Hey I was just wondering your opinion on the role of the bass player. As I continue to develop my playing I have found a desire to be able to play solos and have a more of a lead role in terms of playing songs. (For example, John Entwistle or Victor Wooten) This does not mean I pull from the traditional role of the bass groove, but instead of a "bass groove and guitar solo" type format, I enjoy taking the solo once in a while for myself. (Not to sound cocky)

What do you think? Is this a sin for the bass? Do you believe the bass should only play the supportive role or can it stand as a soloing instrument?

IMO, there's a place for everything, w/in reason. If you're backing up an established artist, subbing or sitting in, there will likely be fairly strict requirements. If you want to keep that type of gig & get more, I'd suggest you lean toward supportive/grooving/ cooperative. Going solo? Play Bach-meets-the-Sex-Pistols w/a-dab-of-Dave-Brubeck on a 19-string, midi-synced, glow-in-the-dark triple-neck monster, or a 2-string cigar box POS. Of course there's lots of room between these two extremes, as well as worlds of possibilities far outside of the box I've presented. Most importantly(again- IMO), put as much love as you can into it all, and it will show. :cool:

google reed mathis. IMO, he is the "perfect" player.

his grooves are tight and in the pocket. his walking basslines are amazing, and his extended bass solos drenched in whammy and wah pedals is enough to make even the most pompus bass-solo-hating-guitar-shredders admit, its cool.

when it comes to being one of the players that does take solos and that sort of thing, that doesent mean to overplay when its groove time. but when its your solo, you can get as bizarre as you want- but IMO the problem with most of the bass players that are able to rip, is that they never stop ripping. this is what i love so much about reed's bass playing...

Well, its not a sin, first of all. Second, you listed two players who are the idols of many bass players around the world who took, or still take, many solos. The bass can solo, and there is nothing wrong with it at all. I saw Stu Hamm play a solo at a Satriani concert that blew my mind because it was still melodic, even with all the technical playing he was doing.

But, soloing on the bass isn't for everyone and there is nothing wrong with either approach. In my particular case, I have been in bands where I was encouraged to take a solo and I shied away from it. I got plenty of recognition at gigs for my playing without ever taking a solo and I never felt like it would have suited the music we were playing.

I also play bass in a prog-metal band where the guitar player wrote a song with a lengthy bass-solo section, doing so with me in his mind. I was not comfortable with it, but since he thought enough of me to do this without my ever seeking that kind of limelight, I took it as a very big compliment and tried my best to do a competent solo. And I think the results were pretty good, I don't cringe too much when hearing it now. :) But, I would rather try to make a statement with my rhythm playing because I think that is what people will remember more. When you look at a guy like Geddy, he takes very infrequent and brief solos, but his bass lines can be very technical and demanding, yet still have an essence of groove and/or melody. That is the approach I prefer.

That said, my approach may not be the same as yours and that doesn't make either one of us wrong. If you feel the need to solo, and you have something worth saying on the instrument, you should find a way to work some soloes in. My only advice would be too not neglect the rhythm for the sake of a good solo.

eye candy plain and simple.

work it well my bass brothers/sisters

I decide what the role is...I don't allow myself to be boxed into a role just because some people think that's how it goes. However, I also do it for a living, which means I need to be tolerant of the different roles the people paying me want for bass. If it's a box I don't feel comfortable with (happens a lot less these days than it used to), I don't take the gig. So if you want to do solos and stuff, don't take a gig in an AC/DC cover band.

well, it's a great question. I would have to agree with Double Agent, it's very hard to play a solo if you're playing in a rock band. People may find bass solos boring (as they do with drum solos), so if you 're playing some solo, you'll need to wisely choose what you're going to play.

Hey I was just wondering your opinion on the role of the bass player. As I continue to develop my playing I have found a desire to be able to play solos and have a more of a lead role in terms of playing songs. (For example, John Entwistle or Victor Wooten) This does not mean I pull from the traditional role of the bass groove, but instead of a "bass groove and guitar solo" type format, I enjoy taking the solo once in a while for myself. (Not to sound cocky)

What do you think? Is this a sin for the bass? Do you believe the bass should only play the supportive role or can it stand as a soloing instrument?

I think bass solos are as good or bad as those of other instruments.
If done well they can be a very musical experience.
If done wanky and tasteless, they can be a major annoyance.
Just like with any other instruments' solo.

If you mind the music you'll be fine!

the problem with most of the bass players that are able to rip, is that they never stop ripping.

Hit the nail square on the head with this one!

Personally, I think of myself kind of like a movie director. If the director of a movie does a great job directing, you aren't even aware that he was there in the first place.

