Hi Rich and Aaron

Wow, a L6 forum on Talkbass - who would have ever thought that possible :eek: :p :cool:

But since Line6 does seem to take a renewed interest in us bassist, let me repeat one of the most common complaints on the L6 forum also here:
Are there any plans in providing users with new amp and cab models? Or improve on some existing ones?

L6 has spent so much more effort and R&D resources on guitarists' gear upgrades - makes us bass players a bit envious :smug:

Let me add to that:

Would it be possible to make the model packs downward compatible, so that Bass Pod xt / live / Pro useres could take advantage of them and not just X3 users?

I bought my Bod xt in '05, no upgrades since and obsolete today... :rollno:

Hi Rich and Aaron

Wow, a L6 forum on Talkbass - who would have ever thought that possible :eek: :p :cool:

But since Line6 does seem to take a renewed interest in us bassist, let me repeat one of the most common complaints on the L6 forum also here:
Are there any plans in providing users with new amp and cab models? Or improve on some existing ones?

L6 has spent so much more effort and R&D resources on guitarists' gear upgrades - makes us bass players a bit envious :smug:

Can speak specifically to future products but I hope our presence here would be somewhat of an answer for now.

Can speak specifically to future products but I hope our presence here would be somewhat of an answer for now.

LOL, very diplomatic .... elegantly side stepping all points raised....

ok, I won't hold my breath :rolleyes:

LOL, very diplomatic .... elegantly side stepping all points raised....

ok, I won't hold my breath :rolleyes:

No, I think that he's saying that corporate policy and SEC rules limit what can be said about future products, not that Line 6 doesn't care about bassists. They're here to listen to bassists, not ignore us.

No, I think that he's saying that corporate policy and SEC rules limit what can be said about future products, not that Line 6 doesn't care about bassists. They're here to listen to bassists, not ignore us.

Exactly. We have to be real careful.

Exactly. We have to be real careful.

Quite so, I do appreciate that.
But let me ask you as Line 6 product manager:
Is it possible (=technically viable) to have future POD X3 model upgrades downward compatible to load as XT models ?

Since you specialize in the Lowdown range, maybe you could kick that question to one of your colleagues ;)

I personally would be prepared to pay for such a model pack, that is, if it would provide a meaningful improvement on the existing XT models :smug:

I too would be VERY open to purchasing software that would enhance my Bass Pod XT Pro.

Wish list: New amp models and increased pre-set locations.

THX, Marc

LOL, very diplomatic .... elegantly side stepping all points raised....

ok, I won't hold my breath :rolleyes:
They're here to listen to bassists, not ignore us.

Quite so, I do appreciate that.
But let me ask you as Line 6 product manager:
Is it possible (=technically viable) to have future POD X3 model upgrades downward compatible to load as XT models ?

Since you specialize in the Lowdown range, maybe you could kick that question to one of your colleagues ;)

I personally would be prepared to pay for such a model pack, that is, if it would provide a meaningful improvement on the existing XT models :smug:

Any news? ....still holding my breath :hmm:

Quite so, I do appreciate that.
But let me ask you as Line 6 product manager:
Is it possible (=technically viable) to have future POD X3 model upgrades downward compatible to load as XT models ?

Since you specialize in the Lowdown range, maybe you could kick that question to one of your colleagues ;)

I personally would be prepared to pay for such a model pack, that is, if it would provide a meaningful improvement on the existing XT models :smug:

Guys,

I am so used to using the subscribed threads function that I forgot to jump into the actual forum area and missed a bunch of your questions. I won't let that happen again.

Peace,

Rich


Rich, could you please subscribe to this thread so that you won't miss the question I posted on 08-24....
pleeeeze ;)

Quite so, I do appreciate that.
But let me ask you as Line 6 product manager:
Is it possible (=technically viable) to have future POD X3 model upgrades downward compatible to load as XT models ?

Since you specialize in the Lowdown range, maybe you could kick that question to one of your colleagues ;)

I personally would be prepared to pay for such a model pack, that is, if it would provide a meaningful improvement on the existing XT models :smug:

Oh sure, I could check this out. But what models on the X3 aren't on your XT? Have you bought all the model packs?

Oh sure, I could check this out. But what models on the X3 aren't on your XT? Have you bought all the model packs?

Quite the opposite, there's currently more on the Bass Pod xt than bass-related stuff on the X3, not my point though.

Maybe I didn't put my question clear enough.

Since hopefully Line6 might offer new models of amps and cabs currently not available or provide revised and improved versions of currently available models for the X3 platform, I wanted to know if it is technically feasible to make the models downward compatible to the XT platform.

This might then be offered to XT owners as upgrade for sale. The continuity of platform growth through downward compatibility would not only mollify quite a few XT owners, but also assure prospective X3 owners that their investment will not become obsolete when the next product cycle comes around....

Quite the opposite, there's currently more on the Bass Pod xt than bass-related stuff on the X3, not my point though.

Maybe I didn't put my question clear enough.

Since hopefully Line6 might offer new models of amps and cabs currently not available or provide revised and improved versions of currently available models for the X3 platform, I wanted to know if it is technically feasible to make the models downward compatible to the XT platform.

This might then be offered to XT owners as upgrade for sale. The continuity of platform growth through downward compatibility would not only mollify quite a few XT owners, but also assure prospective X3 owners that their investment will not become obsolete when the next product cycle comes around....

I think that has more to do with hardware than software. If we come with next generation modeling and it needs a bigger faster processor to run it, it won't be downward compatible. Does that make sense?

Rich, thanks for taking the time and sorry to bother you with this since you are not the Line6 product manager for the POD range.

I think that has more to do with hardware than software.

So the models are then compatible, yes?


If we come with next generation modeling and it needs a bigger faster processor to run it, it won't be downward compatible.

So the X3 is a faster machine than the XT platform (faster CPU, higher clock rate, but NOT higher resolution, as both are 24bit architecture).
Currently you run basically only XT models on the X3 platform with processing capacity to spare.

Does that make sense?

I thought with a straight forward technical question like "compatibility" it was either a "Yes" or a "No, because of technical reason #1-n", no hypothesizing necessary.

