I just joined my first cover band, had our first gig last night. It went pretty well, but there's something I noticed--they have a tendency to rush songs. Sometimes it's the drummer, sometimes it's the guitarist.

The part I don't get is that the guitarist told me when I joined that they were trying to work in more songs that people can dance to. While I was learning the tunes (playing along to the recordings) I noticed that most of their set it danceable. Come showtime though, they upped the tempo just a little too much so songs like Gretchen Wilson's "All Jacked Up" that has an awesome swing groove that just naturally makes your ass shake became totally un-danceable.

Have any of you run into this before? How can I approach the band with this? I don't want to be the new guy that just comes out and says "hey, you're rushing a lot of songs and wrecking them", but it's something I think needs work before the next all-night gig at the end of October (we've got a couple 1-hour festival gigs between now and then).

Patience. That's the only thing that worked for me. I finally got the band to realise that some songs were too fast and others too slow, and that the tempo's needed to change. I'd talk about it, but perhaps approach it with velvet gloves. What worked for my band was people (fans) complaining that they couldn't dance to the songs ...

+1

If their goal is to get people dancing informing them that you noticed nobody was able to dance because everything was too fast would open their eyes a little bit. I've gotten into the habit of taking my metronome to practice with the band and practicing every song through the entire rehearsal with the metronome. That way when we're actually playing everyone has a feel for the proper tempo and can adjust on the fly.

Record every time you play, and have them all listen to it. Then you shouldn't have to say a thing.

edit: ^^^yeah what he said^^^

Try video taping or recording a show. That helps alot. Even a crappy boombox set at the back of the room will work. Although, I have to say I'm a proponent of playing the songs a little quicker at shows. Even speeding specific songs up to make them danceable. I've filled in with some bands that speed them up so much it's hard to play, but they don't even realize it. I've also filled in with some bands that drag the songs and kill the overall mood without knowing it. It's a very fine line...

Lie. I mean, tell them that you were talking to someone in the audience who said something like, "Man, you guys play such-and-such song really, really fast! I nearly broke my leg trying to dance!" That could be a way to gently approach the subject. Also, bring a metronome. Know what the beats-per-minute of the original versions are. They shouldn't be upset if you're humble, intending to help the band, and fully prepared to fix the problem at hand.

METRONOME!!

Put sheet music in front of them.

Badum crash.

Seriously, though...record a show, tell them to slow down and have their friends in the crowd tell them to slow down.

Or, you go with the flow and speed up. There's nothing more awkward sounding than one player trying to play slower than the others.

Have any of you run into this before? How can I approach the band with this?

As always, it is so much better to join a band - or recruit members to form a band - that already knows how to play, and play well. :eyebrow:

Trying to "fix" a lack of musicianship after the fact is very often an uphill battle, and a thankless task. If these guys don't even realize they're rushing the tempos, then they're simply bad musicians. If they know better, but don't think it's important enough to fix, then they're sloppy and irresponsible.

Either way, it's a major red flag. Live and learn... :rolleyes:

MM

Playing at breakneck speed is not good when the songs call for playing slower. It is much harder to slow down a song that starts off fast than to speed up a song that starts slow. Why don't you offer to count off the songs and be the conductor so to speak?

Do this... Play the songs at practice to a met... And match it to the regular song...

You are playing with people that are inexperienced, and they need a lesson in groove.

Jehos-
Since you're the new guy, I wouldn't do anything until you've recorded your band. Record the next gig or rehearsal..... doesn't matter. Just make sure you get their version of this song. Then make the comparison and ask them if this is the tempo that they really want.
Lots of bands rush without realizing it and it takes some discipline not to speed up a song over time. Part of our job is to keep these guys in check.

I agree with mysticmichael. When players don't "get it" on some of the more obvious stuff, someone has to play the role of schoolmaster, and that's no fun.

Your band needs to come to grips with a couple of realities. First, there is a natural human tendancy, over the course of time, to increase a tempo. Just listen to the crowd clapping in unison at a sporting event, and how the tempo speeds up exponentially. For musicians to play a song at basically the same tempo from start to finish, they need to fight that natural tendancy and focus on the little metronome in their heads, a.k.a. groove.

