I'm eternally searching for shoring up my timing. Here's my question. Is it better to practice to a drum loop or a click track to help my timing? Or both?

Does anyone out there have regimens geared specifically towards timing?

I don't play keyboard but I bought one mainly for its wide set of drum patterns when practicing other instruments. The added value of course is that whe it's jamming time, one mostly finds a keyboard player in the group - and then it can be used for what it's actually built.

I like a drum machine that can export the track to a wav file and then I plug it into audacity where I record my bass with the drum as a second track. That way I can break what's recorded into two separate tracks and see if I'm ahead of the beat, behind, or right on. From there I adjust as necessary for the vibe of the song....

Metronome when no computer is present though. All in all though, I just like the whole "record and play back" to see exactly where I stand. I feel the recording can be easier to critique at least an hour after recording. (Gives time to separate yourself from the playing and just hear it more "raw" IMO")

:)

I was told and then read in a book by Ed Friedland that its better to practice to a click track rather than to a drum machine. The drum machine can lull you into a false sense of security by providing so much rhythm that you'll think you're playing has a good groove when it isn't really swinging at all. I didn't agree with it at first so I experimented and when I took the drums out of the track my line wasn't grooving at all.

A metronome gives you results right as you are playing, and you do not really need to record yourself in order to know if you are in time or not when using one. This is because your feedback is not hearing the clicks because you are playing in perfect time with them, so you do not hear them.

Using a drum machine, or drummer for that matter, will cause you to have to record yourself to know if you are in time with them or not.

You need to practice stuff to the metronome that has lots of notes that have hang time, and notes that are tied to notes that are not of the same time.

Example:
1/4 tied to two 1/8th notes, and mixtures of this with 1/16th notes mixed into the ties as well.

... Because just playing four 1/4 notes in a measure that is in 4/4 time is not really challenging your timing skills at all. Mix it up a lot and you will have perfect timing in no time at all.

Using all of these methods makes sense to me; they all have advantages, and utilizing different practice methods will make you a stronger player. I think a criticism of drum machines, by some, has been that they are so accurate that the player can become lazy and not concentrate on keeping the beat. I think that's nonsense. Just be sure to listen constantly, and consistently, which any good bass player should be able to do, no matter what style of music is being played, with any type of musical group. I'll add one more practicing method: no metronome or machines, just use your ears and tap your foot - make your own steady, solid beat!

Have fun, and feel the beat!
Joel

One more suggestion:
I purchased a Boss DB-90 drum machine about a year ago. It can be used as a straight metronome and as a drum machine. I like to use the pre-recorded patterns for playing along, as a diversion from the regular metronome function. If you're just starting out, I think it would be better to buy a basic metronome, and save the drum machine for later. However, if you have more playing experience, including playing with groups, then I think the DB-90, or something similar, would be a cool addition to your gear list. Having multiple accompaniment choices is ideal, IMO.

Whichever version you own, try practicing with one click/beat for each note, and also with one click for every 2 beats (if you're in 4/4 time) or one beat for the first beat of the measure (especially if you're in 3/4 time). For uneven time signatures, I generally use one click for each downbeat (i.e. 5/4, 7/4 time, and so on).

Joel :bassist:

One more suggestion:
I purchased a Boss DB-90 drum machine about a year ago. It can be used as a straight metronome and as a drum machine. I like to use the pre-recorded patterns for playing along, as a diversion from the regular metronome function. If you're just starting out, I think it would be better to buy a basic metronome, and save the drum machine for later. However, if you have more playing experience, including playing with groups, then I think the DB-90, or something similar, would be a cool addition to your gear list. Having multiple accompaniment choices is ideal, IMO.

Whichever version you own, try practicing with one click/beat for each note, and also with one click for every 2 beats (if you're in 4/4 time) or one beat for the first beat of the measure (especially if you're in 3/4 time). For uneven time signatures, I generally use one click for each downbeat (i.e. 5/4, 7/4 time, and so on).

Joel :bassist:

+1

i might add that it is especially helpful to play with the metronome clicking on beats 2 and 4 (in 4/4). if you can get a metronome to sound funky that means you're groovin.

I know someone who used to practice at really slow tempo's with a click. They would then turn the click off part way through practice and keep playing for a set amount of bars with out the click, when the click came back in you would certainly know if you we're in time or not! A hard, but very useful practice routine that helps develop discipline.

