I want to be a jazz bass player amungst other things. I don't have many people to talk to I'd like to hear peoples ideas, tips what ever.

Cheers

Well I am new to jazz myself but I think what you need to do is get some jazz CD's and discover what type of jazz interests you. You might be drawn to the old standards or maybe into modern "free jazz". Either way you need to listen to the music as much as possible then either get a teacher (suggested) or get a great method book that will show you step by step the intro to the world of jazz music. Note reading study is a must! Scales and modes a must! Arpeggios and chord study a must! Learning walking styles a must! Don't think you can run before you walk (PUN) But seriously these are all techniques and studies that are used in bass support for jazz music. I have probably left out some other important lessons or techniques so forgive me. Just don't get discouraged my friend you have a lifetime of study ahead of you whether you are 20 or 80 years old you will never learn it all but you can be a great bass player none the less.
As to what method books to acquire I personally think Ed Friedland has the best teaching books that can be had. There are others equally as good so you'll just have to search around to find them. Some of the greats in the business have excellent method books available. Also don't forget to do a search right here on TALKBASS for some info on jazz -- some of the best in the business have great suggestions and sudy techniques to offer for free so look around but get used to hearing "get a teacher". It really is the best way to go but you can learn a lot on your own just takes longer and you'll never know if you have been doing it right or wrong or if a better fingering technique would be better. Hope this will get you thinking and just remember to practice some everyday. The five minutes you only took today to practice may be the day that you aced the scale you have been trying to play for days. It happens that way. All of a sudden a light goes off in your head and wham you nail that progression you have been frustrated with for so long.
Keep the faith - don't get discouraged- and remember that a wealth of knowledge is available at this site as well as others. This is the best though!

Good luck

bcarll

It's time to get a teacher.

Go to some jazz clubs in the area and approach the bassist on a break, or after the final set. Ask him/her if they know any good bass teachers, for jazz, in the area. Start there.

You can supplement your learning with things like listening. Listening is extremely important. Buy as many jazz CDs as you can. Also some good books are Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and any books in the line of Jamey Aebersold. (Do a search for Aebersold here at Talkbass and you'll find some good threads talking about his different books, (there are probably around 80 or so out there).

But first and foremost, I suggest to find a teacher.

I'm no jazz expert, not even close, but I have been actively playing Jazz in a Jazz Band for the last year, and though the transition wasn't easy, I've gotten better at it through a lot of practice, and a helpful friend or two.

I haven't been able to find a competent bass teacher around my area, so unfortuantly I've had to depend on the greats like Charles Mingus, Jaco, and the bassists for big bands and the like.

First off, you will want to know your chords/patterns inside out, and the scales they were made out of. Start small, with majors, Dorian, Myxcelidion (sp?), than go to 7ths, 9ths, 11ths and so on.

Learn your modes, and learn how to walk. Definatly get a bass book on Jazz or something.

After you got you're basics down, hang out with other jazz players, but different instruments, especially more experienced ones. I've learned more about jazz bass from a trumpet player than I have from any bassplayer (though I wish I had a good bass teacher to help me along.)

But its often useful to see the side of the story from another instrument. I learned how to transition from one chord to the next smoothly as to not interupt a solo pattern, and how to keep the melody going through a simple walking bassline.

Alot of jazz isn't "bass only" stuff, its applied to every instrument. So make sure you understand how the bass is USED in Jazz, just like you understand how its used in Rock, and any other form of music.

But just incase this is to long for you to remember exactly, just read this.

Learn to Walk first.
Don't get too complicated until you fully understand you're theory.
Learn your Jazz scales (Minor Blue Scales, and even Major Blue Scales) and your bebop scales.
Don't be afraid to hit a "wrong" note, follow it up with a "right" note and it'll sound more authentic than Louis Armstrong.

I'm relatively new to playing jazz myself, but I think I can offer some general advice...

As mentioned , you should get a teacher, who can show you how to do and how not to do. If you're completly new you should probably get used to a very important thing in jazz.... triple-meter contrary to most rock/pop/funk which is felt in duple-meter.. You feel two 8ths like a dotted 8th and a 16th , instead of straight 8ths.

Also, learning chords and chord tones is a must... as well as scales... although I'd say learning how to build chords is more important (scales aren't that hard after you get the basic concept)......