Second, there is a tendancy that when you hear one player speeding up the tempo, you tend to join him/her rather than be left behind.

Your band has two problems. First, a drummer who can't resist the urge to play too fast and take the rest of the band with him. Second, a drummer who can't resist the urge to follow another musician who is speeding up the tempo.

Notice how the drummer shows up twice?

A drummer has to be aware of more than which skin or cymbal he should smack next. He should know the song, feel the song, hear everything, play to the appropriate tempo, and take charge. And when you have a drummer like that, the rest of the band has to trust him and not push the tempo.

Good luck!

Lie. I mean, tell them that you were talking to someone in the audience who said something like, "Man, you guys play such-and-such song really, really fast! I nearly broke my leg trying to dance!" That could be a way to gently approach the subject.

That's one way to put it. Or you could phrase is as a QUESTION. "While I was learning the songs from the recordings, I noticed a lot of them are slower. Did you guys decide to speed them up on purpose, or are we just getting excited on stage?" Good luck.

Anyone else think we're rushing the tempo or is it just me?
If they don't agree then just go with it and have fun. When you lose the audience you can join a new group.

It is the drummer's duty to preserve the right tempo. He needs to do his job.

It is the drummer's duty to preserve the right tempo. He needs to do his job.

+1. I am always amazed when I hear about drummers speeding up due to guitarists, or bassist, etc. The steadfast rule is for the duration of the song the drummer is right. I don't care if he changes the tempo, goes to a different place in the song, changes the time signature, etc. For the duration of the song that drummer is who EVERYONE should follow.

After the song, of course, the drummer may be wrong, but having several people fighting for control of tempo, etc. is dangerous. It's the duty of a drummer to be aware of tempo isues and know the songs cold. (It's the duty of the rest of the band as well, of course, but since the live performance is built on the drummer it's a bigger deal if he or she doesn't pay attention).

Play to a metronome. When they see that, by the end of the song, the timing is off, it'll be proof that there's an issue.

It is the drummer's duty to preserve the right tempo. He needs to do his job.

Yeah, if this was only the case. I don't know how many times I've had to take control of the tempo and get the drummer to straighten up after he'd turned the time around and couldn't even hear it.

At some point someone needs to take ownership of the tempo.

I agree that people who have never had much formal organized music experience (ie academic) won't get it and you can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink. It's fun to play fast and tempos creep up on stage in front of people. Record a rehearsal and then play your recording against the original and ask them if that's really what they want.

It is the drummer's duty to preserve the right tempo. He needs to do his job.

Although I kind of agree with this...IMO, You as the Bass player bear some of the tempo responsibility...What I mean by this is if the song starts out at a decent tempo, and you feel it start to speed up or slow down...take control and "stand fast"...make eye contact with the drummer so he knows what you are trying to do...

Having said that, sometimes if a song slightly speed up to "drive" the tune, that's OK with me...but when they just take off...thats no good.

Another possible solution (as much as I hate these stupid things), is to have the drummer get a Beat Bug...

It is the drummer's duty to preserve the right tempo. He needs to do his job.

I'm almost at -1 with this. Time is everyone's responsibility. The reason I'm not saying "-1" is that it's pretty hard to win a tempo war with a drummer.

It does ultimately all fall back on the drummer. My method is to sing along with the song. It helps me get the tempo right in the first place and keep it there. I also pick the prettiest girl in the audience and tell myself that I am _NOT_ going to let her down. It's more fun playing if there's a lot of pretty girls on the dance floor.

Convince the drummer that it's job #1. Get a click going in your mind. Mine hits me where my backbone meets my skull. Get the drummer to get Billy Ward's "Big Time" DVD (or get it yourself, it's good for both instruments with lots of great music with Billy and Andy Hess).

KO

A lot of times the adrenaline rush of playing a gig tends to make you play a little faster, but having said that, everyone needs to take that into account and focus on keeping the correct tempo. I agree with what some other posts are saying regarding it being the drummer that sets the tempo. Our band is pretty good at adjusting and staying in time with the drummer regardless if he is too fast or too slow. Usually it is me (as the bass player) that makes eye contact with the drummer and lets him know to slow down or whatever. You should definitly bring it up to the rest of the band, as it is very important to your overall sound. I think as bass players being part of the rythym section we are more in tune with the tempo and timing than the other non-rythym section musicians and therefore we are probably more vocal about that as a concern.

