowl:

This is going to repeat a lot of stuff that has been already stated in order to stress certain information.

Know your fret board -- that is the most important information I can give. Know your chord voicings (especially roots, fifths, major thirds, and minor thirds, but also sevenths and major sevenths) not necessarily in order to play chords, but so you know what is appropriate to play under chords. Know your major and minor pentatonic patterns for noodling and funkafying and soloing and such.

These things will provide you with a good foundation so that when someone says lets jam in the key of C or Bb or whatever, you will be able.

What did you guys use to remember the notes? It's the hardest thing for me for some reason. Scales, modes, cake, but notes? I just get so lost with the sharps/flats :(

What did you guys use to remember the notes? :(

Do you mean, how can one remember the notes on the fretboard? I dunno. I guess there are a few tricks. You could say the notes as you play them. But thinking about it over time was the key for me.

Sorry if this is a question that I should already have the answer for....but I haven't figured it out yet.

I have just started learning the bass...and along with playing some songs to make practice more fun...I have been trying to learn theory.

My question is....how do I determine where on the fretboard I should be in when someone says " in the key of " C, Bb or whatever?

Cheers,
BT

The answer to this is "It Depends". You playing a bass line, need to do fills, soloing, sightreading, what timbre do you want, and so on. The sweet spot on a bass is the first five frets, but do you know how to play in all 12 keys within the first five frets? So your knowledge and technique come into the decision making. The answer to this question changes with your experience and what you are doing.

Take a look at this:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6703697&postcount=22

Also, check out the link in my sig. Lots of great info there.

OK, here's a question that nobody has asked....Do you have any musical training or play any other instruments? Or are you learning it all from scratch? If it's the latter, I recommend a good teacher, but not just any guy who gives bass lessons in the back of a music store. I've seen a lot of cases where the instructor is just the local guitar or bass hero that knows a lot of hot licks but no theory.

Basic music theory is very important IMHO, for someone who is starting from scratch. That is how you learn the answers to your original questions! It might seem boring when you're anxious to start ripping out some serious playing, but the fundamentals are sooooooo important.

I was fortunate to have taken piano at eight years of age, then sax in junior high. Somewhere around that time, I developed a lust for guitar then bass, so I was already acquainted with fundamentals and the rest came naturally.

Over the years, I've been asked to teach many times and the few times I agreed, I was compelled to start the lessons with fundamentals of music. This was boring to my students as they all just wanted to know "How did you play that lick on this record,etc." I felt I should share the whys and wherefores of music before we even picked up a bass. That's when I stopped giving lessons!!

So, get a good teacher, all the self help music books you can find, train your ear, and try playing with some friends that can share some knowledge with you....good luck!!

OK, here's a question that nobody has asked....Do you have any musical training or play any other instruments? Or are you learning it all from scratch? If it's the latter, I recommend a good teacher, but not just any guy who gives bass lessons in the back of a music store. I've seen a lot of cases where the instructor is just the local guitar or bass hero that knows a lot of hot licks but no theory.

Basic music theory is very important IMHO, for someone who is starting from scratch. That is how you learn the answers to your original questions! It might seem boring when you're anxious to start ripping out some serious playing, but the fundamentals are sooooooo important.

I was fortunate to have taken piano at eight years of age, then sax in junior high. Somewhere around that time, I developed a lust for guitar then bass, so I was already acquainted with fundamentals and the rest came naturally.

Over the years, I've been asked to teach many times and the few times I agreed, I was compelled to start the lessons with fundamentals of music. This was boring to my students as they all just wanted to know "How did you play that lick on this record,etc." I felt I should share the whys and wherefores of music before we even picked up a bass. That's when I stopped giving lessons!!

So, get a good teacher, all the self help music books you can find, train your ear, and try playing with some friends that can share some knowledge with you....good luck!!

