I have heard the term "Math Rock" before but just figured those perople did not know what they where talking about and that they meant "Prog. Rock". I have done a little looking around and it seams that Prog and Math Rocks are different...

What is the difference between the 4 Progressive type rock styles:
Prog. Rock
Math Rock
Post Rock
Art Rock
:help:

Wikipedia
Progressive rock (often shortened to prog or prog rock) is a form of rock music that evolved in the late 1960s and early 1970s as part of a "mostly British attempt to elevate rock music to new levels of artistic credibility." The term "art rock" is often used interchangeably with "progressive rock", but while there are crossovers between the two genres, they are not identical.[1]

Math rock is a rhythmically complex, guitar-based style of experimental rock music

Post-rock is a genre of alternative rock characterized by the use of musical instruments commonly associated with rock music, but using rhythms, harmonies, melodies, timbre, and chord progressions that are not found in rock tradition. It is the use of 'rock instrumentation' for non-rock purposes. Practitioners of the genre's style typically produce instrumental music

Art rock is a term describing a subgenre of rock music that tends to have "experimental or avant-garde influences" and emphasizes "novel sonic texture.

I can read wikipedia too.

to me, all of those words say the same thing. rock instruments playing odd time signatures... what is the difference?

"Progressive" was first used back in the late 1960's to describe some of the newer, more experimental music being produced by bands in the psychedelic vein (the word "progressive" had none of the LSD/drug connotations of "psychedelic" and could therefore be taken more "seriously"). Artists who had previously done more-primitive electrified R&B started incorporating exotic influences, instrumentation, arrangements, and song structures into their work. Classical, jazz, Eastern, and avant-garde forms combined with the ever-evolving rock music that was itself quickly maturing beacuse of new technological and and technical advances in instrumentation, amplification, recording, etc. "Progressive" took on a new meaning for many as the tag continued to be applied to the portion of bands that went in the specific general direction we more commonly associate with the term today, as well as to newer bands inspired and influenced by those bands. Many of the first wave of "prog" bands didn't refer to themselves as "prog"; they just thought of themselves as psychedelic or spacerock or whatever.

"Art rock" is just used to describe rock bands who were being experiemental or avant garde, but who weren't necessarily trying to produce huge technically complicated superlong psychedelic suites. They weren't necessarily trying to advance things or impress anyone, they just wanted to make new sounds and have fun.

"Art rock" and "prog rock" aren't two parallel mutually exclusive genre terms, nor is one a subset of the other.

"Math rock" is a term used to describe a type of rock music that doesn't follow traditional, intuitive, or symmetrical time signatures or rhythms. The compositions are often constructed by the arbitrary selection of numbers for the sake of cleverness (e.g., play this part in 13/8 time signature three times, then play this part in 9/8 five times, then play this part in 5/4 six times, etc.) The purposefulness behind the music is different than other forms of rock music, and so it gets lost on most people, or it doesn't appeal to people who don't find such things impressive and who aren't interested in the "cleverness" and technical prowess needed for such a band to play in a cohesive fashion. I guess it all depends on what you listen to music for.

Post-rock is vague term for music where the bands use typical rock instruments and amplifiers, but the music they make is not in the tradition of rock. The rhythms, textures, melodies, harmonies etc. are selected for their own sake, to create new and often unorthodox sounds and moods. Some bands in this vein may incorporate math rock as an influence, while others definitely do not. Some create soundscapes of alien beauty, some dissonant layers of noise, and some combine the two. Some of it can seem quite boring to many, but some of it can be very enchanting.

Prog rock is what it's always been. It's dead.

Math rock is time signature wankery above and beyond prog rockers' wildest dreams. Switching sigs every measure and such. There is always tapping. Always.

Post rock consists of veeery slow buildups. It's pretty spaced out.

Art rock is what people call avant garde bands that don't fit into the above categories, such as Sleepytime Gorilla Museum or The Book of Knots.

You tend to think that Math rock time signature wankery is impressive until you hear a performance (and see the score) of the last tableaux from the Rite of Spring. Then, all of a sudden, 5 musicians nailing those alternating random time signatures seems a whole lot less impressive than 125 musicians doing the same thing, and for music whose purpose isn't to show off.

most subgenre labels are disliked by the artists themselves, and usually made up by journalists, internet geeks and other also-rans... why are some people so obsessed with slapping a label on something and sticking it in a pigeonhole?

I think if someone tried to start a discussion with me about the difference between cybergrind and japanoise, or 'prog rock' and 'math rock', i'd probably stab myself in the head with a fork...

Prog rock is what it's always been. It's dead.


:eek: Don't let John Turner see that! :p

most subgenre labels are disliked by the artists themselves, and usually made up by journalists, internet geeks and other also-rans... why are some people so obsessed with slapping a label on something and sticking it in a pigeonhole?

