I've been playing bass for a little over a year and I hear bassists mention things like the root, 5th and the 7th. how do you know which note coincides with which number or does it change with the scale?

The root, 5th, and 7th correspond to notes in a scale.

Simply speaking - there are 8 notes in a scale. The "1" and the "8" are the same, but are an octave apart. This is what you call the "root". For example the "D" in a D major scale.

The 5th & 7th, are just that - the 5th & 7th notes of the scale...

Now, depending on the type of scale you're playing, things are going to start moving around between the 1 & the 8. This is directly related to the "flavor" of the scale i.e. major, minor, maj7, min7, diminished, etc.

This is the part where I suggest you pick up a basic music theory or bass instruction book - or better yet take some lessons!

Hope this helps...

^ that

If you have been playing for a year and are unsure about this, can I first say that this information is basic to bass playing so PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take some lessons.

In the mean time, check out this page, it should help.

http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/

Thanks, you guys clarified a lot for me. I kind of figured out that they were notes in a scale but just needed some verification. What I still can't figure out is a cmaj7. I know what a cmaj is but I don't know what the added 7 does to it.

A Cmaj7 puts a 1/2 step between notes 7 & 8. This scale is also often times just referred to as a C major scale.

A C7 or "dominant 7th" places a whole step between 7 & 8.

^This.

The Cmaj7 just has a flatted 7th, creating the half step.

its based on a 7 note scale such as the major scale each note in the scale is a degree or think of it as simply a number. Say first note you play is "Do" which is #1 or the first degree and so on up to the octave which is #8.

if you play pentatonic scale (5 notes) you still refer to the numbering of the 7 note scale it is derived from. so in the pentatonic scale the 6 and 2 are removed from the 7 note scale so we end up with 5 notes. so you go from the root (#1 ....first note) > #3 > #4 > #5 > #7 to #8(the octave).

^This.

The Cmaj7 just has a flatted 7th, creating the half step.

Try again. ;)

Try again. ;)


he must mean Cmin7

Notes on the Major Scale:

1 - I - root/tonic - do - (key of ) C
2 - II - supertonic - re - D
3 - III - mediant - mi - E
4 - IV - subdominant - fa - F
5 - V - dominant - sol - G
6 - VI - submediant - la - A
7 - VII - leading note - ti - B
8 - VII - octave/tonic - do - C (cycle goes on again)

Now chord notes can be found in the major scale, so they are given their numerical equivalents most of the time. For example, a major chord is composed of I, III and V. A minor chord is composed of I, iii (flatted third) and V. And so on.

he must mean Cmin7

What he described is a C7, which has the flatted VII. If you take the VII as is, it's a Cmaj7. I think.

What he described is a C7, which has the flatted VII. If you take the VII as is, it's a Cmaj7. I think.
oh yeah could be C7 as well.

7 as is...perfect 7 right?

C7 is a dominant 7th which has a flattened 7th note, making it a whole step/tone away from the octave.

Cmaj7 is a Major 7th which has a 7th note a semi-tone away from the octave.

O. M. G. :eek: I'm shocked by some of the "advice" given here. :D

OP - this page is worth a good read. Don't worry too much about learning it all off by heart, just get an overview of how things work.

http://library.thinkquest.org/15413/theory/intervals.htm

oh yeah could be C7 as well.

7 as is...perfect 7 right?

...There is no such thing as a perfect 7.

The only perfect basic intervals are unison, 4th, 5th, and octave.

Anytime you have the modifier 'maj', it signifies the Major scale with the leading tone 7th. In 'C', this would be B natural.

No 'maj', it is flattened 7th. In 'C', 'Bb'

'min' would be flattened 3rd, 6th, and 7th compared to the Major scale. C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

O. M. G. :eek: I'm shocked by some of the "advice" given here. :D



I hope you're not including me in that!! :p

Thanks, you guys clarified a lot for me. I kind of figured out that they were notes in a scale but just needed some verification. What I still can't figure out is a cmaj7. I know what a cmaj is but I don't know what the added 7 does to it.