Rich, thanks for taking the time and sorry to bother you with this since you are not the Line6 product manager for the POD range.



So the models are then compatible, yes?




So the X3 is a faster machine than the XT platform (faster CPU, higher clock rate, but NOT higher resolution, as both are 24bit architecture).
Currently you run basically only XT models on the X3 platform with processing capacity to spare.



I thought with a straight forward technical question like "compatibility" it was either a "Yes" or a "No, because of technical reason #1-n", no hypothesizing necessary.

OK, I am still a bit confused. Tell you what. Ask me your questions again as clear as possible and I will get with the POD guys and ask them to help me answer you.

Hello Rich and OldogNewTrick...I'm following this thread with guarded optimism.. One question: Is there " model packs" that can be purchased for the Bass XT Pro? I didn't think so.. I have all the updates...

THX,

Marc

OK, I am still a bit confused.

:eek: :hmm:

Tell you what. Ask me your questions again as clear as possible and I will get with the POD guys and ask them to help me answer you.

:hyper:




Is it possible (=technically viable) to have future POD X3 model upgrades downward compatible to load as XT models?




Line6 might offer new models of amps and cabs currently not available or provide revised and improved versions of currently available models for the X3 platform, I wanted to know if it is technically feasible to make the models downward compatible to the XT platform.

This might then be offered to XT owners as upgrade for sale.


I am somewhat at a loss to put it any clearer than that. Tell you what, you could just forward the above to the L6 Pod Product Manager(s) and see if they can make heads or tails of my question.

Lastly, just to avoid possible confusion:
All above is bass related. That is, I am talking about models of bass amps and bass cabs on the X3 and when talking about XT, I am referring to the Bass Pod xt (Bean/PRO/Live).

Rich, I realize from all your recent post that you've been real busy, but could you perhaps follow up on my compatibility question with your Pod product manager colleagues....

I trust you did forward the question, right ?

Rich, I realize from all your recent post that you've been real busy, but could you perhaps follow up on my compatibility question with your Pod product manager colleagues....

I trust you did forward the question, right ?

I did forward and I am double checking. I think I clearly understand your question now.

Are saying in the future if we make some awesome models for new PODs will they be sell-able to the XT line as model packs?

Are saying in the future if we make some awesome models for new PODs will they be sell-able to the XT line as model packs?

In a nut-shell - Yes :)

In a nut-shell - Yes :)

I am not sure. I would think it would be dependent on how much DSP the new stuff needs.

As an example, we cannot offer the reverbs from Verbzilla to XT guys. It takes up way to much of the DSP, for POD products we have to spend the DSP on the amp modeling.

ok, I hear you.

Not that it wouldn't be most welcome to have some improvements in the synth models or the envelope filters or, or, or, .... but I gotta stay realistic here.....

Let's stick with the original question of August 24 regarding compatibility of amp/cab models of the X3 platform to the xt platform.

Let's leave all effects and DSP intensive stuff out of it.

ok, I hear you.

Not that it wouldn't be most welcome to have some improvements in the synth models or the envelope filters or, or, or, .... but I gotta stay realistic here.....

Let's stick with the original question of August 24 regarding compatibility of amp/cab models of the X3 platform to the xt platform.

Let's leave all effects and DSP intensive stuff out of it.

Same problem if we start using more DSP to model around.

If you bought a Chevy Cavalier a few years ago but like what today's V8 Chevrolet Corvette offers you, it would require enough modification to accommodate your desire to have its V8 engine in it that it would require you removing your AC unit and restructuring the Cavalier in such a way that would make it difficult. It might have some things at the cost of other, equally valuable but altogether different things.

I suspect it's an example loaded with difficulty, but hopefully it illustrates the point well enough that's there's only so much that could be updated and included in the XT, based on the DSP included therein, to accommodate some of the newest functionality offered by their newest, most powerful products.

Yes, OrionManMatt, I hear you and acknowledge this example of the limitations of downward loading. That said, The risk to the company, namely Line 6, is losing the fical buying public. I example that if I don't get any updates or for my XT Pro platform,despite purchases (new short-board) while singing the Line 6 "praises" to the uninitiated (i.e. potential buying public) I will feel NEGLECTED.... If I feel neglected I explore other EXCITING processing options (Roland , Boss, BBE, SansAmp etc., etc. ), Lots out there!

Result: Bye, bye Line 6........ This company knows this thus the long perceived ignoring of the bass community resulting in current "reaching out" exampled through this very thread.......

Point is: Even Microsoft updates to older platforms (free) and there's evidence that there is a willing untapped market of older Line 6 customers (myself included with Bass XT Pro still selling for over $900 Canadian--Freakin' criminal for a discontinued product--rant over) who would feel "taken care of" and appreciated while LIne 6 could still realize financial gains...

Don't tell me new models could not be produced to fit the limitations of the XT Pro. I ain't buying that nonsense.

I'm 43 years old, I don't have to lift huge heavy rigs anymore, plus I have disposible income I did not have when I was in "touring mode". I will choose my purchases wisely based on many points...


A " currently" devoted Line 6 fan and user, Marc

Yes, OrionManMatt, I hear you and acknowledge this example of the limitations of downward loading. That said, The risk to the company, namely Line 6, is losing the fical buying public. I example that if I don't get any updates or for my XT Pro platform,despite purchases (new short-board) while singing the Line 6 "praises" to the uninitiated (i.e. potential buying public) I will feel NEGLECTED.... If I feel neglected I explore other EXCITING processing options (Roland , Boss, BBE, SansAmp etc., etc. ), Lots out there!

Result: Bye, bye Line 6........ This company knows this thus the long perceived ignoring of the bass community resulting in current "reaching out" exampled through this very thread.......

Point is: Even Microsoft updates to older platforms (free) and there's evidence that there is a willing untapped market of older Line 6 customers (myself included with Bass XT Pro still selling for over $900 Canadian--Freakin' criminal for a discontinued product--rant over) who would feel "taken care of" and appreciated while LIne 6 could still realize financial gains...

Don't tell me new models could not be produced to fit the limitations of the XT Pro. I ain't buying that nonsense.

