I know basic chord thery,basic scale theory,intervals,some rythm, how to read music and stuff like that. What now?

apply it into your playing?

I'm not good at that

that's why you gotta practice it. ;)

Amen.

I'm a beginner too. I've been absorbing theory at a fast pace, but there is a HUGE difference between having theory in your head, and having it flow through your fingers on the fly. The middle of a measure is no time to be thinking "Okay, that was Gbmaj, now what is the IV chord, and where do I find it on the fretboard."

Finger-smarts is the Holy Grail of muscianship.

Playing bass lines over chord structures?

How bout... now forget all of that close your eyes and start playing with your ears and soul?

I have no soul

then go play the flute. :P

just practice applying your theory to the instrument, once you can do that, forget all about the theory and play what you feel.

I'm sure Jean-Pierre Rampal will appreciate that statement^^^

You're never going to forget it, you know, even if you try. The most you're going to do is get to the point where you know theory so well it's going to be ingrained in your playing. This is generally what you're trying to achieve.

Anyway, start applying it before you even think of learning something else. There's no point in learning something if you're not going to use what you learned.

Yeah start using it... the best way to do this is to analyze some other player's lines to see how they're using them... learn their lines... then you know a few tricks for your own

I know basic chord thery,basic scale theory,intervals,some rythm, how to read music and stuff like that. What now?

Tonality
Melody
Melodic and Harmonic Intervals
Melody & Intervals
Inversion
Transposition
Circle of 5ths
Melodic Organization
Phrase and Form
Composing a Melody
Harmony & Chords
Neighbor Tones, Passing Tones, & Non Chord Tones
Enharmonic Spelling
Dictation

I could go on for a while, but I think you get the idea.

Also, you misspelled rhythm. If you can't spell it then how are you actually going to be able to have it? :hiding:;)

I have no soul

Am I the only one noticing that every thing we say is shot down with a redundant response.

Thus why Im not giving him any help.

Oh, is that why?:rollno:
Look, ALBINO JOE YOUNG, it's not that "learning theory" is some magic pill that is going to open up some door that stands between you and playing with some kind of meaning. You CAN play with meaning and intent with the vocabulary you have now. It just takes some work.

There are three legs to the tripod here:
1. TECHNIQUE - which isn't 'raking" or " spider" or any of that other crap. All "technique" means is physical approach. You want to have as relaxed and tension free a physical approach to the instrument as possible; you want to be able to play without the instrument becoming an impediment, either by the plucking hand being too tense, uncoordinated or bound by habit and by the fingering hand being relaxed, being able to start any idea on any finger.
2. UNDERSTANDING - which is what people mostly mean by "theory". How chords function, how resolutions work, how you can exchange things between keys etc.
3. HEARING - here's a big one, ear training. Being able to hear with clarity. Intervals, chords, tensions.

There is no one part of this tripod that can be left out of ANY approach to becoming a musician. It's ALL important - it doens't matter how well you UNDERSTAND something, if you can't hear it. It doesn't matter how well you HEAR something, if you don't have the physical wherewithal to use your instrument to get it out in the air where everyone else can hear it in real time. It doesn't matter if you have the TECHNIQUE to play anything, if you can't hear and can't understand what it is you are hearing.

So I don't think it's so much a matter of "where to go next" with theory, I think it's a matter of coordinating what you know with what you can hear with what you can play.

and you know who's great at coordinating stuff like that?

Good teachers, that's who.

definitely work on applying it to your playing and once you get that down ( like REALLY down) move on to Modes

Once again, Ed posts the perfect post.

Oh, is that why?:rollno:
Look, ALBINO JOE YOUNG, it's not that "learning theory" is some magic pill that is going to open up some door that stands between you and playing with some kind of meaning. You CAN play with meaning and intent with the vocabulary you have now. It just takes some work.

There are three legs to the tripod here:
1. TECHNIQUE - which isn't 'raking" or " spider" or any of that other crap. All "technique" means is physical approach. You want to have as relaxed and tension free a physical approach to the instrument as possible; you want to be able to play without the instrument becoming an impediment, either by the plucking hand being too tense, uncoordinated or bound by habit and by the fingering hand being relaxed, being able to start any idea on any finger.
2. UNDERSTANDING - which is what people mostly mean by "theory". How chords function, how resolutions work, how you can exchange things between keys etc.
3. HEARING - here's a big one, ear training. Being able to hear with clarity. Intervals, chords, tensions.

