Bill Lee once said, "We are a society of collectors, but we should be a society of learners."

As I type this, there have been 122K posts about basses, yet there have been only 67K posts about recordings, bassists, technique and general instruction combined.

I think this ratio suggests general fascination with gear, and supports the idea that we think owning stuff will make us happy or make us better musicians.

Paul Erdos once said, "Property is a nuiscance."

I am frequently a bit dismayed returning to this site to see the overwhelming number of posts about gear.

What do you think about this?
Is this a problem?
Does this indicate anything?
How can we shift the focus from gear to being a better musician?

RS

Originally posted by rustyshakelford
I am frequently a bit dismayed returning to this site to see the overwhelming number of posts about gear.
What do you think about this?
Is this a problem?


:p It is genetic, not merely behavioural. Part of being a human animal. It may not be our most highly evolved trait, but it is useful in a Darwinian sense.

:D It is not a problem - we allow almost all types of humans here - even smug bastards like P Mac (who I am trying to emulate even though I am old enough to be his father ;)).

Well, since it's rather hard to talk about the creation of music, or music as an entity ("Talking about music is like dancing about architecture") we choose to talk about something that's a little more qauntitative (as opposed to qualitative)...I.E. gear.

Because while all of us experience music differently, we can all experience gear on more or less the same level.

How can we shift the focus from gear to being a better musician?

by acquiring more gear!

;)

f

People will always subconsciously compete with others by the amount of items or money invested in items. Skill or playing ability does matter substantially more than quality of equipment to the average fellow bass player. A person walking in on a gig and seeing a bassist getting his gear set up, and seeing he has a beat-up, scratched finger-printed black glossy Ibanez BTB will assume that person is a bad bass player and pass on listening to them. Just as with everything in life, first impressions count the most.

Now if a person walking in on a gig and sees another bassist with a pretty fretless unlined Zon with exhibition quality burled crotch walnet, that person will most likely stay and watch because that bass looks very appealing and it says to any one who sees it that this bass player must know what he's doing so he must be good.

As always, I am wrong to somebody out there, yet there might be one person who agrees with me that first impressions are the ultimate impressions, because without a good first impression, there is very little that can be done to convince a person to come back and pay attention.

I think the same thing.
The only time I ever visit here is when I am not busy at work.

The thing that amazes me is not only the amount gear is talked about compared to the other things you mention. But how much time some people spend talking about their new bass or what they are getting next when they could be playing.

if you're trying to learn how to play music over the internet, there's only so far you can go. to learn music, you have to practice and listen to music.

to find out about gear, this is the best place possible. most of us don't have the opportunity to play all of the basses we hear about, so we can gather information and second hand experiences here. the trend is not so strong on the DB side because there isn't nearly as much variation and innovation/evolution going on with that instrument, physically.

so there you have it, it's not because we're not learning.

and if you don't like the gear posts, don't read these forums. duh.

Originally posted by BigBohn
People will always subconsciously compete with others by the amount of items or money invested in items. Skill or playing ability does matter substantially more than quality of equipment to the average fellow bass player. A person walking in on a gig and seeing a bassist getting his gear set up, and seeing he has a beat-up, scratched finger-printed black glossy Ibanez BTB will assume that person is a bad bass player and pass on listening to them. Just as with everything in life, first impressions count the most.

Now if a person walking in on a gig and sees another bassist with a pretty fretless unlined Zon with exhibition quality burled crotch walnet, that person will most likely stay and watch because that bass looks very appealing and it says to any one who sees it that this bass player must know what he's doing so he must be good.

As always, I am wrong to somebody out there, yet there might be one person who agrees with me that first impressions are the ultimate impressions, because without a good first impression, there is very little that can be done to convince a person to come back and pay attention.


Is this person a musician?
Because any real musician would not assume such things. Some of the best players play beat up instruments. And the ones that do play fancy custom basses are not doing it to impress people. Not the *real* players anyway.

Concerns like yours pop up on Talkbass from time to time, RS....almost verbatim.

I think one big reason you see a lot of gear-related posts is that it's one subject where people can be relatively objective. Sure, people can argue whether a certain piece is stage-worthy or not. But a "watt is a watt" and a "single coil is a single coil."

Explaining technique, theory, and related subjects for electric bass is practically futile in a written format.....(consider how many instructional videos even fall short of the mark).
For instance, a habitual favorite here is "How do I get a good slap sound?" A typed explanation on a website is hardly "good instruction."

"Bassists" and "Recordings" typically get caught up in personal tastes. Unlike, say a site devoted to a certain genre of music, the backgrounds represented here are quite varied. Conseqeuently, so are the opinions.

I don't find "Bass Player" magazine content much different. There are gems of advice here and there in the magazine. But when some artist discusses each individual track from their latest recording, it's just too esoteric to be meaningful, at least to me.

The Musical Instrument Makers forum is much the same. The "art" isn't discussed much at all because the medium, (web site and words), is so woefully inadequate. The "tools" and the "materials" get much more attention there.

IMO, drawing the conclusion that "the gear" is more important than "the art" to most people at this site is very erroneous. It seems that the gear-emphasis typically gets played down as one matures - (the percentage of younger players here is quite high).

Measuring the value of a site by how it's kilobytes are employed rather than the overall quality of the content is really seliing it short.

After all, what you decide to discuss on the site gets posted...no different from any gear-related posts.

Originally posted by BIg O

It is not a problem - we allow almost all types of humans here - even smug bastards like P Mac (who I am trying to emulate even though I am old enough to be his father ;)).

;)
Hey, man, I was born 50. Y'all are just catching up with me. (BTW, my father is old enough to be your father. I learned Caustic, Smug Bastardry on his wrinkled knee.)

As to the original post: rickbass is exactly on the mark. His words get the Official Seal of Approval of the Smug Bastard In Chief.

:D :rolleyes:

That's why there are different forums, so people can ask about gear, recordings, or learning. Whether some kid is asking about what gear helps him with what he's doing, or someone asking about modes in jazz soloing, it's all learning, regardless of what the subject matter is.

and if you don't like the gear posts, don't read these forums. duh.

i don't think its that he doesn't like gear posts, he's just making an observation.

f

I think an essential aspect of people is that they always attempt to judge where they are in relation to one another in terms of status. Nearly all animals do this and most especially us humans. Even if we don't really think about it too much.

I know in the USA that almost always the very first thing asked of someone, in a social situation, is "so .... what do you do?". This is a means of determining status of individuals within the scope of the larger group.

So in a way .... whoever has more, and better, basses wins!

So let's go get more stuff :):)

I am frequently a bit dismayed returning to this site to see the overwhelming number of posts about gear.

ok, i re-read his original post.

NEVERMIND!

i still think he makes a good point though.

its more the ratio of gear to technique/instruction.

gear posts generally have pics...so, in a sense, its bass porn.

of course, i just read the articles.

f

Thanks for the concern. Next time, focus on the actual posts made in the respective forums. Besides recordings, most of the posts/threads once made once can be used again without requiring more postings. Instruction, at least in the principles and philosophies behind it, doesn't change as often as gear does. If I have a question, I'll search for it in those other forums and find the answer. No post required. Besides, the people who really want to learn are going to do so via a teacher, in person. Not the internet.

Thanks for the concern, but I don't see the problem.

Personally I find that issues of technique and what not are very difficult to describe in written form. I'll read about different techniques and sometimes it's near impossible for me to figure what on earth is being described. Furthermore, some aspects of playing are intuitive, I can't really explain how I mute, for example, I just know that I can mute notes when I have to and whatever I do seems to work. So in some ways these things are personal, on the other hand, with gear, lots of people own the same or similar gear. I can understand and give advice on those topics much more easily. Maybe if we all met in person technique tips would be more practical as we could show each other what exactly we're doing. Alas that isn't a practical option.

Its easy to explain why we dont talk about recordings and bassists... WE DON'T F'N WANT TO! my mom put it best when she said ..... if you don't like the game take your ball and go home. the same people that feel they need to be overly critical about someones gear are the same as certain people who want to bash us for talking about music gear instead of music. you feel the need to lower us to make you feel better. the simple truth is that there are some baaaaad mothers on this board. this is a place where you can come and ask and learn from people who know what the hell they're talking about 9 and alot of people ACTING like people who know what they're talking about. When i first started playing i wish there was a way for me to talk to the man who built my instrument, but in todays society we can and that is a beautiful thing. so sir if you are trying to belittle my freinds and fellow bass players here by saying we spend too much time talking about gear........... well ........... bite me:mad:

Originally posted by theJello



Is this person a musician?
Because any real musician would not assume such things. Some of the best players play beat up instruments. And the ones that do play fancy custom basses are not doing it to impress people. Not the *real* players anyway.

No, its an average civilian, not a musician.

True that some of the best players have played beat up instruments, like Jaco off the top of head. But that in itself is a very small proportion of musicians ever. Most musicians need instant public approval and admiration to get an audience. The average person will be more enticed by pretty and clean looking gear rather than beatup nasty dirty gear.

Originally posted by BigBohn


No, its an average civilian, not a musician.

True that some of the best players have played beat up instruments, like Jaco off the top of head. But that in itself is a very small proportion of musicians ever. Most musicians need instant public approval and admiration to get an audience. The average person will be more enticed by pretty and clean looking gear rather than beatup nasty dirty gear.

I'm not sure which average people you've been talking to, but, I can guarantee you that the "average person" couldn't even tell you what color a guitar, or bass used by a musician was after watching them for 2 hours. Average people don't care about the gear. Period. I've never seen someone leave a club saying, "I was going to stay for the band, but the guitars were all old onstage, so we left." If it makes their butt shake, or their foot tap, they'll listen. It doesn't matter one bit what the gear looks like.

Who cares?

If you hadn't noticed, people talk about what they are interested in. People like to look at nice toys. Go to any forum that involves "toys" (ie muscle cars, home theater, etc), and you'll probably find quite a few threads with "Check out my new paintjob!" Talkbass interest is all over the place--if you can't find threads that you like, look elsewhere.

I like to look at pretty basses--sue me. I also like to talk technique, and when I see threads that interest me, I respond. If they don't, I move on.
Is that difficult to do? I certainly don't lament the "State of Talkbass" as a result. I think Talkbass is very lucky to have members like Pacman, Jazzbo, The Mighty Ed Fuqua, Chris McFunky-Cat-Playing-the-Doublebass, etc who can school people on technique and theory when they have questions. But, I am also glad that people continue to buy new instruments, and post pictures of them. In my world, there is room for both.

If you are "dismayed" with the way the site threads look, why don't you start your own bass site? I think this one is fine just the way it is. That's why I paid to support it. I don't think there is anything to fix, and I am a bit insulted at your insinuation that it is "broken" by asking how we can change it from gear posts to "being a better musician."

Sorry it doesn't conform to what you want the site to be. I don't get a whole lot out of the Harmony central Bass boards, so, guess what? I don't go there often. Some people love it there. More power to them. I'm certainly not going to start a thread telling them they aren't using the board correctly...

Speaking of which...where the Curbow, Jason?

Originally posted by Brendan
Speaking of which...where the Curbow, Jason?

The new one? Sitting on Greg's workbench waiting for a setup. Probably go get it on Saturday. Maybe. Perhaps. I'm not holding my breath.

And, you know what? After I get it, my girlfriend probably couldn't point it out as being the "new one." In fact, her response will probably be, "That's nice, dear, here's a cookie." :D

Originally posted by bassmonkeee


The new one? Sitting on Greg's workbench waiting for a setup. Probably go get it on Saturday. Maybe. Perhaps. I'm not holding my breath.

