When I was in Bass Camp this summer the instructor taught a new rosining technique. He piles on the Cello rosin then gives a good finishing strok or two with bass rosin. I thought "right" then I tried it an it works well you should try it.

Another tip was using a copper chore boy to clean the rosin off you steel strings. This is someting you just have to try it works so good. Make sure it is a copper chore boy or a brass chore boy. Now I clean my strings at the end of each session. You do have to give the strings two bowings in each direction at the start of the next session but then you just put rosin on you bow so no problem.

Joe

interesting...

i was looking forward to reading some of the regulars' responses to this, however, nobody has.

anyone?

Not many Bassists carry Cello Rosin. Also, it may annoy the Cellists when they see you borrowing their Rosin all the time..lol

Keep your strings clean, Re-Hair your Bow as needed and use a good Quality 'Bass' Rosin.. Like the rest of the Bass World does.

Also, use the Best Bowing Strings you can afford. This will make a big difference. Flexocors are the most common and not too expensive. They also last a long time if taken care of. A good Bow will also help and a good 'Bow-responding' Bass as well. Cello Rosin has NEVER been on my Menu.

i prefer cello rosin for solos, namely gustave bernadel rosin. this is the stuff Gary uses. lots of the other kids at camp used it for both soloing and orchestra stuff.

however, im revisiting Beethoven's 5th for an audition i have. at my lesson yesterday my teacher let me use his bow which is rosined with pops, and it worked better. Note, i was using his bass.

this morning, with my bernadel-rosined bow, and my own bass, i played the trio, and it worked well. i did do a swipe or two of pops and it still worked well. I am considering, though, getting some carlsons rosin for my orchestra stuff, but then there is the issue of soloing again.

what's a good way to get rosin off your bow? my teacher wipes is bow on his pants...is there a better way?

man, im rambling again...

Next they will market Gasparo D'Salo rosin. I owned a G. Bernadel bass in the 70s, b4 you were born. It was b4 the Bernadel-Gand era as it was Appraised by S.Kolstein as c. 1859. I don't think Bernadel cooked up any rosin.

You admit u need stickier Rosin to play the 5th. We did it last year. I used a Long 42"+ SL Bass with a fingered Ext (My Morelli) and hit all the notes and used Obligato Strings. Now that needs alot of rosin and the Obligatos need a little Bow pressure to play the fast stuff in that piece.

Cleaning off the Rosin? Whip the Bow from up to down a few times with the hair tightened. That will also align the hairs as well.

Gary Karr (if that's the Gary you are referring to) is one of the greatest Soloists on Bass of our time. He has not Played in a professional Orchestra to my knowledge or at least not since I was your age (17). Playing in an Orchestra requires the 'hi-test' Rosin...

yeah...the bass rosin works well on beethoven

yes i was referring to Mr. Karr...he's a great guy.

well, since i was just practicing, and it was not good...any advice on the fast stuff in beethoven? (i play german and my teacher plays french)

the above teacher mentioned to focus on speed instead of weight for it...i could use a second opinion i guess.

any advice?

This is also the Excerpt in the Simandl, no?

It is in 3/4 but conducted in 'One'. Count carefully and don't rush the first C pickup note. Relaxe and work towards a good smooth sound at a slower tempo first. Try it both in half and first position. the strength of your fingers will tell you how to start the Phrase. c-bcdgab-cbcdef-G....... First Position makes more sense but try both when you practice. It helps with the speed of your shifts.

There is alot of technique required to play this piece. The slower movement as well with the 32nd note slurs are best practiced in sections at a tempo you can sound good at b4 going faster. After every Concert I play, the first thing I think of is what parts I could have played better. It's not so much a science as it is feel.....Enjoy what you play as much as you can......

i dont own simandl, and dont think i ever will.

but seriously, the 4th movement is killing me.

What do you have against Simandl? It is great training for the left hand. I have Simandl and Bille. They both have their Metits but Simandl is more of a 'Boot Camp' approach. Maybe if you had gone through the Simandl, this would not be so hard.

With all due respect, Mr Smith...

I asked you for advice, and despite your best efforts, you have offered no real help.

I have been blessed with an accurate left hand, the thing that is giving me fits is getting the stuff on the bottom two strings clean...i think that has to do with the right hand more than anything.

also, i dont dig being told that i should have learned a totally different way than how i did. my teachers here have been pretty understanding in my not wanting to learn something that bores me to death. while simandl may have worked for you and many others, it probably didnt/doesnt work for other bassists...its like the whole german/french bow, standing/sitting debate. its all about preference i think.