Well anyway a good teacher and perhaps a few books on the subject is to recommend... good luck

/lovebown

Originally posted by Lovebown

As mentioned , you should get a teacher, who can show you how to do and how not to do. If you're completly new you should probably get used to a very important thing in jazz.... triple-meter contrary to most rock/pop/funk which is felt in duple-meter.. You feel two 8ths like a dotted 8th and a 16th , instead of straight 8ths.


Not to be a naysayer here, but Nay. It's a pretty common misconception that the swing eighths are felt as dotted eighth and sixteenth, but that's duple feel, not triple. Two 8ths should feel like an 8th note triplet, with the first two notes tied.

Mostly just listen to some of the greats and you should get the feel, Jon is right about the triplet thing. Also learn the melodic minor and all the degree's (modes) of it. The melodic minor is used all over jazz.....

Originally posted by Pacman


Not to be a naysayer here, but Nay. It's a pretty common misconception that the swing eighths are felt as dotted eighth and sixteenth, but that's duple feel, not triple. Two 8ths should feel like an 8th note triplet, with the first two notes tied.


...and this only gets you barely inside the front gate of the ballpark. :)

Originally posted by Pacman


Not to be a naysayer here, but Nay. It's a pretty common misconception that the swing eighths are felt as dotted eighth and sixteenth, but that's duple feel, not triple. Two 8ths should feel like an 8th note triplet, with the first two notes tied.

Ok I suppose you're right (not that the diffrence is that huge). Anyway I think one thing that is often a bit overlooked is rhytm in Jazz... working on getting the 8ths right as well as the quarters (which takes long time, I suppose).
It's a lot of talk about chords and scales etc. but what's really important is to have the rhytm foundation down.....

Jazz is a state of mind. One doesn't merely play it, one lives it.

Originally posted by Lovebown


Ok I suppose you're right (not that the diffrence is that huge).

The difference is huge. It's the difference between swingin' and not swingin.


Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald



...and this only gets you barely inside the front gate of the ballpark. :)

You got that right, brother. Way right.

Do any of you jazz guys use effect pedals to give you jazz a little something extra I know Jaco used a chorus pedal, a Wah and the fuzz of his amp but not sure if it was jazz he was playing.

Ideas for some cool tones in jazz with effects guys?

Originally posted by TaySteLess_2000
Do any of you jazz guys use effect pedals to give you jazz a little something extra I know Jaco used a chorus pedal, a Wah and the fuzz of his amp but not sure if it was jazz he was playing.

Ideas for some cool tones in jazz with effects guys?


Well, I use a Cerebral Harmonizer and an Aural Melodicreator on most gigs. With both units, I find that if you set the "Ears" control to 11, everything works out just fine. :)

Originally posted by Pacman


The difference is huge. It's the difference between swingin' and not swingin.


Have to agree. We could be talking a Swing Jazz vs. Blues Jazz just by the space in the triplet.


Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald



Well, I use a Cerebral Harmonizer and and Aural Melodicreator on most gigs. With both units, I find that if you set the "Ears" control to 11, everything works out just fine. :)

Have you tried the finger maximizer or the anti_bow_squealerator?

Both great products.

Bah, ignore what I said bout that, and listen to Ed, he knows MUCH more about jazz/bass than I will ever learn in my lifetime(actually, I see myself being a fairly competent bassist sometime in the next...oh, 20 or 30 years.)

And about the Swinging Notes, remember that (as I was taught) that Jazz was almost a way for the musicians to say "screw you" to classical European music, giving themselves a new flavor. Thus a wrong note here and there was acceptable, because it added to the "dirty" sound of the Blues or Jazz. Its a matter of FEEL.

Some things you can't learn through a book, and the Swingin 8ths are something you have to listen and then FEEL. Don't know how to explain it more

I learnt a lot with ol' Ray's method.
http://graphics.encoremusic.com/1480003.jpg

Excellent book, especially for a starter in jazz.
It'll help you building walking lines, undrstanding chord changes and navigating though charts.

I don't find jazz harder to play than any other style.
Just different.
You really need to take this binary beat out of your mind and think ternary. Usually difficult for former rock players.
Minimal theory is required. Understanding the way keys, chords and modes are related.
Reading helps a lot, because you won't find tabs for jazz, which would be pointless because the fun is in building your own lines.