Thanks! I am completely self taught. I am trying to learn theory as well as playing the bass at the same time. I live on a cow path in the north...so... not alot of options up here for teachers. Most musicians that I play around with locally have less theory knowledge than I do...and I've only been studying for about 3 months.

Cheers,
BT

Thanks everyone. So I guess I was over thinking it. I understand the notes on the fretboard...and I know about the chords...I just didn't realize the chord names and key were basically the same thing.

Shouldn't I be more concerned with learning the chords as opposed to the scales? I use the scales for practice mostly for finger exercise and tone recognition.

Cheers,
BT

Here's what I think. First you gotta own the major scale. That means you know:

1. What W W H W W W H is.
2. That the key of C has no sharps or flats.
3. Therefore, from 1 and 2, you KNOW that there's a half step between E and F and one between B and C. All others have a whole step between them. [Edited to correct the half step between E and F]

From that you can figure out the notes in any diatonic major scale. After that then you need to know chords and how they are built. The first bit is to know how to construct the basic chords from any diatonic major scale. You need to know things like:

1. A major chord is 1, 3, 5
2. Minor is 1, b3, 5
3. 7th chord is 1, 3, 5, b7 (technically a dominant 7, but most frequently called merely "seventh")
4. Augmented is 1, 3, #5
5. Diminished is 1, b3, b5, bb7 (yep, double flat- which is the same enharmonic note as the 6th, but your life is a lot easier if you start thinking of it right from the start with the correct names).

From that you can get to the heart of what the bass needs to do. Your job is to connect the rhythm with the harmonic and melodic aspects of the music AND to define the harmony.

From this basic information, if you see that a song has D, G, and C chords, it's most likely in the key of G because that scale (G A B C D E F#) gives you those three chords (which are D F# A, G B D, and C E G. Not always, of course, but it's a good bet. And the point is that you'll know that the D chord has F# instead of F natural because that'd be a Dmin. BTW, don't trust me on this- take a pencil and paper and work it all out so you KNOW it!

Now if you know the chords have the notes D F# A, G B D, and C E G, you'll have a really good platform for finding the notes that both support the individual chords and for finding the notes to connect one chord to the next.

BTW, it's a lot easier to do, see, hear, and understand on a bass than it is do write it all out!
jte

I'm actually reading Bass Guitar for Dummies right now lol and you're totally right. There's a section called "What to play for what key" or something to that tune and talks about some groove skeletons and the like. VERY usefull.

Where? What page? :confused:

Here's what I think. First you gotta own the major scale. That means you know:

1. What W W H W W W H is.
2. That the key of C has no sharps or flats.
3. Therefore, from 1 and 2, you KNOW that there's a half step between F and G and one between B and C. All others have a whole step between them.

From that you can figure out the notes in any diatonic major scale. After that then you need to know chords and how they are built. The first bit is to know how to construct the basic chords from any diatonic major scale. You need to know things like:

1. A major chord is 1, 3, 5
2. Minor is 1, b3, 5
3. 7th chord is 1, 3, 5, b7 (technically a dominant 7, but most frequently called merely "seventh")
4. Augmented is 1, 3, #5
5. Diminished is 1, b3, b5, bb7 (yep, double flat- which is the same enharmonic note as the 6th, but your life is a lot easier if you start thinking of it right from the start with the correct names).

From that you can get to the heart of what the bass needs to do. Your job is to connect the rhythm with the harmonic and melodic aspects of the music AND to define the harmony.

From this basic information, if you see that a song has D, G, and C chords, it's most likely in the key of G because that scale (G A B C D E F#) gives you those three chords (which are D F# A, G B D, and C E G. Not always, of course, but it's a good bet. And the point is that you'll know that the D chord has F# instead of F natural because that'd be a Dmin. BTW, don't trust me on this- take a pencil and paper and work it all out so you KNOW it!

Now if you know the chords have the notes D F# A, G B D, and C E G, you'll have a really good platform for finding the notes that both support the individual chords and for finding the notes to connect one chord to the next.