I'm 43 years old, I don't have to lift huge heavy rigs anymore, plus I have disposible income I did not have when I was in "touring mode". I will choose my purchases wisely based on many points...


A " currently" devoted Line 6 fan and user, Marc

I don't understand. We took the modeling as far as we could when the XT first came out. Better modeling will need new power and hardware. So his analogy is a good one. There is no room. It would be like Microsoft finishing Windows 7 and then, as you are saying we should be able to do, they make a backwards compatible copy. What would they call it. Windows XP again? Of course not, the new windows 7 will not run on certain computers. I am typing to you on a Mac PowerBook G4. I cannot load Leopard or Snow Leopard on it. It is still a killer computer though. It does what I need it to do.

Also, there are new programs I would like to run on my computer like Yahoo Messenger. But Yahoo stopped building their messenger for my computer. Why? Not enough people want it for the Powerbook G4. Oh well, they can't make a messenger for me and a few other people, they have to support new computers. I understand that.

But, that said, I hear and understand you point of view.
Hope this helps you understand a bit.

I would like to know what gear you know of has put out more updates than the XT. You name companies that I didn't even know did updates.

It's like a family disagreement.. I'll "bitch" internally but fight to the death with anyone else.

I DON'T CARE WHAT THE OTHER COMPANIES ARE DOING (re: updates). This is my company of choice!! Telling me that upgrades are not, or may not occur based on my platform doesn't cut it. Comparing is means nothing because I expect to be treated like family.. I expect Line 6 to outdo and outform the competition.Nothing less. Don't leave me out in the cold..

Yeah, the X3 could be seen as a "slight" (i.e. all in one..). That's crap for bass players regardless. I shouldn't have to justify that whatsoever I believe. (Must buy the "all in one"). even the M9 your pitchin'. Cool it applies to bass players.. Too bad it's not a a bass model though..

Listen, you're upfront and I do respect you BUT Line 6 needs to hear the message from those buyin' and sellin' on the front lines (despite the bull---t messages--read many threads on TB..). We face daily misconceptions regarding modelling. But converts are made BY US ON THE FRONT LINES.. Not to detract from cool ads with Rudy and all, but that's comparing a "cold call" to a "warm sale". ha, ha....

Simply, We need to perceive we are a priority..We'll continue to champion.

I expect more than "status quo" from "my company"..:eyebrow:

Marc

the car analogy makes no sense whatsoever. Sorry.

All modelers are DSP units, essentially consisting of processors and software providing instructions of what to do to a waveform.

Both DSP hardware units in xt and X3 are 64bit architecture. The X3 has a higher clockrate. The software the X3 is running is a variant, i.e. essentially the SAME, as the xt where the models have been taken from.

From the perspective of Line6 the X3 makes a whole lot of business sense.

Maintain a single product platform by including bass pod models on a guitar pod.
This is effectively the same as the bass model packs you could buy for and load on the Pod xt.

What has been added for this model cycle is faster processor for more DSP headroom and some peripheral connectivity.


Since the software has to be ported for every specific DSP, the packs cannot be used without modification on the other platform.

But with porting, they can be used !!!!

With the X3, Line6 has once again short-changed the bassist community.
Just read both here on Talkbass, L6's own forum and many others the complaints that lots of the effects are voiced for guitar, that is that the frequency ranges and trigger points are ill-suited for bass.

Oh, gotcha. I understand. No comparisions, we kick butt. Deal.

I admire you for standing up for what you believe. I am not a koolaid drinker and so you know where I am coming from I submit the following.

I never like Line 6's bass offerings before working here. I was hired 4 years ago to do bring the LowDown combos to the market. One of my first questions was "Are you going to start the modeling from scratch?" Why? Because I hated the Bass POD and Bass PODxt stuff. I got the Bass POD bean from a friend to try out in my studio. I did not like it. I thought, "it is good for guitar players who need to record bass I guess". I had an SVT miked up and would mix that with my effects into a BDDI, so I just had no use for the Bass POD. Then I started working at Line 6 and beta tested the Bass PODxt Live. I got it sounding pretty decent and took it to a gig. Really nice church that I played at every Sunday. It is where Jason from Lifehouse came out of. I played there for a couple years with my pedal board and 73 SVT. I am a live sound guy as well as a bass player so I bonded well with the sound guy. So I brought my tweaked and ready to go Bass PODxt Live. I played it for half the rehearsal and just unplugged it and went back to my rig. Again, felt like it was cool for guitar players to get bass tone.

Well, the LowDown combos were supposed to be just entry level amps for beginners. Well, I pushed and pushed and when I took them to my buddies to beta test, much to my surprise, they were loving them. I thought they sounded great but I wanted to be sure I wasn't drinking the koolaid. One of the first guys I brought a 300 Pro to was Mike Elizondo when he was producing Maroon 5 and it ended up on more than half the new record. Jimmy Haslip took a 150 1x12 to an Alan Holdsworth and they were all "that is all you brought?" to which Jimmy said yeah and plugged in and blew everyone away. They couldn't believe the tone. My hardcore FlipTop buddy Jonathan Ahrens was the first guy I took a 112 to. We plugged in and he grabbed a bass and said, "Rich, can I tell you something before we start?" Of course. He said "I hate Line 6, but not just you guys, I hate anything new. My basses are old and beat, my SVT and FlipTop are old, my strings are old." I said, that is why I am here, if you help me it will be better than I could hope. He played for about 7-10 minutes and stopped and looked at me while pointing at his SVT and said... "I could sell those." Well that was almost 4 years ago and he has used LowDown on 75% of stuff he has recorded. Jim Anton (Jonny Lang) and Matt Nelson use the Bass Floor POD as fly rigs. Bass Floor POD is LowDown in a POD if you didn't know. I could go on and on with stories. Those amps being used by pros led us to develop the 210 and the heads and cabs for pro touring guys.

I can only influence stuff I work on. I wanted a clean octaver. You and guys in here helped me tell the story about listening to bass players and I was able to get in a bad a$$ octaver. It tracks unbelievably. So, one step at a time.