There is no one part of this tripod that can be left out of ANY approach to becoming a musician. It's ALL important - it doens't matter how well you UNDERSTAND something, if you can't hear it. It doesn't matter how well you HEAR something, if you don't have the physical wherewithal to use your instrument to get it out in the air where everyone else can hear it in real time. It doesn't matter if you have the TECHNIQUE to play anything, if you can't hear and can't understand what it is you are hearing.

So I don't think it's so much a matter of "where to go next" with theory, I think it's a matter of coordinating what you know with what you can hear with what you can play.

and you know who's great at coordinating stuff like that?

Good teachers, that's who.

/thread.

As much as I loved Ed's post, "Albino Joe Young" is what gets him the Blue Ribbon.

As much as I loved Ed's post, "Albino Joe Young" is what gets him the Blue Ribbon.


This.

So once again we're in a practice versus theory discussion. To not be misunderstood: I have a degree in music theory.
Nonetheless IMHO playing should be learned from practice to theory, not the other way around. There really is no point in learning scales and chords in all twelve keys if you can't play a by ear bass part to Old MacDonald Has A Farm.

We're not unless you choose to ignore any posts that offer something other than your black and white supposition. It ain't like that....

We're not unless you choose to ignore any posts that offer something other than your black and white supposition. It ain't like that....

Sorry to have given that impression. I didn't mean to create any dichotomy. Just said that to point out the outside corners. Luckily no one is that radical. But the tons of (well meant!) advice given by the theory professors in this thread do not seem very inviting to me.

Theoretical knowledge will only be useful if it can be integrated (and be kept integrated) into practical play. Otherwise it will wither away in no time.
And, to reverse the argument: Knowlegde is learned best when sought to deal with practical questions.

If we give advice to young players on their next step, we should always focus on practical stages of development. Theory is 'only'' there to support that.

I always though that it could be automatically assumed that when someone suggests that you learn theory, they also want you to integrate it into your own playing. I doubt that anyone here would actually want you to learn something and never actually use it, just for the sake of knowing it.

Sorry to have given that impression. I didn't mean to create any dichotomy. Just said that to point out the outside corners. Luckily no one is that radical. But the tons of (well meant!) advice given by the theory professors in this thread do not seem very inviting to me.

Theoretical knowledge will only be useful if it can be integrated (and be kept integrated) into practical play. Otherwise it will wither away in no time.
And, to reverse the argument: Knowlegde is learned best when sought to deal with practical questions.

If we give advice to young players on their next step, we should always focus on practical stages of development. Theory is 'only'' there to support that.

Sparky, yer gonna have to pull a quote on that. The ONLY person on this thread that said anything about having a "music theory degree" is you. I don't have one, PACKSTER has, what, a performance degree from the military school of music in Norfolk? Again, you only seem to be reading what you want to read and only then if it supports your "corners"...

Sorry to have given that impression. I didn't mean to create any dichotomy. Just said that to point out the outside corners. Luckily no one is that radical. But the tons of (well meant!) advice given by the theory professors in this thread do not seem very inviting to me.

Theoretical knowledge will only be useful if it can be integrated (and be kept integrated) into practical play. Otherwise it will wither away in no time.
And, to reverse the argument: Knowlegde is learned best when sought to deal with practical questions.

If we give advice to young players on their next step, we should always focus on practical stages of development. Theory is 'only'' there to support that.
If we give advice to young players on their next step, we should always focus on practical stages of development.

You got my attention Chris K. I'm not in the "young players" category, I'm in my mid fifty's
with less than a year of playing bass. I have a decent ear for music and my timing is ok.
I work on these two areas in my daily practice along with learning some basic theory. I
just recently had the opportunity to practice with a drummer and a keyboard player who
also can bass. So with that said, I'm interested in what you would suggest to me to "focus on practical stages of development". I practice about one and half hrs. a day, six
day's a week. And I hope others who read my post will offer some positive advice. In the past, I have learn alot from talkbass/general instruction threads.

Thank you Omega for your positive feedback, and I'm glad to be of service. It's great that you took up the challenge to learn to play bass at your age. I would suggest further development of your already 'decent ear', just to find out how far it will go.

It also depends on your ambitions. Many bass players are perfectly happy to play bass to a couple of tunes they know, with only a few chords. They just learn the bass part by heart, maybe invent some small variations. Others learn to play from sheet music, some of them up to a stage where they can sight read most of the music they get to play. Neither categrory will need much theoretical knowlegde. A third category are those who learn to play from ever more complex chord sheets. Those are the ones that will have to study theory, and will also need lots of musical ear. So it's crucial to develop that ear if you have serious ambitions.