I was told and then read in a book by Ed Friedland that its better to practice to a click track rather than to a drum machine. The drum machine can lull you into a false sense of security by providing so much rhythm that you'll think you're playing has a good groove when it isn't really swinging at all. I didn't agree with it at first so I experimented and when I took the drums out of the track my line wasn't grooving at all.

Excelent point, I have been practicing with my iPod, I'm sure I am not grooving when I think I am too. I have one of those Korg pandora things I think I will start using the click alone.

I was told and then read in a book by Ed Friedland that its better to practice to a click track rather than to a drum machine. The drum machine can lull you into a false sense of security by providing so much rhythm that you'll think you're playing has a good groove when it isn't really swinging at all. I didn't agree with it at first so I experimented and when I took the drums out of the track my line wasn't grooving at all.

That's funny. Because his book "Bass Grooves" talks about how to program and use your drum machine for practice! :hmm:

depends what i'm doing... if i'm practicing scales or arpeggios I'll set a very simple quarter note bass drum - snare drum boom-bap type thing... which allows me to subdivide the beat however I want, and then gradually increase the tempo

I don't see any harm practicing to drums (although I take the point about a busy drum track covering up your own lack of groove) - i'll be playing along with drums when I leave the woodshed, so I might as well practice with something that sounds like drums right from the start.. (if I was a studio guy who made his living playing to a click, then I'd probably practice with a click)

a good way to force yourself out of reliance on the drum machine/metronome is to set it to half the tempo, and feel the pulse on the 2 and the 4... so it's acting like a typical snare pattern... your challenge is to meet up with it correctly... mix it up with things like this - set it so you only get a click/beat on ONE beat per bar... then try subdividing the beats in different ways and see if you can land back on the click correctly

IF you've got any drummer friends find out if they've got a book called IT'S ABOUT TIME - forget the author. It's got a whole section on Time exercises that are worthwhile having a look at - starts off with dropping a single click from a beat, then two, then a bar etc etc.

Working with that for 10 minutes a day will bring your time very quickly.

Also Ed Friedland's book THE WORKING BASSIST'S TOOLKIT has got a whole section (that are a collection of his articles from Bass Player Magazine) on ways of using the metronome to improve your time.

Thanks guys. Ed Friedland's book sounds good. It sounds like both are a good idea if I can come up with the drills.

I like to use something programmable, that way I can have it drop out every so often. For example, there might be two bars of click, then a bar of silence. Then maybe a few more bars of click and then a few more bars of silence. When the click comes back in, is your timing still where it should be? I like doing that, since it tests you to see if your timing is being internalized.

Funny that this came up. I was looking at my next book purchase for fun. On Amazon I previewed both of Ed Friedland's books. The groove book is all about using a drum machine to develop your groove and the toolkit kinda leads you to work with a metronome because the points made above. For me I am going to do a bit of both. I probably will get the groove book first because it sounds fun to mess around with the drum machine and explore that angle.

Both (which I believe is Ed Friedland's approach too). It depends on what you're working on. Now, the OP says "... I'm eternally searching for shoring up my timing." To me, that means a metronome (of click track, or drum machine set to give you just a snare hit). And use Ed's fine instructions on different ways to do it, but the basics are to NOT use it on every beat. In order to get your time together YOU have to provide the time, not the 'nome or machine. So, if you set the 'nome to only give you beats 2 and 4, you have to supply the 1 and 3. That's your job as bassist anyway! And if you mess it up, the 'nome will kick you all over the block.

But to work on grooves and the interplay between the drums and bass, use a drum machine programmed to give you the characteristics of the groove. But that's NOT the same as learning time at all!!!

jte

Both (which I believe is Ed Friedland's approach too). It depends on what you're working on. Now, the OP says "... I'm eternally searching for shoring up my timing." To me, that means a metronome (of click track, or drum machine set to give you just a snare hit). And use Ed's fine instructions on different ways to do it, but the basics are to NOT use it on every beat. In order to get your time together YOU have to provide the time, not the 'nome or machine. So, if you set the 'nome to only give you beats 2 and 4, you have to supply the 1 and 3. That's your job as bassist anyway! And if you mess it up, the 'nome will kick you all over the block.