As a bass player and in the most elementary sense, the part of a Cmaj7 chord that you should be concerned with the most (if you are unsure) is simply the root - or C and the fact that it's a major chord (as opposed to minor).

Depending on the style of music you're playing, that C may actually be 'required' and you'd get the evil eye from the other players if you chose to play any other pitch.

That said and if all conditions are right - you could play the root (C) where you see that chord, then use the seventh as a part of your 'walk' or whatever phrase you play (depending on style).

If the Cmaj7 appears as the only chord in a 4/4 bar, then you could introduce the bar with the root (C) and outline a Cmaj7 chord (E G B) as the rest of what you play in that bar.

Cmaj7
| C E G B |

The Cmaj7 (as a chord) will be played by other players - piano, guitar, the horn section and so on - so that 7th will be present in the harmony.

I stress "could" because there are a thousand other things you could do that would work and it's all about how that chord is used in the progression/phrase as a whole.

WHERE the 7th (or any other note) appears in your line should be tied to what chords lead you there and where you're heading right after.

I hope you're not including me in that!! :p
No, don't worry - you're okay. :D

Take some lessons!!! Preferably from someone with a music degree.

In the meantime learn your intervals and how the chords are written out and you'll be ok.

The root, 5th, and 7th correspond to notes in a scale.

Simply speaking - there are 8 notes in a scale. The "1" and the "8" are the same, but are an octave apart. This is what you call the "root". For example the "D" in a D major scale.

The 5th & 7th, are just that - the 5th & 7th notes of the scale...

Now, depending on the type of scale you're playing, things are going to start moving around between the 1 & the 8. This is directly related to the "flavor" of the scale i.e. major, minor, maj7, min7, diminished, etc.

This is the part where I suggest you pick up a basic music theory or bass instruction book - or better yet take some lessons!

Hope this helps...

+100 ... lessons are key. I struggled with trying to understand theory for over a year before taking lessons, shouldn't have waited.

Oh boy...

I'm pretty sure that when someone mentions 5th or 7th, they're probably talking more about CHORDS than scales. If they were talking abut a scale, they'd probably say "5th degree/7th degree of scale X" or something like that.

Thanks, you guys clarified a lot for me. I kind of figured out that they were notes in a scale but just needed some verification. What I still can't figure out is a cmaj7. I know what a cmaj is but I don't know what the added 7 does to it.

A 7th chord is mainly defined by four notes: the root, the 3rd, the 5th, and the 7th. In Cmaj7, you already know your root, which is C. You can figure out the 3rd, 5th, and 7th of the chord by looking at the 3rd, 5th, and 7th scale degrees of the C major scale (hence why I say the terms "5th" and "7th" are better used for chords).

Here's how the C major scale looks written out, along with the number/scale degree that corresponds to each note:

C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

I'll put the important notes and scale degrees in parenthesis:

(C) D (E) F (G) A (B)
(1) 2 (3) 4 (5) 6 (7)

By looking at the notes and the corresponding scale degrees, you can figure out what notes make the chord. C major 7 can be made from the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th scale degrees of the major scale, so from the comparison above you can figure out what C Major 7 is:

C E G B = C Major 7
1 3 5 7

Now, another underlying point to understand about this is intervals. If you don't understand that, of if you need any clarification on the stuff I just posted, I (or someone else that is knowledgeable about this) can explain it for you.

this is a funny thread. Lot of wacky stuff.

beyondat, i would recommend you study theory with a good teacher or at least get a good book. As a bass player, you should know what the chord relationships mean, / key centers.

Good luck and have fun.

Rudreax, what does it mean when the sheet music has letter in front of the 7 ?, ex. D7.












Rudreax, could you explain this music symbol... D7 ? Thanks !!

A D7 is a Dominant 7

What xqusemuah said.

Just for the sake of writing it out...

D F# A C = D Dominant 7
1 3 5 b7

thanks guys.... its clear to me now !!