I strive for a certain amount of invisibility, but my main goal is not to be unnoticed, but rather to try and make sure the vocalist and guitar get noticed. I feel I do my job best when I'm making the people out front stand out. My drummer and I like to say we set a stage large enough for the other guys to perform Hamlet on. At least we consciously try to anyway.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a smokin hot bass solo. There's absolutely nothing wrong with pedaling on the root if it enhances the guitar solo either.

Do you believe the bass should only play the supportive role or can it stand as a soloing instrument?

I believe that every band member should be in a supportive role first and foremost. If that is happening, everything else pretty much takes care of itself. ;)

Not much of a fan of "soloing" as far as devoting total attention to the bass players role. I believe in the "get out and push" school of bass playing. Wait for the little holes in the composition to take their heads off, then get back to business. Make what you do more of a surprise to the listener.

Of course, I kinda suck as a bass soloist, so I may be a little biased ;)

Whatever floats your boat, man!

For melodic bass playing in a blues environment, I'd recommend "Tons of sobs" by Free - totally blows me away every time I listen to it. To me, blues bass just doesn't get any better than this.
Well, it's not bass soloing per say, but that kind of playing adds so much more to the songs.

You spend years learning how to play because you want to create music.. not because you want to pigeonhole yourself. Every musician needs to sever themselves from the idea that they fill a role, and put their energy into serving the music.

All the best tunes out there give each and every instrument room to breathe. Sometimes the bass stays in the background and establishes rhythm. Sometimes the bassist is up front shredding. The same holds true for a guitarist, a drummer, a violinist, a brass player.. every single instrument ever made is used best when it grabs attention when it needs to, and provides a solid foundation when it doesn't.

With that in mind, I think determining roles is not helpful at all. Instead spend your time learning styles and techniques, which will keep you flexible enough to find a "role" no matter what situation you're in.

The ROLE of the bassist is the same no matter what. To connect the rythym to the melodic/harmonic content, and to define the harmony. But, as Jack Bruce said in a Guitar Player Magazine interview way back around 1974, just because that's the traditional role, one doesn't have to fulfill it in a traditional manner. Look at Jamerson's classic period. Those lines were bass solos, but maintained the supportive function. And Jaco (at least when he was coherent), Wooten, Entwistle, Stu Hamm, etc. all know and fulfill that funciton too.

The problem seems that when we talk about Jack Bruce, Vic, Jaco, etc. is that too many folks only focus on what they do when they're soloing. It's like Jimi Hendrix. Too many guitarists don't have a CLUE about JH's mastery of the guitar as a rhythm instrument. And I don't think (at least with the artists specifically mentioned) that it's the artist's fault. All have been clear that the flashy stuff is only a part of the picture.

So, if you hear the music with the bass leading it then go there. But be warned that some people (bassists and non-bassists alike) assume that's blasphemy. I was once fired because "bass players don't play chords" (to which I replied "Well I figured somebody should play the right one once in a while"...). There are folks here who espouse the "no money above the fifth fret" mantra. There are guitarist who'd kill you if you tried to play like Entwistle. There are drummers who'd freak if you played like Jamerson.

So, part of maturity is to be able to be sure you're always serving the MUSIC, not your instrument nor your ego.

jte

Role of the bassist? Play louder than the guitar? :hiding:

I agree that There is nothing sinful with any instrument taking any role (well maybe drums replacing flutes...)

But personally, I play bass because I love to play bass lines...I love the "traditional Role" as JTE describes above.
I enjoy the challenge of serving the music.

I believe that every band member should be in a supportive role first and foremost. If that is happening, everything else pretty much takes care of itself. ;)

+1
:)

Also, IMO the bass player can take several roles(admittedly 99% of the time it works best in the *traditional* role, w/e that means :D). My favorite role, though is *Invisible Butt Shaker* :cool:

I believe that every band member should be in a supportive role first and foremost. If that is happening, everything else pretty much takes care of itself. ;)
Oh yeah!

Personally, I'd rather be a solid foundation with a non-existent solo, than the other way 'round (clumsily worded, but you get the point...I hope).

to make music

to make music

Simple as that. A bassist's role is to play the bass, nothing more. Too many people view the bass as it has traditionally been used in rock and jazz and think that's the role it needs to take. I've never heard anyone say that the role of the piano is to do so and so or the role of the guitar is to do this or that, etc. That's because so many people have used those instruments in such a wide variety of completely traditional to completely avante-garde musics that giving them a defined "role" would be ridiculous. Bass guitar should be no different.

