Anyone have any thoughts on the new Edgar Meyer Bach?

Yes, Where did you find that recording? I've looked all over, didn't see it anywhere. :(

Well, the reviews are up on Amazon, and they are (so far) unanimously in favor.

Ok, I just ordered it, tell you what I think when it gets here. For me, so far the only one that has even come close to a good interpretation is Rabbath, so I am anxious to hear what Edgar does with this one.

Yeah, I just saw it at Lemur for $18.95. Man, the prices just seem to be going up and up!

The Cello Suites came today,I am listening to them as I type this. Omigod, the intonation is flawless,the recording quality is great. (A bit of distortion on the louder passages,(might be my lousy speakers).Edgar certainly takes a new approach on some of the movements. Different Bowings on the Prelude in G,also on the Bouree' and gigue,(I am comparing them to the Sterling edition that I use) and I never heard the courante played that fast!The 2nd suite in D seems almost introspective, very musical and well-concieved, like a glimpse into his mind.He says,
"There is a soulfulness to this music that I want to bring out. The Bass is darker than the cello, not as pingy, and it
is the moody quality that I wanted to emphasize." All I can
say is, Well Done! This is a definite must have recording!

I don't know, I am puzzled by the presentation of this rendition as a tour de force, almost as to excuse its lack of brillance and dynamism. My previous acquaintance with the cello suites are thru the interpretation of N. Harnoncourt (in 1963!). I certainly admire E. Meyer for being able to interpret the suites on bass, and for this reason this CD is interesting to me. But if I want to listen to, and share with others, the magic of simple joy and profound soulfullness of these pieces, I'd stick to the Harnoncout reccording.

I have many recordings of the Bach Cello Suites, and the one to which I always return is that by Anner Bylsma. I think I got my first taste of his playing when I lived in the UK, which would have been before 1983. I bought his Pro Arte set in the early 1980s. I know that he recorded the Bach Suites again in the early 1990s, and may have recorded them even more recently. Incredible performances! (but he always looks so sad (or bored, perhaps) when he's playing).

I was discussing the Bach Suites with my teacher, and he mentioned that they sit much better on the 'cello (being tuned in 5ths) than they do the bass. This recording which you're discussing, might the performer be using a 'cello tuning? [ ...murmurs of "...heresy! ...burn the witch!"] - well, I only asked...

- Wil

Well, I just ordered it from amazon.com - ~$15 inc shipping. Thanks for the heads-up, chaps! Isn't The InterNet wonderful! Uh oh! here come de boss fella now - back to the salt-mine... :<

- Wil

Originally posted by olivier
I don't know, I am puzzled by the presentation of this rendition as a tour de force, almost as to excuse its lack of brillance and dynamism. My previous acquaintance with the cello suites are thru the interpretation of N. Harnoncourt (in 1963!). I certainly admire E. Meyer for being able to interpret the suites on bass, and for this reason this CD is interesting to me. But if I want to listen to, and share with others, the magic of simple joy and profound soulfullness of these pieces, I'd stick to the Harnoncout reccording.
OLLIE, I respect your opinion, and you're welcome to it. I have also heard the Harnoncourt versions, they just don't move me as much. I like the new approach that Meyer is trying, even though I don't completely agree with all of his interpretations,it is nice to hear something different.
Speaking of something different, who is Anner Bylsma? I never heard that name before today. Are those recordings out of Print?

Originally posted by reedo35
...who is Anner Bylsma? I never heard that name before today. Are those recordings out of Print? [/B]

http://www.shriverconcerts.org/oldseason/Bylsma.html

- Wil

Originally posted by Wil Davis

I was discussing the Bach Suites with my teacher, and he mentioned that they sit much better on the 'cello (being tuned in 5ths) than they do the bass. This recording which you're discussing, might the performer be using a 'cello tuning? [ ...murmurs of "...heresy! ...burn the witch!"] - well, I only asked...

- Wil [/B]
Meyer uses Solo tuning A E B F#. My old teachers also used
to say that they sit better on the Cello than on Bass, that's why the Edition that I used was The Sterling, a Fifth down from the original key. But many Bassists today are breaking with tradition, just to prove it can be done, I suppose...