Play by ear. Songs you know, simple songs with moderate movement, like children's songs, gospel, the Tenessee Waltz if you like. Start by playing the MELODY. Do not really study that melody, just play. If it's too hard, play something even more simple, but always play by ear, not from your memory. So pick new songs all the time. To add difficulty, play them in different keys on the lower frets, to force you to incorporate open strings. This way you maybe won't learn the NAMES of the notes (see higher up in this thread) but you will get to know how fret x on string y SOUNDS, and you will develop a feeling for playing intervals.

Next step: somebody else plays the melody (or use a recording) and you try to play a very basic bass part of root notes to it. After that: fifths, thirds, arpeggio's, scale fragments to go from one root note to another. But all of it by ear and spontaneously.

Finally: write your own chords sheet. Compare it to the original or to other versions. Are they better? Maybe, maybe not. If they are (or if yours is) FIND OUT WHY. And here THEORY comes in. You found C - F - G7 - C, but the original goes C - F - Dm7 - G+7 - C. Check out structure and use of m7 and +7 chords, try out the new opporunities they will give you to play that song.

Etc. etc.

Have fun!

Thanks Chris K for your reply and suggestions. I'm currently learning new songs playing
by ear and then play the new song in different keys starting in the lower register of the
fretboard. You made a very interesting point about not learning the names of the notes
on the fretboard in order to internalize 'how fret x on string y SOUNDS', and 'how it will
help me develop a feeling for playing intervals'.

As mention before, I just started practicing with a drummer and a keyboard/bass player
once a week. I can ask the keyboard player to play a simple melody and I try to play a
very basic bass part of root notes to it. Thanks again Chris for your suggestions.

A question Chris, are there any available soundfiles, CDs, websites etc. where we can hear what you sound like?

To convince you of what, my friend?

So once again we're in a practice versus theory discussion. To not be misunderstood: I have a degree in music theory.
Nonetheless IMHO playing should be learned from practice to theory, not the other way around. There really is no point in learning scales and chords in all twelve keys if you can't play a by ear bass part to Old MacDonald Has A Farm.
I couldn't figure out how to play Old McDonald by ear until I knew what and where the notes were. And the more I learned, the better I got at it. So it can work pretty good the other way as well.

Chris, I'd love to hear your playing, too! I'd like to hear where this style of learning has led you. Maybe I should re-think my course of study - hearing what you've done could certainly help me reevaluate my approach.

"Convince" me of nothing, just hear what you sound like. It's interesting, though, that you chose to answer with anything other than "Go here" (http://www.jonraney.com/3.html)...

I think that is excellent advice, Chris.

It also sustains an interest in the instrument, that could quite easily be put down, because of theoretical drowning.

I was more than competent on bass, with little theoretical understanding (I knew all my notes, that was about it), but had a damn good feel for time, and a good ear. I practised so much, that I could play any song by listening to it, within minutes (to a high standard). I absorbed all techniques, and mixed them up. I gigged for over ten years, sometimes every day of the week.

Now I'm a little older, I've taken a break from playing live, and really got my head into theory. And yes, it has made me a better player. But I personally feel that my road was the right road to take, on hindsight. I had no problem learning my theory, because barriers like technique being frustrating, lack of finger strength and other factors weren't there to make me lose interest.

This was right for me, but it may not be right for other people. This is why I advise my students to find a nice mix within both approaches.

I couldn't figure out how to play Old McDonald by ear until I knew what and where the notes were. And the more I learned, the better I got at it. So it can work pretty good the other way as well.

You did it your way, that´s what counts, Jim. It's a good thing we not only learn how to play, but also to evaluate our leranng processes. I realize now that my approach focuses strongly on instant creativity and adaption to what happens on stage, right there and then.

It has been going that way since my dad and my uncles took me out on our first gig together (me playing the clarinet:D). In the city orchestra we played from sheet music , but everywhere else we used head arrangements, jazz and party music. We hardly ever rehearsed, took along whoever was free. I neither wanted to end up playing root notes on a clarinet, nor get in the way of my fathers melody lines (he played the trumpet). I had to find my own way of making myself heard.

So I just come from somewhere else.

So, that's "No", then?

It also sustains an interest in the instrument, that could quite easily be put down, because of theoretical drowning.


Wish I had started out by putting it this way, because it would have made clear what I meant to say right away.

I checked out your sparkling website and very comprehensive videos. Think I'll have to borrow a fretted 4-string with a black fingerboard to express some of my views in the form of video lessons too.

So once again we're in a practice versus theory discussion. To not be misunderstood: I have a degree in music theory.
Nonetheless IMHO playing should be learned from practice to theory, not the other way around. There really is no point in learning scales and chords in all twelve keys if you can't play a by ear bass part to Old MacDonald Has A Farm.