BTW, it's a lot easier to do, see, hear, and understand on a bass than it is do write it all out!
jte

Thanks man. I have learned a bit more lately, regarding this...and your post made things even clearer. The only problem I am still having is know how to implement those chords under the guitar. But I know that will come with time.

Cheers,
BT

Well, if you know the chord tones, and you know what the important notes are (mostly 1 and 5) as your targets, then start with just those. That'll get you into defining the harmony and then let your ears guide you for the other notes. A classic basic walking bass line hits the 1 and 5 on the two strong beats of a measure of 4 (That's one and three) and plays other notes in between. Your basic boogie line ( 1 3 5 6 octave 6 5 3) has exactly that.

jte

Take a look at this:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6703697&postcount=22

LOL, second post overlooked!

Just to summarize, there are quite a few aspects of music you need to know before you can determine the key. Take a look at some of the answers and post more specific questions if you need to.

What did you guys use to remember the notes? It's the hardest thing for me for some reason. Scales, modes, cake, but notes? I just get so lost with the sharps/flats :(

I do a lot of sight-reading lead sheets; 4-5 new songs a week for a few months will really help.

The way I remember is to pick a fret, say 3, and memorize just those 4 notes (G C F Bb.) From that, it isn't hard to remember that a half-step down, fret 2, gets me to the flat of those (Gb/F# B E A), and a half-step up, fret 4, gets me to the sharps (G#/Ab C#/Db F#/Gb B.) Move up a couple of frets and repeat.

Hope this helps.

Here's what I think. First you gotta own the major scale. That means you know:

1. What W W H W W W H is.
2. That the key of C has no sharps or flats.
3. Therefore, from 1 and 2, you KNOW that there's a half step between F and G and one between B and C. All others have a whole step between them.

jte

I know it was a typo but to save confusion that would be E and F

I know it was a typo but to save confusion that would be E and F



DOH!! YES, HUGE TYPO!

I'll fix the original post. Thanks for being my proof-reader.

jte

Making a very broad generalization, if someone says to play in the Key of C, you can play anything in the C Major scale without making a musical fart.
.


This is not true!! :rollno:


You always have to play the chord sequence or you will sound bad or at worst, like a beginner! :hmm:

Take the simplest chord sequence - say a 12-bar Blues in F - so you might think you can play any note from an F Major scale - but if you do not follow the chord movement when it shifts up after 4 bars - you will just sound WRONG!

Ten bucks fo whoever finds the key of this song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN3kDuUno3s

DOH!! YES, HUGE TYPO!

I'll fix the original post. Thanks for being my proof-reader.

jte

No problem! I dont get the chance to be the proof reader often since I am just scratching the surface of theory and reading.

Making a very broad generalization, if someone says to play in the Key of C, you can play anything in the C Major scale without making a musical fart.

For C Major, that is C, D, E, F, G, A, B. You will notice that is 7 of the 12 possible notes (the others being C#, D#, F#, G#, A#, also known as Db, Eb, Gb, Ab, Bb). You should notice that if a note doesn't sound right, you can always move up or down one note to find one that does!

There are, of course, certain notes that sound more right than others. As a bass player you generally want to outline the tones of the chords being played by the other instruments. Certain types of music use "wrong" notes to create a certain sound (blues for example). There are also many types of music which don't follow these ideas at all.That is an excellent broad brush answer!

NO it's not - its first sentence is clearly wrong and misleading! :hmm:

NO it's not - its first sentence is clearly wrong and misleading! :hmm:How so?

This is not true!! :rollno:


You always have to play the chord sequence or you will sound bad or at worst, like a beginner! :hmm:

Take the simplest chord sequence - say a 12-bar Blues in F - so you might think you can play any note from an F Major scale - but if you do not follow the chord movement when it shifts up after 4 bars - you will just sound WRONG!