So, I am not resisting you. I just don't see us developing new bass models for XT. I am personally trying to push our gear right at the bass player. I think the success of the LowDown series should say something about our and my commitment to bass players. And again, let me say, I am a bass player only. I am not a guitars who plays bass or a guy who gigs on both. They brought me on to listen to and build stuff for bass players. I cannot talk about the future, but it is exciting. Hang in there.

Thank you for being frank and passionate as well.

Have you tried any of the LowDown stuff?

From the perspective of Line6 the X3 makes a whole lot of business sense.

Maintain a single product platform by including bass pod models on a guitar pod.
This is effectively the same as the bass model packs you could buy for and load on the Pod xt.

What has been added for this model cycle is faster processor for more DSP headroom and some peripheral connectivity.


Since the software has to be ported for every specific DSP, the packs cannot be used without modification on the other platform.

But with porting, they can be used !!!!

With the X3, Line6 has once again short-changed the bassist community.
Just read both here on Talkbass, L6's own forum and many others the complaints that lots of the effects are voiced for guitar, that is that the frequency ranges and trigger points are ill-suited for bass.

I completely agree. Read the above post for my take on Line 6 and bass players.

I will ask you as well. Have you checked out the LowDown gear?

But converts are made BY US ON THE FRONT LINES.. Not to detract from cool ads with Rudy and all, but that's comparing a "cold call" to a "warm sale". ha, ha....

Marc

Also, you lost me on this statement. What did you mean?


P.S. My current rig is an M9 into a Studio 110. If I need more juice, I take the preamp out into the house rig and send a DI to the board. Monstrous. :)

I completely agree. Read the above post for my take on Line 6 and bass players.

I will ask you as well. Have you checked out the LowDown gear?


Frankly, no.
My interest has always been in a preamp with modeling capabilities. That hasn't worked out as well as hoped for.

Then there is the form factor. A 3U conventional amplifier isn't what I would be interested in.

Build a great modeling pre and mate that to a class D power amp with a switch-mode PS, I'd give that a try. [/derail]


EDIT: You would have to compete in sound and build quality against TC Electronics' RH450... a pretty tall order... [/derail]

The whole "converts are made by us.." statement refers simply to those (i.e. "Joe bass player who currently has not or has not considered modelling options) hearing, liking and considering the possibility and benefits of Line 6 modelling (heck, any non-back breaking amplification options..) after hearing my tweaked-out Spector NS-2J---> Bass Pod XT Pro--> BBE 482i---> Hartke Hydrive 4 x 10 cab. I was just stating that the power and impact of actually hearing something vs. an add in a magazine or site is most probably more impactful.

Regarding the Low-Down series, No I have not tried. I would be open to this option BUT I to prefer the flexibility of a stand-alone bass unit offering many modelling options.. I want and am used to that flexibility.

I do appreciate the dialogue and, despite my perpensity towards lack of clarity at times, I do believe you have understood my passion and pride in using LIne 6 products.

Thanks, Marc

Frankly, no.
My interest has always been in a preamp with modeling capabilities. That hasn't worked out as well as hoped for.

Then there is the form factor. A 3U conventional amplifier isn't what I would be interested in.

Build a great modeling pre and mate that to a class D power amp with a switch-mode PS, I'd give that a try. [/derail]


EDIT: You would have to compete in sound and build quality against TC Electronics' RH450... a pretty tall order... [/derail]

Gotcha. I know where you are coming from.

Have you checked out the 450? How would you compare it to the Walter Woods?

Have you checked out the 450? How would you compare it to the Walter Woods?

I never had the opportunity to play a Walter Woods, so can't compare them.

I would call the RH 450 also a modeling (pre-)amp as the AD conversion is carried out right a the very beginning of the signal chain in the amp. Its DSP voicing is just not set to emulate(model) another amp, more like what Line6 calls their "own models", like the "Tube Pre" model.

My take on this I've tried to describe in this thread (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=576538)




TC RH450
due to the controversy about this product line, I was really curious... great features, I like the presets, the stereo headphone out, the tuner, nice enough compressor, but not really a compressor person myself, the tube emulation is ok i guess, but, But, BUT, BUTT I hated the tone :crying: no amount of knob twiddling from me or the stores attendants got me for instance anywhere near the SMax12 FET channel or the F500. Maybe I was fatigued by then and couldn't give it a fair shake or am just too dumb, dunno - it just reminds me too much of my Bod XT setup. The RH450 offers nothing really new for me, but it does it of course in a really nice and stylish package.
It's got a better resolution than my BODxt/KME setup due to the undoubtedly better components and technology, but it has that ever so slight lifeless and artificial sound which I'm unfortunately so familiar with.
It's very difficult to describe - jumping between the Shuttle FET and the RH450, the Shuttle feels more alive.
Enough of that, for more rants, see my BOD xt threads...


Conclusion:


For me it would be this. My sincere congratulations to agedhorse and the GB product development team, that's one nice amp !!!

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h193/OldogNewTrick/Schmidt%20test%20090828/btestSMax12GS210.jpg

but could be also quite happy with this:

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h193/OldogNewTrick/Schmidt%20test%20090828/btestF500-GS210.jpg


/rant over... carry on... :p :bassist:

The whole "converts are made by us.." statement refers simply to those (i.e. "Joe bass player who currently has not or has not considered modelling options) hearing, liking and considering the possibility and benefits of Line 6 modelling (heck, any non-back breaking amplification options..) after hearing my tweaked-out Spector NS-2J---> Bass Pod XT Pro--> BBE 482i---> Hartke Hydrive 4 x 10 cab. I was just stating that the power and impact of actually hearing something vs. an add in a magazine or site is most probably more impactful.

Regarding the Low-Down series, No I have not tried. I would be open to this option BUT I to prefer the flexibility of a stand-alone bass unit offering many modelling options.. I want and am used to that flexibility.

I do appreciate the dialogue and, despite my perpensity towards lack of clarity at times, I do believe you have understood my passion and pride in using LIne 6 products.

Thanks, Marc

Cool set up. What do you use to power the cabinet?

What models are some of your favorites? Which amps and which effects?

Absolutely better when a guy is playing the stuff out live. We don't do ads with guys that aren't out playing the stuff live. You didn't think Rudy was just posing in front of a LowDown but really uses something else, right?

