By proper, i mean technically correct, not "Arrabian scale," "Jewish scale," or anything like that.
The best name i could come up with is Ionian b9 b13.
It's do, ra, mi, fa, sol, le, ti, do.
So almost the quite-famous mix b9 b13, but with a ti (major 7) in there too.
If you don't think in solfeg, it's 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7, 8.
is there some sort of 2 part name for it? such as diminished wholetone (i know it's not that but anyway)
it sounds great btw, try playing it.


many thanks,
Alex

I've heard it called the "Byzantine scale", the "double harmonic minor (major)" and the "double spanish phrygian". You could analyze it in terms of its tetrachords - two harmonic minor tetrachords stacked on top of each other. It wouldn't be analyzed as a specific modality with a greek name because of the consecutive half-step intervals between the 7, 1 and b2. This creates some problems creative harmonic structures within the mode, for example, the diatonic I major 7 chord would have tension b9. Pandiatonic structures are very difficult. Really, only modes from the major, harmonic minor, harmonic major and melodic minor will get the Greek names. Everything else has consecutive half-step intervals, or isn't 7-notes (and if it is, it is a subset of one of the diminished octatonic scales).

Wow, thanks very much, that's exactly what I needed to know. I think i'm going to stick with the double harmonic minor (major) name for it.
so do no modes from the scales have consecutive half steps? I never thought of it that way.

Just when I think I know so much - someone comes along and proves I know so little...*sigh!

Awesome HaVIC5.

Yeah, I'm taking a class on this stuff right now, and its blowing my mind. In order for something to be considered a tonic system (or, modality, or "key"), you can't really have consecutive half step intervals because it screws up the whole harmonic aspect of it. Having consecutive half-steps in a chord creates an extremely dissonant cluster that's only useful for specific effect, or if you're all into the weird dissonant atonal 20th century classical music. Chords in thirds become impossible to analyze at some point, for example, if you built a seventh chord up from the third degree of the double harmonic minor (major), what would you call it? Minor diminished 7? You couldn't call it a minor 6 chord, because the sixth up from the chord is do, the tonic. If you're like me and just dig cool sounds, it might not be the best option. If you consider all 7-note (and 8-note for that matter) scales that don't have consecutive half-steps, they come out to be...

Modes of the Major Scale

Ionian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian: 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

Modes of the Melodic Minor

Melodic Minor (Ionian b3): 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Dorian b2 (Phrygian natural 6): 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Lydian #5 (Lydian Augmented): 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7
Lydian b7 (Lydian Dominant, Mixolydian #4): 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7
Mixolydian b13: 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian natural 2: 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
Superlocrian (Altered, diminished wholetone) 1 b2 b3 b4 (3) b5 b6 b7

Modes of the Harmonic Minor

Harmonic Minor (Aeolian natural 7) 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
Locrian natural 6: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7
Ionian #5 (Ionian Augmented): 1 2 3 4 #5 6 7
Dorian #4: 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7
Mixolydian b2, b6 (Mixolydian b9, b13 in chord/scale theory) : 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian #2 (written usually as lydian #9): 1 #2 3 #4 5 6 7
Diminished altered (Locrian b4, bb7, or HYPERlocrian): 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 bb7

Modes of the Harmonic Major

Harmonic Major (Ionian b6): 1 2 3 4 5 b6 7
Dorian b5: 1 2 b3 4 b5 6 b7
Mixolydian b9, #9, b13 (kind of - you'll hear it this way, but technically this is Phyrgian b4): 1 b2 b3 (#9) b4 (3) 5 b6 b7
Melodic Minor #4 (Lydian diminished): 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian b2 (b9): 1 b2 3 4 5 6 b7
Lydian Augmented #9 (HYPERLYDIAN): 1 #2 3 #4 #5 6 7
Locrian Diminished (Locrian bb7): 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 bb7

Then there are the TWO 8-note scales without consecutive half-step intervals, which are...

WH diminished (diminished octatonic, symmetric diminished) 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 6 7
HW diminished (dominant octatonic, symmetric dominant) 1 b2 b3 3 #4 5 6 b7

From these two scales come all other possible combinations of 7-note scales without consecutive intervals, of which there are 14. All you have to do is just remove one note and get modes such as the scale 1 b2 b3 #4 5 6 b7, which I guess I might call phyrgian #4 natural 6. There are some pretty cool ones there, but most retain the "flavor" of the regular octatonic diminished scale. It's nice to see them all written out so you can see that there is in fact a limited number of useful scales for tonic systems (full pieces of music) rather than attempt to glean these useful scales from a repository such as the bass grimoire or whathaveyou.

