Hey all,

I'm just posting this to say that if anybody has questions about live sound and dealing with sound people, I will be happy to try to answer them from a sound person's perspective. I have 10 years experience in live sound, tour management and sound system design. If there's interest maybe I can develop a FAQ about it.
cheers!

What do you do when the soundman insists on miking your amp instead of going DI (because of a ground problem they claim to have with the in house system) and then asks you to turn down so low that you effectively have no stage reference?

Why don't soundmen use their ears?

Ex 1 Sound Desk Attendant bullies the drummer and I to turn down lower and lower instead of giving the singer a mic that works.

Ex2 SDA mutes the bass (not mine) and forgets to put it back on. I was standing 3ft from the desk and congratulated the SDA for eliminating bass.

Ex3 SDA shouts at me to turn down whilst the band were playing and I was writing the transposed chords that the keyboardist forgot to notify me about.

Ex4 SDA sits for 5 mins with a big grin on face whilst mic howls.

Ex5 SDA turns off the guitar channel because there is feedback everytime the guitar goes off. I place my hand in front off the vocal mic.

EX6 SDA repeatedly turns up the backing singer because they couldnt grasp the concept of the two singers changing positions (and therefore mics).

Great idea, I think many bass players here do double duty as soundmen and PA owners, but very often have too little time for sound checks and tweaking the PA sound.

Any "rules of thumb" type tips you have on how to dial in a good basic sound for vocals and different instruments would be great - for bass in particular of course. How to get rid of feedback and boominess and other room problems etc would also be good info.

Is there a "best way" to do a sound check - order of instruments etc - or is it down to the soundman's personal preference?

And, how do you stop people from placing half full beer glasses on the mixer table or subwoofers? :)

As a soundman and bass player myself, I tend to ask all these same questions as everyone else. I will try to answer some of the questions here.

Boominess in a room; on the bass rig eliminate alot of the feq range in the 80-250 area and boost 30-63 range. This takes out the crazy hard thump and will make your cab sound better (and last longer). With my PA's I do the same thing, all the hard thumping really taxes your speakers and power amps driving them into distortion. Many people think the other way around, but this really works.

Soundchecks; it is a soundmans preference, but in my opinion the vocals always go last. This is how I go, drums (kick 1st), bass, elec guitars, keys, Ac guitars, horns, backup vocals and then the big bad lead singer. If you can and have time do a whole song or four, I have a long story here that happened recently resulting in a rather mad female singer.

Soundmen in general are hard to deal with because of the bands and crowd they put up with. If you have good backline and a patient attitude you will sound good. I find a lot of bands including my own trying to outwit the sound guy, you will never win. (more long stories here) Be nice to them buy them a drink or a least a glass of water, but don't try to break there equipment or tell them how to do things. *Note to singers- if you want to use your own mic just buy a SM-58. Sound men hate anything but the 58, and will even if he can make it sound good they generally won't because you hurt his ego. (this goes for drummers too)

Feel free to email me any questions you may have about sound systems, soundmen or backline gear.

Remember be cool!! ;)

last year at the Garage venue in London I spent half an hour arguing with the soundman over whether the pre EQ or post EQ DI setting on my Trace amp would include the effects in the effect loop.

having read the manual when I bought it :rolleyes: I insisted "post EQ".
he insisted "pre EQ"- saying it would be "bad design" if it worked the other way.
in the end I had to demonstrate how it worked with a distortion setting.
*embarrassed soundman mumbles something about "bad design"*

Chris, Josh;

I understand your frustration, I really do. Situations like that are just awful. These guys are obviously incompetent or just don't care. What to do about it? Depends on your situation. The best solution would be to find a guy or a couple of guys that you feel comfortable with and hire them to mix your band at all gigs. Bands do have the discretion to hire their own sound people and not use house guys. Unfortunately this might not be in the budget. If you and other bands are all having trouble with a particular guy, perhaps complaining to venue management en masse might help? Barring that, get a lot of your friends to come out and complain to management about bad sound. these guys need to be confronted and turfed out. This is where it really helps to have some knowledge of how to operate sound systems. I hope you guys get the pleasure of working with some good sound people soon. It really makes a big difference.

As for the stage volume issue: I'll say that a lot of bands are too loud on stage. I'll also say that a lot of sound guys harp about stage volume waaayyyy too much. People need to hear themselves on stage. My advice is to always try to operate at the band's minimum comfortable level, because less stage volume really does help things out front. But make sure you are comfortable with your stage levels. There isn't any need for anyone to be unreasonable about it. Screaming at band members to turn down isn't going to help. Reasonable guys (like me) might say something like "this is a really loud/horrible room, so it would benefit everyone if you guys could bring it back a notch." Some explanation as to why he wants you to turn down is warranted.

Soundmen can certainly be hard to deal with at times, but so can artists;) . The best policy (until a guy has proven himself incompetent) is respect. I've seen too many artists treat very competent guys like flunkies. This does not help. Give guys you haven't met before the benefit of the doubt, they may be better musicians than you are. Show up on time for soundcheck, make sure you gear works, be polite, also let the guy know what to expect from the band. If you don't like reverb say "we don't like reverb," etc. Be professional, it will stand you in good stead if the guy proves to be a boob. It will also give you some bargaining power with the venue management/PA provider. Competent guys will be reasonable if you are.
If you're playing a festival with 30 acts and no soundchecks, be extra cool, because the crew is probably working on no sleep and might be a bit on edge. Cut them some slack, you will get better treatment for it. I will go to great lengths to make artists who respect me comfortable, and I suspect most reasonable sound people do too.

This is one of my favorite links on sound engineering http://prosoundweb.com/live/oldsoundman/

After having been a soundman at a couple of shows, I can honestly say that IMHO it was a thankless job and I wouldn't want to do it again.

The things I least enjoyed were: a) whiny singers who were never loud enough for themselves even when they were twice as loud as the rest of the mix; and b) members of the audience who would come up to me every two minutes with helpful "suggestions", even though most people said they were happy with the sound.

However, this experience taught me that, while soundmen are usually pretty frazzed before the show starts, there is no still excuse for a lot of the things mentioned in this thread (and IME). My best guess would be tunnel vision - "I know MY way works, so we can't try anything else".

Of course, not all sound people are like this and not all artists are annoying to the soundmen. The jerky ones deserve each other.