And, you know what? After I get it, my girlfriend probably couldn't point it out as being the "new one." In fact, her response will probably be, "That's nice, dear, here's a cookie." :D

Get it today! then head down to Bass Central tommorrow so I can lay my mits on it! :D

Originally posted by bassmonkeee


I'm not sure which average people you've been talking to, but, I can guarantee you that the "average person" couldn't even tell you what color a guitar, or bass used by a musician was after watching them for 2 hours. Average people don't care about the gear. Period. I've never seen someone leave a club saying, "I was going to stay for the band, but the guitars were all old onstage, so we left." If it makes their butt shake, or their foot tap, they'll listen. It doesn't matter one bit what the gear looks like.

You are right, but I think that people consider both the talent of the bassist and the quality of equipment. Its just like you going to a lawyer and seeing they drive a rusted, crashed 1992 Toyota or a 2001 Mercedes E 320. Who would you walk on out first? Its all an image you have to put on to get an audience, or business, or anything else, in life.

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
I think that if you look at the DB side of the board that ratio is gonna be reversed...

After looking at the past month of DB threads, Ed, I don't see that the DB side of the website is any less concerned with "the tools" than they are with "the trade" to double bassists. All one has to do is look at numbers of posts and I think the truth is that "the tool" is of greater concern than what's played on it. If I hadn't looked at the numbers, I would have guessed otherwise.

Not that double bassists being concerned with the physical instrument is a bad thing. This pompous assumption that a heavier emphasis on aspects besides "gear" is somehow "more virtuous" smells like "elitism" to me.

The bottomline is that none of us at Talkbass are "missionaries" sent to "enlighten" the crass hedonists of bass.

If most people here want to discuss gear, that's fine. None of us must participate in those discussions. And any of us can introduce whichever bass-related subject we want. Personally, I've been getting very little response on my posts for a long time because I prefer to talk about bass-related aspects other than the "tools."
But that's okay - my pursuit is not seeking to have this website's discussions conform to my interests.......
Early this morning after rehearsal, I started a thread about the music on the "Bass Talk Bass 7" CD and hoped someone else was tuned into it. Apparently, only one person, from Germany, was. But that's okay. I didn't want to talk about the gear the bassists on it were using. The qualified response I got from JMX about the music was so much better than talking about the gear the bassists were using. To further illustrate my point in my previous post in this thread - it's not the number of responses, it's the quality of their content.

If there are 10 other threads about the Fieldy Signature Bass, that's fine. The majority of the content here is what "the people" want to talk about, not what pleases one's insular view of what it should be from one's ego-satiating, "artistic," point of view.

No other site that I know of does it better for electric bass than Talkbass.

I guess this means that Ed Fuqua must be just another smug bastard like the rest of us...;)

Originally posted by BIg O
I guess this means that Ed Fuqua must be just another smug bastard like the rest of us...;)

Yeah, but some "bastards" are really "musical bastards" that could shame me in a minute on a bass.

may as well weigh in here I guess;

I was a little dismayed at the 'dismayed' comment.
For me, I'm dismayed more by people talking about people talking about basses than the people actually talking about basses. But then, I like this place anyway...

I started playing on a $12 Harmony bass that hurt to play, in many ways. I was a teen-ager then, and had no access to helpful forums (that I knew of). Now, I have more info than I know what to do with, available anytime. If I'd had it back then, I really could have learned a lot more about my instrument, at my leisure and convenience. I might have realized I could fix a lot of my instrument's problems myself, cheaply.

Flea vs Fieldy, Rush vs Yes, DI vs miked amp, should you practice with a metronome; it's all just words to me. Opinions. Is any one forum/opinion more valid than others? I don't see how it could be, so why berate anyone for their personal interest in one over the other?

To me, the benefit of this site is to broaden our horizons, to learn from other peoples experiences and perspectives. In our pursuit of music, we use certain tools. Obviously we're going to discuss them. I don't see a problem in that.

well, owning my Ritter basses surely makes me happy! hehe

Originally posted by Mackerel
well, owning my Ritter basses surely makes me happy! hehe

...And if the sound of your Ritters gives you and your audiences more pleasure than the Ibanez you may have owned at one time, (speaking hypothectically ;) ), what's the harm in wanting to discuss them? If you own them only to impress others, that's another issue.

I rely on just 3 plain-jane basses, but I don't see the point in this ego-masturbation bit about how discussing "gear" makes one any less a bassist. The big names in bassdom are fully willing to discuss their bass stables because they know it's what they play on the instruments that made them famous - not some sort of pretentious - "Well, I'm too much of an `artiste' to discuss my gear." "Insecurity" doesn't seem to be an issue for the best.

IME, the biggest egos are those who have the least justification for having them. If discussing gear is somehow "beneath" one, I think that person has much bigger security issues.

Originally posted by rickbass
IME, the biggest egos are those who have the least justification for having them. If discussing gear is somehow "beneath" one, I think that person has much bigger security issues.

again, "word!"
advantage: Rickbass.
well said.
I shall resume my humble perusal of said gear forum.

Originally posted by rustyshakelford
Bill Lee once said, "We are a society of collectors, but we should be a society of learners."

Define "we".

As I type this, there have been 122K posts about basses, yet there have been only 67K posts about recordings, bassists, technique and general instruction combined.

Richard Dreyfuss once said, "This means something".
He was confused, too.

I think this ratio suggests general fascination with gear, and supports the idea that we think owning stuff will make us happy or make us better musicians.

Just like polls, you can make it mean whatever you want. Making it true is just a tad harder.

Here's one problem... you're assuming all of the gear-related posts are happy. They're not, lots of them relate to problems folks are having with their gear. If you read them you'll see that they can't all be lumped into the category you want them to be in. Others are about folks seeking the benefit of others who have experience with different gear and want to make the smartest financial move they can. Is that a bad thing.

Paul Erdos once said, "Property is a nuiscance."

Moe Howard once said, "Why, I oughtta!"

I too, love quotes.

I am frequently a bit dismayed returning to this site to see the overwhelming number of posts about gear.

What do you think about this?

I think that maybe you should reserve dismay for something a little more substantial but by all means be that way if you need to.

Is this a problem?

Not for me. Apparently it is for some.

Does this indicate anything?

It could indicate all sorts of things, positive, negative and neutral. Lots of the gear posts are educational... is that a bad thing?

One thing it clearly indicates is that someone is assuming the motives of all of these gear forum participants.

How can we shift the focus from gear to being a better musician?

RS

Read the proper forum? Just a thought. You seem to want people to not ask the questions they have in deference to the questions you think they should be asking. Why?

Every once in a while there's the cry of how people aren't doing X instead of Y. Not everyone has the same motivation musically. For some it is a vocation, others a hobby, with all levels of skill demonstrated between the two. Should everyone strive to be at what you consider an optimal level? I can't see why... I just concern myself with where "I" want to be.

I forget which TB regular has "More gear than talent" as a title, but that could apply to me too. I certainly don't need all the gear I own. I could spend less time and money on gear and more on practicing and lessons. If I had started doing that 25 years ago, then I fully believe I could've become a professional bass player. My guitarist brother did spend more time and money on becoming a better musician, and for the past 15 years he has been a musician by trade.

But guess what: I did not then and do not now have any interest in being a professional bass player. I have a cool job in the IT field that I wouldn't trade for anything; I also enjoy non-musical hobbies. I do currently play in two part-time bands, and between them my weekends stay busy with gigs. But as much fun as I have performing, I would not want to play 5 or more days a week, whether in smoky bars or fancy nightclubs, studio, or theater.

This isn't sour grapes; I simply understand that competition is incredibly fierce in any facet of the entertainment industry (true even at the semi-pro level). I would be up to the challenge if playing bass for a living was my calling, but it is not. My hat is off to all of you pro musicians for the hassles you have to endure performing your labor of love.

Now if you will excuse me, I will step down from my soapbox and return to alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.wilma-flintstone. :p

Originally posted by BigBohn


No, its an average civilian, not a musician.

True that some of the best players have played beat up instruments, like Jaco off the top of head. But that in itself is a very small proportion of musicians ever. Most musicians need instant public approval and admiration to get an audience. The average person will be more enticed by pretty and clean looking gear rather than beatup nasty dirty gear.

most civilians know absolutely zip about instuments... so how would they know if the person was playing a Zon versus a Squier? a normal person isn't going to walk into a bar and say "hey, that guy is playing a beat up instrument! these guys suck!"

no, the only thing the civilian is going to notice and/or care about is how good the music is... and if you were to ask that person after the show what he remembered about the the player's guitar, he probably wouldn't remember at all

the only people that are going to notice the gear used on stage are other musicians... and in that case, the musician is going to judge the band based on the music... unless he's a shallow bastard, in which case who cares what he thinks

i'd say the only person in the room who cares about the brand and/or quality of the bass is the bassist himself... and if he's happy with what he has, then what difference does it make?

If you're trying to learn how to play music over the internet, there's only so far you can go. To learn music, you have to practice and listen to music.

I agree with the above. Musicianship is learned by doing, both in practice and performance. It's hard to learn technique and theory in a forum like this. BP magazine does a good job of this, and there's always lessons and instructional videos.

If we were simply singing, it might be different, but our musical expression must be through an electronic instrument that can sound very different based on woods, pickups, style, etc. These facets are interesting and important.

It is also quite fun to inquire about various kinds of basses. Research conducted amongst peers makes for a wise use of the dollar.

I appreciate your viewpoint, since we all get carried away with acquiring at times. But where else than in the "basses" forum can you window shop like this?

snip....
As always, I am wrong to somebody out there, yet there might be one person who agrees with me that first impressions are the ultimate impressions, because without a good first impression, there is very little that can be done to convince a person to come back and pay attention. snip....

I agree with you on the fact that i play for at least 1 band where image counts nearly as much as your playing does. [show choir] the group i'm in is known for acting professional & looking it too. The gear doesn't make a bad player sound great, nor does it make a great player sound terrible-it can influence the tone but a good player will sound good through almost anything [e.g. if victor wooten played a rogue he could make it sound @ least somewhere close to decent]I want a better bass so that i can help instill that image into those other bass players at the comps & see my basses and think WoW, that band sure has some nice gear. That being said, i check out the other bassists gear @ comps-whether it be someone who's toting an ampeg stack that makes me drool or if it's the kid who plays w/wrist bands & a pick on a ballad that makes me cringe. The overall impact of a nice peice of gear [e.g. the zon] would be that those who don't play might think "shiny, he must be good" or "he has lots of knobs & switches, with lots of strings, he must be good" and then the average person won't have a clue how your tone compares to another bass since it's not what they listen for. Now a bassist like the ones here would be i think like "WoW, that guy has a Zon i really {like/hate} them." & they could tell if they like his tone as compared to a classic fender, sadowsky, stingray, take your pick. Back to the topic, i think it's easier to talk about gear on here since it's something we can all see or find where as w/technique it's harder to describe in words. YMMV Thats all

There is probably more gear talk than music talk in the bass guitar forums and the inverse in the double bass forums.

This is not really a bad thing, unless you want to talk about music and not gear. In which case, start some threads! If you are tired of reading "new bass" and "check out this spalt" threads well, use your built-in media filter to ignore them as well as you can.

A thought though.

With all the discussion of 7+ string, double neck unlined fretless basses with sitka crotch walnut tops, 18-piece necks, 48-volt preamps ad nauseum...

..I think about people like Jaco, Donald Dunn, Stevie Ray Vaughan and others that use simple, beat up instruments with lots of simple mods to keep them together.

It's just some wood, plastic and metal with glue and wood screws plugged into a wooden box with a speaker and some electronics. Nothing more.

Perhaps GAS is slowly becoming an end in itself?

I like a sweet bass as much as the next guy and can talk gear all night. But I keep the perspective that really, it doesn't matter any more than what I can do with it.

<insert pun here>

I agree with the initial point.


Can't make the hot groove when your mind is on the tool.

heres my 2 cents.