I was under the Impression that Meyer used the tuning E(with extention)B E A

Andrew

I'm under the same impression, although he tuned the extension down to B for the 5th suite.

Which I find odd. I always thought the first two suites worked better in orchestra tuning, seeing as how they're in G Major and D minor respectively, and you at least get the repose of an occasional harmonic.

I suppose I could listen more carefully and see when the harmonics come up and establish tuning that way, but if he stuck with his peculiar tuning for those suites then I'd really have to wonder why. Playing the Suites on the cello is hard enough. Playing them on the bass is worse. Playing them on the bass in an unsympathetic tuning is just plain dumb.

As far as playing the Suites, I use the same Fournier edition that I used to learn them on the cello (well, started to learn, but that's a long story). I'm extremely tempted to get the Barenreiter set although I have every faith in the Magdelena's bowing variations as being historically correct. I've gotten so tired of bass transcriptions of pieces just gutting the character of pieces, and I don't want to transpose from a bass edition if I want to play a suite in its *original* key. I already have to do all sorts of crap to my copies of Bruch's "Kol Nidrei" and Rachmaninoff's "Vocalise" and have half a mind to buy the cello editions so I may decide for myself what can and can't be done. Being an ex-cellist gives one a rather haughty and fatalistic view of bass transcriptions.

I suppose the reason I don't like transcriptions of the Suites isn't because I entertain any notion of "fidelity" to the key of the music (something which Bach certainly didn't do) but just because I'm so used to hearing them in their original keys that different ones sound "wrong". I think I could see dropping the fourth one to D Major just to make it possible, although I'll have to get past the first three before I'll decide on that.

I have a feeling like Bach has composed these suits for Meyer..

You said they fit better in orchestra tuning, but here's something very few people notice:
Meyer is playing up a step.
I listened to Yo-Yo Ma, then Meyer, then Ma and I realized he was playing them up. Think about the ascending scale at the end of the Prelude (Suite 1) and you'll see that playing them the same as orchestra just with solo strings is the only way. Heck.. the stretch of an eleventh sucks normally....(from the D half-string harmonic to the 2nd octave g harmonic)

Also about the suites:
I'm a Bach suite-a-holic. I loved 1 when I played it from memory at a recital, and it entranced me to the others. The one thing that I love most of all is to play them at pitch. When you lower the suites, it loses character and becomes far more lumbering. Especially suite number 3, play at pitch, can blow you away. The only problem with 3 is the speed of the courante, and the opening prelude with very awkard hand positions in order to achieve something that was written for an instrument in fifths.

The whole fun of playing the suites is so that you can enjoy the simplistic beauty without any other instrument getting in your way.

I'm a couple months late here, but I just wanted to say that I got this for christmas this year, and WOW. Flawless intonation and great performance of each piece. I was very, very impressed.

The best part of it all is that he makes his bass sound like a cello (except of course when he drops down to the lower notes, like the D# in #1, prelude). Amazing, at least to a double bass/bow novice like me.

Edit: D#, not C#, because of the whole-step transposition.

Like wise WOW the best I have ever listened too! I gave it to me for Christmas and I listened to it 4 times yesterday I would be listening to it now but my computer speekers at work can't handel it.

WOW!
Joe

Harnoncourt was the first to make a version on baroque cello, it was a revolution and a scandal.
I was born long after he recorded it, and listened
to it when I was quite young. It seems he likes
exageration.

I heard Anner Bylsma in concert and didn´t like
that much 1st and 4th, but his interpretation of
Suite No.5 was a moment of pure emotion, beautiful sound, something you just can´t imagine
if you weren´t there that day.

Anner Bylsma is a great Dutch Baroque cellist,
he made many excellent recordings of chamber music. I didn´t hear his recording of the Suites, but
they all love it.