Some good ideas here.

Some other info:

- The band is fairly new. The guitarist had a band that fell apart, then he re-formed. The other two members (drums and keys) have only been with the band about a month longer than I have.

- The drummer is young, as in 19. The rest of us are 30+. It's almost certainly an inexperience thing on his part, but the guitarist is just as bad about rushing when the intro is just guitar.

- The whole band is behind the idea of wanting to get more people on the dance floor. Last night we were rearranging our set on the fly to accommodate people who were dancing (i.e. follow a groove song with another groove song instead of the rock song that was listed). I don't think it's going to be a hard sell, I think they may just be unaware of what's keeping people from coming out on the floor.

I think at our next rehearsal (we have a gig tonight at the same place we played last night) I'll just bring it up as stuff I've seen, phrased as "hey, I know I'm just the new guy and maybe I'm wrong, but here's something I noticed..." and avoid the blame game altogether. Even though you could pin the tempo on the drummer, the whole band (me included) is at fault. We're good at all locking in together, so if a song starts out a little fast, we all lock in on a little fast and it stays that way through the whole song. We definitely *don't* have a problem with tempo creep during a song, it's just that we tend to lead in a little fast.

Next question, does anybody know the BPM ranges most popular dance songs fall in? I know it's got to be pretty narrow, around the area of "Santeria" and "Love Shack". I picked those two because they both pulled people to the dance floor and had other people at the bar dancing along in their seats.

Time is EVERYONE'S responsibility, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER needs to be cognizant of their tempo and work to find a common tempo with the other players around them.

If you are having a problem with it, you need to bring it up, NOW, but be diplomatic about it.

Explain that you're only doing what you strongly believe is best for the overall sound of the band as perceived by the audience, and that constantly rushing through the tunes will only make the audience feel that something is vaguely "off" on everything you do. If anything strive to play the tunes TOO SLOWLY at rehearsals, because the tendency for everyone at a gig is to get pumped up and move the tempo up a few clicks on a metronome. I have used metronomes as tools in these situations to both show how far bands stray from tempo (usually speeding up) and to help correctly set tempo at rehearsals.

Learn to communicate with the other players on the fly about these things as well. My "trick" when working with the drummer that I'm gigging with now is to "lean" into the tempo to let him know where we are and where we should be - leaning back means "we need to back it down a bit, it's getting too edgy"; leaning forward means "this is turning into a dirge, man!".

I know you're the "new guy", but the fact is that as the bassist you have you finger on the pulse of everything that is going on, and have the best point of reference to relate it back to the rest of the guys you're working with.

Life is too short to have tempo wars or volume wars. :)

Santeria is about 90-91 bpm, and Love Shack is about 131-133.

There's some iTunes widget out there that allows you to click along with a tune and figure out the tempos. Or there's the www.bpmdatabase.com, but that's more for DJ beat matching. It had Santeria in it, but not Love Shack. I googled Love Shack.

One of the great pieces of advice on the Billy Ward video I mentioned above is to make the count off the strongest four beats of the song. Get the tempo in your head and click it off like your life depends on it. Like I said above, sing a bit of the chorus in your head to find the tempo. Take that extra second to get the song off on the right foot. It needs to be a priority.

KO

Practice to a click, play to a click.

I have had a much better time playing drummers who play to a click constantly. The tempos were always spot on, and you could still groove.

+1 but make it a gig recording.
Nothing says it like the raw truth.
Record every time you play, and have them all listen to it. Then you shouldn't have to say a thing.

Speeding up happens not just in rock bands, but there's also the problem of songs slowing down, and in both cases I have to put the blame squarely on the drums. It is indeed the drummer's job to maintain tempo, if not to establish it. I've played with many drummers who let adrenaline or nerves make them speed up. But I've also played with drummers who can't keep up with the tempo initially set and wind up slowing the song down, sometimes horribly. Once either of these things happens, what's a band to do but follow the drums?