The quest for the perfect tool is part of the personal musical quest. But its just that, totally personal. Sometimes this site reminds me of a personals site, or a porn site, you don't hear much about the long time married couple. you hear about the hot new ass on the block. We're all basspimps at some point in time, and its with good reason.

This evil comes down to "the root of all evil". money. basses ain't cheap. We all want that soulmate of a bass, and we all blab when we think we've found it. If i could find the perfect woman without ever having to spend a dime on her (even tho thats part of the description of a perfect woman :p ) id go for her. The quest would be over and we would make the hottest love known to man. I'd probably never need to talk about women again. Just like once i find that bass, you won't be hearing about it. Ill see newbies trying out new basses and laugh at the day i was one of them.

The problem with this, is that the electric bass is constantly evolving. Plastic T&A out tha wazoo. That long lost marriage is almost forgotten, unless you go downstairs to the talkbass basement. Fender guys are Fender for life. Sometimes things feel like home, apparently we are all sexually attracted to our mothers, remember?

anyways my point is, if you have what you want in a bass, so be it. play your bass and get better than all these guys talking about gear. If you don't, tap into this abundant resource of gear knowledge, and get pimping. When your woodshedding or making love to your bass up on stage, enjoy it. You can't really express it into words. If you have questions about theory or wanna share something, theres a forum for that too. Theres alotta sh** in this world, the ratio gets worse everyday, so just step where you gotta step.

so just step where you gotta step.

i was wondering what that smell was.

f

Regarding the original post...

Yeah, I think he's right and I had the same reaction coming to this board. There's an awful lot of "Look what I've got" content w/ pics and all that.

Whether that's a good or bad thing is a personal call. I know where I stand on that one.

Regarding the whole "The audience is more captivated by nice instruments" thread...

That's jive.

I guess the whole concept of forums has been lost on some;). What do you expect in the Basses forum, a discussion of the circle of fifths?

There have been a ton of theory and techniques questions already asked. Using the search function allows you to read them. They don't add to the post count.

In the meantime gear changes and is not as static a topic as theory... and some people are interested in that. Stone them.

Originally posted by rickbass


...And if the sound of your Ritters gives you and your audiences more pleasure than the Ibanez you may have owned at one time, (speaking hypothectically ;) ), what's the harm in wanting to discuss them? If you own them only to impress others, that's another issue.



I said they make me happy! My goal surely is not to show ohters what a cool guy I am because i have those basses!
I'm happy with them because they sound unbelievable and are great to handle!
To be honest my first bass is a Yamaha RBX 250 before and I still own it. Jens Ritter made it fretless for me and built in some great electronics! I will never sell this old 250 $ bass, cause I am happy with this one too!

But I don't see anything bad, when people are happy with and in some ways proud of their gear!
Those people had to work hard to get the money for their gear! It's just getting what you always wished to get! When a dream comes true you are happy, right?!

Originally posted by rustyshakelford
Bill Lee once said, "We are a society of collectors, but we should be a society of learners."

As I type this, there have been 122K posts about basses, yet there have been only 67K posts about recordings, bassists, technique and general instruction combined.

I think this ratio suggests general fascination with gear, and supports the idea that we think owning stuff will make us happy or make us better musicians.

Paul Erdos once said, "Property is a nuiscance."

I am frequently a bit dismayed returning to this site to see the overwhelming number of posts about gear.

What do you think about this?

RS



I agree entirely and have said exactly the same thing myself abut 4 or 5 times over the last 3 years or so.

But as others have pointed out there is no way to prove this and it's just a feeling you get from browsing - others don't and they can "prove" the opposite ! ;)

I do believe that what is happening is that practice and learning take effort and concentration, whereas this site to me, is very good proof of a generation brought up on "instant gratification" - I need Tabs now!!

The ultimate for "instant gratification" is consuming! Buy a new bass - instant high! Learning how to improvise in every key - takes years and gradual learning.

I know which I'd prefer - I would pay out all my money to go on Jazz SummerSchool every week of the year, rather than buy another bass. If I coudl get the time off work! ;)

I think that the gear fetish is very evident to anyone who wants to open their eyes, but it is the same everywhere and to me a generational thing. So everybody now wants - mobile phone, PC, PS2 etc etc - consumerism is everywhere and this forum just reflects that.


Is this a problem?
Does this indicate anything?
How can we shift the focus from gear to being a better musician?

Happily no - when this forum started it was difficult - but now Paul has done such a good job that it is very easy to ignore what you don't like and find the threads and people that you do!

I don't think you will change society within this forum ( :) ) - there is a sense that with the death of Communism, Consumerism is now rampant throughout the globe and only a huge financial crash or natural disaster, will stop it until all the resources have run out!

Even the Chinese want their white goods now! ;)

Originally posted by Jarrod


most civilians know absolutely zip about instuments... so how would they know if the person was playing a Zon versus a Squier? a normal person isn't going to walk into a bar and say "hey, that guy is playing a beat up instrument! these guys suck!"

no, the only thing the civilian is going to notice and/or care about is how good the music is... and if you were to ask that person after the show what he remembered about the the player's guitar, he probably wouldn't remember at all

the only people that are going to notice the gear used on stage are other musicians... and in that case, the musician is going to judge the band based on the music... unless he's a shallow bastard, in which case who cares what he thinks

i'd say the only person in the room who cares about the brand and/or quality of the bass is the bassist himself... and if he's happy with what he has, then what difference does it make?

Well, hello Jarrod, what a pleasant surprise!

As I have already said in previous posts, I think both physical image and quality of music are what matter most to the average audience member. Image is what you need to get someone hooked. Don't live in that little pretend world that image means nothing to how much quality that person has. If there is no positive image, that musician is going to lose an audience member, which could have been a music promoter or a record label president. Don't tell me otherwise that image doesn't matter at all or not as much as the quality of the playing.

All in all, other fellow musicians MIGHT give some leniency to that musician being judged and give it a listen, BUT most if not all average civilians coming to watch will be more critical of the image of the musician, but then critical of that musician's quality of playing.

I used to frequent a forum for mountain bikers, before I had to slow down a bit due to broken bones, age and adult responsibilities. There too was a preoccupation with gear. Within the realm of a hobby, I believe there is a certain latitude to tweak, toy, tryout and tinker. Not many of us are bonafide pros, so a part of what we do is hobby oriented, which includes all kinds of collecting.

Originally posted by BigBohn


Well, hello Jarrod, what a pleasant surprise!

As I have already said in previous posts, I think both physical image and quality of music are what matter most to the average audience member. Image is what you need to get someone hooked. Don't live in that little pretend world that image means nothing to how much quality that person has. If there is no positive image, that musician is going to lose an audience member, which could have been a music promoter or a record label president. Don't tell me otherwise that image doesn't matter at all or not as much as the quality of the playing.

All in all, other fellow musicians MIGHT give some leniency to that musician being judged and give it a listen, BUT most if not all average civilians coming to watch will be more critical of the image of the musician, but then critical of that musician's quality of playing.


Fellow musicians MIGHT give leniency in regards to image? What are you talking about? Any self respecting musician is not concerned with such things EVER when listening to a band. If I saw a kick ass funk band and half the members were overweight, played beat up instruments, and had pizza sauce on their T-shirts, it would have no effect on what I thought of them. I think most musicans would agree with this.

Hey I'm a pretty acomplished Bassplayer of 20+ years but I'm also a gear-head (That's what all three of my bands call me)! Believe me I have my two main player basses and rig, but I'm alway's on the lookout for something new, Trading gear and trying out new technology, What better way to find out about gear than to come to a board with 20 thousand other players.
By all means coming here does not take anytime from my playing or lesssons or whatever.

Just my .02 cents in defending the Basses forum.

I kill two birds with one stone. Play scales while reading.

I think the thread that takes the cake for me is the "What's your arsenal worth?"

What's that got to do w/ discussing models, features, playabilty etc...? I'm a gearhead too and I like to learn about gear but that thread and the number of responses it solicited struck me as way over the top.

A very wise mentor of mine once said to me...
"Ya know Mike, we spend the first 50 years of our lives collecting stuff, and the rest of our lives getting rid of it". I guess it goes with gear too. Although I have been thinking along the lines you've expressed over the past year and have begun reducing my studio and instrument needs to the basics. It is a big task, but I find with less distraction I make better music, because my mind is not torn in umpteen directions fiddling with this or noodling with that, and the millions of pages of manuals that go along with all of it.....
Just a Thought.:D

Originally posted by theJello

Fellow musicians MIGHT give leniency in regards to image? What are you talking about? Any self respecting musician is not concerned with such things EVER when listening to a band. If I saw a kick ass funk band and half the members were overweight, played beat up instruments, and had pizza sauce on their T-shirts, it would have no effect on what I thought of them. I think most musicans would agree with this.

Yeah, I change what I said there. Musicians will be more lenient to image moreso than an average audience member. That's what I wanted to put, but I errored. I stand corrected.

I think the thread that takes the cake for me is the "What's your arsenal worth?"

As the author of the "What's Your Arsenal Worth" thread, with no compunction to defend myself, I thought I'd offer what my motivation was. As I read the posts on TB, especially in the "basses" forum, I am constantly struck by the big dollars invested in basses. Initially, I was curious to know generally what the average investment was in basses. The thread evolved into the whole enchilada (basses, amps, etc.). I think the thread is not over the top and provides very interesting insights into the bass player psyche. For example... 1. Bass players care more about their art than automobiles.
2. Posting on TB is often kept hidden from spouses. 3. Bass players keep good financial records;)

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
But as others have pointed out there is no way to prove this and it's just a feeling you get from browsing - others don't and they can "prove" the opposite ! ;)

I have a feeling that this is a feeling some just want to get. Here's a suggestion: quit browsing. Read the actually posts, don't assume you know the content of each and every one from the title. Browsing to come to a conclusion is lazy and even worse inaccurate. Then again why even browse... keep practicing.

I do believe that what is happening is that practice and learning take effort and concentration, whereas this site to me, is very good proof of a generation brought up on "instant gratification" - I need Tabs now!!

Exactly how many Tab requests are clogging up the forum? Tab has it's own forum, don't want to talk about it? Don't go there. Too simple. The same is true of gear post. If you (generally speaking) have no interest in such matters, avoid it. It's not a pedophile forum, it's BASSES, which is usually pretty harmless. No one has died since that freak accident back in '98

Why do any of you want to make assumptions on the practice habits of others you don't even know? This superiority thing is just lame.

Bruce, as much as you tout your "one bass rule", you still look at other basses. Couldn't you and folks like you better spend that and any and all other free time practicing? Just curious. Shouldn't all of you be practicing or posting in the other forums. What exactly are "YOU" doing in Basses?

The thing that just kills me is that some folks bemoan gear posts yet read and post in gear forums. So you're allowed and others aren't. Apparently you're doing it exactly the right amount and others are out of control. :rolleyes:. That's just good old fashioned hypocrisy.

The ultimate for "instant gratification" is consuming! Buy a new bass - instant high! Learning how to improvise in every key - takes years and gradual learning.

I'm no spring chicken Bruce, and neither are you. I know you're still working on improving musically and so am I. If I go to technique and post that I am working on it (because that's really all I have to say here about it), what exactly does that accomplish? Should I post about stuff I do know, in what would appear to be an effort to show off my knowledge? I don't have any questions that I need answered here on the non gear-related forums, is that a sign that civilization is coming to an end? Oh dear!

I know which I'd prefer - I would pay out all my money to go on Jazz SummerSchool every week of the year, rather than buy another bass. If I coudl get the time off work! ;)

That's "your" dream... it may have zip to do with everyone else.

I think that the gear fetish is very evident to anyone who wants to open their eyes, but it is the same everywhere and to me a generational thing. So everybody now wants - mobile phone, PC, PS2 etc etc - consumerism is everywhere and this forum just reflects that.