I never had the opportunity to play a Walter Woods, so can't compare them.

I would call the RH 450 also a modeling (pre-)amp as the AD conversion is carried out right a the very beginning of the signal chain in the amp. Its DSP voicing is just not set to emulate(model) another amp, more like what Line6 calls their "own models", like the "Tube Pre" model.

TC RH450
due to the controversy about this product line, I was really curious... great features, I like the presets, the stereo headphone out, the tuner, nice enough compressor, but not really a compressor person myself, the tube emulation is ok i guess, but, But, BUT, BUTT I hated the tone no amount of knob twiddling from me or the stores attendants got me for instance anywhere near the SMax12 FET channel or the F500. Maybe I was fatigued by then and couldn't give it a fair shake or am just too dumb, dunno - it just reminds me too much of my Bod XT setup. The RH450 offers nothing really new for me, but it does it of course in a really nice and stylish package.
It's got a better resolution than my BODxt/KME setup due to the undoubtedly better components and technology, but it has that ever so slight lifeless and artificial sound which I'm unfortunately so familiar with.
It's very difficult to describe - jumping between the Shuttle FET and the RH450, the Shuttle feels more alive.
Enough of that, for more rants, see my BOD xt threads...




I haven't been impressed with any small Class D amp since the Walter Woods.

I just don't talk bad about other companies gear. But I must say that you notched up in my book tone wise with your review and what you like and don't. :)

I haven't been impressed with any small Class D amp since the Walter Woods.


Let me tell you, the Genz Benz Shuttle with its B&O ICEpower class-D module and the Markbass F500 with AFAIK a Powersoft Digimode class-D module are both truly outstanding amps, best I've played in a long while....

But then I also love my old Fender Dual Showman for clean tube tone and when the occasion calls for it that Ampeg tone.
Edit: Unfortunately got no original 60's/70's Ampeg to indulge that pleasure...


I love many different sounds for different types of music - I just have one absolute prerequisite - QUALITY.

Let me tell you, the Genz Benz Shuttle with its B&O ICEpower class-D module and the Markbass F500 with AFAIK a Powersoft Digimode class-D module are both truly outstanding amps, best I've played in a long while....

But then I also love my old Fender Dual Showman for clean tube tone and when the occasion calls for it that Ampeg tone.
Edit: Unfortunately got no original 60's/70's Ampeg to indulge that pleasure...


I love many different sounds for different types of music - I just have one absolute prerequisite - QUALITY.

Oh, totally. That is what I was saying, they are both fine amps. If you ever get the chance to check out a WW, you will hear what I hear. I can tell you know tone. I also love the acoustic image amp for a little guy.

So the GB uses the ICEpower? We original were trying to use that for the LowDown heads but we ran into some kind of gov't regulation with the speaker jacks and getting shocked. Do you know how long they been using the ICEpower?

So the GB uses the ICEpower? We original were trying to use that for the LowDown heads but we ran into some kind of gov't regulation with the speaker jacks and getting shocked. Do you know how long they been using the ICEpower?

Not really qualified to answer that one, but AFAIK, ever, from the beginning...

Could that gov't regulation issue have something to do with Line6 still using 1/4" jacks for high powered amps and not the CE approved Neutrik connectors?

I think that has more to do with hardware than software. If we come with next generation modeling and it needs a bigger faster processor to run it, it won't be downward compatible. Does that make sense?

And honestly, from a business standpoint doing so would not influence future sales of future products with hopefully improve functionality and tonal offerings.

Not really qualified to answer that one, but AFAIK, ever, from the beginning...

Could that gov't regulation issue have something to do with Line6 still using 1/4" jacks for high powered amps and not the CE approved Neutrik connectors?

Nope, and you just made me sad. The LowDown heads are only Neutrik, no 1/4" jacks. It is so weird. The LowDown combos have been number 1-3 in their various classes and I thought a 750 head for 799 was going to be a no brainer, and yet so many guys haven't checked them out.

...and you just made me sad...

Sorry, now I feel bad, that I made you feel sad :atoz:

:smug:, Seriously, truth is I haven't checked the heads out. I could have... when I did the mini test I posted earlier, they were in stock at the store. It just never entered my mind to check them out...

My columbus GC never stocked anything other than the combos as far as Line6 bass amps are concerned...all they every have is Acoustic, Markbass, Ampeg, and low end GKs...

I did forward and I am double checking. I think I clearly understand your question now.

Are saying in the future if we make some awesome models for new PODs will they be sell-able to the XT line as model packs?


ok, after all the off-topic banter, I am still interested to hear what's the official word from the Pod product manager(s) to my question...


Is it possible (=technically viable) to have future POD X3 model upgrades downward compatible to load as XT models ?

Since hopefully Line6 might offer new models of amps and cabs currently not available or provide revised and improved versions of currently available models for the X3 platform, I wanted to know if it is technically feasible to make the models downward compatible to the XT platform.

This might then be offered to XT owners as upgrade for sale. The continuity of platform growth through downward compatibility would not only mollify quite a few XT owners, but also assure prospective X3 owners that their investment will not become obsolete when the next product cycle comes around....

Sorry, now I feel bad, that I made you feel sad :atoz:

:smug:, Seriously, truth is I haven't checked the heads out. I could have... when I did the mini test I posted earlier, they were in stock at the store. It just never entered my mind to check them out...

No problem my brother...

Now that those last two sentences are interesting. Can you elaborate. Why weren't you motivate to try them out? Be honest, that is what this forum is about. I learn nothing if people only tell me the good, I need the bad and the ugly to make better products.

My columbus GC never stocked anything other than the combos as far as Line6 bass amps are concerned...all they every have is Acoustic, Markbass, Ampeg, and low end GKs...

Floor space is a premium for them.

Can you elaborate. Why weren't you motivate to try them out? Be honest...

I apologize in advance, but you insisted... my gut reactions, in no particular order, key words underlined...

Line6 is trying to squeeze yet another spin-off from the original Bod, how lame...
A downgrade from the original Bod amp models in another entry level product aimed at a guy spending his first money on a bass amp.
The form factor... 3U large lump... real serious bass amps are biiiiig, a marketing ploy for the newbie...