There are some tricks for those 'helpfuls' from the audience - one is to thank them, make a minor adjustment and then reset it after they have gone away. :) Takes less to do that than to start arguing with an intoxicated wise-@ss.

excellent thread.
;)

mark reccord...

i bought 3 jbl mr802's used. aside from road rash, they are in good usable condition, except for one horn. the bad horn has a diaphragm that has been overheated and is seizing, sounding like shiite. (emailed jbl to confirm my findings)

should i:

1) buy a ruby diaphragm for about $75
2) buy a radian dia. for about $99
3) buy a jbl dia. for about (gulp) $140
4) buy a complete eminence driver for $60
5) look for a used horn on ebay, risk that it "works fine"

your thoughts?

b

Originally posted by Anders Östberg
There are some tricks for those 'helpfuls' from the audience - one is to thank them, make a minor adjustment and then reset it after they have gone away. :) Takes less to do that than to start arguing with an intoxicated wise-@ss.

Most of the time I pretend to turn a knob or two but actually do nothing. It's hilarious when they say "That's much better now!"

Originally posted by thrash_jazz
a) whiny singers who were never loud enough for themselves even when they were twice as loud as the rest of the mix

Not disagreeing with ya, but have you ever sung lead vocal over a PA with a full band behind you? You can be singing as loud as possible and still barely be able to hear yourself (unless you stick a finger in your ear) even though you're turned up louder than everything else. If the singer's complaining that they're not loud enough, maybe they've not got adequate monitoring? And singing live when you can't hear the sound you're making is *not* good - for you or the audience.

Originally posted by moley


Not disagreeing with ya, but have you ever sung lead vocal over a PA with a full band behind you? You can be singing as loud as possible and still barely be able to hear yourself (unless you stick a finger in your ear) even though you're turned up louder than everything else. If the singer's complaining that they're not loud enough, maybe they've not got adequate monitoring? And singing live when you can't hear the sound you're making is *not* good - for you or the audience.

I know what you mean. You do need to have a lot of vocal presence in the monitors, but they were already waaay louder than anything else from all accounts. And they weren't talking about stage volume either. :)

My big issue with the soundman at our church is that they're extremly obsessed with keeping the stage volume extremly low. Thats not a huge problem, and I dont blame them, but the problem comes in when the drummer is louder than everyone, the pianist Im sitting next too is louder than the guitars/bass. I can never hear myself proporly on stage, Im always gettin drowned out by the drummer and pianist. Yet Im told Im too loud. In 16 years of playing Ive never had these types of problems.

I dont entirly blame this on our soundman though. The pastor (who is also a singer in the band) wants to have a say on the mix and stage volumes, and the senior pastor, who self admittidly doesnt know a thing about music or sound seems to have to stick his two sense in on it as well. Not to mention a couple of congregation members think they can have an input as to what goes on in the mix.

Every week its the same problem, the bass is too loud, yet I can never hear myself on stage.

It can be problematic to hear yourself on stage, we also try to keep the stage volume as low as possible, but an excited rock drummer is LOUD! :)

My solution is to use my small combo amp (EBS Drome 12") as a personal monitor. I'm normally at stage left, so I place it at my feet at the front left side of the stage, angled up at my ears. The drummer also gets some bass that way, whether he wants to or not. ;)

This works very well, I usually have to turn it up slightly as the show progresses as everyone seems to play harder later at night. And it doesn't affect the FOH sound much.

I wouldn't want to be a soundman, though- I certainly wouldn't want to deal with people like the drummer in my original band- "I want this, this, this and this in my monitor" "no, it's not loud enough" "no, there's not enough guitar- all I can hear is bass, I want more vocal" "I can't hear my snare" .......

half an hour later "no, the guitar's too loud now".
:mad:
I can't believe that when the drummer in my covers band gets a monitor mix in a fraction of the time.

the stage amp volume issue also bugs me- my timing goes to **** if I can't hear myself.
I understand the problem, though, with stage resonance and the mics picking up bass, causing a foghorn sound in the mix.

it helps to put the bass amp on crates to lift it to ear level.
there've been times when I've played a few songs crouching next to my amp, just to make sure it's on. :rolleyes: :p

regarding the stage volume issues...

one problem that seems too common is the fact that most guitar players and bass players believe that their backline 'amp' or 'stack' is a cool stage decoration. they place the combo or head & cab in a placement that is 'visually pleasing' because they want to show off the gear, or because 'it's supposed to be right there'. then they refuse the concept of repositioning or angling the cabinet.

this absolutely does not lend it self to a good stage mix.... and it encourages people to fix the problem of 'i can't hear myself' by using more volume. the volume contest is never won by anyone.

move your amp!!!! go on, don't be stubborn!!!

try a different position in relation to the drums, try sidestage, try rotating to the right or left 20 degrees or so, angling the cab upward 15 degrees... you can get a good stage mix if each performer is open minded about this.

mark...

i went on a tangent with your thread, sorry -
:o

b

Originally posted by Anders Östberg
It can be problematic to hear yourself on stage, we also try to keep the stage volume as low as possible, but an excited rock drummer is LOUD! :)

My solution is to use my small combo amp (EBS Drome 12") as a personal monitor. I'm normally at stage left, so I place it at my feet at the front left side of the stage, angled up at my ears. The drummer also gets some bass that way, whether he wants to or not. ;)

This works very well, I usually have to turn it up slightly as the show progresses as everyone seems to play harder later at night. And it doesn't affect the FOH sound much.

Been down that road on the amp situation. they wont even let me bring one in anymore. In fact they did away with everyone but one guitarist using an amp. They say the bass was just too over powering. im totally at their mercy as far as stage volume goes.

Originally posted by cassanova
My big issue with the soundman at our church is that they're extremly obsessed with keeping the stage volume extremly low. Thats not a huge problem, and I dont blame them, but the problem comes in when the drummer is louder than everyone, the pianist Im sitting next too is louder than the guitars/bass. I can never hear myself proporly on stage, Im always gettin drowned out by the drummer and pianist. Yet Im told Im too loud. In 16 years of playing Ive never had these types of problems.

I dont entirly blame this on our soundman though. The pastor (who is also a singer in the band) wants to have a say on the mix and stage volumes, and the senior pastor, who self admittidly doesnt know a thing about music or sound seems to have to stick his two sense in on it as well. Not to mention a couple of congregation members think they can have an input as to what goes on in the mix.

Every week its the same problem, the bass is too loud, yet I can never hear myself on stage.

This is a pretty common problem. I think a lot of people assume there's too much bass if they can hear it at all. People seem to be afraid of low end. Couple of questions. What's the stage (for lack of a better word) like? Is it a box or in a corner? What are you using for an amp? I'm just wondering if there's a better way to set up. Like tilting it back so it's pointing towards your head or raising it off the floor so it's closer to your ears. These things can enable you to hear better at lower volume. Have they considered putting a plexiglass enclosure around the drums to reduce their volume a bit? I've done a bunch of shows for TV that we did this for and it really helps drop overall stage volume, because drums are usually the loudest things and hardest to turn down. Worst case, you could try dialling out some low end and cranking your mids a bit, this might help you cut through a bit better without actually getting louder.