I also like basses. Can't see how that is a generational thing at all. Also, if "everybody now wants..." how can "everybody" be generational?Please explain.

Is this a problem?

To people looking for problems, yes.

Does this indicate anything?

That maybe we need to have a telethon for all of these misguided bassists?

How can we shift the focus from gear to being a better musician?

Happily no - when this forum started it was difficult - but now Paul has done such a good job that it is very easy to ignore what you don't like and find the threads and people that you do!

I don't think you will change society within this forum ( :) ) - there is a sense that with the death of Communism, Consumerism is now rampant throughout the globe and only a huge financial crash or natural disaster, will stop it until all the resources have run out!

Even the Chinese want their white goods now! ;)

Maybe if we all whined more often, those damn kids would buckle down and tow the line.

And get off my yard before I put the hose on you, dadgummit!!

Originally posted by marc40a
I think the thread that takes the cake for me is the "What's your arsenal worth?"

Why? Other than the fact that maybe it should be in "Miscellaneous".

I'm sure lots of folks are curious as to how much some people have invested in gear. What better place to ask than here, amongst friends?

What's that got to do w/ discussing models, features, playabilty etc...? I'm a gearhead too and I like to learn about gear but that thread and the number of responses it solicited struck me as way over the top.

This thread is pretty interesting. Several people have commented negatively on the original post... Aren't you guys getting a little too much on the defensive ? Are some of you insecure and afraid there's a part of truth in what the original poster says ? Are you feeling threatened ?

I'm just asking questions here.

I happen to agree with some of the points developped by both parties. The part on the "instant gratification" sounds right to me, I think it's true that some people want the immediate benefits without being ready to make the efforts to obtain them. It's part of the human nature, and maybe part of our culture. But the guy didn't say every member of this board is like that ! Relax guys. I don't think the original poster assumed that every collector of gear is a lazy guy who never practices and don't play well. Don't get offended because you own several basses...

Ari

I am the original poster.

I appreciate the responses. They are interesting.

People are sensitive about something, either the question or my tone. I had hoped to be as innocuous and diplomatic as possible.

However, some people are upset. If I have offended you, I am sorry. Please forgive me.

I think its the gear thing, Rusty. I would venture to say most everyone here is committed to becoming a better player. They probably have their bass on their laps doing scales while they post about the nuances of the next bass they will buy,

Originally posted by rustyshakelford

People are sensitive about something, either the question or my tone. I had hoped to be as innocuous and diplomatic as possible.


To put what Josh said a bit more bluntly: Don't piss into the wind if you don't want some blowing back in your face.

Quoting an eccentric, bizarre mathematician didn't exactly help matters, FWIW.

Originally posted by rickreyn
I think its the gear thing, Rusty. I would venture to say most everyone here is committed to becoming a better player. They probably have their bass on their laps doing scales while they post about the nuances of the next bass they will buy,

...or, they're at work, and they're at least thinking about playing.

...or, they're at work, and they're at least thinking about playing.

True.

Here's a thought.

Why do you think less people post reviews of their basses in the BGRA or this review forum as opposed to posting pics and doing the whole "look what I've got" thing?

Why is one option clearly more popular than the other?

BGRA

http://www.bgra.net/bass-rev.php

One reason may be that it's hard to write a technical review of an instrument. It also takes time. For most, it's easier to slap a picture up and wait for the ooh's and ah's. Then comes the dribble of "what this baby can do." Some accompany their photos with review comments. One thing a lot of TBers seem to have mastered is taking professional quality digital photos of their new axes. This saves them time for the inevitable "for sale" posting down the line. Only kidding about that last comment.

Well, I put technical reviews up of my bass on BGRA and (atleast tried to) on here. But then again I only have one bass :p ... but I will side with you that once someone gets a new bass, they want to post a thread with a pic, immediately, just to show it off. I sure will with the next bass I get, and so will many people. I think people should do the reviews and post them on sites like BGRA after having the bass for a few months so they can fully critique on facts instead on the "new bass" hype.

My $0.02. YMMV :)

Originally posted by marc40a
...Why do you think less people post reviews of their basses in the BGRA or this review forum as opposed to posting pics and doing the whole "look what I've got" thing?....]

Many reasons (here goes another list :rolleyes: ) ;

- TB Reviews and the BGRA don't accommodate pictures even though the old adage says "a picture is worth a thousand words." However, one can convey the aesthetic attributes of their latest gear in a TB post. Some of the basses are so beautiful, I can see why the new owners just put up pictures. If that same owner says, "I'll follow-up later with a description of its sound/playability" that's totally cool to me.

- Many people are intimidated by the prospect of expressing themselves in a lengthy, formal format, such as "reviews".......(The folks who dreaded the "essay questions" in school). The way some reviews are written, they're an absolute mess, (BGRA has this problem big time but TB reviews seem to be well thought-out). At least TB doesn't do the meaningless "smiley faces" thing.

- They may also be intimidated by the permanence of formal reviews. You can put up a thread and chances are almost everyone will have forgotten it in about a week. Formal reviews have staying-power. I still get emails about TB reviews I wrote last year.

To your point, though, it is kind of sad when people put up threads about the gear they just bought and it hasn't even been delivered yet!!! (Youthful exuberance is understandable, though, to me). Obviously, the more important questions from other TB members are about playability and sound. But, the new owner can't answer them because they either haven't had the gear delivered yet.....OR.....the UPS truck hasn't even turned off of their street before thenew owner starts a thread about it.

That's what really bugs me, marc.....those who describe the playability/sound while the tape on the packing box is still sticky!!!! This "rush to judgment" seems to plague the BGRA.
It seems like there ought to be a request that the owner has either played the gear for certain number of hours or, at least, gigged with it, before they give their impressions of it. It happens in "Strings" all the time. :rolleyes:

I sympathize a bit with the initial poster's concern, but it seems a bit misplaced.

Looking at myself, I know that my focus on gear is frequently a distraction from actually working at my playing, and I sometimes find myself a bit dismayed that I often seem to spend time in the "Basses" area of TB (among other places) than actually playing. (At least, if you don't count noodling on the bass while sitting in front of the computer. ;) ) I'm sure others sometimes feel the same way. But that's a concern related to me, and what I'd like to accomplish as a player.

On the other hand, to look at the whole of TB and say "You/we shouldn't be focusing so much on gear..." strikes me as a bit patronizing, even though I'm sure it wasn't intended that way. It's not really up to me to tell the community as a whole what they ought to be talking about, or what they ought to be getting out of TB. As many others have said, people talk about what they want to, and if they wanted to be talking about theory or practicing or musical development, they would. I might wish that they would focus more on playing (less distraction for me!), but that's my problem and not theirs.

My $.02, and probably worth what it cost. :)

Mike

Why? This thread started with a rush to judgement.

Originally posted by Ari
This thread is pretty interesting. Several people have commented negatively on the original post... Aren't you guys getting a little too much on the defensive ? Are some of you insecure and afraid there's a part of truth in what the original poster says ? Are you feeling threatened ?

I just wonder how people come to conclusions like this:

"I think this ratio suggests general fascination with gear, and supports the idea that we think owning stuff will make us happy or make us better musicians."

How exactly does the numbers of posts (not the content of those posts) suggest this? It's an assumption, plain and simple. Take me, for instance... I've never worked under the delusion that anything besides practice was going to make me better at anything. Did the original poster know that? Did he ask? How many others feel as I do?

That's the problem and since it was posted here for discussion I'm discussing it. I'm not angry, I find these types of discussions based on a weak premise interesting. It amounts to a very one-sided guess;)

I'm just asking questions here.

I happen to agree with some of the points developped by both parties. The part on the "instant gratification" sounds right to me, I think it's true that some people want the immediate benefits without being ready to make the efforts to obtain them. It's part of the human nature, and maybe part of our culture. But the guy didn't say every member of this board is like that ! Relax guys. I don't think the original poster assumed that every collector of gear is a lazy guy who never practices and don't play well. Don't get offended because you own several basses...

Ari

Remember, you can't surmise the true tone of most of these posts. Why assume anyone is angry unless they make it clear that that is their intent?

:D:D:D

Rust, you nailed it man. You are absolutely right. Just listen to what is on your radio man. Anyone can be a musician, you just have to buy a bass or guitar ect. Music isn't getting any better folks. There is still great music being made, but what we are being told is talent.....is just a load of crap. Big music companies just find who ever the next act is that they can exploit for a kajillion bucks and then move on to the next so they dont have to pay big royaltys. Who was the last big name act to come out in the past few years that had a second album.

Sorry, I am ranting.......please forgive me.....
I now return you to your thread.

Maybe you need to change stations:D. Lowest common denominator type music has always been around. My listening habits are much different from the general public (as elitist as that may sound). I'll listen to just about anything but I don't expect everyone to do the same.

Despite what you think, anyone can't be a musician... it's not as easy as you're painting it to be.

Second album?

Korn.

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Maybe you need to change stations:D. Lowest common denominator type music has always been around.

You're so right, it's painful.

It's easy to forget that the chart competition for Led Zeppelin and Stevie Wonder was the Bay City Rollers and Grand Funk Railroad... :rolleyes: Let's not forget that while the great men of bop were tearing it up to small but fervent audiences on 52nd Street, garbage like "How Much Is That Doggie in the Window?" ruled the charts.

Looking at another TBer's sig, it's ironic that Dream Theater slams MTV now, because nobody would know about them if "Pull Me Under" and "Lie" hadn't been Headbanger's Ball favorites. Guess what other bands were big on the Ball in '92: Skid Row, Motley Crue, Poison...not exactly the finest in rock history.

There's a Sumerian stela dated to about 2800 BC that reads, "The end of the world is truly upon us. Children no longer obey their parents, slaves forsake their masters, and every man wants to write a book. Truly, these are the End Times." Every generation wants to say that they have it worse than the previous one, that they truly are the Last Dispensation and that things cannot possibly become more wretched. I don't buy it. Not for a second. There's truly fabulous music everywhere, and with the possible exception of the Beatles in their experimental heyday, it's never dominated the market.

Originally posted by BigBohn


Well, hello Jarrod, what a pleasant surprise!

As I have already said in previous posts, I think both physical image and quality of music are what matter most to the average audience member. Image is what you need to get someone hooked. Don't live in that little pretend world that image means nothing to how much quality that person has. If there is no positive image, that musician is going to lose an audience member, which could have been a music promoter or a record label president. Don't tell me otherwise that image doesn't matter at all or not as much as the quality of the playing.

Image matters if you're on MTV trying to pimp your music to the masses... but when you're playing at the local dive, people aren't going to physically leave the bar because your guitar is dinged up... that is ludicrous

and even in the case of some TRL loser, the focus will be on the person himself... all the 12 year old girls want to see band members that are "cute"... i seriously doubt they are even looking at the guitar

and besides, that is completely different situation from the one we are discussing in this thread...

All in all, other fellow musicians MIGHT give some leniency to that musician being judged and give it a listen, BUT most if not all average civilians coming to watch will be more critical of the image of the musician, but then critical of that musician's quality of playing.

maybe you're just hoping people think that way so you can feel cool owning an expensive rig?

as for "might give leniency", that is simply laughable... as if owning expensive stuff is a requirement that all musicians HAVE to meet, and if they don't, points will be deducted

"sorry jim, your band's music was excellent, but your guitar has a scratch--i'm afraid that makes you sucky, and i'm leaving now"

LISTEN TO YOURSELF MAN

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Remember, you can't surmise the true tone of most of these posts. Why assume anyone is angry unless they make it clear that that is their intent?



Well, as most debates over the internet, it's nearly impossible to guess the true tone of one's mind by just reading what he wrote. Some people here were also assuming that the original poster was patronizing, where I think he was just asking questions and suggesting a debate. It all comes down to different perceptions after all.

As you say, "I could be wrong" !