I am sorry Rich, all prejudice, I know. I am now aware that you remodeled the amp models used in the Lowdown series and that you feel that they are significantly better than the original Bod models, which are not living up to the considerable hype.

I just don't have a really good impression of Line6, way more show than actual go, no "pro level" product. Lacking substance.

And frankly, that song and dance you are giving me since August 24 on my original posted question, regarding compatibility for models between xt and x3, is not helping...

No offense intended Rich, I know the shackles corporate requirements place an a product manger (been in technical sales / product management for way too long) and I have been amazed at the candour you have shown in some of your post, so kudos to you!

I apologize in advance, but you insisted... my gut reactions, in no particular order, key words underlined...

Line6 is trying to squeeze yet another spin-off from the original Bod, how lame...
A downgrade from the original Bod amp models in another entry level product aimed at a guy spending his first money on a bass amp.
The form factor... 3U large lump... real serious bass amps are biiiiig, a marketing ploy for the newbie...

I am sorry Rich, all prejudice, I know. I am now aware that you remodeled the amp models used in the Lowdown series and that you feel that they are significantly better than the original Bod models, which are not living up to the considerable hype.

I just don't have a really good impression of Line6, way more show than actual go, no "pro level" product. Lacking substance.

And frankly. that song and dance you are giving me on my original post regarding compatibility for models between xt and x3 is not helping...

No offense Rich, I know the shackles corporate requirements place an a product manger (been in technical sales / product management for way too long) and I have been amazed at the candour you have shown in some of your post, so kudos to you!

Really?!? I'm a full-time professional working in the recoding industry & with signed, national & international acts. I see Line6 gear being used almost every day by my colleagues, and often, by myself. What would constitute a "pro-level" product to you? Just Curious- no ire intended. :)

My bass on my band's EP was recorded direct with a Low Down 110 Ampeg model running straight into the board. Sounded more appropriate for what we were doing than either my mic'd WT400 or the DI'd WT400.

Oh boy, have I ever set myself up for some stick. :eek:


Up front - in comparison to many bass playing pro's here on TB, it is debatable if I am qualified to even play the radio...

I am well aware that many guitar players successfully use Pods and other L6 gear. However it is notably rarer for a pro bass player to use a Bod for recording instead of going through a high quality DI or preamp into the mixing board. Much less will you find bassists relying on an Bass Pod (X3/Pro/Live/Xt etc.) for live performances.
I am not saying it's not being done, but they would be the exception rather than the rule.

Further, I admitted to my prejudice regarding the Lowdown products, based on the mediocre to rather poor models and effects of the original Bod xt series.

Be that all as it may, Rich asked specifically why it did never occur to me to try out the Lowdown amps when I had the chance to do so. So that was/is a very personal and subjective reasoning I have put forth.

As to what constitutes "pro level" anything, I apologize for the ambiguous choice of phrase... there will never be any agreement on that, be the subject bass gear or football players. My intention was merely to convey the connotation of "highest quality". For professional use, being something used on a daily basis for earning ones livelihood with connotations of highest quality and utter dependability under constant use. Still, today that doesnt really work that way anymore. If a professional carpenter goes into a home depot center and buys the cheapest hammer with a plastic handle, but uses this hammer daily (until it breaks) to earn his bread, that makes that $1,99 item a "pro tool".... or whatever.

Edit: Please refer to the Quality over Quantity (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562746) thread which has others explaining this better.

Oh boy, have I ever set myself up for some stick. :eek:


Up front - in comparison to many bass playing pro's here on TB, it is debatable if I am qualified to even play the radio...

I am well aware that many guitar players successfully use Pods and other L6 gear. However it is notably rarer for a pro bass player to use a Bod for recording instead of going through a high quality DI or preamp into the mixing board. Much less will you find bassists relying on an Bass Pod (X3/Pro/Live/Xt etc.) for live performances.
I am not saying it's not being done, but they would be the exception rather than the rule.

Further, I admitted to my prejudice regarding the Lowdown products, based on the mediocre to rather poor models and effects of the original Bod xt series.

Be that all as it may, Rich asked specifically why it did never occur to me to try out the Lowdown amps when I had the chance to do so. So that was/is a very personal and subjective reasoning I have put forth.

As to what constitutes "pro level" anything, I apologize for the ambiguous choice of phrase... there will never be any agreement on that, be the subject bass gear or football players. My intention was merely to convey the connotation of "highest quality". For professional use, being something used on a daily basis for earning ones livelihood with connotations of highest quality and utter dependability under constant use. Still, today that doesnt really work that way anymore. If a professional carpenter goes into a home depot center and buys the cheapest hammer with a plastic handle, but uses this hammer daily (until it breaks) to earn his bread, that makes that $1,99 item a "pro tool".... or whatever.

Edit: Please refer to the Quality over Quantity (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562746) thread which has others explaining this better.

I see what you're saying. And, yes, professionals often use cheap tools to great effect! I think I understand what you mean by "pro quality", I was probably thrown by your "pro level" syntax. :)

And, yes, I see significantly more guitarists using Line 6 products than bassists. But, you'd be surprised how often bass tracks are going through Line 6- either the hardware or (probably more often) through POD Farm.

With studio budgets continually being strained, I see more & more amp emulation occurring. Trust me, not every 'big time' studio release or commercial recording/ tv jingle/ etc.. is getting the royal treatment any more! 10 years ago, I could bring 2 bass rigs to an album session & get them both mic'ed up. These days I'm lucky to get a small amp through the door! And I'm not the only one- this is the new industry climate (For good, or more likely for bad!)

As to what constitutes "pro quality" is very subjective - agreed. But, I think, we could agree on a few basic standards such as: robust construction & road worthiness, better than average signal to noise ratios, desirable sound quality, and ease of use. Notice I used 'desirable' rather than 'good' sound quality. What sounds 'good' to player A may sound like crap to player B! But, the bottom line is, the tones must be pleasing to the user, engineer and target audience. I think that most of the Line 6 gear I have owned/used fulfills all of these criteria (Except, maybe, ease of use. There is a short learning curve to dialing in what you want. Plus, the presets have almost all been pretty useless to me- guitar and bass presets!)