Heard Peter Whispelwey in concert. That young Dutch star of Baroque and modern cello pretends
to freedom, dream, knowledge, etc...
new values for modern interprets.
He achieves very high quality in his interpretation of the Suites, but I feeled rather irritated.
One who pretends to play more or less everything,
making an exagerated number of records and recitals will be exposed to scepticism. I recognize his talent and should know him better.
As for a modern artist I still prefer violinist Gidon Kremer.

I´m fascinated with the technical quality of the version of Edgar Meyer, which I consider a revolution in the history of DB.
Anyway, I would say his taste is somewhat American way, practical... It doesn´t meet
so much my own taste. Very nice, beautiful, but I like other qualities too.
In that way I still prefer Harnoncourt and Bylsma.

Listen to Scodanibbio for the sound of solo-bass
(sorry guys, he´ll probably never play Bach !).
I mean : listen to his own solo studies for an incredible sound of the DB.

Originally posted by reedo35

Meyer uses Solo tuning A E B F#. My old teachers also used
to say that they sit better on the Cello than on Bass, that's why the Edition that I used was The Sterling, a Fifth down from the original key. But many Bassists today are breaking with tradition, just to prove it can be done, I suppose...

AAAAuuugh! Don't use the Sterling, it's rife with errors! Heck, don't use *any* "editions"!

Use the original. There's an "International" brand publication edited by "Kurtz" that includes the Anna Magdelena "original" manuscript and on each facing page a cleaned up edited version. That way you can see the original and decide how much of the editor's view you agree with.
You can also then choose to play it at pitch, or just insert a new clef if you want to transpose a suite - like with the third suite, many bassists play it in G. Just read from the original, but read it as though there were a tenor clef sign there instead of bass clef, and viola!, G major.

As far as recordings, Gary gets a few things right, Edgar is brilliant in most places, really adding a lot of excitement in places that cellists can't, When did Mr Meyer come out of this shell?) but I whole-heartedley agree with the Anner Bylsma recommendations. You can usually find his suite recordings in the bargain bin, too! I found my copy in the bargain bin at Borders!

There is a Casals version of these reissued on CD no one has mentioned yet.

I enjoy many aspects of the several DB interpretations I own, but this Casals version really defines the suites for me. It is, of course, a very cellistic approach.

A DEFINITE add for the CD collection of anyone really interested in these works. Recording quality in the re-engineered CD release is not too bad, considering, but the playing is so amazing I find it easy to just "listen through" the recording quality. This man had lived and breathed the suites for many decades before these recording were made. Heaven on earth.

As a bassist, I love Meyer's version of the Suites, but I also acquired Janos Starker's most recent recording of the full set of cello suites at about the same time that Edgar's recording came out. I find it difficult to listen to E.M. after hearing Starker play this music; it just isn't in the same ball-park! Starker has recorded the suites many times, and in the notes to his latest effort he mentions that his physical ability is failing (as he nears age 80) even as his artistic ability continues to grow. Even with the (rare) occasional clam, the Starker recording is absolutely thrilling, and is the one from which I like to learn the movements on which I'm working (what can I say, my bass is in orchestra tuning and Edgar's version is in solo).
Which is not to say that the best bassists can't compete with the best cellists, but rather that it seems awkward to compare the two...even though we often play the same music, we are apples and oranges, after all...

Just bought the CD and found the sheet music on the web for cello.

Should one even attempt to learn a few things from this in regular tuning? EADG? It was mentioned previously EM used a special tuning EBAE with an extension.

Have taken lessons for 6 months and continue to, but maybe getting a little over my head here? Very nice to have a recording and know what something should sound like without any accompaniment.

Thanks.

Most of the suites are usually transposed to other keys when performed on the bass, or played at pitch (meaning an octave higher than how you'd normanlly read and play something on the bass). Edgar Meyer's tuning is his personal idiosyncracy. It's perfectly alright to use regular 4ths tuning.

