I'm going with gut. And don't bother talking me off of the ledge, I'm too far gone!

But I do need experienced help with the A and E choice.

After a ton of TB research, and thought about recent and past string experiences, I have already narrowed my choices: Innovation and Velvet.

On the Innovation side, I'm looking at either Super Silvers, Super Slaps or Golden Slaps. On the Velvet side, I'm looking at either the Garbo or Garbo lights.

The back story: I've been using Evah Pirazzi medium tension strings for the past several months. The acoustic sound is fabulous and the amplified sound is reasonable. However I dislike the tension. With the new Weich set only being 10% less tension than the medium set, it looks like I have to say goodbye to Evah Pirazzi. The strings are going on my La Scala ply.

Which of the strings I have mentioned above best match the Gamuts in terms of tone? And which match best in terms of tension?

My assumption is that all of the choices I'm looking at are lower tension than the Evah but if I could be mistaken...

At your PM request, I'll chime in:

Both Innovation and Velvet are good choices to pair with gut, especially if you're not doing any arco. I have more experience with Velvet than Innovation, and I like the Garbo A and the Anima E. Some folks like the Garbo E but I found it rather large and indistinct sounding, I haven't tried the lights. Another string I tried recently which I like are the Super-Sensitive Sensicores. They match well with guts and are also bowable. All of these strings have tension that is compatible with the Gamuts. These things are a matter of taste. Some folks think nothing but roundwound gut E&As will go with plain gut D&Gs, while others have no problem using Spirocores for the bottom. The ones you're considering are somewhere in the middle. If you like lower tension, I say go with Garbo.

Good luck!

Unfortunately, I just don't get enough mileage out of wound guts to justify the cost. Hopefully the Velvet or Innovation strings will be the ticket.

I got about 6 months out of my first wound Gamut E and A (they were on and off the bass 2 or 3 times so that may have hastened their need for rewinding; I also didn't use graphite on the nut and bridge early on which may also have had something to do with it). Had them rewound for $50 each (and got 'em back within a week). They've been going strong ever since. I love the sound of the wound E and A and wouldn't even think of matching my D and G with anything else.

mark

I got about 6 months out of my first wound Gamut E and A

Now that's interesting. I admit, my only experience with wound gut E and A strings is an old set of LaBella. Those didn't last long at all.

I got about 6 months out of my first wound Gamut E and A (they were on and off the bass 2 or 3 times so that may have hastened their need for rewinding; I also didn't use graphite on the nut and bridge early on which may also have had something to do with it). Had them rewound for $50 each (and got 'em back within a week). They've been going strong ever since. I love the sound of the wound E and A and wouldn't even think of matching my D and G with anything else.

mark

Now that's interesting. I admit, my only experience with wound gut E and A strings is an old set of LaBella. Those didn't last long at all.

Trix I've been playing a full set of Gamut Lyon mediums, including the copper wound E & A for about 10 months now. No problems. These are great pizz strings. Arco-challenging, I'd say even harder to bow than Velvet Animas. I'm with Mark -- tonewise a perfect match for the D & G. As to durability, I haven't taken them off and they are in great shape still, just nicely mellowed and settled in. I did widen the bridge and nut grooves when I put them on since they are fatter than Pizzicato Bass strings that were on before. And I guess with round wound a good dose of graphite is a must.

What is a good mix for Gamut G & D? I'm not planning to change strings, but if I put on the Pistoy G D & A that are on the shelf, I've been toying with what other E to use -- if I didn't keep the current Gamut. Evah E or Velvet Anima E would be worth trying. I've wanted to try Dominant E with gut. Eudoxa?

Low tension alternatives would include Animas like Bobby mentioned. Also: many folks say the Dominant Solo E & A tuned to orchestra pitch is a good low tension mix for use with gut G & D. Adrian Cho wrote about that years back. Innovations? I don't have experience with them they are supposed to be low tension and nice bluegrass strings. I did try the Eurosound Ultras briefly, a low tension nylon-wrapped steel core and an acceptable match for gut (but bowing them was more than a challenge, they say you can roughen up the nylon wrapper to make them more responsive, but that did not work for me at least).