I dont think ALL etudes are boring, i read down a new etude every week. I like doing that...i just think that simandl is dull and outdated (how long ago did he die?) but it worked for you, and you're awesome, i gotta hand it to you.

now, is there any REAL advice i could use from you? I suppose its not that important if you wont help, i was just seeking to learn more than what i learned already...

I am sorry to have wasted your time in trying to give some friendly advice. I never told my teachers what I liked or didn't like. I did what they told me to do. They play in the NY Philarmonic and it is not up to me or any student to tell them what's fun or what's boring.

Teaching Bass is not something you do by 'mail' !! I don't have a clue how your Bass responds to your Bow, what kind of strings you have or whatever. How can you expect anyone to fix a problem on line that you have not made clear and one they cannot witness to solve?

That being said, you can apply for a 'refund' if you think I have over charged you for something you never paid for.

You have a Teacher, so go ask him. He is the one you pay to take your teenage insults. Bye.........

ok...

my bass is a student model eastman...605 i think.
I have an unstamped German bow that works well...equate it to the amazing $150 bow that Bob sells.

I've learned mainly from soloists (unimportant south african soloist that ended up here, and Gary Karr)...but I really want to learn orchestra stuff. I dont 'tell' them what I think of pieces, or whatever. My teachers have been very friendly, almost like second fathers. They care a lot about my progress and they keep in mind that if a kid is learning boring stuff, then the will to learn fades. Gary always let us learn what we had musical concepts of, if that makes sense. I learned WAY more with that in mind than I did with the unimportant south african who made me learn, of all things, dittersdorf. it is a very nice piece, it just doesnt do it for me. A friend of mine, who is a student of David Murray, never learned the Drangonetti or the Koussy...she went straight to Bottesini after her foundation was in place. WHY? she communicated with her teacher who communicated back, and she LOVED the piece. why play something you dont love? how can you possibly make music if you dont love it?

I guess there are less problems in the Beethoven than i think there are. It actually isnt sounding that bad. I was just looking for, specificly, what you, as a professional, keep in mind right-hand wise when you are playing movements 3 and 4.

thank you

why play something you dont love? how can you possibly make music if you dont love it?

For the sake of improving a focused area of technique. I've recently started playing the sevcik studies, which are particularly dry, but improve bow control so much that it's exciting to see the results of 3-4 hours on the same open string exercise over just a few days. The only way to have enough control to make music is to have flawless technique. Just my 2c.

much appreciated, mccarthy

you're welcome, smellbee

Since you studied with Gary I assume that you are using less bow on the lower strings than on the higher ones? And as little bow as possible on the really fast low notes? That seems to work for me.

yeah, thats what i'm doing, and it sounds fine. It sounded really good today. I guess i just wanted to know what the professionals were doing...thanks

edit: I started using pop's on my bow again, i hope the scratchy nasal sound goes away when i work on my solos for this audition. I'm thinking of getting some carlson's to try as well.

Just my small thoughts, but the 'scratchy nasal sound' should disappear if you were to you less rosin and get your sound by using as much natural weight as possible. In response to your comments about boring stuff, it is completely essential to good musicianship to have the technique behind how you play. As a young student, you shouldn't find basic technical exercises boring or a waste of time unless you have already flawless technique. (Which is gained by perfecting said boring seemingly basic exercises) I am only seventeen but see myself as being blessed by having recently had the the absolute best teaching availabe to a bassist in this country (England). Not to be rude, but I don't see how you can remotely progress to the extent you are capable of, with head f**cking yourself like that. Before you make snotty judgements, I am not incompetent as player, and not just full of talk. I have an impressive cvbehind me, but I know that since losing fairly ridiculous arrogance and cockiness my playing has rocketed immeasurably. Just my 2c, but it greaves me to see the tone you take when someone offers advice, despite what you may think of it.

perhaps you're right...

i apologize for the 'snot' and whatever portrait of myself ive portrayed for you. I really actually think i suck, but thats not the point. And I dont not play etudes, i like etudes, i just dont enjoy simandl, and neither do my teachers...in case i havent made that clear enough already...thanks

The problem with Simandl is that he starts a beginner doing half steps and executing odd-sounding lines strictly in one position for pages at a time. I think Gary Karr is great for introducing shifting from the beginning. It's simply crucial technique for the bassist.

As a beginner who was required to tape myself while I practiced (to hear my struggles in all their glory and away from the instrument), I recall suffering from intonation problems and not hearing the lines well enough for my brain to tell my fingers where to be on the fingerboard often.