Stage sound is definitely tricky, especially on small stages in small rooms. I think having the minimum amount of stuff in your wedge that you get by with is a good policy. Trying to recreate the FOH mix in a monitor is going to make it harder to hear yourself, but a lot of people want that. Even with a big multiway monitor rig with a dedicated console and dedicated mixes getting that kind of mix is difficult with everybody competing for sonic space. I usually ask for my vocal, kick and snare and maybe a bit of lead vocal. I can usually hear all I want of the guitars and other vocalists from their wedges.

Vocals can be very difficult. A mistake a lot of soundmen make with monitors is trying to EQ them to sound nice and sweet. For rock n' roll, monitors need to be LOUD above all. The best way to acheive this is to leave in some of those harsh upper midrange frequencies. All the frequencies I tend to pull in the house (2k,2.5k,3.15k,etc) I try to leave in the monitors. Also, a lot of audio guys try to make monitor mixes sound the way they think they should. I set monitors the way the artist wants them and I don't touch anything unless it's asked for, or feeding back (of course). Sometimes I do try to boost solos in the soloists mix, but I usually ask if it's ok first.

Originally posted by Anders Östberg
There are some tricks for those 'helpfuls' from the audience - one is to thank them, make a minor adjustment and then reset it after they have gone away. :) Takes less to do that than to start arguing with an intoxicated wise-@ss.

I usually ask them where they work and them tell them that I'll be down on monday to tell them how to do their job, if they're particularly annoying. Shuts 'em up every time. This type of thing only seems to happen at folk festivals and bars. I've been doing a lot of arena shows lately and the audience usually leaves me alone.

Audio guys get a lot of flack, but in reality most people have no idea what we are dealing with. Poor acoustics, bad gear, horrible bands, too loud bands, etc. It is a tough job sometimes. You can't make a bad band/instrument/singer sound good. The cardinal rule is poop in; poop out. You can't polish a turd. I saw Blink 182 a while ago and the sound was atrocious. The poor audio guy didn't have a chance because the band was terrible.

Originally posted by bimplizkit
regarding the stage volume issues...

one problem that seems too common is the fact that most guitar players and bass players believe that their backline 'amp' or 'stack' is a cool stage decoration. they place the combo or head & cab in a placement that is 'visually pleasing' because they want to show off the gear, or because 'it's supposed to be right there'. then they refuse the concept of repositioning or angling the cabinet.

this absolutely does not lend it self to a good stage mix.... and it encourages people to fix the problem of 'i can't hear myself' by using more volume. the volume contest is never won by anyone.

move your amp!!!! go on, don't be stubborn!!!

try a different position in relation to the drums, try sidestage, try rotating to the right or left 20 degrees or so, angling the cab upward 15 degrees... you can get a good stage mix if each performer is open minded about this.

Excellent points. I find that getting people to point their amps at their ears works wonders. Sidewashing amps really helps me a FOH as well. There's nothing worse than having a very directional guitar amp pointed right at me, loud enough so I can't put it in the mix where I'm standing, but walk 4 feet to the left or right and you can't hear it. Sidwashing removes that problem.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Reccord


This is a pretty common problem. I think a lot of people assume there's too much bass if they can hear it at all. People seem to be afraid of low end. Couple of questions. What's the stage (for lack of a better word) like? Is it a box or in a corner? What are you using for an amp?

The stage is on the back concrete wall, and made of wood. I dont use an amp there anymore, they wont let me. I run into a direct box into the board.



Have they considered putting a plexiglass enclosure around the drums to reduce their volume a bit?

they actually have the drums on a risor and a plexiglass enclousre on them. It worked great for muting the sound a lil bit out in the congregation, but for stage volume didnt do squat.



Worst case, you could try dialling out some low end and cranking your mids a bit, this might help you cut through a bit better without actually getting louder.

tried that too, they just refuse to boost me enough to hear myself. even with tweekin the mids im still gettin lost up there.

Its a medium size room too, so youd think theyd not be as scared to "fill it up"


My advice to them has been since you cant controll him and get him to come down, everybody else should be boosted to balance it all out. Just seems logical to me.

Originally posted by Mark Reccord

Audio guys get a lot of flack, but in reality most people have no idea what we are dealing with.

I agree. While I'm not a soundman on occassion I end up being the guy doing the sound. During band rehearsal I usually control the PA, which is just vocs, and even that can be troublesome with feedback in small rooms. I've also run sound for a friend's band a couple times and realize it's not as easy as some may think. I know there are guys out there who are complete idiots and call themselves soundguys, but keep in mind most of the time the soundguy is trying to help the band.

Originally posted by thrash_jazz
I know what you mean. You do need to have a lot of vocal presence in the monitors, but they were already waaay louder than anything else from all accounts. And they weren't talking about stage volume either.

Ah well in that case I take it back. The vocalists were just whining s**ts :D

Originally posted by cassanova
My big issue with the soundman at our church is that
they're extremly obsessed with keeping the stage
volume extremly low. Thats not a huge problem, and I
dont blame them, but the problem comes in when the
drummer is louder than everyone, the pianist Im
sitting next too is louder than the guitars/bass. I
can never hear myself proporly on stage, Im always
gettin drowned out by the drummer and pianist. Yet Im
told Im too loud. In 16 years of playing Ive never had
these types of problems.

I dont entirly blame this on our soundman though. The
pastor (who is also a singer in the band) wants to
have a say on the mix and stage volumes, and the
senior pastor, who self admittidly doesnt know a thing
about music or sound seems to have to stick his two
sense in on it as well. Not to mention a couple of
congregation members think they can have an input as
to what goes on in the mix.

Every week its the same problem, the bass is too loud,
yet I can never hear myself on stage.

One of the problems is that it's not a performance so the 'normal' stage levels don't occur. If you take out the religious aspect what 'they' are trying to achieve is a volume where a punter can sing without a microphone and hear themselves easily. If you go to a real gig then you have to place your mouth near your mates ear and shout "Do you want a drink!!!!!". So anyone used to attending or playing gigs will find the low volume surprising.

Turning that on its head, many church goers have never been to a real gig. Their concept of music is played on a 10w 'hifi' with 5 inch speakers. Most of them are unaware of the Charles Manson effect or whatever its called and the loudness button is never used. So turn up to church and be confronted with 4x10's or shock horror a 15 and it’s a revelation (sic) to them.