But I've gotta go practice! :) Good luck

Trix: Keep the Evah E and A on with the guts at first. I went from all Evahs to gut G and D with Evah E and A, and the E and A really mellowed out tension wise when the guts went on.
Spiros Mittels work too- 90% of the gut sound is in the G and D, and it's handy to have 2 reliable strings to tune to.

Trix,

Thank you for the PM. I have not tried any of the Innovation strings but I'm pretty curios about the Honeys (Anyone got an old used set?). Currently I'm using wound gut E+A and plain D+G. I'm not quite sure yet that this is what I'm really looking for soundwise, but I sure do like playing them! I used Garbo E+A for a long time and I kept the E even longer. They blend very well with guts and there was a fine balance between the strings both sound- and tensionwise on my bass. Very comfortable and very LOUD. At one time I used a Gamut G with regular Garbo E+A+D. I didn't get used to the tension skip between the D and G but maybe Garbo lights will feel better. I would love to try Garbo lights aswell :p

the E and A really mellowed out tension wise when the guts went on

That's something I had not thought of. I may elect to keep the Evah E and A on for a few days to experiment.

But there are other issues that probably can't be rectified...

The Evah is a bit boingy when amplified. And I'm playing amplified quite a bit these days. In addition, after four months of regular playing, the steel winding is coming loose on both the A and the D.

Trix I've been playing a full set of Gamut Lyon mediums, including the copper wound E & A for about 10 months now. No problems.

What's you're playing style, Bonaventura? You're the second person who has responded positively about wound guts (presumably the Gamut variety). I may have to put them back on the list...

... if I put on the Pistoy G D & A that are on the shelf, I've been toying with what other E to use -- if I didn't keep the current Gamut. Evah E or Velvet Anima E would be worth trying...

Since the Pistoy is the lower tension Gamut string, I would think the Evah would be noticeably more tense. Even the new Evah Weich must be significantly more tense than either the Lyon or Pistoy. A few people have reported liking the Anima E quite a lot with the gut G and D.

A few people have reported liking the Anima E quite a lot with the gut G and D.

My experience was that the Anima A is a little bright next to a gut D and a Garbo A makes a better transition. But I didn't like the Garbo E so much, the Anima E was clearer, and it works next to the Garbo. But you may find that either two Animas or Garbos works on your bass. Anima has a little more tension than Garbo, it's the least noticable on the E though.

One set up I used for a while (back when I had a second bass for arco :() was Anima E, Garbo A&D, plain gut G. This worked very well. For me, plain gut Ds are an iffy proposition because they get progessively thuddier as you go up the neck. The Garbo D was probably the best substitute (non-arco) for a plain gut D that I found.

This is a long road that you're going down :), I hope you find something that works for you, it may take some experimenting and $$.

Trix: Keep the Evah E and A on with the guts at first.

+1

Doing this won't cost you a thing. My Cleveland came with Spirocores. When I decided to give gut a try, I installed G and D Gamuts with used Silver Slaps. I assumed the guts would pair better with the Innovations than with Spiros. Tension-wise, they were very close, but I didn't care for that combo. Could have been the strings. Could have been the bass.

I ended up putting the Spiro A and E back on with the Gamuts. You will read mixed reviews about this combo, but I like it, especially as the Spiros age. This will work for me until I have the dough for full guts (or I decide to go back to full Spiros :hmm:).

BTW, I don't have any experience with Garbos.

Good luck,
TPugh

What's you're playing style, Bonaventura? You're the second person who has responded positively about wound guts (presumably the Gamut variety). I may have to put them back on the list...

Who, me? I play mostly jazz with various folks, about 70/30 pizz/arco, and am also in a bluegrass trio and a dixieland sextet. What about you... where are you trying to go with gut?

