Ok so my band started out as a 6 piece we formed just to play a talent show a couple years back and ended up becoming a real band. About a month after our first real show our lead vocalist left with only 3 weeks before another one so our guitarist took over singing. It was supposed to be only until we could find a real singer, well I guess he liked the attention and decided to become singer. Problem is, he's not very good. People like our music but we've always been told to find a new singer, and whenever the guys bring it up, he pitches a fit.

Do you guys have any advice on how to handle it? He's an excellent guitarist and we want him to stay in the band, just not as a singer.

Give him an ultimatum. You don't owe his temper tantrums or immaturity any patience.

Nothing worse than a bad singer. There is a local blues band with great horn and guitar players, but the singer ruins it because he just sucks.

My band's guitar player sings lead, and has only recently started showing signs of improvement, and thank God - I was ready to quit.

Be sensitive and appeal to his sense of logic, realizing that it is currently shrouded inside his ego. This will be a tough nut to crack.

Do you actually have a new singer lined up? If not, do you at least have plans to start auditioning singers after you break the news to him?

The bottom line is that it doesn't really matter how you tell him. He'll either take it well or take it badly and there's not much you can do to influence which of those two it is.

You just need to make sure everyone else in the band is on the same page and then get together and tell him flat out that you value him as a guitar player but that his singing is holding you back.

After that, the ball's in his court. I guess the only real thing for you to decide as a band is whether getting a better vocalist is worth possibly losing him as a guitarist. If the answer is yes, then have the meeting.

No way around being direct and just dealing with his response. Try to be as polite and complimentary as possible (like, dont go saying that people think you suck...try to make it sound like he is an excellent guitarist but to get to the next step, you need a powerful vocalist etc etc) If he pitches a fit, tell him that you are all prepared to move on without him, so he either stays on as guitarist and maybe bg vocals, or hes on his own.

Do you actually have a new singer lined up? If not, do you at least have plans to start auditioning singers after you break the news to him?

The bottom line is that it doesn't really matter how you tell him. He'll either take it well or take it badly and there's not much you can do to influence which of those two it is.

You just need to make sure everyone else in the band is on the same page and then get together and tell him flat out that you value him as a guitar player but that his singing is holding you back.

After that, the ball's in his court. I guess the only real thing for you to decide as a band is whether getting a better vocalist is worth possibly losing him as a guitarist. If the answer is yes, then have the meeting.

Well I was waiting to put out a want add for a singer until after I tell him. Should I start looking for people now?

Well I was waiting to put out a want add for a singer until after I tell him. Should I start looking for people now?

Your first statement is the correct way to proceed. A very bad outcome of placing the ad first is that your current vocalist/guitarist will see the ad BEFORE you talk to him about it. That would be very bad. It would prove to the guitarist that you have no class and also that you don't care about him or his future in the band.

The #1 most important thing is that everyone else in the band agrees with you and will back you up when you tell him. If you don't have those ducks in a row, you can't just go about imposing your own will.

You may lose him as a guitarist. Be prepared for that possibility - you may be placing ads for a singer and a guitarist.

Other than that - just be as nice as you can be, and make sure no one else is a waffler - "well, if he works on his singing maybe we can wait for a while..." NONE OF THAT!

Has he heard himself sing? If not, maybe record the next practice and play it for him.

Record a LIVE show. I sing lead on a few things. I will try something live ONCE. Then I listen ro the recording of that performance. I then have to put my ego in my pocket and decide if what I'm doing helps the band. But a practice recording won't do it (IMO). There are lots of things that sound better in the "lab" conditions of practice than they do live. The point is, let HIM hear the recording. If he STILL doesn't get that he sucks, then his ear isn't as GOOD as his ego is BIG. Best of luck.

thanks for the advice guys

Give him an ultimatum. You don't owe his temper tantrums or immaturity any patience.

Nothing worse than a bad singer.
http://www.grimeforum.com/forum/images/smilies/iagree.gif1000% It is about making good music and the fans have spoken.

I'd go about this a different way.

Hire a producer to come in and critique the sound for improvement.

Have a paid 3rd party do this.

Chances are everyone needs to be fixed..

Has he heard himself sing? If not, maybe record the next practice and play it for him.
+1000

I'd go about this a different way.

Hire a producer to come in and critique the sound for improvement.

Have a paid 3rd party do this.

Chances are everyone needs to be fixed..

hmmm, interesting idea, I'll try that

Tell him that you really miss his awesome guitar playing. Now that he's having to sing, it's such a shame he can't devote his full attention to guitar, and you feel you either have to replace him as a guitarist, or as a singer, but can't imagine finding a guitarist as great as he is...

why can't you just be honest with him instead of hiring a third party producer to come in. seems like a sh1tty thing to do to one of your mates. a third party has spoken, the crowd. dont wuss out

Tell him that you really miss his awesome guitar playing. Now that he's having to sing, it's such a shame he can't devote his full attention to guitar, and you feel you either have to replace him as a guitarist, or as a singer, but can't imagine finding a guitarist as great as he is...

