What scales are good to play walking bass over a 7+9 chord?

I'm a little confused about this - while I've been playing, the major/minor scale or Hindu scale works well over this 7+9 (it's the 5th mode of the melodic minor mode). In Aebersold, the scale choice on the Scale Syllabus (middle page of 'How to play jazz') says to use this Hindu scale for a 7b6 chord. On the 7+9 it suggests Diminished whole tone.

Could it be that this is a very rudimentary list?

Does anybody have any links to a more complete list of scale/chord combinations?

I would like to look at each chord thoroughly and explore lots of different avenues.

Aebersold is a good ressource for scales/chords even if I don't agree with his notation of the alt. chord x+9 which could be seen as a x9(#5) based on the whole-tone scale instead. Besides that it is extremely helpful.

In application it depends where the chords are moving. This has an impact on your choice of notes in a walking bass.

Sly

Aebersold is a good ressource for scales/chords even if I don't agree with his notation of the alt. chord x+9 which could be seen as a x9(#5) based on the whole-tone scale instead. Besides that it is extremely helpful.

In application it depends where the chords are moving. This has an impact on your choice of notes in a walking bass.

Sly

So you mean he notates it +9 for add9 chords?

So you mean he notates it +9 for add9 chords?

No for a raised 5 and raised 9.

There is a way to write a dominant chord with a raised 5th like this: x+7.
But if you want a major 9th in the chord,it can be written x+9 for ease to read instead of x9(#5).
But Aebersold uses this notation to express a dominant chord with both a raised 5th and 9th,

Sly

I would worry more about the chord tones than the scale - you get 4 notes in a bar. Make them good ones.

What are the chord tones? I am not familiar with this spelling.

According to Aebersold's chord syllabus, it's a 7#5#9 chord with an implied b9. The example Aebersold gives is C7+9 = C E G# Bb D# (Db).

Personally, I think that this is a terrible way to spell that chord, because it could be interpreted as C7(9), Caug7(9) or C7(#9) in addition to the apparent intention, C7#5#9.

Generally I've heard that if you see a +, that means sharp five, right?

What's weird is where does the sharp 9 come from? If it's C7, fine that's dominant seven, then +, a sharp 5, and then 9 - how do you assume it's sharp?

How would he notate a chord which was 1, 3, #5, b7, 9?

Anyway, my question originality related to the chord itself and possible scales to cover it.

I don't think that just sticking with the chord tones is a complete answer, seems like a bit of a fob off. Obviously it excludes the possibility of sticking on that chord for a while, or occasionally using a run, or generally, having more interesting approaches than just chord tones only, or, simplest of all using four notes that walk stepwise rather than arpeggiate.

Can anybody suggest their preferred nomenclature for that chord? Also, say what scales they would tend to use?

I'm still confused..

Are we talking about a dominant 7th with a 9? or #9? Or #5 and 9?
What's going on?

Notating chords could be be confusing sometimes.
I would suggest to check out Sher Music's New Real Books for a great way of spelling and writing chords but there is no scale source.

I'll give you some of my interpretation of some of these chords.

C7(#9) : This is the funky chord à la James Brown. This is used with the Blues scale and in Jazz the best scale would be the Diminished Scale (H-W steps). It would have these notes C-E-G-Bb-D#(Eb).

C+7 : the other notation could be C7(#5) : Without any ninth involved in the spelling or harmony the choice is arbitrary between the Whole-Tone scale and the Altered scale know as the Diminished Whole-tone or Super Locrian. It would have these notes C-E-G#-Bb.

C+9 :the other notation could be C9(#5) This should be seen as a Dominant 9 with a raised 5. This is the Whole-tone scale.It would have these notes C-E-G#-Bb-D.
This is where notation between schools differed. Aebersold use it to indidates both raised 5 and raised 9.

C+7(#9) :the other notation could be C7(#5,#9). To me it is easier as a bass player to see at the beginning of the chord notation that the fifth is altered without having to go in the brackets to see that. This the altered chord with the Diminished WT or altered scale which is based on the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale.
It would have these notes C-E-G#-Bb-D#(Eb).