I think if someone tried to start a discussion with me about the difference between cybergrind and japanoise, or 'prog rock' and 'math rock', i'd probably stab myself in the head with a fork...

I agree, but stereotypes and genres CAN be used as gateways to exploring new music. I'm somewhat of an old-timer (at least I've been out of touch with the search and exploration of new music until recently) and had never heard of "Post Rock" or "Math Rock" until I joined Talkbass. Some simple searches of these two terms turned up tons of new bands for me to listen to.

+1 to lunarpollen's summary.

Odd time signatures aside, prog has the most emphasis on exquisite music theory for melodic purposes wheras the musical aesthetics of the other listed genres hinge more upon experimental sounds. I love Meshuggah (math) and they are engaging due to their rhythmic capabilites, but I wouldn't say that they're nearly as musical as King Crimson (prog) ....

Prog rock is what it's always been. It's dead.

Math rock is time signature wankery above and beyond prog rockers' wildest dreams. Switching sigs every measure and such. There is always tapping. Always.

Post rock consists of veeery slow buildups. It's pretty spaced out.

Art rock is what people call avant garde bands that don't fit into the above categories, such as Sleepytime Gorilla Museum or The Book of Knots.


Close enough. I mean, there are lots of exceptions in each genre, but that's just gonna make things even more complicated.

Prog Rock came from Yes. Math Rock came from King Crimson. Post Rock came from early Floyd. Art Rock came from the Velvet Underground.

It's better to think of the terms as descriptive labels rather than as precisely-defined genres.

Personally, I can't stand math rock or any music where the rhythm or time signature are chosen arbitrarily or via picking numbers. But that's just my personal taste. I like music where the elements are selected by how they sound, how they feel, etc. Sure, sometimes being arbitrary, random, or mathematically experimental can yield an interesting-sounding result, but music constructed almost completely by such methods with little or no care to texture, harmony, melody, chord progression, mood, etc. is totally uninteresting to me. And I enjoy a lot of weird, experimental, and unpredictable music!

HaVIC5 makes a good point above. I feel similarly about a lot of jazz. What may seem impressive to many people when a small ensemble of avant garde jazz musicians get together and jam in a most clever fashion, showing off their individual skills, is nothing compared to the live sound of an old-school, professional, tight big band playing a great sophisticated arrangement of a swing tune, where the primary focus isn't on the players but on making the song sound great.

101 Rules of prog metal (http://progmetalblog.blogspot.com/2006/11/101-rules-of-prog-metal.html)

As someone who proudly plays in a PROGRESSIVE ROCK BAND, I can verify that rumors concerning our demise are GREATLY exaggerated... and judging from the ongoing success of bands like Dream Theater (we do some DT covers), Porcupine Tree, etc., progressive rock is very much alive and enjoying our "third wave."

So what is "prog rock"? It is distinguished by a few fundamental aspects, namely structure, instruments, its representatives and its goals.

Basic structure of prog rock:
While there are variations, most prog rock is highly structured (closer to classical in its construction than freer "jam band" music) and avoids the typical verse-chorus-verse-bridge-chorus formula utilized in other popular forms. More than anything else, prog is known for its music in that it tends to have extended instrumental sections that often feature irregular time signatures (including polyrhythms), repeating musical and lyrical themes, counter melodies, key changes, varying dynamics, and instrumental virtuosity.

Prog songs tend to be long (our originals are about 7 minutes), but some prog pieces are seconds long up to 45 minutes or more. Prog also tends to avoid the usual topic of many other rock forms (partying, dancing and getting laid) in favor of other themes, some of which are everything from social concerns to Greco-Roman mythology and even science fiction.

Instruments:
Prog utilizes the typical instruments that other rock and pop music forms use (guitars, bass, drums, keyboards, vocals), but often augments these instruments with bass pedals, elaborate percussion, mellotrons and even wind instruments. "What has two mellotron solos, tubular bells and bass pedals in a twenty-five minute time slot? A prog song." lol :D

Goals:
While I certainly won't presume to speak for everyone who makes prog rock (and there are a lot of us out there), to me the goal is to make music without limitations, meaning limitations of song length, time signature, dynamics, topics, technical ability, tempo, etc. Prog, IMHO, attempts to PROGRESS beyond the self-imposed limits of much of rock (4/4 time, 3-4 minutes long, simple lyrics [party/dance/get laid :hyper: ], 1-4-5 intervals, verse/chorus/verse etc.) in favor of non-traditional expressions.

