Hello people of TalkBass.

Time ago, decided I will major in Jazz Studies at the College-Conservatory of Music (of Cincinnati.) So I thought: If I'm going to make this right, I should invest in a teacher. So the quest began...
I found a teacher at a music academy. Double Bassist. Bachelor in Jazz studies. His name is Derek (not really.) $45 an hour. Prefers monthly check. Bus is $2.50 ($5 total.) Day of first lesson which is at 4PM:
-20 minute walk to the Bass. To the Bus, sorry.
-1 hour travel by bus to lesson (if I had a license it would take me about half-hour. I'm getting my temps this weekend. Yes, I'm 19. But just recently acquired my SSN.)
-Attend 1 hour lesson.
-Walk 5 minutes to bus stop. Wait 15min for it to arrive.
-1 hour travel back.
-20 minute walk home.
= That means I get out of my apartment at 2:40PM. And get back at 6:40PM. :hmm:

So I am trying other teachers and testing them with questions to see how they respond, what's their approach, and attitude towards learning.

So I decide to try CCM's expensive Prep. Department. I come to know John (not really.) I am his only student. Trial lesson: 50 dollars. I contact him asking if we can have classes out of the Prep Department. Says OK for $30 an hour. Bus is $1.50 ($3 total.)

SO I decide to choose the BG (John) over the DB (Derek). My reasoning was that John was close by, and is Mastering in Jazz, so he should know everything Derek is going to teach me. I also thought, "Well, I only need direction because I already know what the schools are looking for, so I only need someone to correct me. After all, I was self teaching myself Theory." But I think I made a mistake... After looking through 20+ pages of TalkBass, I found the most useful information. So here's my assesment of these guys.

If they don't have a plan:
John: I haven't talked about this to him, though I have told him what are my objectives and keep reminding him.
Derek: He made me write all the major scales and play them 2 octaves on the whole neck. Told me we would later learn and transcribe songs, identify what scales are being used in the song, and how are they used. He looks like he has a plan.

If they equate showing you where to put your fingers with teaching you to play:
John: No, nothing like this. Though we haven't talked much about the underlying theory. Example: He showed me the Circle of Fifths, told me it is an important and useful tool in Jazz. Told to me to memorize it and practice the major scales (one octave) using the circle. I practiced using the circle but playing all the notes in the given position.
Derek: Nope, nothing like this.

If the instrument is the reason instead of the music:
John: No, I don't think so.
Derek: Nah, definitely no.

if they don't read, if they can't keep time:
John: Yeah, he can.
Derek: He can.

1. If the teacher focuses more on himself (herself) during the lesson, as in soloing on their own bass rather than merely demonstrating their lesson, avoid them.
John: Well, he does while I am tuning (when he has his bass on.)
Derek: Not at all.

2. Find out their credentials. Where have they played? For/with whom? Are they established teachers - i.e., do they teach at a local music school? You will be learning from their experience, so you should approve of that experience.
John: He's Mastering in Jazz Studies. I am his only student. I've seen him in a college Jazz concert, and he can play.
Derek: He teaches officially at a music academy. Plays Jazz Standards in a bar.
EDIT: Both have a Bachelor in Jazz Studies. The difference is that John is now working on his Masters degree in Jazz Studies.

3. Do they communicate well without a bass in their hands? If they cannot converse well, chances are that they cannot teach well either, as teaching is the communication of experience and knowledge from one person to another.
John: Yes.
Derek: Yes.

4. You should walk out of a lesson with your mind reeling. There should be SO much material that you will have to work hard to master everything presented. This amount changes with the level of the student (what challenges me may not be challenging to you or vice versa). If I'm not being challenged, why would I continue with that teacher?
John: Yeah but, seems like I am challenging myself instead of him challenging me.
Derek: Yeah, I was more challenged with writing all the major scales and playing them in 2 octaves.

5. What are YOUR objectives? Why do you want to take a lesson? What do you want to get out of it? Is the teacher able to help you meet your objectives?
I want both of them to make me able to get into college, specifically, a Jazz Studies program, specifically, in Cincinnati, more accurately, in CCM.
John is Mastering there, and Derek completed his Bachelor there.

