She was going over the circle of fifths. I know the circle or at least I thought I did. She was telling us that the circle begins on F, I was always taught that it begins with C. I've looked at posts here and did more research and so far I've not found anything stating the circle starts on F.

Ive always learned it as C G D A E B F# and flats being F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb

I have yet to question her on this because I want to be proof positive before opening my mouth in class.

Well... the key of C has no sharps or flats, so I always consider that the starting point. Going in 5ths gives you the sharps (G-1, D-2, etc) and going in 4ths gives you the flats (F-1, Bb-2, etc).

If you look at it as a complete circle (yes, it does go all the way around), there's no real starting point of a circle... but 0,0 is typically "home" in most logic scenarios. ;)

Do ask her. And please share with us.

My personal guess that you'll hear something like this. "Without any sharps or flats the Key of C exists naturally and without any intervention of pitch alteration. Once the B is flatted, we have the key of F... and a journey has started, a journey that will return us, in time, to the natural state that we started in. Therefore, the journey starts with F... and so the circle".

Right.

Mostly college theory profs have way too much time on their hands.

Funny!

Without any sharps or flats the Key of C exists naturally

ahh... but with no sharps or flats, does the key of c really exist at all???

since c is really b#, and f is really e#, the key of f does not exist either......:)

ed

Does she play the french horn or something? Certain horns will adjust the circle according to what key the instrument is- still, that's pretty ridiculous if that's the case.

I swear that theory teachers get off on confusing people. I think it makes them feel good.

But, if nobody is in the forest to hear the french horn does your teacher really exist?

Personally, I think the circle of fifth's is a useless exercise.

But, if nobody is in the forest to hear the french horn does your teacher really exist?

http://talesofwisdom.com/files/2008/12/confucius-757900.jpg

It's a circle - there is no beginning or end. You should practice starting from different places.

It's a circle - there is no beginning or end. You should practice starting from different places.

Yep, that's what a circle is. They only have a start when you begin to draw it.

And why pray-tell does debasser think it's a useless execise? Have you never played music with repeated cycles? Have you never worked out the logic of how the keys progress and WHY Bb has two flats while F has only one and Eb has three?

jte

It's a circle - there is no beginning or end. You should practice starting from different places.

yup. it's the pattern as a series of intervals and knowing how to navigate those intervals that is important.

It's a circle. Who cares where you start when you are explaining it? When you understand the concept, you will also understand that it makes no difference whatsoever where it "starts".

One nice thing about having the C on top of the circle is that it makes it really easy to figure out the key signature going left or right around the circle. Other than that, I don't think it really matters where you start.

I have also learned it starting from F, in a music school.

The reason is simple: You cover all the notes of the C major scale (the "white keys") before going to any accidentals.

F C G D A E B and only then, continuing, F# Db Ab Eb Bb.

In the opposite direction ("circle of fourths") we learned it starting from B, for the same reason:

B E A D G C F and then Bb Eb Ab Db F#.

Not only this is nice because you "get the white keys first", but it gives a kind of theoretical explanation for why the major scale is the way it is (somebody recently asked that in another thread). The major scale is a bunch of note a fifth apart.

I have also learned it starting from F, in a music school.

The reason is simple: You cover all the notes of the C major scale (the "white keys") before going to any accidentals.


Huh? starting in F, you cover all the notes in C major?

Can someone show me where the "white keys" are on my bass? :hiding:

(actually, I do a lot of music theory "on the piano" in my head, though for circle of 5ths, I revert back to the bass - but remembering the order of which notes become sharp (or flat) I revert back to the piano)

Maybe your teacher was saying the first sharp is F (sharp)?

Personally, I think the circle of fifth's is a useless exercise.

Yeah. I agree. I too think that deriving key signatures and the order of flats and sharps is a useless exercise for beginning students of theory.

Not only this is nice because you "get the white keys first", but it gives a kind of theoretical explanation for why the major scale is the way it is (somebody recently asked that in another thread). The major scale is a bunch of note a fifth apart.

...except starting on a note that isn't in that cycle of fifths. According that theory, actually, it would be lydian that would be the "default scale" If you want to persue this idea further, have a good long look at George Russell's "Lydian Chromatic Concept," which actually argues that the lydian scale, not the major scale, is the basis for harmony in Western Music. Of course, you would be indoctrinated in esoteric logic that is contrary to actual practice, but it's still interesting.

Huh? starting in F, you cover all the notes in C major?
Yes. F C G D A E B. What is unclear?

...except starting on a note that isn't in that cycle of fifths. According that theory, actually, it would be lydian that would be the "default scale"Well, actually, nobody requires that the first note in your partial cycle of fifths has to be the root of the scale. And, personally, I see no strong reasons for preferring either lydian or ionian as the "default scale". The fact that F is the only note that sounds bad against a C chord certainly argues for its special status - consider that if you omit it, the scale you're left with is still a bunch of fifths put together, this time indeed starting from C.

You can look at it that way. You sorta got to turn your head and squint, but you can look at it that way.

Reasoning goes something like this:

From a modal point of view things really start with the Lydian F G A B C D E.

Now add a flat to the key signature and you get the Ionian: F G A Bb C D E.
Add another flat and you get the Mixolydian: F G A Bb C D Eb.
then Dorian: F G Ab Bb C D Eb
then Aeolian: F G Ab Bb C Db Eb
then Phrygian: F Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb
and finally Locrian: F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb.

You get some enharmonic spelling weirdness when you try and move this around the circle of 5ths, and the utility in a tonal context is pretty much nil.

I do like to teach that as an order of modes though, showing how you get from one to the next by flatting notes of the scale.

It's a circle. Who cares where you start when you are explaining it? When you understand the concept, you will also understand that it makes no difference whatsoever where it "starts".
Well said!

It's a circle - there is no beginning or end. You should practice starting from different places.
True . . .

:cool:

.

You can look at it that way. You sorta got to turn your head and squint, but you can look at it that way.

Reasoning goes something like this:

From a modal point of view things really start with the Lydian F G A B C D E.

Now add a flat to the key signature and you get the Ionian: F G A Bb C D E.
Add another flat and you get the Mixolydian: F G A Bb C D Eb.
then Dorian: F G Ab Bb C D Eb
then Aeolian: F G Ab Bb C Db Eb
then Phrygian: F Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb
and finally Locrian: F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb.

You get some enharmonic spelling weirdness when you try and move this around the circle of 5ths, and the utility in a tonal context is pretty much nil.

I do like to teach that as an order of modes though, showing how you get from one to the next by flatting notes of the scale.
Pretty!

Yes. F C G D A E B. What is unclear?


Oh - now I understand what you mean. Ok... yes, starting with F, and going in 5ths, you hit all the keys that have "natural" root notes. But starting with F, the key has 1 flat. And then you're missing the keys of F# and C# if you're trying to get at least all the keys with sharps.

Anyhow - theory is a lot of fun to mess around with, argue about, and have discussions about. Definitely good to know a bunch of - but not get "all caught up in it" (unless you're a professional musician in a situation where you need to live and bleed music theory).

...Mostly college theory profs have way too much time on their hands.


I worked 80 hours a week for ~29k a year. Not enough time, or money.


The circle (or cycle) of 5ths starts anywhere. If you want to view it as a cycle of key signatures, you can still start where you want, it is just easier to use as a memory aid if you start on "no sharps or flats" aka C major. Verbose enough? :p

Not to mention C is the standardized starting point and it just makes sense to keep it that way.

[OT]
Verbose enough? :p

yup