Did you read this - further up the page..? :eyebrow:

Did you read this - further up the page..? :eyebrow:Bruce, I think you are both right. Your statement is accurate, but it does not contradict Trancefusion's post. You are talking about following chord changes. He's just addressing how to understand the way notes fit in a key signature.

In most cases, when I don't know where the music is going to go, I keep my left (fingering) hand near the middle, generally with my index finger around the 5th fret. That way, if I need a lower note, there are only a few I'd have to move for (on the E string) and if I need to go high, I'm probably not too far away. Welcome to our club!

Jon Liebman
Jon@JonLiebman.com
www.JonLiebman.com

Bruce, I think you are both right. Your statement is accurate, but it does not contradict Trancefusion's post. You are talking about following chord changes. He's just addressing how to understand the way notes fit in a key signature.

Well - he was saying you can play anything from C Major if you are in C - and that is just wrong and very misleading to beginners.

If you as bass player take random notes from the key and imply them as the root of the chord it will sound bad!!

If you don't follow the movement of the chords - say when a Blues in F goes to Bb - then you will just sound bad and it will be a "musical fart"....:p

If you as bass player take random notes from the key and imply them as the root of the chord it will sound bad!!Or maybe good!

If you don't follow the movement of the chords - say when a Blues in F goes to Bb - then you will just sound badSo, which notes in particular would sound OK over the root in F blues, but would be inappropriate to play over the IV - and why?

Or maybe good!


So you think bass lines shoud be down to luck...:eyebrow:


So, which notes in particular would sound OK over the root in F blues, but would be inappropriate to play over the IV - and why?


That's not the point - as bass player you need to be outlining the chord movement or you will not be playing a bass line - just noodling! :hmm:

As bass players we play chord sequences - not keys! :p

I was proud enough of this post that I saved it off just for this occasion!

>>
My shortcut to playing bass in a not-totally-sucking manner. I'm laying this out in black-and-white while acknowledging that I am glossing over a ton of stuff.

To me, the chord progression is the best place to start. Within any chord there are strong notes and weak notes.

Strong notes sound confident but aren't as interesting harmonically. They provide a solid foundation to the music but don't really spice it up as much. Weak notes have the possibility to make things interesting or they can just sound weak. They're more dangerous, but potentially more fulfilling. No guts, no glory.

There are strong places rhythmically to place them, It's generally a good idea to play the root when the chord changes to define the chord change for the listener. Generally it's a good idea to play a strong note on a down beat (one and three in 4/4 time). Other places rhythmically you have a responsibility to fill in with other tones to make it interesting to yourself, your band and your audience.

Usually the strongest notes in a chord are the root, the fifth and dominant seventh. You can make whole bass parts using just those notes over the chord and sound passible. You could be in a band that tours the world with just those tones. They will give you the most bang for the buck. Even when you branch out and move to more interesting tones, these notes will be prominent in your playing.

The next strongest notes are chord tones, the third and the sixth. These are dangerous because you are committing to a major or minor tonality and it sounds awful if you get it wrong. The chord tones are used a lot in jazz and blues but not as often in rock. I'll put the major seventh in this category. Dominant seven chords are more common and I put them in the "strong tones" category. If there's a major seven chord, I'd say it's a chord tone.

Next up come the scale tones, the second and the fourth. Both of these are safe in terms of tonality of the scale, the fourth is "perfect" there are no majors or minors. By second I mean major second - two frets up. A minor second, one fret up, is more chromatic to me. The scale tones usually want to lead your ear to the next chord or they're used in passing, on your way to a stronger tone. To reiterate, you are safe using the second and the fourth with either a major or minor chord because these tones are inside the scale but not in the chord - you aren't committing to a major or minor tonality.

Chromatic tones are the weakest. Minor seconds, the "wrong" third and sixth (and seventh) for the chord and the tri-tone. They are used when you are just passing through or perhaps the key is modulating. They are useful in chord substitions when you want to add spice, but if you don't pull it off they sound like a mistake. Use them with caution.