Churches were originally designed to amplify sound. Many UK churches are a nightmare to play in as they were built several hundred years before electricity. A lot of modern churches hark back to those designs (high ceilings, lots of reflective surfaces) and others are built with no thought re acoustics. Wooden floors transmit sound very efficiently, so most church bands are placed on one.

Another problem is that the space allocated for the band is not very generous. I can touch the hi hat by simply moving my elbow. This is obviously way too near the drums.

What I do is use my amp (you are going to have to sort that out) as a FOH system. I don't side-wash anymore and I don't listen to the sound desk attendants. I have an agreement with the band leader that if she goes FOH and the bass is too loud I will turn down. I have noticed that sometimes I wont get told to turn down even if someone has complained during the sound check. Because of that I trust her judgement.

This leads on to another problem unique to this situation. Often the sound team do not report to the band leader. We have 'stage managers' and part of their job is to control the volume. They'll get the volume sorted in an empty building and then obviously everything changes when bodies arrive and everyone turns up again.

Part of our problem is that two of the three drummers are very loud (and ironically when the soft one was the sole drummer he got complaints most weeks). Most of the time they back off a lot and when it gets all excited the volumes go to pot. After reading an article on another site I've developed a system of having the amp loud and barely stroking the strings for the softest volume. When the drummer goes off on one I can dig in to match him. My position is that we are too loud and I will willingly turn down if everyone else does. The drummer is always the minimum marker.

There are some tricks. The current band leader's predecessor (a good mate of mine) would hardly ever start the service on a loud song. Another one that I use is to play with the dynamics of the song so it isn't loud all the time. It's always about compromise without being compromised. I won't side-wash any more as I'll get buried.

This may amuse you, there was bright idea (and unusually it was actually a good idea) to get in a pro engineer to teach our lot how to set up the new desk. When this guy was told about the stubbornly loud bassist he replied that the bass was not overly loud. Now what I can't understand is that of all the things he taught them on that evening, they forgot this little gem.

My situation is that I play 3-4 times a week for free when I could earn money playing in a covers band. I play in church because I enjoy it apart from all the negative comments I have typed. I cannot really mention any of the benefits of playing in church without being labelled pushy (again). So I won't.

If your income is tied in with playing in church then you cannot just walk (like I will do and have done in the past) if things get unreasonable. One of the things I have done is to insist that the SDA stand next while the band play. Being that close to drums often does the trick. Another advantage that I have is that I refuse to play without earplugs. When one of the leadership who was checking out our volumes asked me why I used them I told him that we are too loud. He couldn’t work that one out.

I would tell the sound team to sort the drummer out and will they help me in with my half stack until they do?

Whew that’s a long post, hope some of it helps. At least you know that you are not alone.

CS

Originally posted by bimplizkit
excellent thread.
;)

mark reccord...

i bought 3 jbl mr802's used. aside from road rash, they are in good usable condition, except for one horn. the bad horn has a diaphragm that has been overheated and is seizing, sounding like shiite. (emailed jbl to confirm my findings)

should i:

1) buy a ruby diaphragm for about $75
2) buy a radian dia. for about $99
3) buy a jbl dia. for about (gulp) $140
4) buy a complete eminence driver for $60
5) look for a used horn on ebay, risk that it "works fine"

your thoughts?

b

Sorry about missing this post! Too many posts to reply to! :p

I would bite the bullet and get the correct JBL diaphragm. You're way less likely to run into problems. If you replace with a different make of diaphragm, at best it will sound different and maybe have different phase characteristics, which could give you EQing problems, etc. At worst it won't fit in the gap properly. Putting a completely new driver in will definitely make the cab sound different from the others. How much different and will it cause problems? Hard to tell, really. I've found that I've had problems EQing two cabs with different horn drivers in them.

The JBL diaphragms will be tougher and harder to blow up than the others. They'll generally sound better too. And, no, I don't work for JBL :D.

If you're going to go with a different make of diaphragm, you should be aware that JBL drivers are wound backwards from other drivers, which means you'll need to wire the other make diaphragm with cross polarity to the JBL ones for them to be in phase with each other (ie red-black, black-red).
hope this helps, post or PM me if you have any other questions.
Cheers!

Spacegoat, I just wanted to say a belated "thanks" to you for your contribution here.

A couple of questions:

Live: I'm running a GK-700rb through a Peavey 4x10TVX onstage. The PA is used just for vocals (it's just a basic two 2-way speaker set up). I compete with 2x100 watt half stacks on stage. I've been told that I cut through and am heard quite well, but I'm afraid that my tone is being somewhat compromised. Would it be feasible to run my bass signal from my amp's DI into the PA just for presence and clarity (little or no low end sound) and continue to get the vast majority of my sound from the 4x10, or would that likely add too much presence to my sound and further compromise my desired tone? (I'm getting the tone I want-tons of punch and growl- and it apparently cuts through and is heard, but I'm afraid that what the audience is hearing under the guitars w/ heavy distortion isn't perceived as what I'm putting out, like they're not hearing the punch and growl --- I wish I could go into the audience while we play):rolleyes: Basically, would it be worth the effort, or am I just worried about a problem that doesn't exist?

Recording/Mixing: How do you get the bass to sound natural in the mix. How do you capture that lively sound- the warm lows, the growly mids, and the live, sizzling highs (record without sounding like you're recording in a big, empty room that creates a "hollow" sound)? How do you get that massive tone to fit in there and prevent it from getting muddy and preserving all of the frequencies? Any suggestions for boosting and cutting frequencies? (I try to record a flat signal) ALso, what are your suggestions for EQing other instruments, i.e. guitars, drums, and vocals. Should I look at applying effects? If so, which ones, and what is and is not tasteful? I know I won't get that perfectly mastered sound I hear on CD's, but there's just something missing when I try to mix the different sounds together. It sounds, well, lackluster- certainly not what it sounds like when played live with good balance. I'm by no means an expert, so, any advice is appreciated.

Sorry if anything is unclear- it's late...

Thanks

Originally posted by CS


that is a good idea imo too. there was a guy who claimed to be a professional soundman, said he did work in Nashville with some of the pro's. Oddly enough he didnt stick around. Im not supprised that they forgot that little gem, it wouldnt supprise me if they just didnt like what he had to say and they tossed his advice out the window, thats pretty much what mine does if they dont like what they hear.

My situation is that I play 3-4 times a week for free when I could earn money playing in a covers band. I play in church because I enjoy it apart from all the negative comments I have typed. I cannot really mention any of the benefits of playing in church without being labelled pushy (again). So I won't.

