Kinda of a highjack from the thread on odd timing...
Who here actually counts?
I've been a feel it player myself...or I just can't count and hit my marks :D

You have to count to be accurate and feel to be in the groove. You can't have one without the other an not make mistakes. Isn't there something about walking and chewing gum ...

yeah I know you need to count on some stuff, like a drum intro, or maybe a break..even then my timing on hitting my "mark" get's messed up if I count it :help: I just "feel" it...maybe I need to work on that..but heck it's worked for me for 20 yrs..most the time :bassist:

I both count and feel it. I have been in music for 7 or so years, and I've used both, depending on the song/style.

I tend to count it until I get a feel for it. That is: if i count it enough times I start to just feel it.

I counted in my early days. Eventually counting just became another subconscious part of "feeling it".

Quoting Bootsy the Great from his highly educational funk formula video :

ONE
hu hu hu hu
hu hu hu hu
ya know!
ONE
than you can change it
huhu huhu hu
ya know!

One, Two, ya know, Four

Why do counting and feeling it have to be mutually exclusive concepts? They're really not.

Why do counting and feeling it have to be mutually exclusive concepts? They're really not.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

I tend to get frustrated very quickly with people that can't do both.

I'd love to see somebody get by "feeling" mixed meter grooves when they're sight-reading them.

I don't know if you need this explanation or not but the thing about counting is to anticipate where the beat occurs and play simultaneously (or at least in time) with the next beat. We don't count one, two, three, four, one then play; we play on the one, getting the feel for where it (one) will fall by counting.

Lots of things will throw off accurate counting of a beat or tempo but they can be worked through and eventually overcome. Using a metronome to practice and play with is one way, learning to identify the time cycle of a phrase in a song is another.

If getting by most of the time is enough for you, great! If you want to be a better musician, and feel working on time will help, fantastic. If I have gone up the wrong tree, I apologize.

Check out Sister Moon on Herbie Hancock's Possibilities or Filthy Habits from Frank Zappa's Sleep Dirt and try counting and feeling the beat.

i've been playing for like 5 years and recently started lessons.. man o man counting is so hard, and i got a decent sense of timing but counting and playing the simpliest of things has been a real challenge. reading rhythm notation is what i'm working on

i've been playing for like 5 years and recently started lessons.. man o man counting is so hard, and i got a decent sense of timing but counting and playing the simpliest of things has been a real challenge. reading rhythm notation is what i'm working onHang in there man. It's really worth it in the end.

My goal is always to "feel" it but if I'm reading music I'll usually count it the first couple of times.

If I'm playing a repetative part I used to and somtimes still count the bars initially but feel them after a few times through. I can easily feel the 4 bar mark, 8, 16 etc

I attended a jazz clinic run by NYC (well la tee da) session guys who when asked the question about playing and counting mixed and/or odd time signatures, stated that the goal was to feel the rhythm.

The goal IS to feel the rhythm, but how do we figure out the feel of the rhythm? By counting until it's second nature to us. Really, this shouldn't even be a discussion. You need to count until you feel it. And even once you're feeling it, you should still keep a count in the back of your mind just to keep you on the right track. They are not exclusive "one or the other" concepts. They work together.

Why do counting and feeling it have to be mutually exclusive concepts? They're really not.

I agree. "vs." doesn't apply. It brings "inhale vs. exhale" to mind when talking about breathing. Sure, some will say they only do one or the other but really...
:cool:

The goal IS to feel the rhythm, but how do we figure out the feel of the rhythm? By counting until it's second nature to us. Really, this shouldn't even be a discussion. You need to count until you feel it. And even once you're feeling it, you should still keep a count in the back of your mind just to keep you on the right track. They are not exclusive "one or the other" concepts. They work together.

You could say that feeling is just internalized counting.

If your band is playing James Brown, you better be counting!

Hang in there man. It's really worth it in the end.