The wound guts do sound good after they settle in, and the Gamuts are a fine string. Aaand they are low tension, i might add... The pain with wound gut is the darn fluctuations in pitch every time the humidity changes, and I mean like 2% up or down and they react. I got used to that and, to me, it is worth it for that gut sound and playability with or without amp. Plain gut is surprizingly stable, no humidity issues there. But that brings me to why I'm even considering the Evah E...

the Pistoy is the lower tension Gamut string, I would think the Evah would be noticeably more tense. Even the new Evah Weich must be significantly more tense than either the Lyon or Pistoy. A few people have reported liking the Anima E quite a lot with the gut G and D.

I think you're probably right about the tension. For me, the Evah tension seemed to relax after a time. Maybe it will work for you too, but it's different for everybody.

But when I suggested Evah E with gut, I wasn't thinking tension, but sound and humidity. :D At least with a synthetic or steel E string, you would have at least one string that is not going to be affected by humidity changes. Good for tuning. And as for sound, I would try the Evah E again on my gut bass. I had an Evah E on my other, darker sounding steel bass but didn't like the Evah E because it wasn't bright enough. It seemed to me it then that it might work well with gut, but I can't say, I'll have to try it to know.

If tension is your main concern, I can recommend from experience the Anima E. And from what I've heard here on TB, maybe the Dominant Solos tuned down. Please post your impressions.

What about Permanents A & E with gut tops?
To me, the Perms bottom strings are rather slow and dark, something I'd expect from plain gut. (but I may be wrong, of course!)

One set up I used for a while (back when I had a second bass for arco :() was Anima E, Garbo A&D, plain gut G. This worked very well. For me, plain gut Ds are an iffy proposition because they get progessively thuddier as you go up the neck. The Garbo D was probably the best substitute (non-arco) for a plain gut D that I found.



the pistoy D is clear all the way up the neck on my bass. I've been using the Anima A and E, which is a great combination. I can play all the way up the neck on all four strings. My only compliant is the Anima's are a little quieter piz than the gamuts. I actually wish I could get a little more tension on the A and E. The equal tension of the Velvet strings work great as a full set, mixing them with other strings results in diminishing returns in my opinion. I've been thinking of getting the Gamut wrapped A and E but am worried they'll be too thick to make speak beyond the octave harmonics with the bow, which is important to me as a player. The grass is always greener...
It seems like the longer I have the Gamut/Anima mix the more the tension becomes even between the strings. Also the older the anima's get the easier they become to bow. Right now they have a nice mellow rich tone.

... plain gut Ds are an iffy proposition because they get progessively thuddier as you go up the neck.

I can't agree. For me, the Gamut Lyon plain gut D i've been playing for 10 months was thuddy for the first few weeks. It has lost that now, and is not thuddy or thunky or thwappy at all. i guess i've got the gut in my ear too. But now i can play the gut D up into thumb position with a clear sound and defined note. It may not be as focused as a Corelli :D but it ain't thunky!

the pistoy D is clear all the way up the neck on my bass. I've been using the Anima A and E, which is a great combination. I can play all the way up the neck on all four strings...

I can and do agree here. That was my experience. Animas with guts is a good mix.

... where are you trying to go with gut?

Vintage poof. I'm working with a Jump blues trio and we're going to record in a month. So, needless to say, I have to make a move soon so the strings are settled in before the sessions begin!

While the Evah strings have worked well when recorded in the past, there will probably be bass solos on the new recordings. Even though I'm unamplified in the studio, the more I attack the Evah, the more boingy it gets.

I ended up putting the Spiro A and E back on with the Gamuts. You will read mixed reviews about this combo

Hey, that was the de facto standard gut/steel mix before we had so many choices to play with. When my La Bella G popped off in the middle of the night, I went full Spirocore for close to 13 years. It's only recently that I have become ill with the string bug. Don't worry, I don't blame myself. I blame most of you! :)

Vintage poof. I'm working with a Jump blues trio and we're going to record in a month. So, needless to say, I have to make a move soon so the strings are settled in before the sessions begin!
:)

If you're going for a vintage sound I would, again, recommend the Garbos. They have just a little bit more sustain than wound gut and you can really dig in to them. I played Garbos on bottom plain guts on top for about 4 months without amp and always made myself heard.

:DTrix .... Thanks for the PM .... I just got home from a week-end of bluegrass-jamming in The Woods.

