On a couple of gigs my band did this summer that were fairly large outdoor venues ( anything around 300 people is big to us)we seem to incur an unusually large number of request from people wanting to sit in with band. While its rarely a bass player that makes this request, I still feel a responsibility to my bandmates not to make decisions on request to sit in without consulting them. Bare in mind these gigs were not jam sessions and no request came from any players or singers that any of us knew of or about at all.While I've always felt its important to treat your audience graciouslly these situations are always touchy ones. Past experience has not been very good, nine out ten times the sit in is not considered very talented by the band after the fact. It seems to me that these things tend to belittle all the work of rehearsal,set list, etc. Not unlike being reduced to a kareoke machine or something. any comments or experience ?

As much as you don't want to appear rude to the crowd, my feeling is that sit-ins are an invitation only occurrence. If you don't know them, then politely decline the offer. Obviously, if it's a private party, you have some political issues that come into play.

Ask them if they are so good, why aren't they gigging with their own band.

Chris A.:rolleyes:

This is mean,but it works...If I'm playing where I know there is a good possibility of a "sit-in" I make sure my fretless is ready and then make some excuse about my 6er being out of whack,"but you can play the fretless.." Usually that does it although sometimes it doesn't and either way( they are good or they suck)I enjoy the(side)show!

I wouldn’t dream of asking a band if I could get up for one or two numbers and hate it when people do it to us. (not just to play bass)
They are usually half drunk, or worse and normally show themselves and us up. Also when new people come into the venue and think the idiot is part of your band, and then walk back out after a few moments,...very embarrassing. We now don’t allow it.
I now normally tell them that Karaoke was last night and that we’re not insured to have non-band members on stage. Of course there are exceptions, if you know that the person is a reasonable player/singer or have seen them in another band.
Don’t you just hate it when someone comes and asks if you can “Put on” their favourite record as if you are doing a disco.

This does seem to happen more often at outdoor shows. We just tell them that we have a very structured show and dont deviate from it. Usually the person understands right away. After they see us they definately understand.

Brewer,

Where are you playing this weekend? I wanna sit in!!

Chris A.:rolleyes:

Hey Chris, Great! Anytime!

Actually we're opening up for Slaughter tonight (Sharky's in Nashua, NH for anyone near there).

I usually do not allow sit ins unless I know that they are competent players from other bands.

Besides, it's our band policy to not allow sit ins!

I never had to deal with it, but unless I knew the player from before, and it was ok with the rest of the band I would never allow it. So I guess it will never happen.

You da man, Brew!
I have the kids tonight, I wish I coulda gone. That must be cool. Let me know when you are playin', I'd like to check it out. I'm not playing again until the 30th.

Chris A.:rolleyes:

I sit in quite a lot. But then again, I know virtually everyone round here and they all know me...

Chris, where are you playing on the 30th? Is your band listed on newenglandrock.com?

This is a situation that has arisen a couple of times in the bar band I'm playing for now. It's of course up to each of us to agree to allowing an individual to sit in on our repective instruments, but the leader of the band has allowed several players to sit in on guitar that have frankly not been up to the task, and it bums me out big time. This may sound snobbish, but nothing can take the air out of a great gig faster than a cat that can't cut it sitting in. I respect his position, though. He's a great guy with a true love for playing, and sometimes he can't help but let someone sit in, because he knows that that person will get a chance to play with players at a level that he may not otherwise get, and that he will be positively affected by the experience.

But he's the boss, and I'm not. However, I would never hand over my bass to anyone who I wasn't absolutely sure could add something to our show musically. And the few local pros I know and would even suggest such a thing to would a) probably be working elsewhere anyway and b) have their own axe with them. Fortunately, there are an abundance of open mike nights in my area (every Sun., Mon. and Wed. night at 3 diffent clubs in fact) where anyone, regardless of ability, can sign up to play.

We've never really had this problem in the large Latin band I'm in as the music is very tightly arranged and nobody has ever asked, except one alto sax player who everybody hated and we turned down flat! We have invited some musicians to come up and take a solo when we have already known themn and they are in the audience.

But we have had what might be described as the "opposite" problem. Latin music has become quite popular in the UK and a lot of the local Jazz players are trying to set up bands to play this, as there are more gigs available. So we've had people coming along trying to "steal" band members and at some gigs we've talked about it afterwards and every single band member has been approached by the same person! So rather than sitting in themself, it seems that they are trying to take the whole band away to "sit in" with them!