Thanks man, one thing that fudges me up is like saying the number in my head + tapping foot at same time... I mean if i can tap my foot i WILL be on time..of course not if i'm sight reading(which is my goal). so i find my self counting and not tapping my foot when practicing my reading rhythm notation, and i always remember my first bass teacher (who i respect alot, and would have kept studying with if i hadnt moved) used to preach never let your foot stop moving! lol its a work in progress. can't wait till it's second nature and i'm walking along to the standards @ the jazz jams...:bassist:

Thanks man, one thing that fudges me up is like saying the number in my head + tapping foot at same time... I mean if i can tap my foot i WILL be on time..of course not if i'm sight reading(which is my goal). so i find my self counting and not tapping my foot when practicing my reading rhythm notation, and i always remember my first bass teacher (who i respect alot, and would have kept studying with if i hadnt moved) used to preach never let your foot stop moving! lol its a work in progress. can't wait till it's second nature and i'm walking along to the standards @ the jazz jams...:bassist:
Exactly...it's a work in progress. Don't get impatient. You're on the right track.

I always like to feel the song and know the changes but sometimes, especially playing stuff I've never played before and weird odd time stuff, I have to count. There are times in our music where there's nothing going on but vocals singing one note and I have to bring it back in a beat before the drums kick in. I can't necessarily feel that so counting is my only option. If I screw up then everyone screws up.

Man you forgot the both option. I really think both can be just as important as the other.

Exactly...it's a work in progress. Don't get impatient. You're on the right track.

thanks man... apopka? isnt that in the orlando area? i am new to orlando area (student).. by chance you know of any jazz jams around orlando? i just wanna go and listen, i only know of the one out here on wednesday nights next to ucf(natura cafe)

Thanks man, one thing that fudges me up is like saying the number in my head + tapping foot at same time... I mean if i can tap my foot i WILL be on time..of course not if i'm sight reading(which is my goal). so i find my self counting and not tapping my foot when practicing my reading rhythm notation, and i always remember my first bass teacher (who i respect alot, and would have kept studying with if i hadnt moved) used to preach never let your foot stop moving! lol its a work in progress. can't wait till it's second nature and i'm walking along to the standards @ the jazz jams...:bassist:We are usually counting to figure out the rhythm of a part. Once we get it down we count to keep time. Once we establish the time / groove we can usually stop counting and go with the flow.

It’s rare that we read a part sight unseen for the first time without being able to prepare. A walking bass line of quarter notes shouldn’t give most of us any trouble. It’s the odd syncopations and tricky intervals that can trip even the best of us.

Always try to read through the part looking for potentially difficult passages. Take a few minutes to look over these sections and play them slowly. Familiarize yourself with the patterns within and structure of the tune. Relax, and play. If anything doesn’t work out, ask for help. Very often some other member of the rhythm section, the band leader or the composer, will go over a tough passage with you; and we all know it’s easier to reproduce a part we’ve heard than to hear an unfamiliar part in your head.

You’ll know when to count and you’ll know when you’re in the pocket.

thanks man... apopka? isnt that in the orlando area? i am new to orlando area (student).. by chance you know of any jazz jams around orlando? i just wanna go and listen, i only know of the one out here on wednesday nights next to ucf(natura cafe)
Nope, I don't get out much to jazz jams. And yeah, Apopka's on the northwest side of Orlando and you're on the east side, probably a good 45 minute drive away. I know there are a few places that have jazz, but they're usually restaurants, and I don't know of any names to give you.

Quoting Bootsy the Great from his highly educational funk formula video :

ONE
hu hu hu hu
hu hu hu hu
ya know!
ONE
than you can change it
huhu huhu hu
ya know!

One, Two, ya know, Four

and thats THE FUNK!!!

"Feeling" the count is really about doing it so often that one does it automatically without having to consciously think about it. This takes time (ie. years) to become proficient at and naturally the easier stuff - like 12 bar blues for example - becomes automatic after only a few years on bass. If one often plays complex time and polyrhythms then that can be played by feel rather than by counting, as well.

Like most any complex skill, it just takes practice, practice practice.

i always feel it, except for parts that cant really be felt..

click the link in my sig and tell me weather or not feeling it works..

When it comes to odd time signatures, I've found that it's nearly impossible for me to count while I'm actually playing (live, recording, etc.), but that's what practicing is for. I'll play through the section enough times while counting to where it feels natural and I don't have to count anymore. I voted for feeling it, but I really do both. Counting is crucial in some situations imo depending on the complexity of the rhythmic structure.