I was chatting with a top Nashville bassist the other day (works w/ the Likes of Emmylou Harris, Elvis Costello, Buddy Miller, etc..) about his use of POD Farm. I've used both my X3 and Low Down this week for work. I even worked with a steel player employing a 4u rack with a Bass POD xt and Guitar POD xt for all of his sounds. It sounded amazing!

Just for the record, I've never received any compensation, discount or endorsement from Line 6. In fact, up until the current generation of products- I wasn't a fan! I quickly sold off my 1st generation Bass POD. And, given my druthers, I'd rather use 'the real thing' whenever possible. I am glad, however, that when I can't bring in the heavy guns- that I can count on great sounds from my X3 and LowDown combo!

I understand you don't like the Bass POD xt. But that in no way translates into Line 6 not being used by professionals. Sure, the professional bass world is finding less utility in Line 6 than our 6-string brethren, but that is a trend that is quickly changing!

I apologize in advance, but you insisted... my gut reactions, in no particular order, key words underlined...

Line6 is trying to squeeze yet another spin-off from the original Bod, how lame...
A downgrade from the original Bod amp models in another entry level product aimed at a guy spending his first money on a bass amp.
The form factor... 3U large lump... real serious bass amps are biiiiig, a marketing ploy for the newbie...

I am sorry Rich, all prejudice, I know. I am now aware that you remodeled the amp models used in the Lowdown series and that you feel that they are significantly better than the original Bod models, which are not living up to the considerable hype.

I just don't have a really good impression of Line6, way more show than actual go, no "pro level" product. Lacking substance.

And frankly, that song and dance you are giving me since August 24 on my original posted question, regarding compatibility for models between xt and x3, is not helping...

No offense intended Rich, I know the shackles corporate requirements place an a product manger (been in technical sales / product management for way too long) and I have been amazed at the candour you have shown in some of your post, so kudos to you!

Hey OldDog, thank you for enduring rebuttals. I accidentally opened you up to that. I thank those guys for their answers but they didn't quite understand why I wanted you to be open and clear.

I love love love your answer. It is this exact thing I am up against. I am trying to figure out how to change these perceptions. I have been working hard on this. You have taught me a lot in these paragraphs.

So, somehow guys think that LowDown is a spinoff of BOD, and as you said, it is not. So even when we go back and start over and do what is right for a product, we are still perceived as re-packing. :) How do we change that perception? I am with you guys. I HATED BOD. I have used the Detroit sound from POD farm when mixing a tune that has a DI and a so so sounding amp sound.

You saw it as an entry level guy spending his first money on a bass amp. BAM! you are correct. But what happened when I took the first beta units to friends of mine? It became quite remarkable. Mike Elizondo freaked and showed it to Mickey when they were doing the last Maroon 5 record and my 300 Pro ended up being more than half the record. That was in an article in Bass Player. I also got an LD150 to Jimmy Haslip and he uses it for smaller 200 people venues. Another buddy, Jonathan Ahrens, who HATES new gear and digital gear of all types has been using an LD150 for the last three years. I have many many stories of this amp line going all over and being loved by bass players that were not fans of BOD. Chris Cheney, JMJ, Terry Lewis and Jimmy Jam have an LD150 in each of their 4 studios. So I thought, I got to get a pro line head and cab out asap and then came the heads.

They are 3U because the power supply is not digital, only the power amp is. This was my first stab at a pro level product and as you can see in the banners, Terry Lewis (Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, The Time), Rudy Sarzo (Dio, Blue Oyster Cult, Ozzy, Whitesnake), Mike Bradford (Kid Rock), as well as Mike Longworth (Prong), Corey Britz (Gavin Rosedale), Tony Russell (Jay-Z), Tim Gaines (Stryper, Nashville sessions) and more.

So with all of this that has been out there for 3 years, you still have your perceptions. I wonder what I could do to change this. Not just you, but in general.

I love love love your answer. It is this exact thing I am up against.

I know what you are talking about.. :smug:

But let me tell you, you are doing a good job changing my perceptions... and I am not easily swayed. :D

They are 3U because the power supply is not digital, only the power amp is. This was my first stab at a pro level product and as you can see in the banners, Terry Lewis (Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, The Time), Rudy Sarzo (Dio, Blue Oyster Cult, Ozzy, Whitesnake), Mike Bradford (Kid Rock), as well as Mike Longworth (Prong), Corey Britz (Gavin Rosedale), Tony Russell (Jay-Z), Tim Gaines (Stryper, Nashville sessions) and more.

So with all of this that has been out there for 3 years, you still have your perceptions. I wonder what I could do to change this. Not just you, but in general.

Endorsements from professional level players is sometimes a double-edged sword, I think. Some people may look at that list and say, "Man, if THOSE guys use it, it must be worth considering." Others might look at the same list and think, "How much are they paying them to use that gear?" "Well, they may say they like it, but they don't actually use that on tour do they?" "My favorite musician is ______ and guess what? They don't use that. I wish I sounded like them, so I'll use what they use to live vicariously."

What further complicates this is that I think a number of people will go in and try or buy Line 6 gear and feel like they're only 80% of the way there, that it's missing that "something", and then equate that the product "sucks" when hundreds of thousands of musicians are constantly on an endless quest for THAT tone (which is usually just a reflection of themselves rather than the actual tone). Line 6, offering what they hope to be an inclusive package, could get hammered for each aspect. Where normally, "Oh, it's your cable" or "It's your tubes" or "It's your speaker" or "It's your phaser, man" or any number of things to "blame", the total packages get a raw deal if one little thing is wrong.

I hope Line 6 continues to make progress and offer solutions for any level of musician. Amps (especially tube amps!) are a holy grail. Breaking through well-founded and false stereotypes alike take time. Professional looking and sturdy gear speaks. Also, I think getting some more current modeling across gear lines (amps, pedals, etc.) will bring renewed interest. Even further, I think collaborations that allow you to create rather than merely emulate will tempt the curious. Make effects that people haven't heard before. Listen to everyone's complaints about why they don't like this effect or that, what it needs to have, what they wish existed and make that. The realm you work in offers the kind of versatility that requires most pedals 8 knobs to dial in particular sounds. Spending any amount of time in the effects forum, even on this site, should illuminate that market to you.