I totally agree. I think Pete Townshend's whereabouts that night in Vegas should be investigated.
The ROLE of the bassist is the same no matter what. To connect the rythym to the melodic/harmonic content, and to define the harmony. But, as Jack Bruce said in a Guitar Player Magazine interview way back around 1974, just because that's the traditional role, one doesn't have to fulfill it in a traditional manner. Look at Jamerson's classic period. Those lines were bass solos, but maintained the supportive function. And Jaco (at least when he was coherent), Wooten, Entwistle, Stu Hamm, etc. all know and fulfill that funciton too.

The problem seems that when we talk about Jack Bruce, Vic, Jaco, etc. is that too many folks only focus on what they do when they're soloing. It's like Jimi Hendrix. Too many guitarists don't have a CLUE about JH's mastery of the guitar as a rhythm instrument. And I don't think (at least with the artists specifically mentioned) that it's the artist's fault. All have been clear that the flashy stuff is only a part of the picture.

So, if you hear the music with the bass leading it then go there. But be warned that some people (bassists and non-bassists alike) assume that's blasphemy. I was once fired because "bass players don't play chords" (to which I replied "Well I figured somebody should play the right one once in a while"...). There are folks here who espouse the "no money above the fifth fret" mantra. There are guitarist who'd kill you if you tried to play like Entwistle. There are drummers who'd freak if you played like Jamerson.

So, part of maturity is to be able to be sure you're always serving the MUSIC, not your instrument nor your ego.

jte

I agree with alot of the other guys here that It just depends on the music and the taste of the folks that you are playing with. I found myself, that it took experience to learn when and where to play certain things... For instance when I was a young lad I used to hammer the strings like an 800 pound gorilla and dazzle every one I met with lightning fast distorted solos, I got a gig filling in for a bass player in a 70's/ 80's Top 40 type cover band (Not my favorite type of music, but there was money involved) and I sounded totaly out of place with those guys... From what I remember It sounded like Lemmy from "Motorhead" jamming with "Pink Floyd". I guess what I am trying to say is if it don't fit, it just don't fit.

Simple as that. A bassist's role is to play the bass, nothing more. Too many people view the bass as it has traditionally been used in rock and jazz and think that's the role it needs to take. I've never heard anyone say that the role of the piano is to do so and so or the role of the guitar is to do this or that, etc. That's because so many people have used those instruments in such a wide variety of completely traditional to completely avante-garde musics that giving them a defined "role" would be ridiculous. Bass guitar should be no different.

Well, I look at "bass" as the function, not the instrument. The left hand of the piano has a function, the double bass has a function in the orchestra, the pedals on the pipe organ (or Hammond, thank you Jimmy Smith!!) have a function. Heck, in classical and most folk music the bass strings of the guitar have a function. So the function is way beyond the instrument. As a bassist I'm expected to fulfill the bass function and I use an electric bass to do so.

Now, the point is that we don't have to do it the same way it's always been done. Nor do we have to eschew stepping out of that role when the music calls for it. As Jack Bruce pointed out (this time in a Guitar World Magazine interview with Billy Shehann), in jazz the guitar (and its predecessor,the banjo) was pretty much defined as a rhythm section instrument for much of the history. As people explore the instrument's potential and as technology made being more audible with single notes, that role expanded. Some would say the role of guitar hasn't expanded, but diminished due to so many guitards who can't play rhythm to save their lives, but I digress.

There's a bass function that the electric bass fulfills. But we're not limited to fulfilling only that function, and we're not limited to fullfiling it in the prescribed manner.

jte

I totally agree. I think Pete Townshend's whereabouts that night in Vegas should be investigated.

Nah, not at all!! Pete never was one for weedly weedly solos. Heck that whole band is weird. Pete's guitar often fulfilled the drum function because Keith was all over the place. That meant Ox had to cover the harmonic definition and instumental lead functions. My point being that if most of us tried to play like Entwistle in a typical R'n'R band, the drummer and guitarist wouldn't be able to work with it.

Then again, I can't blame them, as too many bassists who try to play like Entwistle, Jack Bruce, Andy Faser, Jack Cassady, or Phil Lesh don't do a very good job of it either. All of them push(ed) and frequently exploded the boundaries of "bass function" while still serving the music and that function.

jte

WWHRD?

Its role is irrelevant. I'll play it however I want to.

I'm back in funk/r&b bands now from jazz and I expect to have a little sunshine (spotlight) on me at least once a set. When you're out front, play it with a stompbox running and you gunning. When you're in the rhythm section play to integrate.