Representatives:
It is argued that the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper is the first proto-prog effort, and that may be correct, but you really see the beginnings of prog rock with bands like the Moody Blues and their Days of Future Passed album. Beyond this, first wave prog bands include the greats: Genesis (prior to Abacab), Yes (prior to 90125), ELP, Camel, Rush (prior to Signals IMHO), U.K., Jethro Tull (prior to "A"), Renaissance (prior to Azur d'Or) and King Crimson (prior to Discipline). Some other artists may be called "progressively influenced" if not considered true "progressive rock," such as Queen (prior to News of the World), Pink Floyd, The Alan Parsons Project, The (Dixie) Dregs and even some of Frank Zappa's work (Joe's Garage comes to mind).

After the collapse of 70's classic prog, there were some new or "second wave" acts who truly carried the prog torch like Marillion, Pallas, and Pendragon. As the 90's began and the grunge movement sent the rock record industry back to the garage again, a "third (and current) wave" of prog music began with bands such as Dream Theater, Spock's Beard, (later) Porcupine Tree, Planet X, Transatlantic, The Flower Kings (and my band... yay.. :eek: ) Some artists such as Steve Vai and Billy Sheehan continue to make music that may rightly be considered as progressive rock, even thought they are not necessarily considered as prog artists.

Criticisms:
Some prog music has been rightly criticized as being overblown and even pretentious. In the 70's, the "Golden Era" of prog, excellent bands like ELP became victims of their own excess as prog music got too complicated and over the top. When music shifted back to the garage and the kid with a Les Paul knock off hammering out bar chords, the music industry was blown away by punk rock (a similar thing happened after the androgynous 80's when grunge kicked everyone's lip glossed ass) - and few prog bands could reinvent themselves to adapt. So many went the way of the dinosaur... but not all. Yes reinvented themselves on 90125, and Genesis was commandeered by Phil Collins, the 80's poster child for unimaginable pop success, and King Crimson took on an entirely new, streamlined sound to survive.

On the other hand, prog is responsible for music that no other genre could claim, whether it is Yes' "Close to the Edge" or Liquid Tension Experiment's "When the Water Breaks." It frequently exhibits the technical prowess of jazz fusion while remaining in the overall genre of "rock." It is unique among other rock forms in that it easily stretches from classical to jazz, world, folk, and (often) speed metal. Prog is continually striving to break new ground, incorporate new forms, and make it's appeal to the mind rather than the feet or the genitalia (not that there's anything wrong with that... it's just not prog!) It is my favorite genre to listen to because of its depth, technical proficiency and daring originality - even when it falls short.

Despite the claim that we've always been dead (lol!), I am happy to say that the future of prog is very bright, even if record companies don't commonly dole out platinum records to prog artists like they do to people like Britney Spears or Nickelback. As long as people are interested in pushing musical and technical boundaries, prog rock will continue to be made, played and enjoyed by MANY.

I'm outta here but I AM FAR FROM DEAD.... :bassist:

101 Rules of prog metal (http://progmetalblog.blogspot.com/2006/11/101-rules-of-prog-metal.html)

Yeah - we've printed this off and it's on the wall at our practice space... toooooooooooo funny (and true!) :D:D:D

How about naming a band to fit each genre of music listed above?All these types of music confuses me.

@rtav: great post.

How about naming a band to fit each genre of music listed above?All these types of music confuses me.
That's kind of tough these days considering most groups along these lines would fall into every category given a specific song or album, but here are examples of each (in MY opinion) with bold names being my favs within each genre:

Prog Rock (traditional or "golden era"): Genesis, Yes, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Rush

Prog Rock (modern era, AKA "Prog Metal" or "Neo-prog"): Dream Theater, Symphony X, Spocks Beard, Marillion, Vanden Plas, King's X, Fates Warning, Savatage, Opeth (where it starts drifting into Black/Death/Goth hybrids of Rock)

Traditional and Modern Prog in one package: Bigelf These guys are new and AMAZING, so I'm giving them a shout-out. They're all the Prog Rock bands above + The Beatles mixed together.

Now I think "Math Rock" and Mathcore might be different concepts...I'm more familiar with Mathcore (AKA "Prog or Technical Metalcore"), which might include: Dillinger Escape Plan, Protest the Hero, Between the Buried and Me, SikTh, and August Burns Red.

Post-Rock (I think ambient + jazz + rock + electronic here): Sigur Ros, Godspeed You! Black Emperor, Cul de Sac, Explosions in the Sky, Isis

Art Rock (kinda broad genre, but IMO): Kate Bush, Radiohead, TV on the Radio, Bloc Party, Queens of the Stone Age, Deerhoof, Stereolab

Again, a lot of these new Rock genres are subjective, and IMO only exist for sake of comparison since so many bands do so many different things nowadays. It's tough to provide names of "Bands who sound like so-and-so" without having convenient labels.

Good list -MK-
Since you're not familear with Math Rock I'll see if I can assist:

Don Cabellaro
Battles
North of America
Q and not U
Drive Like Jehu
Hella