I continue to warm up to the idea of going to an all Line 6 setup. The more time I spent with the newest products, the more impressed I am. I will say that I enjoyed the Studio 10 more than the HD400 I tried out once, which felt "distant" and lacked some immediacy and punch (though, perhaps it was paired with a cabinet at the wrong impedance or something).

Just some morning extemporaneous musings or whatever.

...the HD400 I tried out once, which felt "distant" and lacked some immediacy and punch...

Interesting observation.... I've even felt that in the much praised TC RH-450 (IMLE) and of course also in my Bod.

I know what you are talking about.. :smug:

But let me tell you, you are doing a good job changing my perceptions... and I am not easily swayed. :D

Yeah, but I can't package myself and send me along with each product. :) eeeekkkkkk......

I thank you guys for letting me hang out. This is my favorite forum. You guys really know gear. Wish I could get more happening in this sponsored forum.

Endorsements from professional level players is sometimes a double-edged sword, I think. Some people may look at that list and say, "Man, if THOSE guys use it, it must be worth considering." Others might look at the same list and think, "How much are they paying them to use that gear?" "Well, they may say they like it, but they don't actually use that on tour do they?" "My favorite musician is ______ and guess what? They don't use that. I wish I sounded like them, so I'll use what they use to live vicariously."

What further complicates this is that I think a number of people will go in and try or buy Line 6 gear and feel like they're only 80% of the way there, that it's missing that "something", and then equate that the product "sucks" when hundreds of thousands of musicians are constantly on an endless quest for THAT tone (which is usually just a reflection of themselves rather than the actual tone). Line 6, offering what they hope to be an inclusive package, could get hammered for each aspect. Where normally, "Oh, it's your cable" or "It's your tubes" or "It's your speaker" or "It's your phaser, man" or any number of things to "blame", the total packages get a raw deal if one little thing is wrong.

I hope Line 6 continues to make progress and offer solutions for any level of musician. Amps (especially tube amps!) are a holy grail. Breaking through well-founded and false stereotypes alike take time. Professional looking and sturdy gear speaks. Also, I think getting some more current modeling across gear lines (amps, pedals, etc.) will bring renewed interest. Even further, I think collaborations that allow you to create rather than merely emulate will tempt the curious. Make effects that people haven't heard before. Listen to everyone's complaints about why they don't like this effect or that, what it needs to have, what they wish existed and make that. The realm you work in offers the kind of versatility that requires most pedals 8 knobs to dial in particular sounds. Spending any amount of time in the effects forum, even on this site, should illuminate that market to you.

I continue to warm up to the idea of going to an all Line 6 setup. The more time I spent with the newest products, the more impressed I am. I will say that I enjoyed the Studio 10 more than the HD400 I tried out once, which felt "distant" and lacked some immediacy and punch (though, perhaps it was paired with a cabinet at the wrong impedance or something).

Just some morning extemporaneous musings or whatever.

Awesome post Matt. Thank you for taking the time. Loved all of it. Two things.

1. We don't pay our artists to use the gear. We give them gear but we do not require anything from them. You could ask JMJ that over at his thread. So my question is, do companies still pay guys to use their gear? I of course mean apart from stuff like the EVH stuff and Fender. I mean, like the old days when guitar companies would pay guys to play their guitars.

2. I hear you on the effects stuff. Particleverb, Octo, Barberpole Phaser, and Frequency Shifter on the M13/M9 are Line 6 originals, it is us just starting to get into creating stuff that would take a bunch of boxes to make happen. :)

Awesome post Matt. Thank you for taking the time. Loved all of it. Two things.

1. We don't pay our artists to use the gear. We give them gear but we do not require anything from them. You could ask JMJ that over at his thread. So my question is, do companies still pay guys to use their gear? I of course mean apart from stuff like the EVH stuff and Fender. I mean, like the old days when guitar companies would pay guys to play their guitars.

2. I hear you on the effects stuff. Particleverb, Octo, Barberpole Phaser, and Frequency Shifter on the M13/M9 are Line 6 originals, it is us just starting to get into creating stuff that would take a bunch of boxes to make happen. :)

1. I didn't mean to imply that I think that. Like you, I don't know of anyone anymore who gets paid to use stuff. That's not to say that it doesn't happen, but I certainly don't know anyone like that. I only used that rhetorical question as if it were coming from someone who quickly and unapologetically denounces something without credible information. :)

2. Octo is entirely legit. I'm looking forward to trying out the Barberpole and Frequency Shifter. I forgot to try those and a few others when I auditioned the M9.

1. I didn't mean to imply that I think that. Like you, I don't know of anyone anymore who gets paid to use stuff. That's not to say that it doesn't happen, but I certainly don't know anyone like that. I only used that rhetorical question as if it were coming from someone who quickly and unapologetically denounces something without credible information. :)

2. Octo is entirely legit. I'm looking forward to trying out the Barberpole and Frequency Shifter. I forgot to try those and a few others when I auditioned the M9.

Oh, cool. I agree. I even do the same thing sometimes.

Okay, after all the off-topic banter, I am still interested to hear what's the official word from the Pod product manager(s) to my question...

I did forward and I am double checking. I think I clearly understand your question now.


Is it possible (=technically viable) to have future POD X3 model upgrades downward compatible to load as XT models ?

Since hopefully Line6 might offer new models of amps and cabs currently not available or provide revised and improved versions of currently available models for the X3 platform, I wanted to know if it is technically feasible to make the models downward compatible to the XT platform.

This might then be offered to XT owners as upgrade for sale. The continuity of platform growth through downward compatibility would not only mollify quite a few XT owners, but also assure prospective X3 owners that their investment will not become obsolete when the next product cycle comes around....

Okay, after all the off-topic banter, I am still interested to hear what's the official word from the Pod product manager(s) to my question...

I am back. Had a crazy month.

I just sent an email to the Product Line Manager. I will let you know.