If I was a teacher helping out beginner bassists, I'd shy from Simandl so I wouldn't have to put up with having to hear that kind of stuff from other beginners either. I'd go for something that offered little nursery rhymes and such, things a kid would be more familiar with and hopefully hear in tune right off the bat...and ease my suffering.

Other than that Simandl rocks and I'm glad I started with Simandl first. Note for note, it's still the cheapest of all beginner books and if I lost interest in learning the bass back then I wouldn't feel so far set back on the cash-end of things.

For someone who wanted to learn to play as badly as I did and wasn't afraid to pay for lessons, I'd make the sacrifice...

Simandl is even cherished on the BG side of TB;

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1340749

and read here; http://www.talkbass.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1340761

and here; http://www.talkbass.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1340763

Simandl has stood the test of time. Let me know when Coca Cola or MacDonalds becomes out of date.....

thanks, i began with the Karr books. I got the book of STorch and Hrabe etudes the other day and i love them. They are really fun to get into.

You know even if you don't dig Simandl, Stuart Sankey's edition has some nice secrets he shares on alternate fingerings there (like doing 1-3-4 on whole/half patterns near the heel rather than 1-2-4)...and Zimmerman's edition has his own fingerings for the 1st mvmt Tchaikovsky 4 (too bad no bowings though...maybe I'm wrong with the fingerings too it's been too long and my memory sucks).

Oh yeah and you get to see a very young Gary Karr pose for Sankey's edition to show you basic posture and bow holds and stuff. Check out the nut on his bass in that pic...ebony and ivory living in perfect harmony!

yeah...the bass rosin works well on beethoven
yes i was referring to Mr. Karr...he's a great guy.
well, since i was just practicing, and it was not good...any advice on the fast stuff in beethoven? (i play german and my teacher plays french)
the above teacher mentioned to focus on speed instead of weight for it...i could use a second opinion i guess.
any advice?

You really need to work on the bow stroke independent of the left hand stuff.

Doing slow scales (like 20 repeated "bounce notes" per pitch) in the lower octaves of the instrument will really get your arm IN TUNE with the requirements of playing in an orchestra.

You may at first find that each pitch requires a different speed *and* weight to get the right bounce; keep going with the repetitions... some people need to focus on speed, some on weight, it depends on how your body works. Try both extremes, then narrow in....

My first summer camp was with Gary Karr. He opened up huge worlds for me and my bass playing, but still, a few years later when I actually wanted to make a living *PLAYING*, I had to learn a different style of playing. I was lucky to study with Gary's teacher, Stuart Sankey, the very next summer, and that gave me a bit more "reality".

Orchestral bass playing often requires an extremely marcato style, and a great deal of truly stacatto playing. Sticky, glutinous, non-Gary Karr rosin works best for this. Carlson is a decent starting place.

To clean your bow hair, try running a dry, clean toothbrush through the loosened hair.
Better yet, get a "solo" bow and an "Orchestra" bow.

kpo...i like your style...sorry ive been a jerk, all

while Gary is an amazing guy and an exceptional soloist, his technique is just not acceptable for orchestral playing. I did attend one of his camps many years ago, and his work on the left hand was very helpful; however, his talk of playing as close to the bridge with as slow a bow as possible, in an orchestral setting, is just impossible. You can not blend with your section and you will sound like ass.
Pops is great for orchestral work, if you raise your contact point so you're not on the bridge. But if you're in a high heat/humidity environment, pops may not be your best choice as it melts pretty easily. Carlsson I believe is a good choice for these environments.
I'm no soloist, so I don't know what to say about using cello rosin in that setting, but I have had bad experiences mixing rosins, and you can't really go in to an audition and ask the committee to wait while you switch rosins from solo to orchestral. It really just doesn't make sense to me to use CELLO rosin, when the set up of a bass is so different.

You might want to get your hands on some oak rosin. This has just come back on the market from being dead for 20 years. Do a google search for it or find the discussion in another thread. It is great stuff.

BG

Check this out:

There's actually a technique for rosining your bow that you should "study".

Instead of rosining your bow, try "bowing your rosin."

First, warm up for a few minutes, so the hair is warmed up and ready to accept fresh rosin.

Hold your rosin with the left hand, the bow in the right, and set the bow hair on the rosin right under the leather/silver wrapping. Now imagine that you're playing A Mahler Symphony and play a fortississimo Sfortzando, all the way out to the tip; really fast and tons of pressure.

You should get lots of little fuzzy "whisps" sticking out of the rosin cake after this, which means you've melted the rosin directly onto the hair, from frog to tip. You only need one, maybe two, swipes this way and You're Good To Go. :bassist:

You might even try this with cello rosin, to get a stickier grab without goin Totally Gooey.

WOW :D