Originally posted by Pacman


The difference is huge. It's the difference between swingin' and not swingin.


Well..... I don't think my dotted8-16th and triplet thingie sound that much diffrent (to me its swing 8th notes). Anyway, I guess what I was trying to say is , if you're reading jazz music you should keep in mind to always treat the 8th notes (and they usuasally are written as regular 8th notes) and not play them straight. I suppose that could be a mistake a beginner could make ...?

I think that feeling 2 and 4 also helps this ....
/lovebown

Between
Standard jazz
Jazz funk
Contempory jazz
Jazz fusion
Modern jazz

and can you give an example of a song or artist or something for referance

Thanx in advance

Standard jazz => there is no such thing as standard jazz. In people's mind, it usually reffers either to bebop (Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Art Blakey & the Messengers, ...) or New Orleans Style (Dixieland, Sydney Bechet, early Louis Armstrong)

Jazz funk => typically Maceo Parker, but apart of him not that many people use this term. It could fall either into jazz rock (Headhunters, 70s era Miles Davis) or fusion (see lower)

Contempory jazz => Eeeeh. Jazz made nowadays ? I guess anybody from the ECM label, like Keith Jarret or Pat Metheny would fall into this category.

Jazz fusion => The jazz equivalent of progressive rock. It started in the 70s. Magma, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Weather Report are the main fusion jazz bands.

Modern jazz => This is not a musical style. It's a dance thingy. It reffers to ballet dancing jazz, opposite to the old couple dancing jazz. Watch Fame to get the idea.

Of course and like classifications in any other style, frontiers are not very well defined. THere are tons of other eras, styles and sub styles.
Other people may have different ideas about those.

Originally posted by Jazz Ad
Standard jazz => there is no such thing as standard jazz. In people's mind, it usually reffers either to bebop (Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Art Blakey & the Messengers, ...) or New Orleans Style (Dixieland, Sydney Bechet, early Louis Armstrong)



I think you are right, but he could be referring to "Jazz Standard" which is a commonly-used term?

So there is a core repertory of "Standards" - tunes which a full-time Jazz pro would be expected to know without sheet music and would be able to improvise over freely.

The more of these tunes you know, the more it helps you at gigs/jams and in terms of progressing as a musician, as they often involve concepts which are essential to an understanding of Jazz, as well as ideas that you can use in solos.

This is the way most of the greats learned Jazz - bu playing standards and listening to what other musicans did with them, then re-working them.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
I think you are right, but he could be referring to "Jazz Standard" which is a commonly-used term?

So there is a core repertory of "Standards" - tunes which a full-time Jazz pro would be expected to know without sheet music and would be able to improvise over freely.

The more of these tunes you know, the more it helps you at gigs/jams and in terms of progressing as a musician, as they often involve concepts which are essential to an understanding of Jazz, as well as ideas that you can use in solos.

This is the way most of the greats learned Jazz - bu playing standards and listening to what other musicans did with them, then re-working them.
You're probably right. I didn't think about this.

Great thread!

So I've been looking back at some past jazz-related threads and reading some articles. I'm trying to improve my basslines. While trying to write a line for "My Funny Valentine" I've realized I've hit some kind of standstill or something. I've listened to a few versions of this song (minus bass) and still can't figure out the feel to it. The line I wrote isn't very good. Should it be a regular walking line? What? I just wrote a bassline for "All of Me" and I'm pleased with it..and I've never heard this song before in my life. I just had to rely on the melody.

I think my question is How can one improve writing jazz basslines? Is there some secret behind all this? How do you know what kind of jazz line you are writing when you barely know the song you are writing the line to (even after looking at the melody)?

Thanks :)
Stephanie

Originally posted by stephanie
Great thread!

So I've been looking back at some past jazz-related threads and reading some articles. I'm trying to improve my basslines. While trying to write a line for "My Funny Valentine" I've realized I've hit some kind of standstill or something. I've listened to a few versions of this song (minus bass) and still can't figure out the feel to it. The line I wrote isn't very good. Should it be a regular walking line? What? I just wrote a bassline for "All of Me" and I'm pleased with it..and I've never heard this song before in my life. I just had to rely on the melody.

I think my question is How can one improve writing jazz basslines? Is there some secret behind all this? How do you know what kind of jazz line you are writing when you barely know the song you are writing the line to (even after looking at the melody)?