SleeperMan,
Long ago, my first teacher made me work on some of the movements from the G-major suite when I had only been playing for about 6 months, and it made me hate the bass and life in general. That doesn't mean don't try it yet, but be realistic. In the notes to the same Edgar Meyer recording, he mentions using the suites to develop his technique by playing them verrrry slowly with a metronome and very gradually increasing the tempo.
And about the tuning: even when someone's in solo tuning, they're still all in fourths (unless they are EM with his strange high-low tuning), so forge ahead. You too can experience the thrill of solo strings someday, but it is your ears (and bow) that will notice it, not your fingers; everything else is the same. I sometimes like to practice the suites along with a recording, in the same manner that one learns to play jazz, and until I get really adventurous and transpose them up a whole step I can't do it with the EM recording.

i'm not sure how an extension fits into the EBAE tuning you speak of e.m. using. i think the tuning he commonly uses is DBEA, with the long 4th and solo strings 1-3. still, for playing the suites, my ears tell me he used a host of tunings, perhaps different ones for different movements within a suite (which incidently would make performing a whole suite impractical - movement, retune, movement, retune etc.).

sean p

I sometimes like to practice the suites along with a recording, in the same manner that one learns to play jazz, and until I get really adventurous and transpose them up a whole step I can't do it with the EM recording.

it can be done with Transcribe!, a shareware available at http://www.seventhstring.demon.co.uk/xscribe/

I don't think it really matters wether the suites are played in original key or 5th down to get a good character. Somehow I feel it's better to play 5th low version because it's more bass and then you're playing it on the same register on the neck as if you were to play it on cello. But Meyer is great, I love his version, so pure and his virtuosity is only there to show the music, not the man.

I found the International publication (no. 805 - edited by Kurtz - orange cover) with the original manuscript. Dave's Bach website claims that the 1984 publication has many errors. Was a later, corrected version ever published?

Edgar rocks.

Owen Lee's recording of Bach 3rd and 5th Suites also has gotten a lot of praise. Amazon.com carries it.

I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned the historic Pablo Casals recordng of all of the suites. Casals recorded them in the 1930's, I think, and although there is some hiss and the sound is a little rough, you mustn't miss those great interpretations. The sound on the CD's is clearer than the LP version was, anyway.
Through my teacher, Julius Levine, I learned how to make the implied polyphony speak out in the wonderfully crafted single-line music.
In modern recordings, I prefer Yo Yo Ma.

Hi all,

I'm becomming obsessed with the cello suites! I have the following recordings on bass:
Edgar Meyer
Mark Bernat
Gary Karr

What other bass recordings exist?

Thanks, Chris

French bassist Bernard Salles recorded, I think, 1st, 2nd and 4th.

I prefer cellists.

... as brilliant as Edgar is, I prefer Gary Karr's recording of the cello suites. Comparatively, to me there's an intimate, realistic quality to the Karr recording that I prefer. There's no doubting that Gary's playing bass, too. If you wanna sound like a cello, why not take up cello? Don't take a knife to a gunfight...

I like the suites better on bass. Having lots of power on the low end is tremendously magical to this bass player's ears.

Besides, I lost my Meyer recording and now only have the Karr...

Hi Damon,
I also prefer the sound of the suites on Bass to Cello.

I listen to all three of the bass recordings I have and find that my favourite varies from day to day and week to week.

Sometimes I prefer the aboslute perfection and virtuosity of the Meyer disc. The recording quality is wonderful and his intonation is perfect (to my ear) thorugh the entire recording. I find the faster movements particularly uplifting.

The Karr recording really makes me think I am sitting there with him listening to him play. I think he mentions in the liner notes that it was recorded in a room in his home. Of course, this doesn't give the high quality sound as in Meyer's studio recording and the occasional intonation slips also make it through (I don't know if they didn't happen with the Meyer recording or they were "fixed" later). This recording is very expressive throughout.

The Bernat recordings allow an amzaing depth of feeling to come through. I find the minor sections especially expressive and feel an overwhelming sadness - in a good way - when listening to them. The recording quality is good but the intonation problems in #1 sometimes really bother me while other times I hardly notice. He also transposes them (for e.g. #1 is in A and I am accustomed to hearing it in G) which is surprisingly hard for me to get used to.

I'm looking forward to hearing any other Bass versions I can find as well.