Brewer-
My cover band is playing at O'Donnell's in Bedford on the 30th. Email me and I'll get you directions if you're interested.

Chris A.:rolleyes:

I just emailed you Chris. Talk to ya soon.

I feel very strongly about this very subject that unless you are in a band that is a house band that is specifically playing on open mic night and there is a sign up sheet or some sort of procedure to control drunks and flakes, that other bands are not human "karaoke" machines. In other words, anyone who dares to request to sit in is extremely presumptuous. Little good can come from the sit in because if the player sucks, he makes the whole band suck and if he is...heaven help us...superior to the band, then that sucks too as it causes consternation to the band member he shows up.

I have personnally only witnessed one time when I felt a "sitin" at a gigging band was worthwhile. It was one of Junior Wells' last concerts before he died. I was very priviledged to be present at that concert. Junior Wells invited Ronnie Earle to play who happened to be at the venue. Now Ronnie Earle is one heck of a blues guitarist and that was a fabulous sit in. The band played a soulful cover of Albert Collins "If Trouble Was Money, I'd Be a Millionaire." It was unforgettable. But Earle was a perfect gentleman and after that song, he stepped down from the stage and did not take over the gig.

But how often does something like that happen? Hardly ever.

Jason Oldsted

hey, chris

you know you're good when you've got a cover band, dude.

If someone asked to have a sit in with us, i'd shove the bass in their hands, sit back and watch the results, they've gotta be better than us :)

Last "gig" we played at was a place where you just turn up, say to the barman "can i play?", he puts your name on a list, and you play a few songs. we were the last band up, and there was a full house (about 200 people, but it's a start). got on the stage, lights in our eyes, no drummer (he'd stood us up :( ), played three songs, and then all we got was "One more!", followed by heaps of laughter. We hadn't rehearsed any more songs, hell, we didn't have a bassline for half the encores we played. We finally got off the stage to find out that our "music" had emptied the hall of all but two people, who looked stoned out their heads. Even the sound guy was takin the piss out of us.

Oh well, all bands start at the bottom, except those manufactured bull$hit "bands", like backstreet boys, and stuff.

later

sim

I'm of the school that says anyone can sit in, but you play Cherokee at 300 bpm in Db. I've been on both ends of this, and either you can play or you go home and hit the shed.

i've never had anybody ask to sit in on the gigs that i've played. i wonder why? ;)

then again, after our gigs, guys always want to try out my basses, which i let them. they usually want to have my amps off, though, can't imagine the reason for that.

No sit ins!. Period. Get your own band...:D

Thought I'd share my experience with this topic...

A few years back, here in Reading, PA, there was this guy known as "Dr. Rhythm". Dr. Rhythm was an older man with curly gray hair, kind of a strange, almost homeless look about him. He would come to shows of original bands at various places around town. He would bring a duffle bag filled with percussion instruments, some of them homemade. He would proceed to play said percussion instruments along with the band, usually standing in front of or to the side of the stage. He did not ask permission, he just did it.

Musicians are generally not confrontational, so most just let this pass. Dr. Rhythm, thankfully, could keep a beat. He would jam all night with the band, regardless of if the band cared or not. I never once saw a band boot him, and he played with bands I was in a few times.

Soon, everyone seemed to grow used to the Dr, and regarding him as a unique aspect of playing a gig in Reading. Sure it was weird, but nowadays many musicians look back on Dr Rhythm with reverence. Of course, those were the good old days, where there was a dozen places in town for original bands to play.

Sorry about the spelling in this post, BTW.

Cheers
Matt

man, that sounds cool! i would love to see him sit in with us. is he still around?

Sorry John, I don't think the good Dr is performing anymore. The scene kinda died out, and all of the places that he frequented have closed.

wow, i hate it when that happens. why are people so lame about original music? (rhetorical question, of course) :(

We're playing a small gig this afternoon (I'm just about to go down and polish my bass), and I think we're going to let a guy sit in and sing "Crying Shame" with us. He comes to our rehearsals, which are generally open, and asked if he could try it, so we let him. He did a good job, so we'll let him sing today if he agrees to hump our PA equipment out to the trucks. LOL.

If someone asks to sit in, I do a mini-interview to find out about his experience, then check with each and every band member. If it's unanimous, it happens. If not, no.

One last unforeseen thing. "polishing the bass" ... is this one of those euphemisms like "roughing up the suspect"?