If your income is tied in with playing in church then you cannot just walk (like I will do and have done in the past) if things get unreasonable. One of the things I have done is to insist that the SDA stand next while the band play. Being that close to drums often does the trick. Another advantage that I have is that I refuse to play without earplugs. When one of the leadership who was checking out our volumes asked me why I used them I told him that we are too loud. He couldn’t work that one out.

You can say what you want, and I wont lable you as pushy. Heck everyones entitled to have their own opinion. Part of my income is tied in with the church, they recently started paying me to play for them. (after having to quit once) But I wont hesitate to walk again. In fact I'm comming very close to that. After church you're supposed to walk away feeling happy and uplifted, most members in this band are just the opposite.

As for volume the only one who is too loud is usually our drummer. And Im forever telling them that. If they dont correct this problem within 2 weeks Im bailing on them again. I dont need the agrivation. I tried to work out a lil trick last night. I left my signal on my bass at 50%, and let them raise me at the board. When I heard it still wasnt enough for me to hear myself, I tried turning up at the bass, this worked for a song, but then they cut me back down at the board. They seem to think that if they go past a 1:00 position on the volume controlls that its too much. GRRRRRRR


CS

Cassanova

The reason that I'm too loud is because I refuse to be drowned out by anyone. It is not unreasonable to insist that you hear yourself. I'd start bringing an amp ( a really loud one) until they sort out the stage volumes.

NB you could sabotage the drumsticks and when they break tell him that he must be hitting too hard.

bump for the man...

Originally posted by CS
Cassanova

The reason that I'm too loud is because I refuse to be drowned out by anyone. It is not unreasonable to insist that you hear yourself. I'd start bringing an amp ( a really loud one) until they sort out the stage volumes.

i used to bring my amp when i first started playing with them, but they said it was too over powering. so i have to leave it at home now and use the damn direct box.

I fixed the problem this morning. We did sound check and i still couldnt hear myself, and when I asked for more volume in the moniter they told me it was loud enough. I calmly unplugged the chords and packed up my gear and walked out, then told them, ya'll need to find a new bassist, one whos totally ignorant and doesnt know jack about sound and music and maybe you'll keep him. They stopped me by the front door and said that theyd give me more signal. Todays service I could finally hear myself without gettin drowned out as much.

Ok guys, sorry for the delay in responding, but it's been a real busy week at work and the weather was so nice this weekend that I just had to go mountain biking....:D

ChenNuts44:

It's feasible to do this. Whether or not it's desirable is dependent on a few factors, the main one being how much power is being used for the vocals. If you have to drive your PA amp real hard to get the vocals above the band then I wouldn't reccommend running the bass as well. It will just make it harder to get vocal clarity. If you've got some headroom, it should be Ok. I'd probably roll out some low end and turn the midrange up a bit on the channel strip. I find that adding a bit of midrange tends to bring out the growly-ness in bass guitar and helps it punch through heavy guitars. I find the 400-1kHz range to be effective for this, depending on the instrument. The best way to determine if you need to do it is find a way to get out into the house while you're playing or have someone play your bass while you go have a walk around during a soundcheck. This will certainly give you a better idea of what is going on.


As for your second question, it can be really difficult to get that sound when recording. Here's some things that have worked for me in the past. I like to have at least two channels for bass. One direct from the instrument and one with a microphone on a cabinet. I like to use large diaphragm mics like the Sennheiser 421 or AKG D112. The sound of a microphone picking up a speaker goes a long way in getting some of the "oomph" factor IMO. Plus it will help get some of your stage sound to the recording console. I like to run through a tube preamp to get a bit of natural compression too and sometimes a bit of drive. I find a small bit of overdrive works nicely for heavier rock. I have actually found that the Tech21 pedals (Sansamp, Bass Compactor) quite an effective low cost way to get some of this. I never do any console EQ or actual compression until mixing time. I find that spending some time fooling around with mic placement, amp EQ and stuff really helps. In mixdown, I tend to use a fair bit of compression on the bass. Not enough to take away dynamics but enough to even it out a bit. Compression can add quite a lot of punch to a bass sound when used right. I usually start with a 3:1 ratio with fast attack and slow release, and set the threshold so that it compresses a little on the average-quieter notes. I usually set it so I get about 6-8 dB of gain reduction on the louder notes.
I tend to do a boost in the lower midrange (again 400Hz to 1kHz area), but this really depends on the player and instrument. If I boost low end it's usually around 70-80Hz. I don't tend to boost much lower than that because I find it interferes with the kick a bit. Accentuating the lower mids a bit doesn't tend to sound so amazing when the bass is soloed but I really find it helps it to sit in the mix, especially when there are heavy guitars with that scooped mid sound. I also tend to bring back the really high end a bit (10Khz or so). I find it takes some fret noise out. That's a preference on my part of course. Effects-wise, sometimes a bit of chorus helps make the bass stick out a bit. I don't tend to use a lot of effects on anything actually, but again that's preference and also depends on the situation. By far the most important effect is compression, IMO. Anyway, that's all I can think of at this point....I hope this was helpful.

CS said:
"It is not unreasonable to insist that you hear yourself:"
I totally agree. If you can't hear yourself you can't perform properly. If the sound people and band members can't find a solution where everything can be heard they are either grossly incompetent or have a hidden agenda. My $0.02 of course. I generally don't find musicians difficult to deal with and on the vast majority of the gigs I do, people walk away happy. This includes the audience for the most part. It comes down to being competent and reasonable.

CS and Cassanova: It sounds like the people you're dealing with are neither. Sometimes it takes extreme action to get people to act. It's unfortunate that it has to come down to this sometimes. Bravo for making the big stand Cassanova!

Originally posted by SMASH
Spacegoat, I just wanted to say a belated "thanks" to you for your contribution here.

No sweat! I hope I've had something valuable to offer here.

WHY IS THE KICK DRUM THE LOUDEST F***ING THING IN THE MIX AT EVERY METAL SHOW?

Uh, why are you yelling and cursing at us? Rude, rude,...

:D

Originally posted by Eulogist
WHY IS THE KICK DRUM THE LOUDEST F***ING THING IN THE MIX AT EVERY METAL SHOW?

Because people like thump.

Originally posted by Eulogist
WHY IS THE KICK DRUM THE LOUDEST F***ING THING IN THE MIX AT EVERY METAL SHOW?

Rephrase that as a sensible question and I might take a shot at answering it.

Originally posted by Eulogist
WHY IS THE KICK DRUM THE LOUDEST F***ING THING IN THE MIX AT EVERY METAL SHOW?
I understand your frustration.