Nothing I've read in this thread states otherwise. In fact, Ed's first post about the "tripod" sums it up beautifully. Nobody is saying "theory OR practice", at least not anyone who actually plays music. Sounds like you're trying to disagree with comments that support your POV.

Jeff Berlin and Steve Bailey had a debate a while back, including Jeff's statement that was something like "A column on playing the fretless bass is like a manual on how to steer your car". But nobody ever said that one could learn to play fretless bass solely from reading a column or a text. He made the unrealistic assumption that someone looking to learn to play fretless bass would pick up a book, read it, then consider themselves ready to play... :eyebrow:

It's ludicrous to force a debate on practice over theory, or even to state that it's better to learn practice before theory or theory before practice.

Like many others here, and very much like what Ed wrote, whatever skills I have on the bass came from years of study and practice, not in sequence but in parallel, back and forth, and continues to do so as I learn more. I would no sooner put down the bass to read theory than I would halt my theoretical learning to focus solely on my ear training.

A sailor who only reads maps will never get anywhere, but a sailor who only sails will get lost, fast.

Originally Posted by Jim Nazium (in the thread Do away with dogmatism)

If I understand Chris K's original point, it is that:

(a) some people are very concerned about applying (western European) music theory to their playing, to the point of saying that it's wrong to play a certain note over a certain chord, and
(b) some people think that any type of theoretical analysis limits or constrains their playing, so they recommend not learning any theory at all.

I think Chris' point was that both of these positions are limiting, and we'll be better players if we open our minds both to understanding theory and being free to play 'outside' of it.

Music theory is just a set of names for sounds, and it makes it much easier to talk about the sounds if we have names for them. Imagine trying to talk to your bandmates if no one knew the names of any scales, chords, or intervals. But knowing those names doesn't mean we have to be bound by any rules. You have a piece of wood with four strings on it (or five, or six ...). You can do anything you want with it. If it sounds good, it is good.

(End of quote)

No further comment needed.

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww88/michaelcase/ThreeStoogesPhotograph.jpg

My belief is that you can apply theory without understanding it. Just as you can understand theory without the ability to apply it. There are a lot of talented and very good bass players out there that don't understand theory or even really give 2 ***** about it. They are still slaves to it as the rest of us are.
When you understand the application of your ability to play (or talent) and practice and refine that true art, AND you learn AND apply theory and integrate it with your talent or skill set on the fingerboard, you have just passed GO on the way to mastering your instrument. True masters spin a lot of plates at once, making them all appear effortless. Thats why you can listen to an amazing artist (or master if you will) play something that makes you go wow, and then listen to them explaining technically what they did, and it flows from them with the same seemingly natural effort as their playing. Owning your instrument, and owning the mastery of it are 2 totally different things. The best players strive for mastery every day, it is a journey, and not a destination. IMHO.

Ok, but who's wrong?

We need to know who's wrong here!

Get online and buy Scott Hendersons DVD on theory and phrasing, it is brillant. I had both on VHS and repurchased them on DVD - yes they are that good. I have a degree from Berklee and next to taking lessons with a really heavy jazz guy/gal these DVDs are it. Then get out the Real Book and record some walking bass lines and solo over them. I have some Abersold cd's which are cool as well, but you cant mess with tempo and feel let a lone change the key. Play with other people every chance you get and transcribe, transcribe, transcribe....... Best of Luck.

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua (in the thread where should I go in theory next?)

So, that's "No", then?

End of quote.

No further comment needed.

Sorry to derail and all, but seeing that your user name is Jojabeau and seeing that I, at one time, was a Jojaboy (Augusta GA in actual fack), and seeing that you taught at Berklee and seeing that I, at one time, went to Berklee, I must axe - who all are you?

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww88/michaelcase/ThreeStoogesPhotograph.jpg

That guy in te middle doesn't look like me at all.

But I say Larry is a pretty good likeness.
http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww88/michaelcase/ThreeStoogesPhotographedit.jpg

I knew it.

Moe is their leader.

Ed,

I enjoyed that Jon Raney link. Thanks for posting. :D

Joe

You're welcome. I'm hoping that some of the last studio stuff we did with Eliot is going to be available soon, that session was almost a year ago.

Moe is their leader.

But not for me (as played by Chet Baker, of course)

Ok, but who's wrong?

We need to know who's wrong here!

All of us, for hijacking the OP's thread and turning it into this esoteric discussion.

More or less. But arguing is fun!

And I kept thinking it was all my fault.