I can't say I have a whole lot of experience, but in my (not so) humble opinion, you should allow sit-ins if the event you're playing is a free concert or jam or whatever. You're not getting paid, so it doesn't really matter if you put in the work or not. The audience didn't pay, so they won't mind sitting through one bad song (if the sit-in goes poorly). But if you're getting paid and the audience paid to get in... NO WAY! Once there's money on the line, you're supposed to deliver on certain expectations and you can't ignore them just to be nice.

I suppose that the tone of the request also would have something to do with it. If the guy's being a jerk and really bugging you hard about it, then he prolly just wants to show off and will end up ruining whatever song you try. Someone who asks nicely probably has a more realistic assessment of their own abilities and is likely to be looking just for a cool experience as opposed to an opportunity to showboat.

The style of music also makes a difference, I guess. Jazz and Blues are pretty open styles, so a sit-in would be easier to make work. Any more scripted style wouldn't work well with a sit-in, since there are probably certain things that the band rehearsed especially for their version of the tune that the sit-in might not know about or might play incorrectly. So that would be a no-go, right there.

furtim, whether the band or the crowd gets paid or paid to get in doesnt matter. my band has been honing its show and has ALREADY paid thousands of dollars on equipment, travel, and promotion in order to gain fans. We've done free shows but for the purpose of exposing new people to the band's hard-worked-on show. It has the member's blood, sweat, tears, and money sunk neck deep in it. Sorry, NO SIT INS!


Example: If someone gives you a free Coke at a free party, can someone spit in it while you drink it?

[Edited by brewer9 on 09-24-2000 at 06:09 PM]

In my opinion, one of the most valuable experiences is the experience of actually playing. If there's not a whole lot on the line and the guy asking doesn't totally suck ****, then I don't see the harm in letting him jam with pros for a single tune. But again, there are alot more factors that even I mentioned in my brief post than just whether there's money being exchanged.

Again, everything I say is purely my opinion and is quite probably a complete and total falsehood. =)

Hey, you're alright Furtim. I know what you're talking about now. The situation can be very different from occassion to occassion and money is nOT neccesaily the factor that decides the "looseness" of the event.

Maybe I am just an old fuddy duddy, but I just can't conceive of going up to a band and asking to sit in with them in a public forum. I can see it in a rehearsal that is private. But, what is the assumption of the person making the request? His assumption must be that he can play at least as well or even better than the present band and that his "guesting" would be entertaining to the public. That takes a lot of nerve.

I still am steadfast in my belief that bands are not human karaoke machines. Let guys like that form their own bands. Maybe they don't want to put in the time and sacrifice it takes to create and sustain a band, so they think they can just "hit and run" on someone else's band. I don't like it, but I admit I am a fuddy duddy.

Jason Oldsted

Having been on both sides of the "sit-in" situation, here's my take on it.

If you know the player in question, and he/she knows a few of your tunes, no problem. Conversely, if you know the band, and know some of their tunes, why not?

It's fun for me to let others set in, I get to hear how my rig sounds from out front, and can usually get some ideas on how to change my tone to better fit the room that way. Also it lets me steal new licks from them :cool:. The bassists I know around here have pretty much the same attitude about sit-ins. I usually tell them when I'm the potential sit-inn-er that I'd dig a chance to sit-in if they're cool with it and the band agrees, if not - no hard feelings :).

Another benefit for me personally on my new gig is that the old bassist has sat in a few times, and he knows all their tunes, many of which they don't have recordings of to let me hear and transcribe. So I've always got my little recording walkman with me, just pop a cassette in it, and now I got a recording of that tune to learn from :D. Not to mention it lets me go get a drink, or take a leak (our first set is ALWAYS 2 HOURS! :eek: ), or schmooze with the chicks (as long as the wife's not around ;) ).

Of course if the person is a jerk, drunk, or any other assorted neer-do-well, he gets the polite brush-off.

When I worked on Bourbon St. I let many unknowns sit in at my bandleaders request. Usually they were other bassists that were working the Quarter, sometimes they were out of towners. I only said "NO!" once, because the dude was OBVIOUSLY tanked, he wasn't touching my stuff, period. Never had a bad experience, but they were always other pros, and respected my equipment since they understood it's value to me. Plus I'm bigger than most of the people around me (6'1", 240, and at the time I spent an hour+ a day in the gym) and I'd guess they didn't want to p!$$ me off :D.