There's a bass function that the electric bass fulfills. But we're not limited to fulfilling only that function, and we're not limited to fullfiling it in the prescribed manner.

jte

My point is that we don't have to fulfill that function at all. I've mentioned it a few times before on TB, but I once jammed with someone on a hand drum and someone else on a didgeridoo. Fulfilling the stereotypical bass function (whether bass as a musical frequency or bass as the instrument) would have made for boring music in that context. Musicians can make all sorts of great combinations like that- I've heard some songs where the guitar played rhythmic, low register chords and the bass was purely melodic and they sounded great. Electric bass certainly does sound great as the lowest instrument in a group as it does being the go-between of the rhythm and melody, but hearing it and playing it in ways that completely ignore those functions opens up a lot of possibilities for interesting music. Also opens up the possibilities for a lot of terrible music though :D

i believe since music is an art you cant effectively say any instrument has a specific role so just play what you like. :D

Do whatever the musical situation calls for. To say that the bass has a "specific" role in music is a simple way to pigeonhole technique and musical expression.

i love how justin chancellor of tool uses his bass.

that's the way, in my opinion, it should be. i lead and much as i support and, while i don't flat out solo (no one in my band really does), i show some chops.

I think there's a time and place for everything on the Bass. We don't always get the melodies, or the fun running parts, but we carry song. However, there's always room for the bassist to take the melody, and even rock out a solo as long as you know what you're doing musically.

In terms of stage presence, be more out there than the guitar player. Who says we should be limited to plucking in the back corner just because our parts typically don't hold the melody? I rock out just as hard right next to the guitarists. Grab attention and hold it ;]

I think Jack Bruce with Cream embodies a nice relationship between bass/guitar/drums. It really depends on the genre, as with any instrument.

i love how justin chancellor of tool uses his bass.
For me, it's Chris Squier - he's not necessarily playing a second lead or anything, but it's also not a 'traditional' bass player's role. Chris and JPJ are why I started playing bass way back when, and came back to it last year.

I play lead bass im my band, but you know i think bootsy said it best..

Bump bump bump on the root note and whatever you put in between that is your perogative and that makes the way you play you, just make shure you dont let the bottom end fall out, as thats what we are there for..

sorry for the paraphrase..

Until Jaco came out it was supossed to be a "background" instrument. Until Larry Graham came out it was supossed to be a "play with your fingers only" instrument.

I don't think that there's such thing as "role" it's a big word IMHO, just play what the music asks you to play and you'll be fine

Until Jaco came out it was supossed to be a "background" instrument. Until Larry Graham came out it was supossed to be a "play with your fingers only" instrument.




There are many who would disagree with you...

Milt Hinton
Sam Jones
Ray Brown
Scott LaFaro
Mingus
Jimmy Blanto


And literally dozens of others.




I don't think that there's such thing as "role" it's a big word IMHO, just play what the music asks you to play and you'll be fine


But I won't argue with you about that :)

I'm a rock/metal player and I have always thought of my role as the "glue" of the band. The drums hold the beat steady and the guitars riff away. My job is to "weave" the guitars and drums together and accent either. I can create tension, harmonize, double, thicken, or drop out to add color. My style is rather up front, a la Iron Maiden maybe, so I like to lead lots of bits and riffs, take breaks, leads, etc. "Less is More" is still a fave saying, aka "when it doubt, leave it out". I think you cannot underplay, but you can def overplay. Thank god that some dudes do too. I love listening to people like Geddy overplay! Different roles for different players and styles.

I'm usually playing a melody right under my lead, with my first notes almost always being the root of the chord in that particular bar. Our rhythm and drummer take on the role of time keeping. However, I do straight 8th notes and single-note rhythms when the part calls for it, but other than that, my band really lets me let loose on whatever I can come up with.

My observation is that most solos are over done and lack taste and feel.

I'm more a fan of instrumental breaks (4-6 bars) then back into the meat and potatoes of the tune.

Most folks appreciate a break down more than a solo (when it comes to bass).

Tim

...my band really lets me let loose on whatever I can come up with.
That's cool, and when I'm lucky enough to find a band myself, I hope to have that happen for me also (and be able to back up that trust...).

There's some interesting musical ground between soloing and pedaling roots. Some of the classic rock artists used an arrangement with the bass playing sort of a "song within a song" rhythm/melody where the bass is playing a distinctive line between the rhythm guitar and drums. Examples would include older Heart, Yes, Rush, Styx, Kansas, Elton John, etc.

Listen closely to the bass lines of Heart's "Crazy on You" to really hear what I mean. There is plenty of space in the overall arrangement for the bass to work around in and it really stands out this way.

More modern examples of the approach include RHCP and Rancid although it's much less common in music these days than it used to be.

...RHCP...it's much less common in music these days than it used to be.
Which is one reason why I like RHCP a lot.