CS and Cassanova: It sounds like the people you're dealing with are neither. Sometimes it takes extreme action to get people to act. It's unfortunate that it has to come down to this sometimes. Bravo for making the big stand Cassanova!

thanks,

its a shame i had to do that, and you know as well as i do that you can only pull a stunt like that once maybe twice and get away with it before they say, ok thats fine with us hope theres no hard feelings.

The entire band all has the same issues I do and we're going to pull the pastor asside and talk to him and make him understand our requests.

Originally posted by Eulogist
WHY IS THE KICK DRUM THE LOUDEST F***ING THING IN THE MIX AT EVERY METAL SHOW?

... or in an average cover band like mine???

Hmmm... seems lots of drummers, sound techs, and musicians love the loud fat kick feeling. If pushed to extreme, it actually causes physical discomfort in people. (We've had complaints before about this)

Thing is, drummers & sound techs and musicians must remember that if you are pounding the "stuff" out of your audience and causing discomfort, you are doing a disservice to those who are supporting your show.

Eulogist, I know what you mean. There is good sound and there is loud, kick your guts out sound.

If we want repeat customers at our show, we shoot for the good. And if anyone mentions "Too much kick" we turn down and / or re-eq the kick.


;)

I don't have a problem hearing myself. But I do have a problem with space sometimes. So what I am wondering is how much difference does the direct box make if you generally use a natural bass tone?

I see these things for $25 - $150 ... and I have hardly even looked yet. That's a pretty wide range! I would like to own one of these for when my bass rig is not practical. Should I just get the cheap Carvin one?

You know, I've frequented many online forums and I have to say, this is by far the most touchy when it comes to everyone playing nice and not using dirty words. But whatever.

To rephrase the question:

For the majority of hardcore, metal, and hard rock shows I've been to, regardless of the venue or soundman, the kick drum is the loudest thing in the FOH mix; loud to the point where I really have to struggle to hear what the guitar and bass (and sometimes vocalist) are doing even though I may know the song. It seems blatant to me and greatly detracts from my enjoyment of the show, but I've never heard anyone else complaining about it. Do sound people do this on purpose? What is the rationale? Do the bands realize what the audience is hearing? Is that the sound they want?

These are the questions that plague me.

It's cool man. I just kinda felt that you were directing anger at me . I see that isn't the case so it's all cool.

It's not just metal shows. It seems like it happens in all types of rock music.
I think there's a couple of reasons for it, neither of them good. First off, I find a lot of heavier bands insist on a really loud kick drum. I've been in the situation where I thought there was plenty but the guitarist and singer (standing in the house) kept saying "more." That's part of it.

The other part is with sound people. I hear lots of mixes with "lead kick drum" and it drives me nuts. I think they're trying to give the band more impact, so that you can feel the low end. I hear guys saying stuff like "ooh this is a nice rig I'm going to kill them with the kick tonight!" I used to be one of those guys until I grew up and realized that there was more to a mix than a great kick sound. I think a lot of these guys think the audience likes more low end than it actually does. It's also easy to get lots of low end from the kick drum, and I think a lot of guys (even the ones mixing "name acts") don't have the skills to get everything else in the mix so the rely on the kick to get impact. Also I see a lot of these guys EQing the mids out of the PA (even real high end rigs that you shouldn't need to EQ much at all). This facilitates a great kick sound but makes it really hard to get guitars and vocals to sound clear. I think it sucks and I'm willing to bet many audience members don't dig it either.

Unfortunately, a large percentage of "pro" guys are boobs. Even some of the guys at the top levels. I've worked hundreds of shows as a systems engineer (i.e. I fly the PA, cable everything up, tune the system, and more often than not babysit the band engineer) for some pretty large acts and I've been disappointed in the sound for a good number of them. When you know the rig and the room sound good the only other variables are the band and their engineer. I've heard some amazing sounding shows also, but they're outnumbered by the crappy ones. I've also made an interesting observation over the years: The talent of a sound guy is inversely proportional to the badness of his attitude. Almost invariably, the whiny, demanding jackasses (can I say that?) couldn't mix a drink, while the mellow guys are almost always good...

Anyway, I digress off the main topic. I hope that shed some light, I don't know how to fix it unfortunately....

Originally posted by Gabu
I don't have a problem hearing myself. But I do have a problem with space sometimes. So what I am wondering is how much difference does the direct box make if you generally use a natural bass tone?

I see these things for $25 - $150 ... and I have hardly even looked yet. That's a pretty wide range! I would like to own one of these for when my bass rig is not practical. Should I just get the cheap Carvin one?

Personally, I think the cheaper DIs tend to sound pretty thin. I'd stay away from Carvin, DOD or Behringer. If you're on a budget the cheapest decent DI I can think of is the Whirlwind IMP-2. It's your basic passive unit with a ground lift. They work fine and are indestructible. If budget isn't too much of an issue, my faves are the Radial JDI(passive) and JDV(active), Countryman type 85(active) and the BSS AR-100. Behringer's active DI is a direct (crappy) ripoff of this. If price really isn't an issue the Aguilar DB-900 and the Avalon U5 are crazy nice.
For pure simplcity and cost effectiveness you can't beat an IMP-2, though.

Thanks man. That's just the kind of input I was looking for. It's good to know I'm not alone on this.

So, for my band I guess the best I can do is ask the soundman politely not to lead with the kick drum and cut all the mids out of the EQ.

As for other bands, I'm sure soundguys would detest it, but I really just want to go up and tell them to turn the kick down because their mix sounds like dookie. Think I'll be accosted?

IME, you have to be careful with passive DI boxes. I have seen the transformers in some of those things get loaded down by the cable runs, etc. and kill the output level of the bass. Even some good ones. IMHO you'd be better off with an active DI box. YMMV :cool:

Originally posted by Gabu
I don't have a problem hearing myself. But I do have a problem with space sometimes. So what I am wondering is how much difference does the direct box make if you generally use a natural bass tone?

I see these things for $25 - $150 ... and I have hardly even looked yet. That's a pretty wide range! I would like to own one of these for when my bass rig is not practical. Should I just get the cheap Carvin one?

I myself dont like the DI boxes, They make my tone sound weak and thin, Id much rather just mic my cabinet and let the board handle it from there.

I know one brand that we use at the church is Peavey DI boxes, and I didnt care for them. I'll make a note of what the other brands up there are tonight at the sermon, and I'll either post here or slip ya a pm of what they are and how much they cost. (if i can find out how much they cost anyways)

Originally posted by cassanova


I myself dont like the DI boxes, They make my tone sound weak and thin, Id much rather just mic my cabinet and let the board handle it from there.

