I get the feeling that this is something stupid to ask about,
but I really need some help with my counting. It's my biggest
stumbling block whenever I sit down and try to read a piece.

The biggest problems come from sixteenth-eighth patterns, also any advice on counting these patterns in 12/8 and 9/8 would be helpful. Sorry for the badly worded question guys, thanks in advance for any help.

I think i know what you are getting at although i don't have an "official" answer.... i try not to count higher than three. so any pattern can be broken in to beat segments smaller than that. then tap your foot on the ones.

the way i count a simple seven for example is: 1-2-1-2-1-2-3. or nine might be 1-2-3-1-2-1-2-1-2. 12 could be 1-2-1-2-3-1-2-1-2-3-1-2.

so basically take any number of beats and see how many different ways groups of 2 or 3 beats fit into that number. then arrange them any way you like then tap your foot on the ones

hope that helps

(although i don't know how this would apply to reading being that i don't typically read music)

9/8 and 12/8 are in compound time, as you know, and are made up of three dotted quarter notes (dotted crotchets) and four dotted quarter notes (dotted crotchets) respectively, in case you did not know.

Splitting each the top number into groups of two, three and four will show you where the main beats are and gives you an idea where to conduct from. Its what works best for you so experiment with some different counts and see which one gives you the feel you want to work with to achieve the signatures. If you have too, use a nome to get the feel, but you do the counting. Good luck and have fun with it.

and if you combine the info from fishsticks & Fergie Fulton's posts above, you'll come to recognize that those strong ("main") beats are the ones where your foot will naturally want to tap...or, if not, where you should learn to feel those foot taps until they come naturally. (And then until you just feel them internally without having to tap your foot at all. But first things first...)

So in compound time signatures (9/8 & 12/8) you should feel that strong pulse once for every group of three eighth notes. So 9/8 will have three strong beats, each of which itself is subdivided into three small beats:

1 -- 2 -- 3 -- | 1 -- 2 -- 3 -- |

1 23 2 23 3 23 | 1 23 2 23 3 23 |

In simple time signatures (i.e., 4/4 or 3/4) the "main" strong beats are subdivided in halves rather than thirds. So 4/4 will have fourstrong beats, each of which itself is subdivided into two small beats:

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - |1 - 2 - 3 - 4 -|
1 2 2 2 3 2 4 2 |1 2 2 2 3 2 4 2 |

I don't think I understand Hoover, I thought 4/4 had two strong and 2 weak beats, i.e. 1 and 3 are strong and 2 and 4 are weak or "up beats"

Also that seems like an overly complicated way to count in 4/4 rather than just counting 1 and 2 and 3 and 4.

Great thread as counting is also my achilles heel and I can't count and play at the same time for sh*t

I don't think I understand Hoover, I thought 4/4 had two strong and 2 weak beats, i.e. 1 and 3 are strong and 2 and 4 are weak or "up beats"

Also that seems like an overly complicated way to count in 4/4 rather than just counting 1 and 2 and 3 and 4.

Great thread as counting is also my achilles heel and I can't count and play at the same time for sh*t

Both are right. In fact, all the above examples are OK.

So what's the clue? Let me give a shot.

Measures and beats can be subdivided into segments, either two halves or three thirds (I leave out more complicated possibilities, like irregular bars, 5/8 and such). The first half (or the first third) of a segment is called 'strong'. The other half (or the remaining two thirds) we call 'weak'.

The grade of subdivision is often dictated by tempo. In slow pieces there's more need to subdivide measures or beats. In fast pieces beats are often combined. Otherwise we cannot feel the tempo properly.
Another reason for subdivision is complexity, like in syncopated music. In syncopated music the natural accent on a 'strong' part of a beat shifts to a 'weak' part.

A few tips:
- if you don't 'get' the rhythmic structure of sheet music, put your bass aside, and try to tap it with your hands
- once you start unsterstanding the stuff, tap it with metronome support
- on complex patterns, start slowly, build up to normal tempo
And the most vital:
- when necessary, subdivide long notes to the level of the shortest notes in the pattern

Only after you've become familiar with the notes, pick up your bass and play, and again: start slowly.

Hope this beats your problems.

As it happens I was just hacking my way through "With a Little Help From My Friends", which is in 12/8

It feels like waltz time. 123 223 323 423, I find that as ChrisK suggested, I "follow my foot". In this song at least the strong beats stand out. But I could easily get lost if I did not know the tune or if it were faster.

In odd time be careful to not assume, oh 5/8 is always 1,2,1,2,3. Always look at the phrasing in context. Also listen to meshuggah, you will start to feel odd times and grove with them more instead of stumbling about. You should do other thing too, buy seriously my sense of time is very flexible after listening to the "Nothing" album.

Vetchking Here:

It sounds like a few Saturday afternoons spent with a good Teacher could help a lot.

It would be time and money well spent. Once you learn how to count.

It stays with you forever.

Have a Great One .............. Later