Hope this helps,

Sly

Yeah, C+7(#9) seems like the most sensible notation.

So as for scales, anyone with any ideas?

Yeah, C+7(#9) seems like the most sensible notation.

So as for scales, anyone with any ideas?

The scale that fits all those alterations is the 7th mode of Db melodic minor. This scale is called: Altered scale/Super Locrian or Diminished-Whole tone scale.

Here are the notes: C-Db-Eb-E-F#(Gb)-G#(Ab)-Bb.

You can also use the Eb minor pentatonic.

You can use a passing-tone between the F# and G# to make it an eight notes scale and put the CT at the right place,

Sly

The scale that fits all those alterations is the 7th mode of Db melodic minor. This scale is called: Altered scale/Super Locrian or Diminished-Whole tone scale.

Here are the notes: C-Db-Eb-E-F#(Gb)-G#(Ab)-Bb.

You can use a passing-tone between the F# and G# to make it an eight notes scale and put the CT at the right place,

Sly

Thanks sly

Sorry but what does CT stand for?

Thanks sly

Sorry but what does CT stand for?

Chord Tones ;-)

Sly

Chord Tones ;-)

Sly

Oh i see so that you can walk it and every fourth note will line up with a chord tone?

I would worry more about the chord tones than the scale - you get 4 notes in a bar. Make them good ones.

+1.

For a chord like this I'd hit the root on beat 1 and the #5 on beat 3.

Oh i see so that you can walk it and every fourth note will line up with a chord tone?

Yes and in an 8th notes passage as well. Every beat would be on a good note.

Sly

The scale that fits all those alterations is the 7th mode of Db melodic minor. This scale is called: Altered scale/Super Locrian or Diminished-Whole tone scale.

Here are the notes: C-Db-Eb-E-F#(Gb)-G#(Ab)-Bb.

You can also use the Eb minor pentatonic.

You can use a passing-tone between the F# and G# to make it an eight notes scale and put the CT at the right place,

Sly


Great if you're soloing. Terrible if you're trying to outline the harmony. But that's just my opinion.

Great if you're soloing. Terrible if you're trying to outline the harmony. But that's just my opinion.

I agree with you for the Eb minor pentatonic. I did included it for soloing useage,but as far as walking over a C+7(#9),every note of that scale could be seen as a chord tone,

Respect,

Sly

Well, I will enjoy trying this out and hearing what you guys are talking about!

Thanks for the advice, it's much appreciated.

Great if you're soloing. Terrible if you're trying to outline the harmony. But that's just my opinion.

Hey guys, just got back on it and back to the Major/ Minor scale (fifth mode of melodic minor), or Hindu scale.

I think this scale solves the problem of playing scales on this chord without obfuscating the harmony.

You can play all of the tones in this scale and it works pretty well over V+7+9. The scale's tones are 1,2,3,4,5,b6,b7.

I think the reason it might work better for bass to play the hindu rather than superlocrian (as aebersold suggests) is that aebersold is making the scale choice of Diminished Whole Tone (or Superlocrian) based on the fact that the list is for melody instruments, which are much higher in the register. He's translating a sharp 9 into a sharp 2, which doesn't make sense in the lower register that the bass occupies.

At the bottom of the scale, where the bass is, it's not til you get to the 9th that this scale degree is sharpened. Sharpening the 9 is different to sharpening the 2nd. In other words, the bass should play a major second and third because this fits with the low register of the chord, and should only hit a sharp 9th as a ninth, not as a second. This would explain why the hindu scale, with its major second and major third, is more harmonious.

It might be that the best answer to harmonizing this chord doesn't lie in one scale alone. It might be that the scale would change over the course of two octaves. This would make sense harmonically, as the higher chord tones are 9s, 11s, 13s etc. Maybe this calls for compound scales? (!)

At the bottom of the scale, where the bass is, it's not til you get to the 9th that this scale degree is sharpened. Sharpening the 9 is different to sharpening the 2nd.



Incorrect.



In other words, the bass should play a major second and third because this fits with the low register of the chord, and should only hit a sharp 9th as a ninth, not as a second. This would explain why the hindu scale, with its major second and major third, is more harmonious.