6. Teaching environment - are the surroundings conducive to learning, or is it in the teacher's living room, surrounded by screaming kids? Good examples include studios, dedicated home music areas, etc.
John: A college studio. No interruptions.
Derek: An "office" specially designed to teach. Office sounds cheap, but trust me, it is conducive to learn.

7. It may take a couple of lessons for the BS detector to go off. As you begin to have more lessons, you can typically tell within the first lesson though. Be respectful - pay for the time, but just don't go back.
None of them is covered in BS. It's just that maybe, one of them is more able to teach.

8. Patience - a good teacher has patience with the student. If the teacher starts noodling away on his own bass while the student struggles with a concept, or is inattentive - don't give them your money anymore. Of course - this assumes that the student is prepared for the lesson. Good teachers will adjust the style of delivery to the student.
Yeah, both have proven patient.

9. Avoid teachers who are stingy with information. If they are good players, they will not exhaust their knowledge in a year of teaching, so there should never be a worry of not having anything to show you the following lesson.
Hasn't happened yet!

11. Playing tunes ONLY - there is a finite number of tunes that the teacher can show you in a limited time. The chances you'll play ONLY those tunes live is pretty slim. The ability to play any tune in a style or how to adapt to new tunes & chord structures, styles, etc. is much more valuable as a bass player (IMO). This depends on your own personal objectives & goals in playing, though.
Yeah, I am also aware of this.

Like Jeff Berlin says, a good teaches you to play music, not to play scales with a metronome.
That's basically what John (the BG) has told me to do. Practice scales and triads with a metronome.
---

John is now making me practice scales, Aug, Dim, Maj, and Minor triads, and analyzing songs (specifically if the bass is straight or swinged, part of the rhythm section or front line, improvised or groove,) and clapping and counting to a metronome to different rhythms. Eighth notes, quarter, 16th, and triplets, in different combinations. Example, clap on 1-3, 2-4, and-4, a-e, etc. He's pretty cool and nice. He offered me to sub him at a church gig he has while he is out of the country. He also offered advice when buying a new bass.

So... Should I keep my lessons with John, even though Derek's seem better? Did I make a huge mistake? Any other opinion, fact, comment, info you might add?

I guess the question is: Is it really that crucial to have a wonderful teacher and travel the necessary to get his lessons, or is it more a personal attitude thing (Get out what you put in, etc)?

Thanks!

EDIT: By the way, this is the original thread:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7194296

It sounds like you miss "Derek."

John is closer, though. And since they are both essentially teaching you the same material, you will get out exactly what you put in. If John is currently working towards a Jazz degree, I'd imagine that his advise towards earning such a degree would be most helpful.

For what it's worth, "Shopping" around for teachers was a very wise decision, and it sounds like you made the right choice.

That fact that you are asking these questions and took the time to write a great thread like this means you are on the right track.

One thing I will add is that you will not always have an instructor and any good teacher will focus on teaching you how to learn and study independent of him/her.


Great post!

Something to know about studying music in college is that you don't have any time to "catch up" for years of inexperience. I agree with Jeff Berlin that a teacher should teach you to play music and not scales with a metronome, but on the other hand playing scales with a metronome has many layers of importance (like peeling an onion) to playing music and mastering your instrument.

When you get into music school, you are going to study music. Applying it to your instrument is a lot of work done by you on your own time. College doesn't teach you how to play your instrument. Don't be surprised if you have to learn to play piano while you're there.

I can see both teachers' points of reference and both have the same ultimate goal. Derek is more on the music teaching path right now and John is more on the mechanics teaching path. This might be because it has been it has been more recent since John went through what he's teaching you now and Derek has forgotten what it was like to be at your point. Sometimes a teacher forgets what it was like learning to crawl before he could walk.

John is teaching you how to practice. Derek is teaching you what to practice. Both teachers know what is important in college. You have to decide what is important to you.

Maybe try out another teacher for comparison and give them the link to this thread to let them know what you're looking for. I don't think there's a downside to asking for what you want.

You may want to check out the link in my sig. below. There may be some threads that apply to your situation.

Btw, clapping with a metronome is an efficient method to learn rhythm and proper note durations. When you don't have to worry about the notes, the rhythm will become second nature and easier to incorporate when you do read the notes.