Ari

Originally posted by Ari


Well, as most debates over the internet, it's nearly impossible to guess the true tone of one's mind by just reading what he wrote. Some people here were also assuming that the original poster was patronizing, where I think he was just asking questions and suggesting a debate. It all comes down to different perceptions after all.

As you say, "I could be wrong" !

Ari

I understand your point, Ari. OTOH the first post does appear to paint with a pretty broad stroke.

I do believe that what is happening is that practice and learning take effort and concentration, whereas this site to me, is very good proof of a generation brought up on "instant gratification" - I need Tabs now!!

A generation? Please. Then again, maybe he meant it in a good way;)

The generation before didn't have the internet, does anyone truly think it would've been used differently if it was available?

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
The generation before didn't have the internet, does anyone truly think it would've been used differently if it was available?

Nah. I'm pretty sure dad wudda been looking at porn too. :)

I hate gear. I hate dealing with gear. If I had my way, I'd have no amp and one bass with no knobs (didn't they used to make ones like that in the olden days?). ;) But I originally came to this site looking for the answer to a gear question. And I'd be willing to bet that's why 90% of the posters come here initially. If you get on the internet to look for information, I think it's most likely to be about gear. Fact of life.

But I also don't see why some of you guys got so bent. I didn't find the initial poster's tone accusatory in any way. But maybe some of you are better at tone surmisal than I am. ;)

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin
It's easy to forget that the chart competition for Led Zeppelin and Stevie Wonder was the Bay City Rollers and Grand Funk Railroad... :rolleyes:

And holy crap, I just caught this. They may not be Zep, but I cannot believe you are putting Grand Funk on the same plane as the BAY CITY ROLLERS?.

Can I get a ruling on this? JimK? Somebody?

Yeah, I just compared Grand Funk to the Bay City Rollers.

I realize that the bass of Mel Schacher may have rattled many TBers' bongs more than a few times in the haze of their collective adolescence, but that doesn't take away the fact that Grand Funk really sucked. I've never heard a song attributed to them on the radio that I didn't think was big, dumb, and not especially catchy.

Originally posted by Brad Johnson


I understand your point, Ari. OTOH the first post does appear to paint with a pretty broad stroke.

I do believe that what is happening is that practice and learning take effort and concentration, whereas this site to me, is very good proof of a generation brought up on "instant gratification" - I need Tabs now!!

A generation? Please. Then again, maybe he meant it in a good way;)

The generation before didn't have the internet, does anyone truly think it would've been used differently if it was available?

You have misattributed a quote to me. I did not say anything about generations.

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin
Yeah, I just compared Grand Funk to the Bay City Rollers.

I realize that the bass of Mel Schacher may have rattled many TBers' bongs more than a few times in the haze of their collective adolescence, but that doesn't take away the fact that Grand Funk really sucked. I've never heard a song attributed to them on the radio that I didn't think was big, dumb, and not especially catchy.

but what about the competent drumming of don brewer?

Originally posted by dancehallclasher


but what about the competent drumming of don brewer?

How, too, can one forget the bare-chested guitar of Mark Farner?

Originally posted by rustyshakelford
Bill Lee once said, "We are a society of collectors, but we should be a society of learners."


And exactly what did he mean by that? A collector is likely to have a lot more information about the thing collected than the average person.


As I type this, there have been 122K posts about basses, yet there have been only 67K posts about recordings, bassists, technique and general instruction combined.


There's nothing wrong with talking about basses, gear and sharing information about it, I think it's a great thing. I wish when I had started out there was a forum such as this, that way I would have been able to ask questions about gear that I didn't get the answer to in a review in a magazine. If you want discussion about other stuff, start a discussion and hopefully you'll get as many posts to it as you have to this topic.


I think this ratio suggests general fascination with gear, and supports the idea that we think owning stuff will make us happy or make us better musicians.


Heck, who's not fascinated with gear? Who isn't interested in seeing things they haven't seen? Uh, oh, your conclusion is a quantum leap and value judgement that I just don't buy. Owning a bass will make you a better bass player. ;) On a more serious note, you're painting with a pretty broad brush here, I would say a small minority may fall into the category that you mention and even then it may just be a phase. I'm sure there's something in your life that's not completely perfect, evidenced by your dismay of what other people might be thinking. I feel for you because that's a heavy cross to bear.


Paul Erdos once said, "Property is a nuiscance."


Yeah, especially when it doesn't fit in my darn pocket! :D


I am frequently a bit dismayed returning to this site to see the overwhelming number of posts about gear.


New gear is coming out all of the time. BTW, what kind of bass, amp, effects etc do you own? How about filling out your profile? Do you even play the bass?


How can we shift the focus from gear to being a better musician?


If one shifts focus from worrying about the intentions of others, then one has more opportunity to discover things about themselves, though this discovery process can be a frightening thing.

Well Rusty, what's your point?

Well, personally, I guess that I don't see much of a problem with this. So there are a lot of people here that wanna talk about gear. Heck, that is why I first came here, because I had questions about gear. It was only after that that I realized there was a lot more to this site than just basses and amps. I could go on and argue my point more, but since I am joining this one late, I don't see the need to.

Really, the only reason I am bothering with this at all is because it is posted in the wrong forum, which happens to be the one I am here to moderate.:)

So, I am moving it elsewhere. Buh-bye.:p

It's "collectOrs" consarn it.

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin


To put what Josh said a bit more bluntly: Don't piss into the wind if you don't want some blowing back in your face.

Quoting an eccentric, bizarre mathematician didn't exactly help matters, FWIW.

I referred to Erdos as a point in contrast, as someone who eschewed collecting, and devoted his life to learning.

To dismiss him as eccentric and bizarre is to miss the forest for the trees. As well, just as I think it would be questionable to characterize Jaco in this manner, I think it is similarly questionable to say this about Erdos.

Lastly, it is puzzling that within minues of posting this message, you quoted the Sumerians. The Sumerians qualify but Erdos does not?

This is an interesting thread.

I don't know, I love bass guitar, I love talking about everything related to bass. I love talking basses, I love talking amps, I love talking about techinque, I love talking about theory, I love talking recordings, I love talking about bass players, I love talking about gigs, I just love everything about it. It's one of the biggest parts of my live and I want to absorb all I can about my chosen craft. (A craft I don't get paid nearly enough for though :D )

I'm sure people look in my profile and see that I don't have the most expensive gear, and a few probaly think I'm just some kid who knows a few Nirvana riffs or something, but when I play, I always get complimented on my playing. And I much rather get complimented on my playing than someone saying "Hey that's a nice bass" and then leaving it at that. (Not that I haven't been complimented/or asked about my equipment)

Still, I do know a lot of people out in the real world who care more about gear than techinque. They are more concerned with getting a Gibson SG and a Marshal Stack than learning how to play to their fullest potential. Most of those people never wind up in bands or do anything serious with music anyways.

I find, if I sit down and have a conversation with a real musician.......or at least someone who is interested in being a real musician, we'll talk about everything from gear, to theory, to techinque, to favorite players.

Originally posted by rustyshakelford


You have misattributed a quote to me. I did not say anything about generations.

My apologizes. I should have specified that the quote was from Bruce (you may notice I didn't say who said it). I still think the first post painted with a very broad stroke.

Originally posted by LiquidMidnight
This is an interesting thread.

I don't know, I love bass guitar, I love talking about everything related to bass. I love talking basses, I love talking amps, I love talking about techinque, I love talking about theory, I love talking recordings, I love talking about bass players, I love talking about gigs, I just love everything about it. It's one of the biggest parts of my live and I want to absorb all I can about my chosen craft. (A craft I don't get paid nearly enough for though :D )

Same here... that why I find the conclusion drawn simply by the number of posts specious at best. If ten people post in the Basses forum while two post in Technique during the same time period, it means something? It seems that some want to turn that into a negative , as usual. They can't seem to come to any other conclusion than people don't want to practice or study and are more interested in gear.

I know that when I get together IRL with other basses the conversations are not limited to gear.

I'm sure people look in my profile and see that I don't have the most expensive gear, and a few probaly think I'm just some kid who knows a few Nirvana riffs or something, but when I play, I always get complimented on my playing. And I much rather get complimented on my playing than someone saying "Hey that's a nice bass" and then leaving it at that. (Not that I haven't been complimented/or asked about my equipment)

Still, I do know a lot of people out in the real world who care more about gear than techinque. They are more concerned with getting a Gibson SG and a Marshal Stack than learning how to play to their fullest potential. Most of those people never wind up in bands or do anything serious with music anyways.

I enjoy talking to these people too and try to convey the idea that a nice bass is a nice bass but in the hands of a person who's put in the shed time it can be an excellent bass. It's not magic, it's about the work. This is also a message conveyed on Talkbass.

I find, if I sit down and have a conversation with a real musician.......or at least someone who is interested in being a real musician, we'll talk about everything from gear, to theory, to techinque, to favorite players.

Exactly. Instead of putting a negative spin on the perceived disparity in the number of posts, one could look at it as a positive thing. How many posts would you expect in the gear sections of TalkOboe?;). It's a popular instrument... that's a good thing.

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin
Yeah, I just compared Grand Funk to the Bay City Rollers.

I realize that the bass of Mel Schacher may have rattled many TBers' bongs more than a few times in the haze of their collective adolescence, but that doesn't take away the fact that Grand Funk really sucked. I've never heard a song attributed to them on the radio that I didn't think was big, dumb, and not especially catchy.

Oh, well. Guess you had to have been there. :)

I don't know anything about basses. I can't tell a Zon from a Modulus from a Pedulla. The only reason I know those names is because I've seen the info here. There are some people here who have forgotten more about basses than I'll ever know. I don't know anything about amps. I don't know anything about strings. I've never changed mine. I just play with what's on there. I don't know anything about pickups, I just play with what the bass came with.

I know some theory. I know how to teach. So, I hang out in General Instruction and Miscellaneous, (OT because I co-moderate it). If you were to do a search you would notice a dramatic number of my posts are in GI. What's odd, is I've never cared about gear. I just don't. I don't hang out at music stores, I can't tell the difference between two basses.

That's what's nice about these forums. The information is there if I need it. Do I think it's great to talk about gear all day? Hell, I don't know. I know it's not for me. But I do know that it helps the people here learn more than they already know, and helps them stay current on products. And when the time comes, and I need their help, I'm going to appreciate all the time they've spent there.

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
But as others have pointed out there is no way to prove this and it's just a feeling you get from browsing - others don't and they can "prove" the opposite !

I have a feeling that this is a feeling some just want to get. Here's a suggestion: quit browsing. Read the actually posts, don't assume you know the content of each and every one from the title. Browsing to come to a conclusion is lazy and even worse inaccurate. Then again why even browse... keep practicing.

You have (deliberately?) misread my post - I was simply replying to "rusty" and saying that it was a feeling he got (and not me) - so as others had pointed out, they read the same things and saw something different!


Exactly how many Tab requests are clogging up the forum? Tab has it's own forum, don't want to talk about it? Don't go there.

Why do any of you want to make assumptions on the practice habits of others you don't even know? This superiority thing is just lame.

Well as you very well know, this is only a recent phenomena and as I explained at the end of my post (you do read to the end of posts!!??) - it used to be a problem, but that as Paul has done such a good job, it isn't any more! Pleas read it all before jumping in and "having a go!" despite the glee I know you take in it! ;)

Secondly I don't feel superior to anybody - is it maybe your problem of inferiority? - I have said many times on these forums that the more I learn the more I realise I need to know and that I don;t feel I have time.

As I said to Ed and Chris in another forum - the thing is that a lot of us get to our 30s and 40s and realise how much time we have wasted, which could have been spent learning and we regret it - most people agreed with this. If you want to read this as "being superior" I think it's your problem!

That's "your" dream... it may have zip to do with everyone else.