I will have to digest all of the afore-mentioned Advise ..... But for right-now ... I Say ..... The Innov SS A & E didn't work for me sound'n'tension-wise along with Gut G and D. Decent sound but too-much tension difference. Hard to figger-out on-the-fly.

The Velvet Anima / Garbo A and E were The Ticket for me to match-up with guts G and D.

However ..... On one of my Kays for bluegrass and old-timey ..... The Innov SS G and D were (and still-are) a Great Match with Spiro Weich A & E.

I will read-further tomorrow to see if I actually have something-else-useful to offer :D .

P.S. .. Those Guys ... Bobby King (read everything that Boy has writ) & Chris Dammann ..... Different as they-are ..... From above ..... Listen to Them ..... They know What's-Up :D !

They always have something useful to say (and Sparse ..... Unlike Me). I sure would like to hear them play-live-someday ..... Their sound-files don't Suck (from what I've heard) ;) .

Hey Bob

Great to hear from you. I was hoping you'd chime in. You are liking your new Jakian setup, I take it.

Bobby and Chris said pretty much the exact opposite there, but it's really a matter of taste. I happen to agree with Chris because that's my experience. But you were the Pistoy Man around here, so I'd like to ask you if you found Pistoys clear and focused up the neck or thuddier, just to take a poll (but this is not about Democracy). Btw, do you still have the Pistoys on? And since I forgot what your exact mix is, is it the Anima E and Garbo A you have, or the other way round?

I guess everybody has to make their own experiences. And the fact is, nobody can tell you how any particular string is going to sound on your bass and -- most important -- whether or not you will like it. Everything said here has to be taken with a personalized grain of salt...

That being said, I will stop now. Trix good luck in finding an E and A that works for you in the studio.

Amen

Bill :hiding:

I guess everybody has to make their own experiences. And the fact is, nobody can tell you how any particular string is going to sound on your bass and -- most important -- whether or not you will like it. Everything said here has to be taken with a personalized grain of salt...

I agree.

However things like potential string tension mismatches, major tonal differences or durability is something that we may be able to get to the bottom of, regardless of what bass or playing style we employ.

So far, all of the feedback is pointing me in some very specific directions, and I plan to make some targeted decisions based on it. Hopefully that'll save me a few dollars. And I'll most certainly report my findings so we can all learn from it!

Regarding my comments about plain gut Ds, I'm sure that depending on the bass and strings, it's possible to get better performance from a plain gut D as you go up the neck. I've never owned a particularly good and resonant bass, mostly plywood instruments. But it honestly has been my experience that once I got to around Bb on the D string, the notes began to choke and thud.

But you can adjust to this even if it is the case. It's been noted that older approaches to bass playing (i.e. Simandl, etc.) involve more shifting, more up and down movement on the neck as opposed to across the strings. The majority of the higher range is played on the G string. If you look at video of Paul Chambers or someone like that, you see that his playing is oriented that way. I think that the response of gut strings, the diameters, and the higher action they require, are the reason for this. The last 50 years has brought about many changes in string construction, and hence many changes in possible set-ups and techniques.

I certainly appreciate the joys of playing on gut (D string and all!)and I miss it. Since I only have one bass now, it's important that I have a set-up that's arco friendly and I can't deal with plain gut for arco. One day I'm going to have a second bass again!

So, I've currently been using Super-Sensitive Sensicores that Francois gave me for my E&A and regular Evah Pirazzi for D&G. This has been a good all-around set-up for pizz and arco. Previously, I had been using Spirocores (with this and that G string). I could wind up "going back to Spiros" :D at some point soon. There are advantages -- I've begun to like the "dig in" tension. And, after a lot of comparison recording from my amp's DI out, I have to say that Spiros get the best sound. But, I don't always hear them as well on gigs as I do with gut or "gut like" ;) strings.

Maybe I should just accept the fact that, to paraphrase Descartes, "I change my strings, therefore I am" That's pathetic!

... It's been noted that older approaches to bass playing (i.e. Simandl, etc.) involve more shifting, more up and down movement on the neck as opposed to across the strings. The majority of the higher range is played on the G string. If you look at video of Paul Chambers or someone like that, you see that his playing is oriented that way...