The major third sounds right because it's part of the chord.



It might be that the best answer to harmonizing this chord doesn't lie in one scale alone. It might be that the scale would change over the course of two octaves. This would make sense harmonically, as the higher chord tones are 9s, 11s, 13s etc. Maybe this calls for compound scales? (!)

You need more study.

Incorrect.



The major third sounds right because it's part of the chord.



You need more study.

Yes you're right the third is in the chord, I was referring more to the major second.

Ok, so explain why sharpening the ninth is not different to sharpening the 2nd.

I know that the 9th falls on the second degree of the scale if you treated the octave as 1, so for example in C major, the 2nd and the 9th would both be D, but relative to the root, the level of dissonance of a sharp 2 is less than that of a sharp ninth.

How else would the hindu scale work over this chord? There's no major 2nd in the superlocrian.

Incorrect.



The major third sounds right because it's part of the chord.



You need more study.

Why did you leave out the major second with this answer?

Aebersold is right. Play superlocrian over that chord (since its altered anyway) and by avoiding the major 2nd and playing b9/#9 you are not going to be getting that crappy minor 9th in the inner voice sound between the natural 2nd and the #9.

Aebersold is right. Play superlocrian over that chord (since its altered anyway) and by avoiding the major 2nd and playing b9/#9 you are not going to be getting that crappy minor 9th in the inner voice sound between the natural 2nd and the #9.

Okay, I understand the logic behind that.

Sorry to pontificate this, but I want to press this to understand. There's another post here about melodic minor modes over minor 2-5-1s, where it's suggested to use the 5th mode of melodic minor over the D7+9 (in bar 6, just after A half dim). This is the hindu scale (in aebersold). Apparently this is an accepted part of jazz theory as Autumn Leaves is supposed to be a classic example of melodic minor harmony. I've checked this out elsewhere and been told it's legit to do this.

But using this scale over this change leads to a major 2nd.

Aebersold is right. Play superlocrian over that chord (since its altered anyway) and by avoiding the major 2nd and playing b9/#9 you are not going to be getting that crappy minor 9th in the inner voice sound between the natural 2nd and the #9.

Also, if the logic of avoiding a natural 2nd and a sharp nine is to avoid dissonance (I take it this is what you mean by 'crappy'), then wouldn't it be logical to also omit tritones?

Honestly not trying to troll, but this thread just made my head explode

I think afromoose you are messing up things.

1) A scale is one octave and should contains all the notes needed. There is no such thing as a compound scale or 2 octaves scales.

2) when the ninth (or the second) is altered (lowered or raised),the other altered note will be in the scale because you cannot have an altered degree and the unaltered in the same scale. This goes for the fifth as well: if the fifth is raised then the flatted fifth will be in the scale.

But in the action,it is possible sometimes depending on the speed of the song to play natural second on altered chords if the walking make sense,

Sly


Sly

To me the best use of the fifth mode of the melodic minor scale is when you have a hybrid V9- to I minor like G9 going to C minor.

Sly

I think afromoose you are messing up things.

1) A scale is one octave and should contains all the notes needed. There is no such thing as a compound scale or 2 octaves scales.

2) when the ninth (or the second) is altered (lowered or raised),the other altered note will be in the scale because you cannot have an altered degree and the unaltered in the same scale. This goes for the fifth as well: if the fifth is raised then the flatted fifth will be in the scale.

But in the action,it is possible sometimes depending on the speed of the song to play natural second on altered chords if the walking make sense,

Sly


Sly

Okay fine, maybe technically there isn't such a thing as a two octave scale. They have them in Indian music I think, they tune the sitar sometimes so there are different notes in the upper register than in the lower. Certainly they have ragas where on the ascending branch you have to play a major seventh, then descending, a minor. Anyway..

It seems a bit strange that there can be a 'correct' way of doing this rather than just options, otherwise how could some people agree that hindu works over this chord, as well as another which omits the major second.

I just tried my two octave thing and it worked really well. Major second down low, sharp second and minor second up high. Sounded great!!