Just to clarify a little, using a root note of C...

Most chords containing a seventh usually contain the root note, the third note of the scale, the fifth note of the scale and the seventh note of the scale.

In the C major scale, these notes are C, E, G, B.
In the C natural minor scale, they are C, Eb, G and Bb.

Notice that it's the third and seventh notes that differ between the two.

Now, the rules you use when working out what notes are in a chord say that third notes are major by default. In other words, they're assumed to be major unless minor is specified. For sevenths, it's the other way around - they're minor by default.

So, look at this chord symbol: C7. We know it contains the root, third, fifth and seventh. We know that the root is C and the fifth is G (see above). We also know the third is major as this is the default, so the note is E. The seventh is minor by default, so the note is Bb. Cross-check this with the info above about the notes in major and natural minor scales and you'll get it.

Now, look at this chord symbol: Cmin7 (often written Cm7 - lower case "m"). We know the "min" bit must refer to the third, as the seventh is minor by default and so doesn't need stating as such. Our notes are therefore the root C, MINOR 3rd Eb, fifth G and minor seventh Bb. Cross-check with the above info again!

For Cmaj7 (or CM7 - note the capital "M"), the major must indicate a major 7th as the third is major by default. So, our root, major third, fifth and MAJOR seventh are C, E, G, B. Cross-check again!

To summarise for the key of C:

C7 = root, major 3rd, fifth, minor 7th = C, E, G, Bb
Cm7 = root, minor 3rd, fifth, minor 7th = C, Eb, G, Bb
CM7 = root, major 3rd, fifth, major 7th = C, E, G, B

(There's also the possibility of combining a minor 3rd with a major 7th, but such chords are pretty rare and you can forget about them for now.)

For other keys, you need to know the major and natural minor scales to work out the notes in these chords. For example, with D as the root:

Major scale - D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D
Natural minor scale - D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C, D

I've put the root, third, fifth and seventh in bold for each scale. Notice again that the root and the fifth are the same in both scales, but the thirds and the sevenths differ.

Chords would be "spelled" as follows (check these notes in the above scales):

D7 = root, major 3rd, fifth, minor 7th = D, F#, A, C
Dm7 = root, minor 3rd, fifth, minor 7th = D, F, A, C
DM7 = root, major 3rd, fifth, major 7th = D, F#, A, C#

Note that D here is the root note and used like this has nothing at all to do with the term "dominant", which is way out of scope for this discussion.

All this may seem complicated, but after working with chords for a while it just becomes second nature. Try working out the notes in X7, Xm7 and XM7 chords. when X is any note picked at random, other than C or D that are done here for you!

I hope that helps. :)

__________________________________________________ ________________

Could I politely ask that people read this post...

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=520150

... and refrain from posting "advice" unless they really know the topic they're posting on well, as some of the misinformation that gets bandied around in this forum must be really confusing for those who wish to find out about stuff. Thanks.

bassybill - if that DOESN'T help, then there is no help!

Break it down, Bill!

bassybill - if that DOESN'T help, then there is no help!

Break it down, Bill!
:bassist:

;)

Hopefully this will settle all this.

First I lol'd at this thread, then it got painful.

It's really pretty simple.

Learn basic harmonly theory. I suggest this book- it's the best easy clear theory book I've found. He doesn't assume you know much about music, doesn't assume you play keyboards, doesn't require you to read (music) very much, and doesn't assume that all music is based on Western Classical music and theory. Very clear explanations of everything laid out in a great manner for the person who wants to teach themselves. I wish I'd had this resource when I was teaching bass decades ago.

Edley's Music Theory for Practical People.

http://www.edly.com/mtfpp.html

jte

Ok, I'm a beginner bass player and I just have a quick sort of related question. I don't understand why the lower fifth is right above the root note while the higher fifth is a string down and 2 frets across, it doesn't make sense to me.

Ok, I'm a beginner bass player and I just have a quick sort of related question. I don't understand why the lower fifth is right above the root note while the higher fifth is a string down and 2 frets across, it doesn't make sense to me.