Thanks :)
Stephanie

Well, as far as knowing what to play, how is the tune being played?

Bossa Nova, Latin, Swing, Funk, Ballad, Bebop, Jazz Waltz???

Then you've got tempo.

Fast, Med, Slow???

So, you could play My Funny Valentine as a Med. Funk, or a Fast Bebop, or a Med. Swing. Each style of jazz is going to have it's own rhythmic variations. Swing is often characterized by "swung 8ths notes," while bossas have a very distinct 1-5 feel, (which my teacher refers to as "The Business Man's Two-Step).

It's not a bad idea to take a tune like "My Funny Valentine" and play it as a bossa, as a swing, as a ballad.

Generally speaking, the style for the tune is agreed upon on the stage, and may be as brief as the band leader telling you how to play it, or something mutually agreed upon at a previous rehearsal, or something of that nature.

Originally posted by stephanie
Great thread!

So I've been looking back at some past jazz-related threads and reading some articles. I'm trying to improve my basslines. While trying to write a line for "My Funny Valentine" I've realized I've hit some kind of standstill or something. I've listened to a few versions of this song (minus bass) and still can't figure out the feel to it. The line I wrote isn't very good. Should it be a regular walking line? What? I just wrote a bassline for "All of Me" and I'm pleased with it..and I've never heard this song before in my life. I just had to rely on the melody.

I think my question is How can one improve writing jazz basslines? Is there some secret behind all this? How do you know what kind of jazz line you are writing when you barely know the song you are writing the line to (even after looking at the melody)?

Thanks :)
Stephanie

Again, I can't but recommend Ray Brown's method. He starts from very basic stuff and expands it to complicated walking lines over tough chord charts.
Very player-friendly, not an obscure esoteric theory book.
http://graphics.encoremusic.com/1480003.jpg

Originally posted by stephanie
I think my question is How can one improve writing jazz basslines? Is there some secret behind all this? How do you know what kind of jazz line you are writing when you barely know the song you are writing the line to (even after looking at the melody)?

Thanks :)
Stephanie

The secret is to write basslines. I know that sounds a bit pedantic, but really that's the deal. Listen, and write, and listen and write again.... eventually, you start to know what works and what doesn't. Plus all the things these other guys have said.

Thanks! :)

Yeah, I've been writing and writing. I do see somewhat of an improvement. Maybe I'm just rushing myself when I think I'm not at the level I wish I was at when writing jazz basslines.

This makes me think of improvising: It takes me almost a whole week to figure out a (good) bassline. When I just try to improvise, and not write anything down, etc.....it's not very good. :( I'm not downing on myself here. I know it takes practice...But I feel like I'm missing something here, despite all the advice I've been given by my teacher and here.

One good thing: I'm listening to more Jazz!

Anyway, Jazzbo, I've been playing "My Funny Valentine" at a slow tempo. My teacher had said sometimes when the band plays the song they funk it up, but I don't think he wanted me to get into that yet LOL. So it's just slow...is that what you would call ballad? So I wrote it as a regular walking bassline. I think what's messing me up is that I'm going in a back-and-forth direction with the chords. I seem to playing the same notes over and over again. I have the sound in my head how I want it to be but it doesn't want to flow out of my fingers. Hmmm...

For ballad, I stick to 2 half notes per bar. That's generally considered a jazz ballad feel. Funny Valentine lends itself rather nicely with that, since you can voice lead down the changes in the first phrase.

Could you do me a favor Ed and tab this out for me?
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attachment.php?postid=639498

Originally posted by stephanie
So I wrote it as a regular walking bassline. I think what's messing me up is that I'm going in a back-and-forth direction with the chords. I seem to playing the same notes over and over again.


For the head the A's are usually in 2, you can walk the bridge if you want. For "Valentine" where there's all those C minor chords, that usually gets a descending thing C-B-Bb-A- (one bar each) to Ab. I usually play, for example, C on beats one and two then on three and four do a little descending arpeggio thing and land on B, etc. But remember anything you put in there has to be in the C minor tonality.

For the bridge, where the chords walk up and down, you vary the line by using different voice leading, octaves. That kind of progression really lends itself to melodic playing. For example, the beginning of the bridge is Eb Fm | Gm Fm, right? With quarter notes you can play a melodic thing like Eb-G-F-Ab|G-D-C-D (G-D-C-F). Do you see how the notes connect?