Ray and ilovethesechord:
I heard someone say: "A different teacher won't do any better if you don't have the right attutide."

But there ought to be a balance. You can't hire the bum in the corner to be your teacher right?

Something to know about studying music in college is that you don't have any time to "catch up" for years of inexperience.
I don't understand. Maybe you mean that since I started playing pretty late (at 18) I will have a hard time catching up with my class mates' skills?

I agree with Jeff Berlin that a teacher should teach you to play music and not scales with a metronome, but on the other hand playing scales with a metronome has many layers of importance (like peeling an onion) to playing music and mastering your instrument.
I agree completely with that statement. But, it's not the idea to make it the only thing you are being taught.

When you get into music school, you are going to study music. Applying it to your instrument is a lot of work done by you on your own time. College doesn't teach you how to play your instrument. Don't be surprised if you have to learn to play piano while you're there.
I am aware of that. That is the reason I chose college. I want to learn piano, history, double bass, theory, Indian Classical music, etc.
If music discovery wasn't done on one's personal time, Music wouldn't be music. For me, music is all about self discovery and honesty. That, no one can teach except oneself (is that a word?)

I can see both teachers' points of reference and both have the same ultimate goal. Derek is more on the music teaching path right now and John is more on the mechanics teaching path. This might be because it has been it has been more recent since John went through what he's teaching you now and Derek has forgotten what it was like to be at your point. Sometimes a teacher forgets what it was like learning to crawl before he could walk.
For my immediate goal, which is to be accepted at this college, what approach would you find more useful/appropriate? The college asks me to:
BM applicants should prepare at least two tunes of contrasting styles and tempos from the standard jazz repertoire such as “Autumn Leaves,” “Satin Doll,” “All the Things you Are,” “Blue Bossa,” “Meditation,” “I Can’t get Started,” “Now’s the Time.” The melody should be stated in a convincing jazz style followed by improvised choruses. The audition should also include a short “classical” solo (optional for guitarists and drummers). Sight reading, major and minor scales, and arpeggios may be requested.
I've been told sight reading is a must in any college.

The auditions start on January 22nd, 2010 and end Feb. 27th 2010. So I must have at least their requirements carved in my brain by that time.

John is teaching you how to practice. Derek is teaching you what to practice. Both teachers know what is important in college. You have to decide what is important to you.
I want to be able to to what the college asks me to do and beyond. But the minimum requirements are the college's.
I am not sure I understand what you mean by the last statement.

Please comment people! I need those opinions!

Maybe try out another teacher for comparison and give them the link to this thread to let them know what you're looking for. I don't think there's a downside to asking for what you want.

You may want to check out the link in my sig. below. There may be some threads that apply to your situation.

Hi Stumbo,

The first thing I did when when meeting them was making my objectives clear.
I've been practicing clapping for a week (since last lesson) It's not like I don't do my homework ahaha!

Yeah, I have that link bookmarked. I use it a lot to consult things :D

Thanks.

=( No more answers?

I have that link bookmarked. I use it a lot to consult things.

Be sure to read/study these (especially the first one):
4.COLLEGE MUSIC
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=479377 So you want to be a music major in college?
http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/ Virginia Tech Multimedia Music Theory Dictionary
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=507075 Auditioning for college jazz band
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=480154 College audition dilemma
http://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page Classical sheet music (free)

Good luck.

I want to learn piano, history, double bass, theory, Indian Classical music, etc.

I've been told sight reading is a must in any college.

I want to be able to to what the college asks me to do...

Many students will already have years of experience in all the above topics.

For example, sight reading goes beyond just your instrument and applies to sight singing and transcribing.

Being able to accurately and efficiently sight read, sight sing and transcribe music (being able to hear notes and write them out) may take hundreds of hours or more.

Being realistic about your talent and skills as opposed to your dreams and desires will put you in the best place.

Thanks Stumbo, I have read those too.

It seems to me that most people here on Talkbass either hate college or something. I already decided to go to college, and believe (firmly) that it is the best I can do and it's what I would like to do.

On the topic at hand, I made a decision too.

Thanks to those who gave suggestion, and opinions.

EDIT: Close thread.

I'd take the one closer, but thas becasue I'm a lazy bugger.