My $.02

Chris

Well, you can buy the Bernard Salles version. I'm not a specialist of
Bach on the bass, I can't tell you if it's better or worse than other versions, I'm sure it's interesting. François Rabbath was possibly the first bassist to record it, if you find that old LP it must be something !

German Gerd Reinke made his own version... DON'T BUY ! Well, I had the chance to hear that CD once, we all laughed a lot. There is no more question about difficult intonation in challenging passages, in this case you hear only bad technique, no music at all, no intonation and even MISSING notes. Please don't buy that ****. Painful. :crying:

I have recordings of the cello suites by Pablo Casals, Yo-yo Ma, Jano Starker, Rostopovitch, Bylsma, Wispelway, all are great, but my favorite of the moment is by Italian Cellist Paolo Beschi. A friend introduced me to this recording and it has become my favorite. Highly recommended.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000F1S4/qid=1101560583/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl15/002-5936742-9632812?v=glance&s=music&n=507846

i have his cd of 3 suites, and i love it! he is so perfect, and never hits a wrong note, not even a scratchy sound or squeak... how does he do it? i want to be like him...
BTW suite 2 is my favorite. im currently playing it now, but not very well.

Someone here suggested that Edgar used digital editing to clean up his intonation for the Suites, but I heard him play the first suite live, and I'm here to tell you, he didn't need no stinkin' Pro Tools.

As far as interpretation, I feel that Bach has a certain inevitable, mathematical beauty that can be spoiled if tampered with too much with dynamics, vibrato, rubato-esque tempi. For that the technical dazzlement, Edgar never lets you forget who's the real star here.

Of course, this doesn't give the high quality sound as in Meyer's studio recording

A minor point: Edgar's version was recorded in a concert hall (albeit an empty one--not at a live performance, in other words). One nit-picky review criticised the sound quality for this reason, but you know critics.

Although I haven't really explored many of Yo-Yo Ma's recordings of the suites, a friend of mine played me his recording of the first movement of the d-minor suite (without telling me who it was) and I was stunned. It was like an entire epic novel had been presented in the space of two pages of music, how I don't know (although the techniques at his disposal included a less-than-straight interpretation of the text, which is fine with me considering no autograph manuscript of the suites exists and, after all, we're fooling ourselves when we think that a kind of metronomic and flat approach to Bach's strings of sixteenth notes is in some way "authentic"). Ma's sound is a little too perfect for me (I like hearing Starker scratch a bit and Fournier slop his slurs every now and then), but I would recommend checking this out.

Meyer uses Solo tuning A E B F#. My old teachers also used
to say that they sit better on the Cello than on Bass, that's why the Edition that I used was The Sterling, a Fifth down from the original key. But many Bassists today are breaking with tradition, just to prove it can be done, I suppose...

He plays a sub-contra B during the Prelude and the Courante of No. 5 (He played No. 5 in B minor instead of C minor).

I love his interpretation of the Bach Cello Suites! Just listened to the CD for the first time last night. It is incredible! IMO

German Gerd Reinke made his own version... DON'T BUY ! Well, I had the chance to hear that CD once, we all laughed a lot. There is no more question about difficult intonation in challenging passages, in this case you hear only bad technique, no music at all, no intonation and even MISSING notes. Please don't buy that ****. Painful. :crying:

This album is laughably horrible! I got it years ago for $10, around the time he signed his bar bill in Israel "Adolf Hitler" and was rightly fired and blacklisted. I couldn't tell if all the bad reviews were more about that situation until I heard it. Wow! It is really horrid. It isn't like a few notes "questionable" like in an english, catty Double Bassist(RIP!) review but like he has no freaking sense of this or any music.
It is really worth hearing it so terrible. You can't even imagine how bad it can be without hearing it.

He plays a sub-contra B during the Prelude and the Courante of No. 5 (He played No. 5 in B minor instead of C minor).

I love his interpretation of the Bach Cello Suites! Just listened to the CD for the first time last night. It is incredible! IMO

David, why are you always bringing up like four year old threads?