I know one brand that we use at the church is Peavey DI boxes, and I didnt care for them. I'll make a note of what the other brands up there are tonight at the sermon, and I'll either post here or slip ya a pm of what they are and how much they cost. (if i can find out how much they cost anyways)

Great!! Thanks a bunch. :) I can't believe my band has fit four guys on some of the stages we have played.

Originally posted by Mark Reccord


Personally, I think the cheaper DIs tend to sound pretty thin. I'd stay away from Carvin, DOD or Behringer. If you're on a budget the cheapest decent DI I can think of is the Whirlwind IMP-2. It's your basic passive unit with a ground lift. They work fine and are indestructible. If budget isn't too much of an issue, my faves are the Radial JDI(passive) and JDV(active), Countryman type 85(active) and the BSS AR-100. Behringer's active DI is a direct (crappy) ripoff of this. If price really isn't an issue the Aguilar DB-900 and the Avalon U5 are crazy nice.
For pure simplcity and cost effectiveness you can't beat an IMP-2, though.

Thanks a bunch Mark! I will look at the Imp.

Originally posted by Gabu


Thanks a bunch Mark! I will look at the Imp.

Another possibility is Tech 21's Sans Amp Bass Driver DI, if you decided you wanted to go the active DI route. I used to own one, and they produce a pretty damn good tone.

that other brand of DI we use is ADP or APD, sorry I looked at it and still cant remember the exact name of it. But I wouldnt recomend that one to you either.

Originally posted by cassanova
I myself dont like the DI boxes, They make my tone sound weak and thin, Id much rather just mic my cabinet and let the board handle it from there.

I agree with you cass. See my post above, which addresses that issue. Active DI boxes are the way to go because they do not load the instrument's output down like passives do.:cool: :cool:

Originally posted by lneal

I agree with you cass. See my post above, which addresses that issue. Active DI boxes are the way to go because they do not load the instrument's output down like passives do.:cool: :cool:

I was reading that over again. I dont have the cash to buy an active DI box and since the church has several passive ones at hand I seriously doubt they'll buy another one.

One odd thing Ive noticed at our rehearsals. I just run right into the board at our drummers house and get a much better tone from doing that, than the tone I get at the church.

Originally posted by lneal

I agree with you cass. See my post above, which addresses that issue. Active DI boxes are the way to go because they do not load the instrument's output down like passives do.:cool: :cool:

I haven't had problems with the IMP-2 or JDI loading down instrument outputs. They may be doing that but they sound just fine. The JDI is probably one of the nicest sounding DIs I've ever used. That being said, I generally do prefer active boxes but find some of those sound pretty thin too. Like the Klark LB-100 for instance. I think Gabu was looking for something simple and not too expensive. The IMP-2 fits the criteria. I'd stay away from the cheap actives like DOD or Behringer because while they won't load your bass' output down, they just sound like crap. I'd suggest that you'd be better off getting a quality passive for around the price of a crap active. Just my $0.02 of course. :D

Mark:
I do agree with what you said. Maybe I should have qualified my response earlier by adding that I notice this problem more with passive basses than active ones. Passive basses, naturally, have a much higher output impedance than active ones, therefore it is easier to load their output down than that of an active bass.:cool:

Originally posted by Mark Reccord


I haven't had problems with the IMP-2 or JDI loading down instrument outputs. They may be doing that but they sound just fine. The JDI is probably one of the nicest sounding DIs I've ever used. That being said, I generally do prefer active boxes but find some of those sound pretty thin too. Like the Klark LB-100 for instance. I think Gabu was looking for something simple and not too expensive. The IMP-2 fits the criteria. I'd stay away from the cheap actives like DOD or Behringer because while they won't load your bass' output down, they just sound like crap. I'd suggest that you'd be better off getting a quality passive for around the price of a crap active. Just my $0.02 of course. :D
Yep, you were right! And at $40, the IMP is exactly what I need. I will have one soon, because I need one for my November 29 studio date. ;)

I am looking at a possible outdoor gig too. I am a bit concerned about that. I would definately bring my rig for it. But I am wondering if it will be good for outside. It's an Ampeg B25 driven by the SVT400T. It's set at 16 ohms, and the two power amps are bridged. They are rated at 400w @ 8 ohms, so I guess I am putting about 100w per 15 into the B25. I have never played outside though. (actually with this rig, I have never played a gig at all, just practices...) I can change the imp to 4 ohms, not bridge the outputs, and add a second B25. That should still send about 100w per 15, and I guess effectively double my sound output. But do I need that much? Also FYI Our PA has no sub, just 2 x 15+8+horn, and we haven't run any gear through it at our shows yet.

*edit added*
Or would it maybe be better to just use the bass rig + pa support?

Speaking of DI's...

I have an effects pedal board that puts my guitarist's to shame, but soundmen in some clubs we play INSIST on running a DI before my effects. This really ticks me off because I know they're pumping my clean bass into the house. What the hell do they think I'm using the effects board for? A prop?

if no one responds to this in a week i can legitimately start a similar one right?

wait wait wait... how much do sound guys make? i've been doing sound for people for free... i hate my life... my dad's friend's ask to use his JBLs and PAs etc, he always sends me out to fix em up.

Originally posted by Eulogist
Speaking of DI's...

I have an effects pedal board that puts my guitarist's to shame, but soundmen in some clubs we play INSIST on running a DI before my effects. This really ticks me off because I know they're pumping my clean bass into the house. What the hell do they think I'm using the effects board for? A prop?

While I have no idea what kind of music you are playing and what kind of sounds you are using, I guess your question might be answered if you tried to mix a band once...

The soundmen probably want to get your sound right once and then forget about it. They have enough things to do without messing with bass each time you change your sound.

So I should sit idle while he nullifies an significant component of my music?

And by the way, I run sound at NCSU's Stewart Theater, a thrust theater that seats about 800. I've had to deal with plenty of odd situations, as far as musicians go, but I've never short-circuited their signal chain to make my job easier.

At any rate, the pedals I use most include a metal zone, ODB-3, chorus and delay. IMO the chorus and delay don't alter the sound enough that it needs to be "messed with" however, I wouldn't doubt if the distortion presents a problem. Any recommendations on this?

I also send my sound post EQ and effects. If you use effects you will of course want to hear them in the PA too. It takes some work though as the sound on stage and in the PA may need different equalizing for instance, but that's what soundchecks are for. In my case I prefer my sound on stage to be a bit "harder" than what goes out in the PA, for hearing myself better. It may take a bit longer to dial in, but as always, explain your needs and be friendly with the sound guy and he will take care of it.