Also, if the logic of avoiding a natural 2nd and a sharp nine is to avoid dissonance (I take it this is what you mean by 'crappy'), then wouldn't it be logical to also omit tritones?

By that logic then dominant 7th chords wouldn't work.

Not all dissonance is bad, but a minor 9th between inner voices is.

Just so you know, every piano player I've ever played with sees a +9 and the augments the 5th too. Just play superlocrian and get past the chord.

By that logic then dominant 7th chords wouldn't work.
That's what I was implying


Not all dissonance is bad, but a minor 9th between inner voices is.
Okay

Just so you know, every piano player I've ever played with sees a +9 and the augments the 5th too. Just play superlocrian and get past the chord.

Okay, but what about the people who are saying this change is a prime example of when to use the melodic minor modes, specifically the hindu scale, with a natural fifth, but a minor 6th. The minor 6th is enharmonic with the sharp fifth so that should be okay for the piano player.

By that logic then dominant 7th chords wouldn't work.

Not all dissonance is bad, but a minor 9th between inner voices is.

Just so you know, every piano player I've ever played with sees a +9 and the augments the 5th too. Just play superlocrian and get past the chord.

Also, if a minor ninth between voices is 'bad', then what about a V11 chord? Between 3 and 11 you have a minor ninth. Does this mean that 11 chords are bad?

The flat 6 is not in the chord but in the scale. This is THE note the bass player should play when going down to the I minor.
Like this G9 - C minor: G-F-Eb-D-C,

Sly

Also, if a minor ninth between voices is 'bad', then what about a V11 chord? Between 3 and 11 you have a minor ninth. Does this mean that 11 chords are bad?

The third has to be removed.
So this is why this notation X11 is fading out and is been replace by something like this Bb/C

The third has to be removed.
So this is why this notation X11 is fading out and is been replace by something like this Bb/C

Ah, ok. That makes sense. Thanks

Okay, so let me get this straight, are you saying it's wrong to play the hindu scale over a V7+9 chord because it has a major second.

You're welcome,

Good Luck,

Sly

Also, if a minor ninth between voices is 'bad', then what about a V11 chord? Between 3 and 11 you have a minor ninth. Does this mean that 11 chords are bad?

That's why you don't usually hear that chord. #11 or omit it entirely in a V13.

That's why you don't usually hear that chord. #11 or omit it entirely in a V13.

yeah i heard of this -sharpening the 11th to make it nicer to hear. Okay.

Okay, so let me get this straight, are you saying it's wrong to play the hindu scale over a V7+9 chord because it has a major second.

It is not the best choice. The altered scale is.
But in a movement like G+7(#9) to C min,if you play G-G-A-B-C at a medium to fast tempo you might get by with it,

Sly

Okay fine, maybe technically there isn't such a thing as a two octave scale.


You bet there is.


They have them in Indian music I think, they tune the sitar sometimes so there are different notes in the upper register than in the lower.


Example?


Certainly they have ragas where on the ascending branch you have to play a major seventh, then descending, a minor.


Example?


You would not treat a 2nd any different from a 9th because they are the same chord tone an octave apart in most cases. You can specify that you want a 2nd and not a 9th in the chord but this is a rare case. It is generally assumed that you want the 9th only, and in chord/scale relationships the 2nd degree of the scale is more often then not treated as a 9.

Another reason for this is that if you had say a nat. 2 and a #9, you'd have a) excessive chromaticism and b) a minor 9th interval. Just one example of how chord tones can not get along.

To answer your question, in an alt chord with a #5, b9, #9 you'll do fine with the altered scale.

As a side note, I'd like to see where the term "Hindu scale" is used. I've never seen it used in any academic setting or text.

You bet there is.



Example?



Example?


You would not treat a 2nd any different from a 9th because they are the same chord tone an octave apart in most cases. You can specify that you want a 2nd and not a 9th in the chord but this is a rare case. It is generally assumed that you want the 9th only, and in chord/scale relationships the 2nd degree of the scale is more often then not treated as a 9.