Errrm.... so forgive me for having an opinion - the original poster asked for them and I gave mine - or are we only allowed to post if we agree with yours now! ? :rolleyes:

[quote] -I don't think you will change society within this forum ( :) ) - there is a sense that with the death of Communism, Consumerism is now rampant throughout the globe and only a huge financial crash or natural disaster, will stop it until all the resources have run out!

Even the Chinese want their white goods now! ;)

Maybe if we all whined more often, those damn kids would buckle down and tow the line. [quote]

Well it looks like somebody has had a "humour bypass" - I think it was pretty clear that that last part of my post was intended as joke - not enough smilies for you - sorry there's a limit!

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
You have (deliberately?) misread my post - I was simply replying to "rusty" and saying that it was a feeling he got (and not me) - so as others had pointed out, they read the same things and saw something different!

Hi Bruce. Have you(deliberately?) misread my post? I'll highlight something you may have (deliberately?) missed:

I have a feeling that this is a feeling some just want to get. Here's a suggestion: quit browsing. Read the actually posts, don't assume you know the content of each and every one from the title. Browsing to come to a conclusion is lazy and even worse inaccurate. Then again why even browse... keep practicing.

I was speaking to the original poster and anyone else who may simply browse the posts and presume to know their value. Who look at the number of posts and assume it means somnething. Notice I didn't say "Bruce", I said SOME".

Well as you very well know, this is only a recent phenomena and as I explained at the end of my post (you do read to the end of posts!!??) - it used to be a problem, but that as Paul has done such a good job, it isn't any more! Pleas read it all before jumping in and "having a go!" despite the glee I know you take in it! ;)

Yeah Bruce, this is fun:rolleyes:. I have noticed the number of people whining about people who come here requesting Tabs does seem to be down. I guess all it took was putting them somewhere where it wouldn't offend the serious older musos here. Too hard to ignore otherwise.

Secondly I don't feel superior to anybody - is it maybe your problem of inferiority? - I have said many times on these forums that the more I learn the more I realise I need to know and that I don;t feel I have time.

Trust me, I hardly feel inferior to you or anyone else here. I feel just fine. Apparently (as usual) you see absolutely one way to take what I said... the way that would offend you. Nice hobby.

The superiority thing I was talking about wasn't specifically you though you've displayed that so often here it's just background noise. It's the idea that someone looks at forum totals and decries the fall of bass civilisation. That some feel that what others do should reflect what they do. If the shoe fits...

As I said to Ed and Chris in another forum - the thing is that a lot of us get to our 30s and 40s and realise how much time we have wasted, which could have been spent learning and we regret it - most people agreed with this. If you want to read this as "being superior" I think it's your problem!

Why project your problems on others? If you're really trying to help, why not do it in a less condescending manner?

Errrm.... so forgive me for having an opinion - the original poster asked for them and I gave mine - or are we only allowed to post if we agree with yours now! ? :rolleyes:

Here's what you said and my response, in context:

Bruce: I know which I'd prefer - I would pay out all my money to go on Jazz SummerSchool every week of the year, rather than buy another bass. If I coudl get the time off work!

Brad:That's "your" dream... it may have zip to do with everyone else.

Now please show me the part where I said you couldn't have an opinion. Aren't "you" the one who reads everything? Next step: comprehension.

[quote] -I don't think you will change society within this forum ( :) ) - there is a sense that with the death of Communism, Consumerism is now rampant throughout the globe and only a huge financial crash or natural disaster, will stop it until all the resources have run out!

Even the Chinese want their white goods now! ;)

Brad: Maybe if we all whined more often, those damn kids would buckle down and tow the line.

Well it looks like somebody has had a "humour bypass" - I think it was pretty clear that that last part of my post was intended as joke - not enough smilies for you - sorry there's a limit!

Yes, it does look like someone has a humour bypass. Got a mirror?

Boys, BOYS!

And I'll browse any time I want.

Sorry Munji, didn't mean to rile you.

Anyone ever notice that everybody is always "misreading" Bruce's posts?! ;)

hey brad, off topic, i just downloaded "L.A. Groove" from the TB station. that's some cool playing!

Originally posted by dancehallclasher
hey brad, off topic, i just downloaded "L.A. Groove" from the TB station. that's some cool playing!

Yeah, I listen to that song every once in awhile. It's pretty good. That's one of the main songs that inspired me to start the "Talkbass Compilation CD" thread in the Suggestion forum.

Originally posted by jazzbo
Anyone ever notice that everybody is always "misreading" Bruce's posts?! ;)

No (further) comment:D

Originally posted by dancehallclasher
hey brad, off topic, i just downloaded "L.A. Groove" from the TB station. that's some cool playing!

I appreciate that, DHC. That was a CD session I did over the course of a weekend.

Originally posted by jazzbo


Yeah, I listen to that song every once in awhile. It's pretty good. That's one of the main songs that inspired me to start the "Talkbass Compilation CD" thread in the Suggestion forum.

Thanks, jb. It funny but of all of the comments I've gotten about that song and that project, the one that always comes to mind was a criticism that, even though I was playing what the leader asked for, I wasn't propelling the song. It's probably the reason I don't put samples up on the web, I get tired of explaining how doing a session works, especially one where the leader has pretty explicit ideas as to basslines. It didn't bother me to do it, it's part of the business, you check your ego at the door.

That and to be honest with you, I get tired of watching stuff get put under the microscope.

That's feels better... guess I'l get off the couch now;). Again, thanks... it was a fun studio experience with a wild keyboardist.

Originally posted by Brad Johnson

That and to be honest with you, I get tired of watching stuff get put under the microscope.


Yeah and the scientists at the controls are looking at a bacteria and wondering why it's not a good example of a virus.

Originally posted by jazzbo
Anyone ever notice that everybody is always "misreading" Bruce's posts?! ;)

That's probably because I am overestimating the intelligence of the readers! ;)

Well - that's what I would say if I was as condescending as Brad makes me out to be - whereas of course I would really never say anything like that - that's just what you think I would say !! ;)

Originally posted by jazzbo
Anyone ever notice that everybody is always "misreading" Bruce's posts?! ;)

OK so you have had the facetious answer - sorry Jazzbo! Now here is the serious considered answer.

I do think there is something for the "divided by a common language" thing between the US and UK.

So I realised this morning that I was having a perfectly civilised debate with "lowB" and he was understanding all my posts and "getting" the humour.

At the time, he had no location in his profile, but I noticed for the first time this morning that he is based in the UK not too far from me.

I think there is a huge difference between life in the UK and what I discern from here, about life in the Americas. But we both have our assumptions and the common language thing hides this and we think we know where each is coming from, but our lives are very different.

So - take the religion thing as an example - lots of US people mention about playing in Church, being involved in their local Church. Now in the UK, nobody goes to Church, religion plays no part in most people's lives as far as I can see from the TV,Radio, Media and everybody I know.

People think I'm weird as I did a degree in Religion and Philosophy - I don't mention it in polite conversation ! Nobody I have ever met apart from fellow students at college has shown any interest in Religion and musicians that I have met are particularly scathing about "God-botherers"!

Anyway - the point is that the "common language" covers up the fact that we are living in very different worlds.

I talk on here the way I would in real life in the UK and that would probably sound very strange in the US - so when I go to Greece or Spain, there are big differences and English tourists are always suprised by the big religion thing - but we expect differences - they're foreigners aren't they - they speak a different language! ;)

Bruce and Brad:

I concur with the above sentiment - being a Canadian, and having worked over the last 25 years for both US-based and UK-based firms I am regularly caught in the middle of these discussions.

Most of the time, you're both wrong and us hosers are the only ones with our heads screwed on right!!

;)

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


That's probably because I am overestimating the intelligence of the readers! ;)

Or yours*. Ha ha!

Well - that's what I would say if I was as condescending as Brad makes me out to be - whereas of course I would really never say anything like that - that's just what you think I would say !! ;)

Bruce, you "are" that condescending... and you're also quite capable of "misreading" too. Tee hee!

:D


*See smilies and humorous outbursts, which makes this okay;)

Originally posted by BIg O
Bruce and Brad:

I concur with the above sentiment - being a Canadian, and having worked over the last 25 years for both US-based and UK-based firms I am regularly caught in the middle of these discussions.

Most of the time, you're both wrong and us hosers are the only ones with our heads screwed on right!!

;)

I'm sure Canada is the country Goldilocks would've picked... it's just right:D

Originally posted by Brad Johnson


Bruce, you "are" that condescending... and you're also quite capable of "misreading" too. Tee hee!

:D


Ha Ha - as are you - same to you with knobs on twice - this is so funny! :)

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Ha Ha - as are you - same to you with knobs on twice - this is so funny! :)

Speaking of knobs...

;):D

C'mon guys, let's knock this off. It's stupid.

Bruce, are you saying that DIFFERENT CULTURES ARE DIFFERENT!?!!??!?!??!

Yeah, thanks for the news flash. Wow, different cultures have some differences from each other. Wow. We KNOW that Bruce. We know that there are even domestic differences. In the UK there are distinct accent and linguistic differences from one region to another, just as in the US. So, your revelation seems a little outdated for someone with your proven analytical skills. Go deeper, Bruce.

While we may be "misconstruing" your every whim, it's not that so many people are off base. So, let's let the this go, because I know you'll counter me by saying that I "misread" your post, and we "actually do agree" or some other such nonsense. I'd love to talk to you through email or PM, but that's blocked or ignored on your part, (as we've discussed in the past).

Pay special attention to Brad's recent post regarding your smiley use. It's extremely poignant.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
I think there is a huge difference between life in the UK and what I discern from here, about life in the Americas. But we both have our assumptions and the common language thing hides this and we think we know where each is coming from, but our lives are very different.


I don't know about this Bruce, I think you're reaching. Currently I'm involved in a project with a woman from the UK and she's only been in the USA about 8 months and I have no problem understanding where she's coming from, she's just another person. This has been my experience with other people that I've met from the UK.

When I went to Holland and was riding on one of the street cars I noticed how day to day life is the same pretty much everywhere, even though I couldn't speak the language the experience wasn't that much different from riding the train here in NYC, believe it or not.

Originally posted by Phil Smith


When I went to Holland and was riding on one of the street cars I noticed how day to day life is the same pretty much everywhere, even though I couldn't speak the language the experience wasn't that much different from riding the train here in NYC, believe it or not.

Y'know, I just can't be sure about that. New York is a considerably different beast than pretty much the rest of the country--I can't imagine that life for a typical Continental resembles anything approaching that of a denizen of LA or Houston!

Only because I didn't read more than three posts.

I don't smoke a bong, but I still think Grand Funk was a pretty good band. I own about 13 basses, 11 are in the closet in their cases. All I play is my Stingray and my DB. Having them doesn't make me better, it doesn't make me worse.

Thinking about something that Rusty said...that Erdos quote about property being a nuisance...

For those of you who don't know, Paul Erdos was a brilliant mathematician who lived a highly itinerant lifestyle. He'd go from university town to university town, crashing on friends' couches and theorizing all his days. Erdos didn't need property because he lived off of other people's property.

Just something I've been thinking about.

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin
Thinking about something that Rusty said...that Erdos quote about property being a nuisance...

For those of you who don't know, Paul Erdos was a brilliant mathematician who lived a highly itinerant lifestyle. He'd go from university town to university town, crashing on friends' couches and theorizing all his days. Erdos didn't need property because he lived off of other people's property.

Just something I've been thinking about.

So that would translate to: "don't buy gear, find friends with gear"?

Cool. That's been my attitude towards recording equipment for years;)

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin
Thinking about something that Rusty said...that Erdos quote about property being a nuisance...

Erdos didn't need property because he lived off of other people's property.

Just something I've been thinking about.