Because you're confusing the 5th as an interval (meaning an absolute measure of distance) with the 5th as a degree of a particular scale. Here's a two-octave C scale, with the roots boldface and the 5th degrees of the scale italic. Imagine that the pitches are going steadily higher as you read from right to left.

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C

When you talk in terms of degrees of the scale, G, any G, is always going to be the 5th degree of that scale. But when you talk about specific distances between specific pitches--that is, intervals--not every G is the same distance from every C. Look at the scale above. See how every G is closer to the C to its right (which is higher in pitch) than to the C to its left (which is lower in pitch)? This is exactly what you're asking about.

Or look at it this way. Imagine a circle 12 meters in diameter. Pick a starting point; that's your root, or 1st scale degree, let's call it C. Now go 7 meters around the circumference; that's your 5th degree, which for present purposes we can call G. If you go one way around the circle, the G is 7 m away from the C; if you go the other way, the G is 5 m away.

Does that help?

Because you're confusing the 5th as an interval (meaning an absolute measure of distance) with the 5th as a degree of a particular scale. Here's a two-octave C scale, with the roots boldface and the 5th degrees of the scale italic. Imagine that the pitches are going steadily higher as you read from right to left.

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C

When you talk in terms of degrees of the scale, G, any G, is always going to be the 5th degree of that scale. But when you talk about specific distances between specific pitches--that is, intervals--not every G is the same distance from every C. Look at the scale above. See how every G is closer to the C to its right (which is higher in pitch) than to the C to its left (which is lower in pitch)? This is exactly what you're asking about.

Or look at it this way. Imagine a circle 12 meters in diameter. Pick a starting point; that's your root, or 1st scale degree, let's call it C. Now go 7 meters around the circumference; that's your 5th degree, which for present purposes we can call G. If you go one way around the circle, the G is 7 m away from the C; if you go the other way, the G is 5 m away.

Does that help?

Yeah that's exactly what was confusing me, I thought '5th' was a measure of "tonal distance" if you know what I mean.
Thanks :bassist:

Yeah that's exactly what was confusing me, I thought '5th' was a measure of "tonal distance" if you know what I mean.
Thanks :bassist:

Well, it IS a measure of tonal distance. Sometimes. And sometimes it's something else. Both meanings (that is, interval and scale degree) are correct, you just have to be clear on which one you're referring to at which time.

No offense, bu it's been a long time sice I read so much nonsense on theory (not your post Richard, I mean this thread as a whole). Please take lessons, guys. Study classical harmony. Very important, especially for bass players.

No offense, bu it's been a long time sice I read so much nonsense on theory (not your post Richard, I mean this thread as a whole). Please take lessons, guys. Study classical harmony. Very important, especially for bass players.
I sincerely hope my posts were another exception to that. :D

C7 is a dominant 7th which has a flattened 7th note, making it a whole step/tone away from the octave.

Cmaj7 is a Major 7th which has a 7th note a semi-tone away from the octave.

Duh.. My post was a big time brain fart.. but seeing I was sucked into lessons with a teacher who didnt even own a bass guitar for 3 years, some of my theory gets mixed up at times.. the little theory I have, that is. :atoz:

Sorry for the ignorant post.

I don't think anyone should be sorry for an 'ignorant' post. Those are the ones that, if corrected properly, can be the most informative and educational.

It's also important for people not to give or take things so personally. If people say things that are in error, offer a correction not an admonition and everyone benefits. Simply pointing out how 'ignorant' a thread is without offering anything useful is, well, useless.

--tz

I don't think anyone should be sorry for an 'ignorant' post. Those are the ones that, if corrected properly, can be the most informative and educational.

It's also important for people not to give or take things so personally. If people say things that are in error, offer a correction not an admonition and everyone benefits. Simply pointing out how 'ignorant' a thread is without offering anything useful is, well, useless.

--tz
Yup. Good points.