Another reason for this is that if you had say a nat. 2 and a #9, you'd have a) excessive chromaticism and b) a minor 9th interval. Just one example of how chord tones can not get along.

To answer your question, in an alt chord with a #5, b9, #9 you'll do fine with the altered scale.

As a side note, I'd like to see where the term "Hindu scale" is used. I've never seen it used in any academic setting or text.

Oh Man,

The Hindu scale is used in aebersold, brother, as I said originally. I've also called it the major minor scale, and the mixolydian flat 6. You give me one academic text on jazz that's consistent with every other academic text, and I'll give you a delicious meal from a UK service station.

As there's so much confusion over what jazz theory seems to be - now you're saying there IS a two octave scale right? Maybe it's best I leave out getting into a discussion of Indian music. I know these ragas exist because my friend plays sitar (properly) and he told me, - I have a book downstairs as a reference but, I'd rather not get into a semantic argument over that one too!!!

Now, with the two-octave scale thing. I don't know if you've followed the thread, but I was suggesting that there might be scales where the second octave was different to the first. If you have an example of this "(You bet there is!)" then I'd be pleased to know about it. Genuinely pleased. If you mean simply that you can play a scale over two octaves, it seems a bit futile to point this out, but I was already aware of that! I've been playing two octave scales in that way for about the last 21 years.

"You would not treat a 2nd any different from a 9th because they are the same chord tone an octave apart in most cases."

Okay, on this point I do disagree - a 2nd is different to a ninth, when you're talking about the very low register. Chord tones are added from the root upward. If you read for example 20th Century Harmony by Persicetti, it puts across the notion that in the lower register, intervals have a different significance to that which they have in the higher register.

For an example try this - construct quintile harmony from C.

C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#, G#

Now, if you play the C# and G# at the correct register (which would be just over three octave above), then they harmonise with the c in the bass. You can play any in that sequence at the correct register and they'll harmonize.

However, if you play C, G, C# and G# in the same register, they will be extremely dissonant.

By your logic, though, they ought not to harmonize as they do using quintile harmony, because C# is a semitone from C which makes either a minor second or a minor 9.

So point was, a major second is a different interval to a major ninth - the distance in pitch is significant, so it could be feasible that it be treated differently in the bass. I was just trying to raise a possibility.

Here's a link to where I put up a post about the 5th melodic minor mode (hindu scale) being used over autumn leaves and someone said it was correct.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=537862

it's post #6

"You would not treat a 2nd any different from a 9th because they are the same chord tone an octave apart in most cases."

Okay, on this point I do disagree - a 2nd is different to a ninth, when you're talking about the very low register. Chord tones are added from the root upward. If you read for example 20th Century Harmony by Persicetti, it puts across the notion that in the lower register, intervals have a different significance to that which they have in the higher register.




I really think that's an offshoot of lower interval limits and related matter than of chord tones and function.





So point was, a major second is a different interval to a major ninth - the distance in pitch is significant, so it could be feasible that it be treated differently in the bass. I was just trying to raise a possibility.



Well, that's true - a major second and major 9th are different intervals. They are not, however different chord tones. They are not treated differently by chording instruments, and should not be thought of differently in this type of music. Remember, this whole discussion started with you asking questions relating to a specific type of music. You're now arguing with people who know this music inside and out.

Do you want to learn, or debate?

I really think that's an offshoot of lower interval limits and related matter than of chord tones and function.



Well, that's true - a major second and major 9th are different intervals. They are not, however different chord tones. They are not treated differently by chording instruments, and should not be thought of differently in this type of music. Remember, this whole discussion started with you asking questions relating to a specific type of music. You're now arguing with people who know this music inside and out.

Do you want to learn, or debate?

Hey, I'm here to learn - I just like to tussle with something if it doesn't make sense to me until it makes sense. The use of this scale over this chord is being endorsed in one place, and argued as theoretically wrong in others. That doesn't make sense. If you're saying it's part of the jazz idiom to avoid this note, why are there others saying it's part of the jazz idiom to include it. Hey I'm all for blind faith if it's in something consistent!

Just to clarify my statement for the 2 octaves scale,I refer to OUR Western music system and not Asian or Indian music system. There might be exception to this but I would say they are extremely rare in our music applications.