Which is all fine and good until he says, "Fine . . . I'll just be the singer". ;)

why can't you just be honest with him instead of hiring a third party producer to come in. seems like a sh1tty thing to do to one of your mates.

That's my thought too. Now if you were getting ready to record and seriously wanted some constructive criticism of the whole band, that's one thing. But to try and get an outside party in to help you kick this guy off vocals just seems really passive aggressive to me.

I still say you just have to be straight up and tell him and be prepared to deal with his response either way. My question about being ready to audition singers was part of that thought process. If this guy up and quits when you break the news, are prepared to do what you need to do to keep going?

Break the news and deal with the fallout. But be honest about it.

Giving him an ultimatum or letting him hear a live recording may not work.

We got rid of our guitarist last october (still doesn't talk to us... )

We knew if we sacked him it would kill him... so to speak...

Anyway, we did loads of live recordings... he thought he was the balls man, (he was shockin... ) so your singer might think the same...

As for an ultimatum, might think you are all against him and it WILL go badly.

From what we went through... Tell the singer a little white lie (not on your own but with the whole band, everyone has to have the voice heard, your a band, not a solo artist)

"A lot of people think your better just playin guitar, i/we think we should try it so you can concentrate on what your doin, and get someone else in who has the right voice for it deal with the singin..."

or, "we dont think your voice is quite right... i/we think we should try someone with the right voice..."

Whatever you do... Don't make him feel like your telling him he's ****.

Unless he is, then just sack him...:hiding:

if he can not take it, he is an ego with feet and not needed anyway. no is saying be mean about it, just honest

why can't you just be honest with him instead of hiring a third party producer to come in. seems like a sh1tty thing to do to one of your mates. a third party has spoken, the crowd. dont wuss out

AGREE.

why can't you just be honest with him instead of hiring a third party producer to come in. seems like a sh1tty thing to do to one of your mates. a third party has spoken, the crowd. dont wuss out

Part of the reason is that there is the possiblity he can be saved with some technique changes.. maybe stage presence etc.

There's a very good possibility the entire band needs a kick in the shorts.

Remember it's a VERY delicate balance if they still want him to play guitar.

I can't stress how impactful it has been to have a 3rd party producer come in to work with our band (we do $$$$$ casino gigs). They may see/hear something that the members don't

It's not being maniupulative.. it's called production.

Much of the same reason smart folks send their recordings out for a final mix down (even if they own a $$$$ studio).

When we crticize others.. makes sense to put ourselves on the line.

Tim

ive had to fire 3 singers before ... not fun ... especially when they have became friends ..... anyway you do it will be bad to him , so be nice and tell him exactly why and what you plan to do . offer him to keep his job as a guitarist and offer to let him sing 3 or 4 a night ..... maybe it will be ok . if not move on ....

Remember that a good singer is harder to find than a good guitarist, IME anyway. If you fire him as the singer and he doesn't want to be your guitarist then you'll still probably find a new guitarist before you find a singer. I'd just be up front and honest with him and have a couple people or band mates with you when you say it to him. that way you have confirmation and he won't just take it as your opinion only but the opinion of the band. Honesty is the best policy IMO. Just don't be a jerk about it. Nothing positive will happen that way. Let him know he's still a valuable part of the band as a musician, just not a singer.

I can't stress how impactful it has been to have a 3rd party producer come in to work with our band (we do $$$$$ casino gigs). They may see/hear something that the members don't

It's not being maniupulative.. it's called production.

Much of the same reason smart folks send their recordings out for a final mix down (even if they own a $$$$ studio).

It's manipulative if you are doing so under the auspices of improving the band when your actual intent is to push this guy off vocals.

Not to mention, what good is it to spend money on a producer when the goal is to change the band anyway?

If that's an avenue they want to explore, they should do it AFTER they replace their guitarist with a better singer.

+1 on recording him and having him listen to himself. Was in a band not too long ago whose singer was also the main guitar player (we were a 3-piece). He wasn't a terrible singer by any means, but he had problems with consistency and was a much better screamer than singer in general.

I think he started to realize where he was weak after recording a couple of shows, but it was really driven home after we spent months working on a demo in a pro studio. Mind you, we got a pretty decent result, but the process really showed him where he was weak.

I've played in 2 bands with him since then, including my current band, in which he has focused on playing guitar and seems quite happy with the situation.

saying that... Do they HAVE to be a good singer.....

Pick your top fav bands...

Not in any order...

Oasis - Liam Gallagher... Shockin vocals... ace front man
The Stone Roses - If Ian Brown can still sell out a gig... anyone can sing!
James - Tim Booth doesn't always stay in key, ACE front man. Beautiful Vocal lines and what a dancer!
Rage - He don't even sing...
NIRVANA - Shockin vocals... but my god, what a front man...

saying that... Do they HAVE to be a good singer.....

Pick your top fav bands...

Not in any order...