I also play in a brass band, and I have to say that in this situation, there's a double problem. Technically, the conductor sets the tempo and, if he detects that it's too slow or too fast, the band should follow him as he adjusts tempo. Unfortunately, too many people have their heads buried in the music and don't watch the baton. When the drummers have their heads buried, it can lead to big problems, because those who do watch the conductor will follow the baton, while the rest of the band stays with the drums.

Lately my church band had been having the drums play to a click track, which helps, but it can also lead to the drummer being so aware of tempo that he no longer plays with feeling. Then we have the problem of a leader who thinks the song started too slow or too fast, but forgets that the drummer is playing to a click track and fights for the entire song to enforce his new idea of tempo. An ideal situation would be to have a drummer who is used to playing with a click track and a band that follows the drums.

<SNIP> I'm a proponent of playing the songs a little quicker at shows. Even speeding specific songs up to make them danceable. I've filled in with some bands that speed them up so much it's hard to play, but they don't even realize it. I've also filled in with some bands that drag the songs and kill the overall mood without knowing it. It's a very fine line...

Are you saying you rehearse at one tempo and perform at another? :confused:

Even if you don't play DB or jazz, all bassists can benefit from the wisdom of the late, great, Ray Brown:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8QazNAZjhM&feature=PlayList&p=3735E2C952356F35&index=0&playnext=1

Record every time you play, and have them all listen to it. Then you shouldn't have to say a thing.

tahdaaaa...


/thread

The drummer in my last band played just about everything too fast and we all of the band members told him to watch the tempo his reply was "that's how I play". He didn't even try to slow down. I think recording the practices is a good idea and also recording shows, because when listening back you can tell if the songs are too fast.

IF you're serious.. and everyone else is..

I have an mp3 of a shaker track.. it will drive you nuts.. 20 minutes of 2 shakers. starts at 60BPM.. pause +20bpm.. pause and so on.. PM me if your entire band will commit to going nuts with an ipod for a week.

helps to pipe in a click during practices.

bad drummer timing is the tougher one.. a tight band can pull a drummer up -- a loose band will get walked all over - stumped on this one.

T.

Playing even fast songs at a very slow tempo to a click track is a great way to get a really tight sound. It is incredibly helpful to really hear and connect to the bass drum.
You'll be surprised how hard it is to play a fast song at 1/4 or 1/8 of its speed and keep it steady. This is the same principle behind why practitioners of Tai Chi and other Chinese martial arts practice very slowly.

lots of good advice here.
+1 to timing being everyone's responsibility, or at least being worthy of everyone's attention.

Everyone should at least be able to play accurately to a click, but as a whole band, esp in a live situation, it can be a challenge.

Usually the speed issue comes up due to one player starting the tune too fast. One thing I have seen done in several bands: the drummer has a metronome with earbuds, and knows the desired tempo for each tune. Then he listens to the met for a reference tempo, and counts off the song, and the band goes from there. The tune at least starts at the correct tempo. that way.

One of the great pieces of advice on the Billy Ward video I mentioned above is to make the count off the strongest four beats of the song. Get the tempo in your head and click it off like your life depends on it. Like I said above, sing a bit of the chorus in your head to find the tempo. Take that extra second to get the song off on the right foot. It needs to be a priority.

KO

+1000.

The person counting the song in MUST count at the correct and EVEN tempo. Gets everyone started off on the right foot. Record a practice or show. The first time we saw ourselves on video, everyone said the same thing, "wow, every song is too fast."

It is the drummer's duty to preserve the right tempo. He needs to do his job.

It is one of the drummer's fundamental responsibilities, but ultimately it is everyone's responsibility. An extremely common misconception though... :hmm:

MM

If theres one thing I hate, it's being rushed in a song that's not meant to go fast..

1. Keeping tempos is everybody´s business. This should not be down to the drummer only.

2. Try get them "think in 16th notes" when they play the slower songs... This ought to slow them down a bit, as they realise how ridiculously difficult it is to count when the song speeds up...

3. Tell them to relax, and breathe. Being nervous will almost invariably result in speeding up.

4. Find out if they´re bored with the songs in question, enough to rush through them...

5. Experience. That´ll take care of it.

I just joined my first cover band, had our first gig last night. It went pretty well, but there's something I noticed--they have a tendency to rush songs. Sometimes it's the drummer, sometimes it's the guitarist.