The feel for any tune can be anything (like someone said), a trio I've been playing with does this one as a rhumba, but I think you're best off if you learn the tunes the usual way they're played first. Only then can you really know the tune and understand how other things might have been arrived at.

Originally posted by stephanie
I think my question is How can one improve writing jazz basslines? Is there some secret behind all this? How do you know what kind of jazz line you are writing when you barely know the song you are writing the line to (even after looking at the melody)?


There's been some great advice given so far, but I just wanted to check we're not missing the obvious here? So although it is good to hear the melody in your head, I must admit that when I started playing Jazz(and still now to a great extent) - as the bass player I am just thinking chords!

So - any Jazz tune is just a chord chart to me and there are these chords going past at a certain rate and that is what I am concentrating on - I often try to blank out everything else, the first time though and get the structure and shape of the chordal movement fixed in my head and only then "look up " and listen to what else is going on!

So what Ed and others have said is right and the more I play, the more I aspire to being sympathetic to what going on around me - but I just wanted to say that as a bass player coming to Jazz, chord charts are things you have to get quickly fixed in your head.

The other thing about "feel" - well I would just ask the band leader - "so what's the feel on this one" and they invariably say what they want !! ;)

As I say - this all may be overwhelmingly obvious, but just thought I'd state it!

I missed the body of this thread and I wouldnt have anything helpful to add... so I'll just spout some old BS anyway ;)

I've had one jam with a pianist to run through some starndards and I found it damned near impossible to keep time and maintain the structure of the song while he was generally jazzing about.

I've been playing through a couple of Abersold CDs at home, minus the recorded bass and it's a miracle if I manage to actually play through an entire track and know where I am start to finish!!! - some of the blues numbers, watermelon man etc pretty are easy to follow (very different from leading obviously!), but when it comes down to lots of chord changes (ie. more than one per bar for more than a few bars!) it becomes really difficult.

It's something I want to do too, but I know it will take me so much time even to get to an even vaguely reasonable standard. Still, it'd be great to be able to play thourgh even the most simple of standards with a full band. :)

Damn, what a lovely thread.

Originally posted by jazzbo
Could you do me a favor Ed and tab this out for me?
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attachment.php?postid=639498

I love you guys!!! :D :D

Wow! That's a lot of advice to absorb guys. :)

Thanks,
Stephanie

Do most of you play fretted or fretless basses and why?

This is great guys keep the info coming. :)

Originally posted by TaySte_2000
Do most of you play fretted or fretless basses and why?

This is great guys keep the info coming. :)

A lot of these guys play the fretless bull fiddle. Tis a silly instrument, impractical really, but it makes them feel better about themselves. Durrl says it's something about "the tone". Whatever. Ed I don't know, maybe it's compensating for something. Like the hair. Hmm. Don't know. Crackhouse, well, I just don't really know. They're all closet bass guitarists. They have 'em, bust 'em out when they really wanna say something on bass! Don't let 'em tell you otherwise. Liars. Liars! LIARS!

Eh-hum.

Anyhoo, I play da fretted and da fretless. Mostly da fretless.

Originally posted by TaySte_2000
Do most of you play fretted or fretless basses and why?

This is great guys keep the info coming. :)

I play fretted for jazz rock and funk because a percussive sound is required.
Fretless for more classic real book jazz because it calls for a smooth tone.

Originally posted by TaySte_2000
Do most of you play fretted or fretless basses and why?

This is great guys keep the info coming. :)

I play on either, regardless of the type of music. On a tune like this I prefer fretless... 'cause it's purty.

I've played "...Valentine" in so many different ways it's not funny, from ballad with whole or half notes or walking, funk, merengue, waltz, go-go, polka(:eek: )... the main factor in deciding what I'm going to play for me is who I'm playing with and what I think will best propel them. For example, some like the added tension of lingering on a passing note, some don't. I keep the chord structure and melody in mind and try to work around it.

While I do play Jazz arrangements I still think I have a long way to go before I consider myself a Jazz player.

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
I don't play electric bass.

The vast majority of Jazz bass players don't! :D


(In this thread I seem destined to be stating the obvious!)

Originally posted by jazzbo


A lot of these guys play the fretless bull fiddle. Tis a silly instrument, impractical really,

You try hiding my Pizza gut behind a Carvin.