Eulogist:

You should insist on going post effects if they're part of your sound. You have every right to. I certainly would. I always ask whether bassists have effects and always take at least one post FX signal if they have 'em. It shouldn't cause a big problem if you say "I'd prefer that to be post FX please." All you need to do is let the sound guy hear all your patches in the soundcheck. Your end of the bargain is to keep levels between patches under control, i.e. make sure your dirty sound isn't 40dB hotter than your clean sound, etc... I can't figure out why some "soundguys" have a problem with that...... Good engineers are attentive to the needs of the artists they work with....

Also, I can't see why there would be any issue with the distortion....

Originally posted by Eulogist
I wouldn't doubt if the distortion presents a problem. Any recommendations on this?

Yes. Don't worry about it. I used to fret myself to death over things like that, then I realized there isn't a damn thing you can do about someone else's rotten attitude. To quote James Brown:
"I got mine, don't worry 'bout his.":D

OK, no takers in the amp forum so I'll double-post here... (just earned slap on the wrist? :))

Is a notch filter on my bass amp a must have?

I'm pretty close to ordering new amplification from Hevos, but I have one nagging doubt - there is no parametric mid or notch filter in their EQ section, only five fixed frequencies (60, 250, 800, 2500 and 8000 kHz). My experience from live gigs tells me I often use the notch function on my EBS amp to dial out boominess at about 70-90 Hz or so.

However, my question to you sound guys is: In your experience is boominess primarily something related to room acoustics or is it more a characteristic of (non-linear) bass rig cabinets? The problem could also be my PA which I feel is a bit mushy in the low end (EV300s + active Mackie subs).

What's your feeling, could I do without the parameteric mid? And, if not, is there a good parametric EQ or notch filter box you want to recommend for my efx loop?

I have a question....why do some sound guy's insist on using a crappy di box that is really no better than the di in my amp...most of the di's I encounter are the "crappy" ones mentioned here,but they say that the di in my amp is crap and all di's in amps are crap...why is that? why would Mesa or SWR or Ampeg or any other manufacturer put a completely usless or crappy di in their product. I own a Mesa M-pulse600 which has a di w\ pre-post switch either mode is tube driven...I've been led to believe tube di's are the bees knees...but when we get to the gig,the sound guy says"lets use my di,the one in your amp is crap...mine sounds better"..with no explanation...I run my eq pretty much flat so post or pre does not matter to me but they insist that the "better "sound comes from their di...just wondering why...thank you in advance

Originally posted by rekesbass
but they insist that the "better "sound comes from their di...just wondering why...thank you in advance
Because they are idiots.

Because he is actually right and has a better dedicated DI box than the cheep-ish after-though they put in your amp? Because he has a job to do and wants to use known equipment, much as you do? Because he actually knows more about live sound and PA than you do?

You never know... :)

Originally posted by Anders Östberg
Because he is actually right and has a better dedicated DI box than the cheep-ish after-though they put in your amp? Because he has a job to do and wants to use known equipment, much as you do? Because he actually knows more about live sound and PA than you do?

You never know... :)
I've never had any trouble convincing sound guys to use the DI in my Trace GP12SMX pre. Why? Because it's not a cheep-ish afterthought affair. Its clean, quiet and top-notch.:cool:

Anders,how do you know what I know?? FYI I do sound on more occations that I care to...and with Mesa's years in the industry and the quality of their products I highly doubt that the di in their amps is an after thought...I would like a more convincing arguement...and that being said, that must mean that every amp manufacturer who put di's in their amps (including YOURS) was an afterthought.that would also include all the pre-amps on the market also,because the di is taken from the pre-amp section...not the power amp...please explain...BTW not all sound guys, but more than a few want to use the very di's that were mentioned as crap on THIS fourm... and the di in my amp is pretty good,not great but pretty good...now if every sound guy pulled out a Countryman di I would let him have HIS way every time..I am not an idiot,so don't insult my inteligence(my spelling,on the other hand is fair game)I'm just lookin for a good answer,and yours was not IT.

rekesbass, no offense meant. As you may see from how I worded my post with a list of "Because..." I was responding to ineal's "Beacause they are idiots" post. And with an added smiley to boot.

There's always two sides to a story and perhaps from the soundguy's point of view one of my examples were valid. If the sound guy told you that your DI sounds like crap he was obviously wrong, and not very tactical or polite. He could still be right in that his DI sounds better though, or that he feels more confident in using it.

Anyway, Peace.

none taken...but I'm sure that you can share my frustration in this matter..if the di in my amp is crap,why would I(or anyone else) want to use an out board piece of crap di that does not sound any better than the onboard one in my amp...when I'm totally open to using a mic or a combo of the two...it just seems to me that SOME sound guys cheat the bass with a crappy di and go spend gobs of cash on the best mics and outboard gear to make the drums and guitars sound great and the bass gets f*&#ed...but I guess that is just a reflection on them,because "the band only sounds as good as their bass player"..Mesa catalog quote...:)

I think *some* sound guys try to make it easy on themselves, from my own experience I know how much work there can be with drums, vocals and other stuff that they perhaps try the quickest way they can with the bass. Just run their own DI and that's it, no complications like unknown DIs or mics. But I agree, it sucks as the bass is more important to the overall sound than people realize. I can't see any way out of this situation other than being helpful and friendly with the sound guy, being there early so you are first in line, and just trying to explain what you want to do.

we could all become double-life-leading sound tecs on our off time and let the BASS RULE THE WORLD!!!!!(evil laugh-huhuhuhahahaha) and squash every guitarist on the planet;)...who's with me?

Bass players already rule! The rest of the world just don't recognize that until we stop playing... :p

WELL SAID...aint that the truth....

Mark Reccord,
Would you have any suggestions on maybe a vocal preamp or something for my vocalist. He sings and busts freestyle so it might be an idea to have one with presets(?) He gets poopy during soundcheck because he doesnt hear his voice the way he wants to. Also in asia soundguys give everyone huge reverb to sound like a ktv. I thought if he had a preamp he might be able to just plug in to the p.a., set the level and go.
Otherwise he's going to buy a line 6 delay and we'll then have to put up with his poopy soundcheck AND digital delay overindulgence.

Hey, Sound Dudes.
Do you guys have any experience with feedback limiters?
i.e. Behringers feedback destroyer or Peaveys feedback ferret.
Do they actually work at elimating feedback signals for lavilier (sp?) (wireless) vocal pacs?
What about for 10 units at once?
Any other suggestions for the proper why to use this kind of unit?

Thx.