DON'T TOUCH MY BASSES!!!:p

Originally posted by Phil Smith


I don't know about this Bruce, I think you're reaching. Currently I'm involved in a project with a woman from the UK and she's only been in the USA about 8 months and I have no problem understanding where she's coming from, she's just another person. This has been my experience with other people that I've met from the UK.


Well I think the crucial difference is that you have met them! I think that on the net we are missing loads of vital information in virtual conversations. (which I often try to make up for with smilies to no avail)

The illusion is that we all know what we mean as we are speaking the same language but there are misunderstandings all the time.

I don't want to hammer this point - I think it was pretty clear that in the one case I pointed out, that Brad had misread my post - big deal! Jazzbo asked me a question I answered!

I must say that some people seem to understand where I'm coming from all the time - like JimK and there are some people I never understand!

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin
Thinking about something that Rusty said...that Erdos quote about property being a nuisance...

For those of you who don't know, Paul Erdos was a brilliant mathematician who lived a highly itinerant lifestyle. He'd go from university town to university town, crashing on friends' couches and theorizing all his days. Erdos didn't need property because he lived off of other people's property.

Just something I've been thinking about.

I have heard the same thing about Mother Teresa.

Erdös won many prizes including the Wolf Prize of 50 000 dollars in 1983. However he had a lifestyle that needed little money and he gave away most of the money he earned from lecturing at mathematics conferences, donating it to help students or as prizes for solving problems he had posed.

Not to be an anti-intellectual or anything, but I think Mother Teresa's asceticism was just a pinch more justifiable than Erdos'. The people to whom Erdos donated prize money could have easily gotten high-paying jobs in private industry. (Math majors are a prized commodity.) Mother Teresa, on the other hand, spent OPM to keep orphans in Calcutta from crapping their small intestine out from dysentery.

It's intellectually dishonest to put the two on anything resembling the same pedestal.

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin
Not to be an anti-intellectual or anything, but I think Mother Teresa's asceticism was just a pinch more justifiable than Erdos'. The people to whom Erdos donated prize money could have easily gotten high-paying jobs in private industry. (Math majors are a prized commodity.) Mother Teresa, on the other hand, spent OPM to keep orphans in Calcutta from crapping their small intestine out from dysentery.

It's intellectually dishonest to put the two on anything resembling the same pedestal.

Where are math majors a prized commodity? I have a math degree. When I graduated (post-Cold War), the vast majority of jobs were academic.

Erdos specialized in number theory, a field "long on tricks, short on results". With limited exception to cryptography, number theorists are only employed by universities.

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin
Mother Teresa's asceticism was just a pinch more justifiable than Erdos'. ....
It's intellectually dishonest to put the two on anything resembling the same pedestal.

His smugness strikes at the heart of the matter yet again!!:)

Hmmmm... interesting turn to the argument - this is obviously where the "action" is on TB!! ;)

Now are we going to get a whole load of TBers with huge collections of basses/amps lining up to defend the asceticism of Mother Teresa?

"Smug" won't come into it! :D

Well, if you're looking for work as a mathematician, sure, the job market's small. If not, though...

Wall Street lusts after math majors. Just because you have a specialization in an obscure/"useless" (ain't no such thing) field doesn't mean that you're incapable of acquiring skills in a field other than your own. The conventional wisdom, which recruiters have reinforced time and time again (making all of the econ majors in the room feel about a foot shorter :rolleyes: ), is that students who major in mathematics, followed closely by operations research, are the best equipped to understand the mind-blowing complexity of modern-day computational finance ("financial engineering") and advanced financial instruments and derivatives.

Quantitatively oriented MBA programs (MIT and Berkeley, most notably) eat up undergrad math majors as well. The average starting salary for graduates of the Master's of Financial Engineering program at Berkeley, where my UIUC math major brother is starting in March, is $140,000 (including signing bonus). That ain't bad.

I think the private sector angle isn't played up very highly, because quite frankly, a lot of academic mathematicians appear to be barely reformed hippies, if Cornell's faculty is anything to go by. ;)

I am glad I got a job when I did. I was quantitatively challenged, but highly qualitative. What do you expect from a ear player?

All Wall Street is lusting after right now is a few hundred points.

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin
Well, if you're looking for work as a mathematician, sure, the job market's small. If not, though...

Wall Street lusts after math majors. Just because you have a specialization in an obscure/"useless" (ain't no such thing) field doesn't mean that you're incapable of acquiring skills in a field other than your own. The conventional wisdom, which recruiters have reinforced time and time again (making all of the econ majors in the room feel about a foot shorter :rolleyes: ), is that students who major in mathematics, followed closely by operations research, are the best equipped to understand the mind-blowing complexity of modern-day computational finance ("financial engineering") and advanced financial instruments and derivatives.

Quantitatively oriented MBA programs (MIT and Berkeley, most notably) eat up undergrad math majors as well. The average starting salary for graduates of the Master's of Financial Engineering program at Berkeley, where my UIUC math major brother is starting in March, is $140,000 (including signing bonus). That ain't bad.

I think the private sector angle isn't played up very highly, because quite frankly, a lot of academic mathematicians appear to be barely reformed hippies, if Cornell's faculty is anything to go by. ;)

I also took an MBA and specialized in quant (although not an MFE), but only because the market for math majors was anemic.

I agree that financial engineering is lucrative, but this is applied math.

You draw no distinction between applied math (where jobs are plentiful) and pure math (where jobs are mostly academic).

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Hmmmm... interesting turn to the argument - this is obviously where the "action" is on TB!! ;)

Now are we going to get a whole load of TBers with huge collections of basses/amps lining up to defend the asceticism of Mother Teresa?

"Smug" won't come into it! :D

It's worth noting that Americans, probably out of guilt at the fact that our welfare state isn't the greatest, give 1% of US GDP to charity every year, compared to the 0.2-0.8% figure found in Europe. So, yeah, we're cold, moneygrubbing, materialistic SOBs, but at least we do some good in the world. ;)

Originally posted by rustyshakelford

You draw no distinction between applied math (where jobs are plentiful) and pure math (where jobs are mostly academic).

I think that as musicians, we can all agree that the market for "pure" anything is somewhat limited!

I see where you're coming from, though.

I'm waiting to see when this thread devolves into why underemployed mathematicians become underemployed musicians with so much time on their hands they spend hours on internet forums espousing their smug opinions on the meaning of life......:cool:;)

something to do with logarithmic perception and Fourier transforms....?:confused:

Given the amount of time I spend on TB every day, and how that reflects on my work ethic, I'd say I'm overemployed!

;)

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin


Y'know, I just can't be sure about that. New York is a considerably different beast than pretty much the rest of the country--I can't imagine that life for a typical Continental resembles anything approaching that of a denizen of LA or Houston!

Sure you can't be sure about it, you didn't experience the moment. ;)

Originally posted by Phil Smith


Sure you can't be sure about it, you didn't experience the moment. ;)

Hoist!

Reminds me--I need to go to Europe this year. Gonna bring some clean sheets and some increasingly worthless US dollars, and go hostel-stylin'...

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Well I think the crucial difference is that you have met them! I think that on the net we are missing loads of vital information in virtual conversations. (which I often try to make up for with smilies to no avail)

The illusion is that we all know what we mean as we are speaking the same language but there are misunderstandings all the time.

I don't want to hammer this point - I think it was pretty clear that in the one case I pointed out, that Brad had misread my post - big deal! Jazzbo asked me a question I answered!

It's just as clear that you misread mine. Now what?;)

I must say that some people seem to understand where I'm coming from all the time - like JimK and there are some people I never understand!

Understanding and agreeing are two different things. When some disagree with you, you say they don't understand or have misread you. Better yet, as in my case, they're having a go at you.

Ever had a disgreement where this doesn't seem to happen?

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Ever had a disgreement where this doesn't seem to happen?


Yes - that was my point- literally hundreds over the years on here. I was just pointing out (if you had actually read the whole post?) that lowB and I were having a perfectly civlised debate in the life after death thread - although we are at opposite poles of the debate - we understood each other and neither got "personal".

It is actually only one or two people like yourself, who take exception to everything I post and if everybody was like you then I wouldn't have hung around here so long and made so many posts!!

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Hmmmm... interesting turn to the argument - this is obviously where the "action" is on TB!!

Now are we going to get a whole load of TBers with huge collections of basses/amps lining up to defend the asceticism of Mother Teresa?

"Smug" won't come into it!
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It's worth noting that Americans, probably out of guilt at the fact that our welfare state isn't the greatest, give 1% of US GDP to charity every year, compared to the 0.2-0.8% figure found in Europe. So, yeah, we're cold, moneygrubbing, materialistic SOBs, but at least we do some good in the world. ;)

Who mentioned US vs Europe - not me! Clearly people in the US must feel more guilty about this and have to defend themselves more than those of us in Europe? ;)

I just said people with loads of basses - I know people in England with 80 basses! - how does that translate into US?

PS - how does that amount of money stack up against the billions "defrauded" from people all round the world by Anderson in the Enron, WorldCom
etc. scandals? ;)

Investing in basses may be the only safe place to be soon. I don't even want to look at my IRA right now.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Yes - that was my point- literally hundreds over the years on here. I was just pointing out (if you had actually read the whole post?) that lowB and I were having a perfectly civlised debate in the life after death thread - although we are at opposite poles of the debate - we understood each other and neither got "personal".

It is actually only one or two people like yourself, who take exception to everything I post and if everybody was like you then I wouldn't have hung around here so long and made so many posts!!



It was a rhetorical question, Bruce... (if you had actually read the whole post).

BTW if I took exception to everything you've said...

I wouldn't have time to follow the other TB martyr around;)

PS - how does that amount of money stack up against the billions "defrauded" from people all round the world by Anderson in the Enron, WorldCom etc. scandals?

Bruce, if you think that, over the past ten years, European firms didn't engage in accounting as dodgy as American ones did, you are a sadly deluded man. The only reason you don't hear more about such cases is that European firms aren't as accountable to shareholders as American ones are, since our companies aren't as likely to be propped up by the government in times of distress (although the steel tariff issue would tend to make one think otherwise).

I brought up the US-vs.-Europe charity issue because, when you start throwing around questions of materialism, it always comes up. (old man voice on) I'VE BEEN KICKIN' 'ROUND THIS HERE INTERNET THING FER NIGH ON TEN YEARS NOW, CONSARNIT, AND I'VE SEEN IT ALL. (old man voice off)

Or maybe I'm just "misreading" you.

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin

Or maybe I'm just "misreading" you.

Well you have to admit that in the original post I did not mention the US - methinks the lady doth protest too much! ;)

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Who mentioned US vs Europe - not me! Clearly people in the US must feel more guilty about this and have to defend themselves more than those of us in Europe? ;)

Do you even read your own post? You haven't mentioned the UK/US thing, like maybe on the previous page?

I just said people with loads of basses - I know people in England with 80 basses! - how does that translate into US?

:rolleyes:

PS - how does that amount of money stack up against the billions "defrauded" from people all round the world by Anderson in the Enron, WorldCom
etc. scandals? ;)

Are you saying that you think the current scandals outweigh else?

If someone has a bug up their arse about a country, I think we know who:D

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Are you saying that you think the current scandals outweigh else?


Well if you go back and read carefully - I was just saying they probably outweigh anything given in charitable donations!

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
You haven't mentioned the UK/US thing, like maybe on the previous page?


But that was about differences of language/culture - nothing to do with materialism vs. asceticism ! Keep up!

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Well if you go back and read carefully - I was just saying they probably outweigh anything given in charitable donations!

And if you actually read my post, you'll realize that this is instantly negated by the fact that it wasn't just American firms being naughty with the books.

Seriously, Bruce. You're hitting the diabolus in musica of cognitive dissonance here. On the way from Monk to Ayler, you're blowing right through Dolphy.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Well if you go back and read carefully - I was just saying they probably outweigh anything given in charitable donations!