Whoa... holy f[edit] s[edit]...

Where are you learning this from, HaVIC5?

Thanks for posting all that modal information, HaVIC5. I'll have to go over some of the more exotic scales tomorrow with my bass in hand.

I had to look up the Octatonic scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octatonic_scale) on Wikipedia, so I linked it in case anyone else is interested. (I wasn't sure what you meant by "WH" and "HW", but I get it now.)

You're getting all this from Berklee, right?

Yeah, but it's not for your average Berklee student. It's definitely an elective class called "advanced modal harmony" taught by a straight g named Rick Kress, and most of this information I've kind of gleaned by myself. It gave me the inspiration, though, to check it out.

Modes of the Major Scale

Ionian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian: 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7


May I ask a question? Probably a stupid one for most of you...but not for me.

In the Dorian scale. I assume you flatten the 3rd and 7th notes. But if the starting (root) note is A...that would mean the 3rd note is C. There is no Cb. Would I just play B again...or C anyways.

Cheers,
BT

May I ask a question? Probably a stupid one for most of you...but not for me.

In the Dorian scale. I assume you flatten the 3rd and 7th notes. But if the starting (root) note is A...that would mean the 3rd note is C. There is no Cb. Would I just play B again...or C anyways.

Cheers,
BT

I find it less confusing to think of intervals relative to the root rather than the specific notes. When reading "1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7" the un-modified numbers are all major intervals, and the "b" is a "flatted" or "minor" interval (or you might call it "diminished" if it was the 5 or 2, but in any case it is one semitone lower than the major interval).

In the Dorian example you asked about, using a root note of A, the C is already a "b3" interval, so that is what you'd play. The major "3" would be a C#.

Hope this helps...

EDIT: To put it more in terms of notes, you could think of it this way: Start with A major (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_major), which is:
A B C# D E F# G#

Then, to get A Dorian, flatten the 3rd and 7th by a semitone:
A B C D E F# G

I find it less confusing to think of intervals relative to the root rather than the specific notes. When reading "1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7" the un-modified numbers are all major intervals, and the "b" is a "flatted" or "minor" interval (or you might call it "diminished" if it was the 5 or 2, but in any case it is one semitone lower than the major interval).

In the Dorian example you asked about, using a root note of A, the C is already a "b3" interval, so that is what you'd play. The major "3" would be a C#.

Hope this helps...

EDIT: To put it more in terms of notes, you could think of it this way: Start with A major (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_major), which is:
A B C# D E F# G#

Then, to get A Dorian, flatten the 3rd and 7th by a semitone:
A B C D E F# G

Thanks. I got a bit confused. I forgot the rule of TTsTTTs for a major scale.

Cheers,
BT

In Carnatic music, there are raga systems (which are more similar to greek modal systems).

1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7

would be called Raga Ganasamavarali. You wouldn't ever play up and down a scale like this though. Usually it's performed with at least vocalist (or some instrument doing the melody), a rhythm accompaniment and a drone instrument (that description seems very much like what the ancient Greeks did, but it sounds very different). It's worth checking out if you guys are interested.

May I ask a question? Probably a stupid one for most of you...but not for me.

In the Dorian scale. I assume you flatten the 3rd and 7th notes. But if the starting (root) note is A...that would mean the 3rd note is C. There is no Cb. Would I just play B again...or C anyways.

Cheers,
BT

You bet there is, actually.

That's just confusing him

When you see a formula like 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 (Dorian) it's refering to lowering the notes of the MAJOR scale, not just the letter names. So when you see something like that for A dorian, you first take the A major scale, which is A B C# D E F# G# A, and then lower the corresponding degrees. A dorian therefore would be spelt A B C D E F# G A. The scale 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 bb7 (A locrian diminished) would be spelt A Bb C D Eb F Gb, etc.

Confusing to say the least...but much appreciatted having things spelled out.

Does anyone know where there is a place that has the major and possibly the minor scales all typed out so I can print and study them?

Cheers,
BT

Post #5

Thanks....but thats not exactly what I meant. Thats cool....I can write them out by hand I guess.

Cheers,
BT