But to work on grooves and the interplay between the drums and bass, use a drum machine programmed to give you the characteristics of the groove. But that's NOT the same as learning time at all!!!

jte

Good point. I'd never thought of it that way. Maybe that's why I'm eternally looking to shore up my timing. I'm too worried about playing to the click track (each click) or the drum track (the groove). If I understand this correctly, what you are saying is the background, click track or drum, needs to compliment my efforts at timing, not do them for me.

I guess I've always thought of a groove and timing to be the same (but in the back of my mind I knew they were different).

Fortunately, the tool I'm using technically, the Boss BR-600 does both drum-tracks and metronome. It sounds like I work up a good practice mix for timing with clicks edited out on the metronome.

Then set up a practice regiment based on drum tracks for groove.

Hopefully I'll get better at both!

IF you've got any drummer friends find out if they've got a book called IT'S ABOUT TIME - forget the author. It's got a whole section on Time exercises that are worthwhile having a look at - starts off with dropping a single click from a beat, then two, then a bar etc etc.

Working with that for 10 minutes a day will bring your time very quickly.

Also Ed Friedland's book THE WORKING BASSIST'S TOOLKIT has got a whole section (that are a collection of his articles from Bass Player Magazine) on ways of using the metronome to improve your time.

It's About Time by Fred Dinkins and Joe Testa (Paperback - Sep 2003)

Excerpt - Back Cover: "... The play-along tracks and the bonus "Time Maze" track offers an opportunity ... "That's what this book is all about: time. It's about time there is a book about time. ..."

This is from an Amazon search. Does it sound like the book you're talking about? The excerpt text sounds about right for what you were describing. If so, I think I'll make and investment in both this book and Ed Friedlands.

I like to use something programmable, that way I can have it drop out every so often. For example, there might be two bars of click, then a bar of silence. Then maybe a few more bars of click and then a few more bars of silence. When the click comes back in, is your timing still where it should be? I like doing that, since it tests you to see if your timing is being internalized.

Sounds like I need to spend some time with my Boss Br-600's manual! Great idea.

Hey Art

Yeah that's the book - Fred Dinkins.
It's aimed at drummers - obviously - but the section on Time is something that you could expand into a whole practice routine.

You can also take a quick test to see how good your time actually is - which my so called drummer friend did to me! - he cued up the CD track with the longest pause (I think 4 bars) and the slowest tempo (60BPM) and challenged me to clap along and come in on the 1.

Having to fork out £20 for losing the bet was nearly as much of a blow as not hitting the 1 dead on (I was not far out - but man I was out. I was convinced I was gonna nail that sucker!) Needless to say I've incorporated stuff from that book into my own routines since then!

Next time round I'm gonna bet him £50!
(he doesn't know I bought the book!)

But I don't think it's expensive - it's worth getting IMO.

Hey Art

Yeah that's the book - Fred Dinkins.
It's aimed at drummers - obviously - but the section on Time is something that you could expand into a whole practice routine.

You can also take a quick test to see how good your time actually is - which my so called drummer friend did to me! - he cued up the CD track with the longest pause (I think 4 bars) and the slowest tempo (60BPM) and challenged me to clap along and come in on the 1.

Having to fork out £20 for losing the bet was nearly as much of a blow as not hitting the 1 dead on (I was not far out - but man I was out. I was convinced I was gonna nail that sucker!) Needless to say I've incorporated stuff from that book into my own routines since then!

Next time round I'm gonna bet him £50!
(he doesn't know I bought the book!)

But I don't think it's expensive - it's worth getting IMO.


$28 bucks US. If it helps me with my timing worth every penny.

Thanks for the recommendation. And good luck with the bet next time.

I use a metronome for practice and a drum loop for songwriting.

If you have a mac, the apple loops in garage band can be great for working on different feels. Bonus points- you can go into odd meters very easily by adjusting your loop points!:eek:

There's some great loops available for Garageband.

If you're into Jamerson (and if not - why not???) there's a set of Motown loops that sound like they are taken from the original recordings. I bought them as a download - about $65 or so, well worth it!!!

I'll find a link to the Motown loops and post it.

Found the link

http://www.esoundz.com/details.php?ProductID=1476&refcode=srcom

It's now $49. Well worth it IMO