As with all music theory, this is just a general guideline - rules that have been successfully broken hundreds or thousands of times. But if you're in an unfamiliar situation and either for your own sake or for the sake of the people on the bandstand with you or for the audience, work more in the "strong tones" area and things will at least be firm. As everyone gets more confident start branching into the more interesting tones.

Typical fingerings of intervals:

Root: the named chord - A in an A, Am, A7, etc. It's octave is two strings and two frets up.

Minor second: One fret up from the root (or two strings and one fret down in pitch).

Major second: Two frets up from the root (or two strings down in pitch and the same fret).

Minor third: Three frets up from the root or one string up and two frets down in pitch.

Major third: One string up and one fret down in pitch.

Perfect fourth: Up one string on the same fret or one string down and two frets down.

Tritone (aka augmented fourth or diminished fifth): One string up and one fret up or one string down and one fret down.

Perfect fifth: Up one string and two frets or down one string, same fret.

Minor sixth: Up two strings and down two frets or down one string and up one fret.

Major sixth: Up two strings down one fret or down one string and up two frets.

Dominant (minor) seventh: Up two strings, same fret or same string, down two frets.

Major seventh: Up two strings and one fret or same string, down one fret.

Over three strings you have two easy places to get the root, the fifth and the dominant seventh:

Root and it's octave up: Up two strings and up two frets.

Fifth: One string and two frets up or same fret one string down.

Major seventh: Two strings up same fret or two frets down same string.

So using octaves you have six very solid notes at your disposal in very close proximity.

All of this is to encourage you to branch out, but if you want to get things going quickly, that's one way to do it.

KO<<

To me, the chord progression is the best place to start.
<


I strongly approve of this approach!! :)

That's not the point - as bass player you need to be outlining the chord movement or you will not be playing a bass line - just noodling! :hmm:


I stand by what I said 100%. I meant it as a broad generalization in music.

Not following the root during chord changes in a 12 bar blues will not create what I consider a "musical fart" - A note that stands out and simply does not seem to belong.

I propose that you thinking that you must follow the root comes more from your having heard a 12 bar blues progression 9 bazillion times in your life, cementing what "sounds right". But, it would certainly be possible to create an good-sounding bassline around the 12-bar blues progression that didn't hammer on the root on ever 1st beat. I also went on to say that bass players should focus on chord tones - which is exactly what you are saying.

I also mentioned specifically blues as well as other types of music falling outside of this generalization. In many blues progressions, the lead is playing on the blues scale which includes notes outside of any single specific key. The bass is often playing all dominant 7th chords along with this - again, the traditional singular key does not have a flattened 7th in every mode. One could propose that the key is changing with every chord change, or that blues doesn't fall into the concept of a key very well at all.

I wholeheartedly recommend a beginner trying to develop a bass line to start with the chord roots, but it sounded like the original poster didn't know what those chords were.

And last, but not least, many of the well-known bass players today got there by noodling, not by playing real bass lines :D

I never said that you should stick to the root - but just choosing a random note from a key, has the possibility of blatant mistakes or at best a poor-sounding bass line that will likely get you classed as a beginner or no-hoper! :hmm:

Bruce-
Not a fan of the Harmolodic?

Bruce-
Not a fan of the Harmolodic?

Well, we are talking about giving basic advice to a beginner here...:p


Is that what you tell them that when you make a clam at a Blues Jam!!?? ;)

Damn right!
Ornette, baby...I can't help it if you can't hang!
;)

Seriously, though...Wooten did something cool (IMO) on his Groove Workshop DVD. In the key of Gmin, he played a solo using only the 5 notes NOT contained in Gmin (he used G#-B-C#-D#-E) & then he played a solo using only those notes within Gmin.
The 1st solo sounded 'better'.
Why? Solo_1 better utilized his "2 through 10" (includes, feel, dynamics, tone, etc) while Solo_2, with all the correct notes, did not.

Yup - it's very easy to show people, how just playing the notes of a notional key is not enough!