Better make sure of your facts here Bruce - my southern neighbours (i.e. American cousins) may at times seem uncouth, but the total in charitable donations from the nation (not only internally but foreign aid etc) would probably astound you! I'm sure someone here will look it up somewhere like IRS.COM or something...

**Attempt at smug voice on**
However, they do get their backs up on some narrow principles, don't they?;)
**Smug voice off, if the attempt worked**

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin


And if you actually read my post, you'll realize that this is instantly negated by the fact that it wasn't just American firms being naughty with the books.


Not at all - I wasn't the one claiming that Europeans are more altruistic - their misdeameanours are irrelevant in this argument.

You were claiming to prove that the US were the good guys by giving so much to charity. I think the scale of Anderson's misdemeanours far outweighs anything could possibly be going on in Europe anyway - in terms of billions of dollars!

But anyway, I think we are all as bad as each other - you were the one claiming that the US was better - I don't think you have proved that in any way!

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin
You're hitting the diabolus in musica of cognitive dissonance here. On the way from Monk to Ayler, you're blowing right through Dolphy.

***bows in deference to his smugness, and shuffles off to a less intellectually challenging thread about gear***;)

I wasn't claiming we're better. I was pre-emptively tossing something on the table.

Like I said, I've been around these kinds of arguments since before 99% of Talkbassers knew what the Internet was. They follow a very predictable pattern. (It's only in the past couple of years that I've stopped having my ass handed to me in such debates, which should be instructive to any 14-year-olds who want to run with the big dogs ;) .) One might as well throw everything into play as soon as one can.

FWIW, Big O, we're stingy bastards when it comes to non-military foreign aid--but, as the research of the late, great Peter Bauer and the example of various ill-thought-out World Bank projects have shown, foreign aid can harm the well-being of developing countries if not spent correctly.

Originally posted by BIg O


Better make sure of your facts here Bruce - my southern neighbours (i.e. American cousins) may at times seem uncouth, but the total in charitable donations from the nation (not only internally but foreign aid etc) would probably astound you! I'm sure someone here will look it up somewhere like IRS.COM or something...

**Attempt at smug voice on**
However, they do get their backs up on some narrow principles, don't they?;)
**Smug voice off, if the attempt worked**

But how about 3rd World debt, how about farmers being forced to grow cash crops rather than feed their people, how about MCDonalds destroying the rainforests etc etc I could go on....?

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


But how about 3rd World debt, how about farmers being forced to grow cash crops rather than feed their people, how about MCDonalds destroying the rainforests etc etc I could go on....?

Bruce, I'm reading this post, and Ascension is popping into my head.

You talking about us down here? :eek:

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin
FWIW, Big O, we're stingy bastards when it comes to non-military foreign aid--

Oh,great let's now get Armybass, neptoon and Pacman involved in this......:rolleyes: :D

Originally posted by Pete Crane
You talking about us down here? :eek:

Whoa. I had no idea anyone lived on Ascension except migratory birds. None.

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin

[quote] Originally posted by Pete Crane [ quote]
You talking about us down here?


Whoa. I had no idea anyone lived on Ascension except migratory birds. None.

So, Pete Crane, do you talk about gear or technique with those migratory bird neighbours? Or just complain about the lack of gigs? Or maybe how anal Brits can get?

:eek: ...Did I say that??!!

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Not at all - I wasn't the one claiming that Europeans are more altruistic - their misdeameanours are irrelevant in this argument.

You were claiming to prove that the US were the good guys by giving so much to charity. I think the scale of Anderson's misdemeanours far outweighs anything could possibly be going on in Europe anyway - in terms of billions of dollars!

Considering you don't know the scale of Anderson's transgressions, what Euro number are you comparing that unknown to? And no I'm not having a go at you, I'm asking a simple question;)

Well I think the point is that if you look at the price/earnings ratio of US companies they are on average at 33 whereas say British companies are a lot nearer to the 15 which has been the long-term average.

This tends to show that US companies are way overpriced on the stock market and they must be overstating their profits and/or revenue - given that overall US companies are worth a lot more than those on the FTSE, it is a reasonable assumption that the sort of scandals "covered up" by Anderson are much bigger in the US, than they can ever be in Europe.

This also means that the market in the US has the potential for a further 50% reduction!

Plus I saw more US company execs getting carried off to Jail on the news last night! :eek:

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin


Whoa. I had no idea anyone lived on Ascension except migratory birds. None.


Yeah...there are a few of us down here ;)

Actually about 1000 people in all. Interesting place, that's for sure :p

Originally posted by BIg O


So, Pete Crane, do you talk about gear or technique with those migratory bird neighbours? Or just complain about the lack of gigs? Or maybe how anal Brits can get?

:eek: ...Did I say that??!!

Actually, we get plenty of gigs here. There are 5 bands on the island and I am the only bass player, so I get pretty busy. The Brits here are very nice...as little strange at times, but nice :p (I'm sure they say the same about us)

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Well I think the point is that if you look at the price/earnings ratio of US companies they are on average at 33 whereas say British companies are a lot nearer to the 15 which has been the long-term average.


Bruce, if person A steals $5 million and person B steals $10 million, it's more than disingenuous to say that A is any less of a criminal than B. Odds are, if their positions were reversed, the exact same outcome would have occurred, and A would have stolen $10 million.

Yes, the US stock market is overpriced compared to Britain's. Last I checked, though, the FTSE 100 doesn't have any Microsofts or Oracles on there. For some silly reason, the markets have historically seen fit to overvalue everything that has to do with computers. Theft isn't as big of a part of the P/E disparity as you'd like to think.

what's this thread about again? :D

Mel Schacher

"It's a scientific fact that music reached its peak in 1974!"

Originally posted by rickreyn


1. Bass players care more about their art than automobiles.

And, to everyones surprise, Im the lone exception to this......

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Well I think the point is that if you look at the price/earnings ratio of US companies they are on average at 33 whereas say British companies are a lot nearer to the 15 which has been the long-term average.

This tends to show that US companies are way overpriced on the stock market and they must be overstating their profits and/or revenue - given that overall US companies are worth a lot more than those on the FTSE, it is a reasonable assumption that the sort of scandals "covered up" by Anderson are much bigger in the US, than they can ever be in Europe.

This also means that the market in the US has the potential for a further 50% reduction!

Plus I saw more US company execs getting carried off to Jail on the news last night! :eek:

I had hoped you'd have a better answer than that. Apparently not:rolleyes:(Bruce's favorite smiley)

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Well I think the point is that if you look at the price/earnings ratio of US companies they are on average at 33 whereas say British companies are a lot nearer to the 15 which has been the long-term average.

This tends to show that US companies are way overpriced on the stock market and they must be overstating their profits and/or revenue - given that overall US companies are worth a lot more than those on the FTSE, it is a reasonable assumption that the sort of scandals "covered up" by Anderson are much bigger in the US, than they can ever be in Europe.

This also means that the market in the US has the potential for a further 50% reduction!

Plus I saw more US company execs getting carried off to Jail on the news last night! :eek:

I think the accounting scandals have hurt the market, but I don't think this was the prime (or secondary or tertiary) contributor.

Stock price reflects the NPV of the future earnings, discounted to account for time value of money and risk.

Pre-1992, our PE's were also in the 15's. The Cold War was going on, we had a big deficit, neither the dollar nor the US economy were doing well.

By late-90's, all of this had changed. The risk of nuclear war was much lower, we were buying back debt, the dollar was strong and the economy was chugging along.

But again, things changed.

We are running a deficit (this happened pre-9/11), the economy stalled, and although the Soviet threat is diminished, there is a new concern - Al Queda. With all this, the dollar has weakened and the stock market is hurting.

rs

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin


Bruce, if person A steals $5 million and person B steals $10 million, it's more than disingenuous to say that A is any less of a criminal than B. Odds are, if their positions were reversed, the exact same outcome would have occurred, and A would have stolen $10 million.

Yes, the US stock market is overpriced compared to Britain's. Last I checked, though, the FTSE 100 doesn't have any Microsofts or Oracles on there. For some silly reason, the markets have historically seen fit to overvalue everything that has to do with computers. Theft isn't as big of a part of the P/E disparity as you'd like to think.

Well I wasn't saying that anyone was more or less of a criminal, if you go back and re-read - as I said at least twice :rolleyes: I think everybody is as bad as everybody else - but you were saying that the US were the good guys!

But I was saying that the amounts involved in the US were much larger than Europe - you now seem to be agreeing with me!!

I was arguing that the sheer size of the amounts involved probably comes close to swamping any charitable donations the US has made! It's mounting every day!


PS it's a shame that Brad can't even manage a "rolleyes" let alone a coherent response!!! :D

No, I wasn't saying the US are the "good guys." I was tossing something out on the table that runs counter to European perceptions of Americans as greedy SOBs.

Do us a favor and don't create false dichotomies, Bruce. You do it all the time, and that's why people are always "misunderstanding" you.

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Considering you don't know the scale of Anderson's transgressions, what Euro number are you comparing that unknown to? And no I'm not having a go at you, I'm asking a simple question

Not at all - I was just answering Brad's question above! He created the dichotomy!

Originally posted by Peter McFerrin


It's worth noting that Americans, probably out of guilt at the fact that our welfare state isn't the greatest, give 1% of US GDP to charity every year, compared to the 0.2-0.8% figure found in Europe. So, yeah, we're cold, moneygrubbing, materialistic SOBs, but at least we do some good in the world. ;)

And how about this for a dichotomy!!!! :rolleyes:

If the output of the biggest US companies is over-valued by up to 50% then 1% of GDP is a drop in the ocean!

That aid number of 1% of GDP is unfortunately not true. The U.S. is amongst the least generous with foreign aid at 0.1 %. Take a look at
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp. and the picture below:

http://www.oecd.org/jpg/M00001000/M00001390.jpg

To makes things worse about half of that aid is direct military aid, and not to poor countries.

Anders: I mentioned that the US is stingy in non-military foreign aid.

The 1% figure was referring to charitable contributions, not direct government-sponsored foreign aid.

Peter, OK, it's perhaps a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. I have not seen any numbers for charity type contributions. I think it's a bit tricky to compare as I believe that type of contribution is partly tax deductible in the U.S. but not in Europe (?)

The sum total would of course be the governmentral aid plus charities. In terms of absolute amount the U.S. is probably the largest contributor, but not per capita by a long shot, and it's a pity so much of it goes to various military use and not humanitarian aid.

Originally posted by Anders Östberg
The sum total would of course be the governmentral aid plus charities. In terms of absolute amount the U.S. is probably the largest contributor, but not per capita by a long shot, and it's a pity so much of it goes to various military use and not humanitarian aid.

You'll get no argument from me on that. I have no idea why we keep pumping military aid into Egypt (and I'm not gonna touch Israel with a twenty-meter pole).

If you subscribe to the Economist, check out the survey of the defense industry in last week's issue. It really lays into arms exports.

Originally posted by Anders Östberg
Peter, OK, it's perhaps a bit of an apples and oranges comparison..... and it's a pity so much of it goes to various military use and not humanitarian aid.

Hey Pete:
I don't know, chief - after scanning the graph he posted this guy sounds pretty smug to me, too. Damn Swedes - I'd call my company head office in Linkoping, Sweden to get additional corroborating data, but they are all in the midst of their 6+ weeks of government mandated vacation.......:eek:

Hey BIg O, I wouldn't have much reason to be smug, a lot of our aid have ugly connections to exports of our high-tech weapons systems...

We're all in the same boat. :)

But just to add some actual smugness, I'm right now on my 5th of seven weeks of vacation. ;)

Originally posted by Anders Östberg
Hey BIg O, I wouldn't have much reason to be smug, ....But just to add some actual smugness, I'm right now on my 5th of seven weeks of vacation. ;)

Damn! And here I am hard at work on TB.... SSHHH!;)