Feeling IS counting.
Instead of thinking verbally 1 - 2 - 3 - 4, your BODY is doing that.
There is no difference between counting the beats and feeling the beat. Feeling is counting. It's just that simple.

If your band is playing James Brown, you better be counting!


Why?

Feeling IS counting.
Instead of thinking verbally 1 - 2 - 3 - 4, your BODY is doing that.
There is no difference between counting the beats and feeling the beat. Feeling is counting. It's just that simple.

I partially agree, unless I'm playing something in 11/8 at about 208 bpm for the first time. Then counting becomes somewhat of an independent process until I'm able to feel it.

Thanks man, one thing that fudges me up is like saying the number in my head + tapping foot at same time... I mean if i can tap my foot i WILL be on time..of course not if i'm sight reading(which is my goal). so i find my self counting and not tapping my foot when practicing my reading rhythm notation, and i always remember my first bass teacher (who i respect alot, and would have kept studying with if i hadnt moved) used to preach never let your foot stop moving! lol its a work in progress. can't wait till it's second nature and i'm walking along to the standards @ the jazz jams...:bassist:

You could try what Gary Willis does... don't tap your foot, keep your toes planted and move the back part of your foot up and down. It'll give your brain a solid, non verbal count. Pretty hard to play out of time against it. He also breaks the count into smaller increments than quarter notes. Pretty hard to play out of time against it.

Why is there no "both" option? Feeling the beat is just advanced counting, so it's essentially the same thing.

I can count, but I'd rather feel. If there is nothing to feel, then you might as well give it up

I partially agree, unless you're playing something in 11/8 at about 208 bpm for the first time. Then counting becomes somewhat of an independent process until I'm able to feel it.

It even depends upon HOW you split the 11/8 (from 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 to 5+3+3 and so on). Add the sense of rubato in the equation and feeling becomes even more important when it comes to internalize music.

It even depends upon HOW you split the 11/8 (from 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 to 5+3+3 and so on). Add the sense of rubato in the equation and feeling becomes even more important when it comes to internalize music.

True, there are many factors to the equation. For the first time through a piece in odd time, I usually have to count to some degree. Then the way the count is split (4+4+3 for the song we worked on last night) can be emphasized by the drummer's pulse, naturally facilitating internalization. Feeling the count is my goal for any song.

this is a useless poll without the a choice reflecting obvious answer: they both matter

i cant count worth ***t. it hasn't really hindered me thus far. i have real good feel and can play in or out of pocket and can improvise and describe my rhythms and communicate them. It would take a real long time for me to figure out how to write them out, and that is something i need to work on. It would help my reading and it is something I need to work on. I also sometimes can't even count while I am playing, and in general, I don't, unless I am practicing doing so.
Both learning to write and read rhythm and learning to count better while i play would greatly supplement my more viceral intuitions and feel with the more brainy side of music.

As with everything in music, its a balance.
A quality instrument will improve your sound, but more so, you're fingers will.
EQing a terribly mic'd recording will help it a lot but it will never sound great.
Scooping the mids will help your tone (given that you want THAT tone), but not too much buddy, you'll never cut through it.

PS i didn't vote

PPS i can also handle odd meters, and i do count while i play these. I feel like when I count anything, its just like im singing, and i cant play the same type of stuff (ie not as creative). Real counting means counting and subdividing and knowing where within the count your beats fall and being able to verbalize it while you are playing this stuff.

where's the "they're the same thing" button?
when you can count well, its called feeling it.

I agree. "vs." doesn't apply. It brings "inhale vs. exhale" to mind when talking about breathing. Sure, some will say they only do one or the other but really...
:cool:

Bill Clinton says he didn't inhale. :p

"but really..."

I count when... it counts, I guess. If theres a lot of space between notes I'll count just so I know where I am, like in songs like Black Magic Woman's intro, I'll count ONE two three four AND ONE...etc.

Other than that I'm not actively counting, but I usually keep track of where I am based on what the drums are playing