Sit-in bass players are rare in my experience. Absolutely let someone sit in if you know them and they know the material or if you are at a private party or something. Then it's good business.

If a member of the band can sell the person to me (played with them before etc..) then I'll do it.

(you'll love this next one...)
I am also 5'6" tall and have screwed my strap to the bass so it's how I like it. Generally, if the sit in wants to play bass with my band it's to their advantage to plan ahead and bring their own bass with them. Anyone taller than 5'6" tall look real silly playing my bass. Try and be an impressive bass player with a Jazz bass crushing your throat because the strap is too short!

Hey, an interesting side note would be the fact that when Jaco gotten beaten to death it was over him going into a club demanding to sit in. Hey, I wouldn't want Jaco sitting in for me either, in any band I ever played with. He'd make me look stupid.

Anyway, after my band hit the skids, I sat in with a few bands, but then thought that I need my own band and that people usually look at sit-ins as "wanna-bes".

JWC, you bring up a point I hadn't even considered in my first response...that is the point of view of the audience. Maybe one important consideration in deciding whether to allow a sit in would be the question...how will the audience react? If the audience might truly enjoy the sit in, well, maybe then a sit in (for one song) would be OK. But if the sit in would do little or nothing to enhance the experience for the audience, then find a gracious reason to say no to the request.

I once saw blues guitarist Ronnie Earl sit in for one song with Junior Wells' band and it was absolutely a wonderful experience I will never forget, but he had the good manners not to take over the set. He played one fabulous song, then left the stage. I salute him for that.

On the whole, I still am pretty much of a stickler against most sit ins, however. I believe that frustrated musicians can and should go to open mic nights at clubs and get their feet wet that way. Of course, if the request comes from a well established name with formidable credentials, then one would hardly expect such a person to go to open mic nights. If John Patitucci happens to be visiting your town, sees your band and asks to sit in for a bit, maybe that would be flattering to the band, though not necessarily to the bass player of the band.

Jason Oldsted

We are playing a gig New Year's Eve and are going to have the bassist for The Five Americans (the band that recorded Western Union) in house and have been forewarned that he wants to 'sit in' on a couple of songs.

The singer informs me that depending on how it goes, that I may not get to play much that night! :mad::mad::mad:

Oh well. :(

At least I'll still get paid.

I wish that I could borrow John T's doubleneck for the gig.

I would like to see him play that.

One of the 80s metal icons, Charles Wayne, from the Bullet Boys sat in with us once. It was ugly. He just jumped up and started singing a KISS cover we did. It is sad to see what happnes to stars when their reign is over.

Thankfully, I've never had to experience a bassist wanting to sit in and show me up, and I've never had the cheek to boot someone else out of the picture so that I could play. That sort of thing might have been alright for Jaco to do, but I'm nowhere near good enough, and to ask someone if you can get up, unrehearsed with them, you've got to be pretty sure you can play.

The two instances of people sitting in with my band have both been beneficial, though. The first was at a little pub in front of about thirty people. (The Beatles were the first ever band to play that pub when it opened, and we were the last before it shut, apparently. After such a good start, look how it ended up! :)) We had been told by the man who booked the gig his friend wanted to do a few with us, and he did. He was an amazing guitarist, and it was a really good experience to play with him. We did three songs - All Along The Watchtower, Wild Thing, and With Or Without You, and they pissed over everything else we did.

The next time after that was when our singer stepped down to allow us to play with another singer, and a lead guitarist. We did one of the singer's songs, and Columbia, an old Oasis one. Again, it was superior to anything else we did. A few months later, that became the line-up of the band I'm currently in...

I was playing a little dive in Little Rock called the Checkmate in the 80's, known for it's wet t-shirt contests and such, when we had the great misfortune of having Bill Lawrence (yes, that Bill Lawrence) sit in on guitar. I had only seen him in adverts for his pickups, but here he was, obviously impaired by some substance, we got through some blues shuffle and thankfully it was break time. He was a friend of the club owner so we were stuck.

Originally posted by SlapDaddy
This is mean,but it works...If I'm playing where I know there is a good possibility of a "sit-in" I make sure my fretless is ready and then make some excuse about my 6er being out of whack,"but you can play the fretless.." Usually that does it although sometimes it doesn't and either way( they are good or they suck)I enjoy the(side)show!

Ooooh, that's mean, but I like it! <G> It's kinda like smoking menthols just so people won't bum 'em off you.