Interesting, I was just thinking about this earlier this morning while listening to Coltrane with Paul Chambers on bass. Chambers was spending a lot of time on the G and D.

Hi Guys,

I've been played all the velvets sets since the last 15 years and my best impression is stayed on the first anima i'd got ,it was gut core.
Today i use velvet 180 on one of my bass to play all types of music, they bow very nicely with an accuracy organic sound.
On my "vintage" jazz bass the best set that i playing at this moment is the chorda C.Henriquez, great gut sound, no dead notes on D string, good sustain for gut material.
They 're easy to bow ( for gut strings) and the diameter is thinner than other gut i've tryed.
The tension is similar than Velvet (low tension) maybe less well balanced between the four strings but not so much.
The price is not so expensive for a complete gut strings, 300 euros to order directly at the Pirastro Company.

All my best Olivier.

Ordered a set of Dlugolecki strings today:

G: .08
D: .11
A: .104 (NiAg wound)
E: .128 (NiAg wound)

Interestingly, these gauges are very similar to the Carlos Henriquez Chorda set. The Chorda and Garbos are on my experiment list for the future. I'll report my findings once I get 'em.

I started with the sound of gut, and nothing has come close since. But the La Bella gut string just didn't last. The Supernil was a poor, one-gig substitute. The Spiro Weich offered years of playing bliss. The Evah Pirazzi regular was a fun pitstop, but they only reminded me of the sound I love best.

The Dlugolecki strings sound fantastic. The wrapped NiAg E and A are extremely well matched to the plain D and G in both tone and tension.

Do you mean G: .80? If it were .08, it would be the thinnest bass string in history.

Do you mean G: .80? If it were .08, it would be the thinnest bass string in history.
but, man, could you bend it!

Using the string gauge converter on Dlugolecki's website, the 44 gauge G string I have comes out to be .088 inches or 2.2 millimeters.

Yup. Playing on a string that was .800 inches would probably result in the loss of a finger.

Since the purchase, I practice a bit most every day, and then perform once or twice a week. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

First, the unwound G and D:

As expected, it took close to a month before the two strings settled to the point where they would not need more than a slight turn of the tuning key during the gig to keep them on pitch. Five months later, they sound fantastic. The strings seem to only detune a half-step in serious temperature and humidity changes (cold outdoors, very warm indoors). Overall, they are easy to work with.

Now, the NiAg wound A and E:

Fantastic tone aside, it took about two months before these strings were even marginally stable during the gig. This was during the warmest months in my part of the world. To this day, these strings continue to require significant tuning during a performance especially now that the weather is cold outside, and establishments have central heat inside.

After only five months, the windings have separated from the gut core, causing both strings to buzz like a bee! Sadly, they cannot be rewound. According to Dlugolecki, they are not quite long enough for this process to take place.

The advice he offered was to simply not use this string during cold winter months when the air is dry. This seems logical, as methods of keeping the string moist enough seem to be somewhat experimental and it's hard to determine if that works or not.

If I had removed the string before now, perhaps they could have been saved. Either way, it looks as though I'm stuck with expensive, unusable strings. My plan is to move to the Garbo Light A and E for now. And if they perform well, I'll move to that string permanently as having an expensive wound gut that can only be used seasonally makes little sense to me or my wallet. I'll keep an eye on the unwound G and D, and lightly oil them in the hopes they will fair better.

In the end, if anyone were to ask if they should try a NiAg wound A and E, I'd have to first say: only if you plan to use the string seasonally in the absence of dry climate or in a space that does not utilize central heat and air, unless of course you can properly humidify the space the bass is in. Always. Of course those who have more money than sense may ignore those statements all together!