The part I don't get is that the guitarist told me when I joined that they were trying to work in more songs that people can dance to. While I was learning the tunes (playing along to the recordings) I noticed that most of their set it danceable. Come showtime though, they upped the tempo just a little too much so songs like Gretchen Wilson's "All Jacked Up" that has an awesome swing groove that just naturally makes your ass shake became totally un-danceable.

Have any of you run into this before? How can I approach the band with this? I don't want to be the new guy that just comes out and says "hey, you're rushing a lot of songs and wrecking them", but it's something I think needs work before the next all-night gig at the end of October (we've got a couple 1-hour festival gigs between now and then).

I have always found slipping a few valium in the pre gig drinks helps a lot....other then that a few hand signals works for my band.....letting them know that they are rushing.......

I find the opposite.....dragging.

WIllieG

Anyone else think we're rushing the tempo or is it just me?
If they don't agree then just go with it and have fun. When you lose the audience you can join a new group.

In other words, feel free to keep coasting along to the inevitable train wreck. No need to insist upon standards of good musicianship - let alone consider the effect upon one's reputation of continuing to associate with these guys.

Because deep down, we all know that mediocre is always "good enough". And there will always be another mediocre band willing to take you in - no matter how badly your previous band sucked.

Yep, you're right: Sounds like an absolute joy ride to me... :rolleyes:

MM

How can I get my band to SLOW DOWN

BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!!!



You're joking, right?


Man... if my band played at the correct tempo, wouldn't life be grand?

Now where did I put that lottery ticket.........

I actually had a drummer try to convince me one time that he was supposed to slow down in parts that were softer and speed up in louder parts...

So what happened to you keeping the beat I asked...no answer. Keep in mind we're talking about run of the mill music you hear in bars by cover bands not anything special that would require different beats.

I've noticed just like others have said, people just tend to rush things. Especially folks that are not quite, ummm...mature in playing out. They get all excited and just rush everything. Definitely record yourselves...if they don't hear how horribly they're rushing then I'd find a different band with some better musicians....

I agree with those who said everyone in the band is somewhat responsible for tempo. Ideally, everyone should have the same idea of the appropriate tempo, give or take a few BPMs. Otherwise, when Speedy Gonzales decides to lead the charge, the whole band has a quandry on their hands: Pull back and sound like popcorn, or follow the leader.

However, there's nothing like a good drummer who hears and feels the song to tame those other band members who don't. And if you are lucky enough to have a drummer like that, everyone needs to trust and defer to him/her.

I agree with those who said everyone in the band is somewhat responsible for tempo. Ideally, everyone should have the same idea of the appropriate tempo, give or take a few BPMs. Otherwise, when Speedy Gonzales decides to lead the charge, the whole band has a quandary on their hands: Pull back and sound like popcorn, or follow the leader.

It's more than "ideally". It's essential. Settle for anything less, and that's exactly what you will get.

Timing & tempo are just two of the many issues that need to get sorted out during rehearsals - because that's what rehearsals are for. "Stampeding" should never occur on a gig. Ever. :eyebrow:

The bottom line: If the band is still in danger of becoming a runaway freight train, then it's not ready to gig yet. Stay in the woodshed and exercise some discipline - for as long as it takes.

MM

Speed up your playing ;)

In other words, feel free to keep coasting along to the inevitable train wreck. No need to insist upon standards of good musicianship - let alone consider the effect upon one's reputation of continuing to associate with these guys.

Because deep down, we all know that mediocre is always "good enough". And there will always be another mediocre band willing to take you in - no matter how badly your previous band sucked.

Yep, you're right: Sounds like an absolute joy ride to me... :rolleyes:

MM
That's not what I said but I guess you are saying:

In other words make working in your band so unenjoyable that you break up and never have any gigs. Besides there will be plenty of bands that can't stick together and have continued paying gigs willing take you in. Yeah that's fun. :waveshandoutwindow

If you are keeping the clients in and the club owner keeps asking you back, you don't have to be so anal it becomes unenjoyable.