To come back to the Hindu scale or fifth mode of the melodic minor ,I mentinned that the best use for that scale is when you have a Dominant 9 chord going to its I minor. If you want to play it on a altered chord with a perfect fifth,it will clash if the chord is playing at the same time.
Like I said earlier,when you have an altered 9 and/or 5,the other alteration should be in the scale ,not the natural note.

This is why the altered scale and the diminished HW are so useful on dominant chords. The first one in minor and the other one in major,

Sly

Hey, I'm here to learn - I just like to tussle with something if it doesn't make sense to me until it makes sense. The use of this scale over this chord is being endorsed in one place, and argued as theoretically wrong in others. That doesn't make sense. If you're saying it's part of the jazz idiom to avoid this note, why are there others saying it's part of the jazz idiom to include it. Hey I'm all for blind faith if it's in something consistent!


And, as I said before, if you're walking (as you framed the question) work primarily from the chord tones. Then, approach those chord tones in strong ways. You've only got 4 notes - outline the harmony the best you can and don't worry about what oddball scales you can use.

The Hindu scale is used in aebersold, brother, as I said originally. I've also called it the major minor scale, and the mixolydian flat 6.


What texts? And I am familiar with Aebersold.



As there's so much confusion over what jazz theory seems to be - now you're saying there IS a two octave scale right?
Maybe it's best I leave out getting into a discussion of Indian music. I know these ragas exist because my friend plays sitar (properly) and he told me, - I have a book downstairs as a reference but, I'd rather not get into a semantic argument over that one too!!!

No need to bring Indian music into it at all. Play an octave scale, now extend it another octave. You have now played a 2-octave scale.




Now, with the two-octave scale thing. I don't know if you've followed the thread, but I was suggesting that there might be scales where the second octave was different to the first. If you have an example of this "(You bet there is!)" then I'd be pleased to know about it. Genuinely pleased. If you mean simply that you can play a scale over two octaves, it seems a bit futile to point this out, but I was already aware of that! I've been playing two octave scales in that way for about the last 21 years.

Not that I know of in Western music.



"You would not treat a 2nd any different from a 9th because they are the same chord tone an octave apart in most cases."

Okay, on this point I do disagree - a 2nd is different to a ninth, when you're talking about the very low register. Chord tones are added from the root upward. If you read for example 20th Century Harmony by Persicetti, it puts across the notion that in the lower register, intervals have a different significance to that which they have in the higher register.


Like Pacman said - as intervals yes, as chord tones no.



For an example try this - construct quintile harmony from C.

C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#, G#

Now, if you play the C# and G# at the correct register (which would be just over three octave above), then they harmonise with the c in the bass. You can play any in that sequence at the correct register and they'll harmonize.

However, if you play C, G, C# and G# in the same register, they will be extremely dissonant.

By your logic, though, they ought not to harmonize as they do using quintile harmony, because C# is a semitone from C which makes either a minor second or a minor 9.


I don't really understand where you're getting this from or what quintal harmony has to do with anything. You could just say that increasing intervallic distance can lessen perceived dissonance, and I'd agree with you.



So point was, a major second is a different interval to a major ninth - the distance in pitch is significant, so it could be feasible that it be treated differently in the bass. I was just trying to raise a possibility.


Yes, but in terms of chords the 2nd will, 90% of the time, equate with the 9th. There are rare cases in which a choice is specifically voiced with the 2nd above the root, such as in the case of an add2 or sus2 chord (which has a strong pull to resolve to the 3rd anyway).



Here's a link to where I put up a post about the 5th melodic minor mode (hindu scale) being used over autumn leaves and someone said it was correct.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=537862

it's post #6

Yes you could use the 5th mode of melodic minor in a lot of situations (fwiw I prefer to call it mixolydian b6/b13). If you derive the tertian structures you end up with a Dom7 (9 11 b13) which you can use to outline the 9 and b13 as tensions.

I'm not disagreeing with you. What is the point you are trying to make here?



Do you want to learn, or debate?