I've been using a Gamut wound A with a medium Garbo E. I'm having the same tuning issue in the cold weather but I'm not having any problems with buzzing. I keep the humidity in my house in the low 40's as much as possible in the winter so the few hours it is out for gigs doesn't seem to be that much of a problem. I tried the Garbo A but the wound A is vastly superior tone wise particularly higher on the board into thumb position. The Garbo A stunk pretty bad above 5th position although it was very usable below 5th position. I actually like the Garbo E better than the wound E.

mark

The buzzing is coming from the winding that has separated from the gut core. If twist the string with my fingers the buzzing subsides momentarily until the winding loosens up again (which happens after two-three notes).

I had that happen to a Gamut E and A after they had been put on, taken off, put on, taken off, stored for a year in a plastic bag and then put back on. They buzzed and had noticeably reduced volume (they also smelled a little like meat that had turned as well). I sent them back to Dan Larson at Gamut and he rewound them for $50 each. They came back better than ever. I've had the wound A on since November and I've had no problems (so far) with the windings loosening and I live in a much harsher climate than you do. I played a gig on 12/28 where I had to stand next to a single pane window. It was 15 degrees outside and blustery. Every gust of wind would send a breeze of sub freezing air rushing over me and the bass. The A string kept going sharp. I had to seriously detune it at least 5 times that night. Totally irritating but no problems with the windings.

I'm actually thinking about putting either a Garbo or an Anima A on for the winter because of the tuning issues. I didn't really like the Garbo A above 5th position but as whole, the string matched the gut D and G pretty well. Not as well as wound gut but with no real tuning issues. I actually like the Garbo E better than the Gamut wrapped gut E. The Gamut is a great string but the Garbo sounds even better imo and doesn't have any of the tuning issues. Plus the Garbo costs $73 and the Gamut cost $134 (although the Gamut will last a lot longer than the Garbo so that might not be a good comparison).

Maybe you should look into a different brand of gut for the E and A if you want to play wrapped gut. Dlugolecki is supposed to be great but if he can't rewind A and E strings, that's a really expensive problem waiting to happen. I've been totally happy with Gamut.

mark

My input would be that the only wound gut E and A that I have not had winding issues with is Pirastro Chorda's.

My input would be that the only wound gut E and A that I have not had winding issues with is Pirastro Chorda's.

Good to know. I've been hot to try the Garbo for some time. If I like them, I may not look back as the high cost of wound gut strings, the extensive play-in time, and the tuning issues during winter months require more patience than I probably have to spare...

I should also add that I live in the Pacific Northwest, where things are pretty mild. There is no way I could tolerate having gut strings mixed with anything other than wound gut. The differing sonic qualities and feel would bother me way to much. But, if I had to deal with the problems that people in more extreme climates face, I might change my mind.

I agree that Chordas seem to last really well with no issues of windings coming loose and the Carlos Henriquez set is best balanced of all I have tried. The imitation gut strings don't come close - they just get duller as you play them in - the gut gets better as they stretch and get solid tone. Seems a lot of folks give up after a short time and so miss out on fidning how good they do sound. The only negatives are the weather change effects but all you have to do is tune them and they are fine. After all whole orchestra sections played them until the 60s aside from the jazz players - arco or pizz, all it takes is a careful listen to the tone and for me the warm fat spread of gut isn't equalled by any metal strings or synthetics, and neither is the expressive complex tone. Like most worthwhile things they take work to get good results.

Once some "winter replacement strings" arrive, I plan to see if I can rehydrate these strings in the hopes that the gut cores will swell and the windings will tighten up. It's a "stretch" but it's worth a try. And if that doesn't work, I may even strip the winding off and try play the cores!

it's getting on 18 month since i strung my gut bass with Gamuts. As for the copper wound E and A mediums, they are still going strong. No buzzes or unwinding at all. I'm ordering a new set with medium+ A and heavy E just to have backup.

it's getting on 18 month since i strung my gut bass with Gamuts. As for the copper wound E and A mediums, they are still going strong. No buzzes or unwinding at all. I'm ordering a new set with medium+ A and heavy E just to have backup.

Good to know. I have a feeling my winding issues are a result of my particular application however: transporting the bass in and out of warm/cold environments and the dry winter air after a very humid summer. The Gamuts are definitely on my radar since it appears that the company has no problem rewinding their strings. I need longevity at a price that does not eat up my earnings!