Oasis - Liam Gallagher... Shockin vocals... ace front man
The Stone Roses - If Ian Brown can still sell out a gig... anyone can sing!
James - Tim Booth doesn't always stay in key, ACE front man. Beautiful Vocal lines.
Rage - He don't even sing...
NIRVANA - Shockin vocals... but my god, what a front man...

If he's got it... let him do it! Balls to the voice... We are bassist! what do we care?! long as the track sounds solid... :-)

I dont see anything wrong with just teling him that he is changing positions on the team. It ain't like your firing him, you're re aligining the players to form a stronger unit.

It's for the betterment of the group, if the guy has a problem with playing a different position on the team, then you may not want him at all.
It honestly wouldn't bother me one bit if the band wanted to utilize my best assets, I would expect it from people who really wanted to play the best music possible.

What ever happened to just being honest and speaking the truth?

Maybe reviewing each member of the group and how each one needs to change/improve for the betterment of the band would be a good way to frame the situation. Possibly there are members who should be singing lead/backup vocals that aren't. Or other members who should be taking lessons to improve their technique.

Since everyone can improve for the betterment of the band, maybe that will be acceptable for the guitar player. Can he sing harmony for backup vocals? If the guitar player's ego is tied to being "lead singer", that's what will blow things up. If that's the bottom line, there's really no best way to do let him. Best you can do is be positive about it and see if he can work with it. Like was said before, you're not kicking him out of the band.

Maybe reviewing each member of the group and how each one needs to change/improve for the betterment of the band would be a good way to frame the situation. Possibly there are members who should be singing lead/backup vocals that aren't. Or other members who should be taking lessons to improve their technique.

Since everyone can improve for the betterment of the band, maybe that will be acceptable for the guitar player. Can he sing harmony for backup vocals? If the guitar player's ego is tied to being "lead singer", that's what will blow things up. If that's the bottom line, there's really no best way to do let him. Best you can do is be positive about it and see if he can work with it. Like was said before, you're not kicking him out of the band.



This is the intent of hiring an independent 3rd party producer... I didnt' put it as well as you.

It's amazing in bands how they'll hog pile on one member when everyone is iffy.

If improving is the objective, everyone should be on the critique line.

Tim

You could try a different approach, more business like and non-confrontational.

EX: "Good news, we're gonna start auditioning lead singers this week to replace 'so and so'(original singer), so we can all get back to our regular roles." (turn to the guitar guy) "Plus we really miss you at guitar mate, and so do the fans!"

"I've written an ad and plan to place it today. This is a great positive development for us especially since all the feedback lately has been about our need for a lead singer. Here's our opportunity to find a good one that fits us and allows us to rock on at full strength."

Give that a try.

Tell him you're going to start auditioning and then start having the singers come to rehearsal. Tell your guitar player the band deserves someone who sings as well as he plays guitar.

You could try a different approach, more business like and non-confrontational.

EX: "Good news, we're gonna start auditioning lead singers this week to replace 'so and so'(original singer), so we can all get back to our regular roles." (turn to the guitar guy) "Plus we really miss you at guitar mate, and so do the fans!"

"I've written an ad and plan to place it today. This is a great positive development for us especially since all the feedback lately has been about our need for a lead singer. Here's our opportunity to find a good one that fits us and allows us to rock on at full strength."

Give that a try.

That`s the best idea I`ve heard so far besides the other people who just said to grow a pair and tell him what`s what. Personally, I would of lost my temper with that guy by now. I have no patience when it comes to people who don`t listen to reason and who just hold others back.

I`d be straight and tell him, "Look, you`re a wonderful guitarist and I can`t imagine anyone better for the job than you, and it was great how you stepped up to do vocals while we were looking for a new singer. However, it`s time that we`ve moved on and found a proper singer for the gig. You don`t cut it and it`s time you put the band before yourself. You knew this was only a temporary thing so don`t act suprised by what we`re saying. We need you back on lead so we can all get back on track. You definantly can do background if you still want to pitch in some harmonies, but you don`t cut it as a lead singer, but you sure make one hell of a guitarist." If he still gives striff and wants to be a frontman then you can continue with, "You`re the lead guitar so you definantly get to be out front more than the lot of us."

Anyways, best of luck. I would of killed the guy by now myself.:bassist:

I'd say advertising for a singer should be a band discussion & decision instead of a member decision & action.

saying that... Do they HAVE to be a good singer.....

If he's got it... let him do it! Balls to the voice..

I agree with ^^^^^^ - the caveat being that you guys are an original band. If you are covers and the vocals really suck then you might have to get a singer.

I can see that most of the posts are saying to get another singing and how to do that respectfully. But if you guys are doing originals and he can pull it off then why not give him a shot? After all, no one is going to convince me that Lemmy or Dave Mustaine are good vocalists. Yet the vocals work within the context of their bands. A singer is also about fronting the band and bringing the right attitude.

Just talked to him today, he was totally cool with it, thanks for the advice guys

So....what exactly did you say and how did yo say it?
Seems like you done did a good job since he was "cool" about it?.

What exactly did he say? Sometimes people will be "cool" about things and hide their true feelings.

Bump