What texts? And I am familiar with Aebersold.

I'm not disagreeing with you. What is the point you are trying to make here?

Oh right so Aebersold isn't a text, okay. You must be referring to scientific literature on this subject or something. "Text" must be a word you get to understand after many. many years of playing jazz. Hey, when I started out, I didn't even know what a text was!! Can you believe it!!. Yeah, I even thought Aebersold was a "text"!! What an idiot... I stand corrected. I suppose Aebersold must seem like the 'Roger Red Hat' of jazz literature to you. How embarrassing.

I was trying to find out scaleS plural that can work over the 7+9 chord, not just one. as it says in the OP.

I was trying to find out why the Major Minor scale works if it's breaking this 'rule' about not having a sharp ninth internal interval.

My idea was that as the sharp ninth is added to the chord as an extension, rather than at the bottom, that this could explain the fact that a 2nd sounds fine in the bass.

It was probably a silly idea.

Moose, the thing is chords aren't voiced bottom to top. Sure, that's how they're spelled, but a pianist or guitarist will not voice them that way.

Oh right so Aebersold isn't a text, okay. You must be referring to scientific literature on this subject or something. "Text" must be a word you get to understand after many. many years of playing jazz. Hey, when I started out, I didn't even know what a text was!! Can you believe it!!. Yeah, I even thought Aebersold was a "text"!! What an idiot... I stand corrected. I suppose Aebersold must seem like the 'Roger Red Hat' of jazz literature to you. How embarrassing.


I think you need to calm down and stop taking everything as a personal attack. I was just saying that I am familiar with Aebersold and have read his work, but I do not recall seeing this scale name. Genuinely curious.

The same goes for any ragas with differing intervals in the 2nd octave.



I was trying to find out scaleS plural that can work over the 7+9 chord, not just one. as it says in the OP.


You got your answer - Diminished HW and Altered. But you can't get too caught up in this notion of what scales you have to use on each individual chord because improvisation is neither that simple or that convenient.



I was trying to find out why the Major Minor scale works if it's breaking this 'rule' about not having a sharp ninth internal interval.

My idea was that as the sharp ninth is added to the chord as an extension, rather than at the bottom, that this could explain the fact that a 2nd sounds fine in the bass.

Do you mean flat 9?

I think he means the natural 9. This is why he is stuck on that Hindu scale. It can be be used when resolving on the I if the walking feels natural even if the bass doesn't play all those alterations like in this:

C+7+(#9)| Fmin

C-D-E-G | F


Sly

Moose, the thing is chords aren't voiced bottom to top. Sure, that's how they're spelled, but a pianist or guitarist will not voice them that way.

Exactly. As just one example (which I'm sure you're familiar with but not everybody here necessarily will be), many guitarists, when faced with, say, a Bb13 on a chart, might play a 4-note voicing that goes Bb Ab D G, low to high). You could add a high C for the 9th above the A (Bb Ab D G C). In this voicing, the 7th is actually below the 3rd, and the 13th is below the 9th, yet this is accepted as a perfectly legitimate way of playing a 13th chord, and nobody claims that the 3rd is actually a 10th or that the 9th is actually a 16th.

Exactly. As just one example (which I'm sure you're familiar with but not everybody here necessarily will be), many guitarists, when faced with, say, a Bb13 on a chart, might play a 4-note voicing that goes Bb Ab D G, low to high). You could add a high C for the 9th above the A (Bb Ab D G C). In this voicing, the 7th is actually below the 3rd, and the 13th is below the 9th, yet this is accepted as a perfectly legitimate way of playing a 13th chord, and nobody claims that the 3rd is actually a 10th or that the 9th is actually a 16th.

+1

And just to add - there's no 'rule' about not having a natural or #9 between intervals.

There is a guideline (not a rule, contrary to proper belief) about avoiding minor 9s, or b9s. This interval is typically considered to be an undesirable dissonance. Not to say you can't use it though because you see it used on dominant and altered chords all of the time.

Generally speaking, the 'acceptable' tensions vary depending on the type of chord, specifically regarding what sort of 3rd and 5th it has, and how it is functioning.