Last night I went along to see our very own Michael Manring and Steve Lawson perform with David Friesen in a bass extravaganza. WOW! To say that it was unbelievable would be a complete understatement. It was jaw-droppingly good. Truly inspirational... All three gentlemen (in the strictest sense of the word) redefined solo bass playing. This was no show-offery, but rather three very fine musicians playing great music. There were indeed moments when I thought "How in heaven's name does he do that?" but I never once thought "WHY in heaven's name does he do that?"

Folks, you owe it to yourselves to get off your backsides and get out to hear and support these musicians. It WILL change how you think about your instrument.

And hopefully I might have pictures to post from this gig fairly soon.

Michael, Steve: Thanks for a great evening.

Sorry it's such a bad picture, but you get the idea... You can almost see Steve's grin from here. :D

b u m p...

Agreed, I went to the, ahem, Reading SL, DF & MM gig. A really good contrast of three musicians and styles, and all solo bass :)

I think my favourite set was David Friesen. His music really did it for me., it was deep and engaging and it sounded mature & heartfelt.

Steve's set was great too. Really varied and obvioulsy totally focussed on what was right for his songs.

Michael Manring just blew my mind. Although admittedly I prefered his more melodic, less technical pieces. I didnt get names but the piece played on the hyperbass with almost countless tuning changes was beautiful.

Anyway, I shall definitley be buying a few CDs in the future :)

I was also very impressed with Michael Manring's playing at the Bass Centre and while I have heard (bought) Steve's CDS, I realised that I had never heard anything of Michael's before and would be interested in getting CDs where he has played similar pieces - i.e. fairly "clean" solo bass - well I really liked the piece where Michael played 3 basses! ;)

Anybody know what CDs are available in the UK and which have material that was played last night or is in a similar vein?

As this thread is getting hijacked by those of use who went to the basscentre last night...

I'm not a fan in the sense that I've seen them live before or having any of the albums (or even heard them). It was however an excellent seminar. To see two amazing musicians make erm music and explain what they were doing was insightful.

My fave was the improvised ebow extravaganza. If you shut your eyes it didnt sound like two basses nor did it matter and I think that is the point.

Originally posted by CS

My fave was the improvised ebow extravaganza. If you shut your eyes it didnt sound like two basses nor did it matter and I think that is the point.

I know the bit you mean - there were some amazing sounds and the way they came together towards the end of the piece was simply transcendental! ;) I think the parts where Steve and Michael played together were most interesting, but I just feel I've missed out on Michael's work over the years - there haven't been many CDs available over here....?

I think I read somewhere that the album Thonk is unavailable. There does seem to be a new album out in the States. Try http://www.manthing.com (you probably have already).

I'm going stateside Spring 03 let me know nearer the time and I'll pick up some CD's for you (if its available in shops).

Michael will have to correct me when he gets time to sit at a computer again, but from talking to him I got the impression that his albums are in pretty short supply at the moment, even Stateside. He did bring some copies over with him but had already sold them - shame, as I was planning to snag some for my collection.

I did have Book of Flame on order from Amazon, but it spent about six months promising 'available in 3-5 weeks' and then I got a message saying they couldn't get it. Grrrr...

Hey, Michael, how about adding a couple of further tracks to the Manthing stash on your website and telling your record company to make sure they get some disks over here.

Wulf

Originally posted by wulf

I did have Book of Flame on order from Amazon, but it spent about six months promising 'available in 3-5 weeks' and then I got a message saying they couldn't get it. Grrrr...



Yup - I tried Amazon as well - maybe there are other importers/exporters?

I must have got the last copy of "Book of Flame" imported into the country by Amazon... (Must remember not to be smug)

Availability of his CD's was an issue I discussed with Michael at the Ocean gig. A colleague of mine is having similar trouble finding "Book of Flame" through (hardly) Amazin'.com. "Thonk" is pretty much unavailable unless you find one in a second hand shop. Hopefully this situation will be remedied fairly soon. Apparently Michael's record company are in negotiations to re-release Thonk. Which is nice... :) Maybe Michael should talk to Pillowmountain Records? ;)

Anyway, from my recollection at the Ocean gig Michael played: La Sagrada Familia (BoF), Beatles Medley, Bach Cello Suite, Selene, Helios and maybe something else (memory....) You can find recordings of the latter four tracks under www.wnyc.org here http://www.wnyc.org/legacy/shows/newsounds/nsmarch2002.html.

:::Manring plug OFF

I'll plug David Friesen's new CD in a different post when I check the details. It's also REALLY worth having.

Well I couln't find those links - but anyway, I have no sound reproduction facilities on my laptop. :(

I have never listened to an MP3!

101cd.com is showing Book of Flame as 'Usually Dispatched within 5-7 Working Days' they are in of in the UK (although the CD's seem to come in from all sorts of places)


http://www.101cd.com/music/info.asp?id=1583989&asptnr=9956

Thanks - I just ordered a copy, let's hope they are better than Amazon - I noticed they are talking about Dutch Imports?

dunno, I seem to remember the last CD I got from them came from Hong Kong but I could be getting confused (it happens often)

I've used them loads of times they're usually pretty good, I've waited for ages for some CD's but they always seem to show up in the end, its usually a pleasant surprise cos I'd forgotten I'd ordered it check out their £5.99 list

Michael's solo CDs are notoriously hard to come by - the record company presses some up, they sell in about a week, and then they take another three years to press any more...!! The two Attention Deficit CDs are available, and are both well worth checking out, as is the CD by an ambient/avant garde collaboration that Michael did a few years back with a group called 'Cloud Chamber' - if the weird improv stuff we did was your bag, then maybe that's the one the check out. you can get that at www.cdbaby.com

I'm really glad you all enjoyed the clinic and the gigs - we had a great time, and I really hope we get to do it again soon - watch this space...

It's been great fun meeting so many people - old friends and new aquaintances - on the current tour and at Music Live and the clinics.

..but, Bruce, you didn't come and say hi - did you have to leave early???? :(

take care

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Yes - I had to get back to Brighton - I made my train with one and a half minutes to spare! ;)

...and I didnt say hello because I felt ashamed and embarrassed after being occused of stalking, Steve... darling ;)

I said "Hello", followed by "Goodbye" and made the train with 5 secs to spare.

and me and howard just about figured out which platform we needed for the hammersmith & city from whitechapel, so we had no time :)

*Si*

Well, I've seen quite enough of Howard and Chris, thanks very much... :D

it would have been nice to say hi to Bruce and Si, but next time...

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

My fave was the improvised ebow extravaganza. If you shut your eyes it didnt sound like two basses nor did it matter and I think that is the point.

Yes, comepletely agreed. If a song requires musicianship to appreciate it, it aint much of a song IMO, of course :)

This is what impresses me and friends who I've subjected to Steve's music. The fact that one guy can put on a varied and engaging concert, live. It is essentially, as Steve was saying at the seminar, irrelevant that the instrument is bass.

Originally posted by Howard K


Yes, comepletely agreed. If a song requires musicianship to appreciate it, it aint much of a song IMO, of course :)

Musicianship or musical understanding? As music is to a greater or lesser degree, a language, there are going to be facets of it that are difficult for those unfamiliar with the language to engage with... I know that my enjoyment of jazz went through the roof when I developed the ability to follow the form through the solos, and hear some of what the soloist was doing to the harmony. Before, I connected with it on some sort of visceral level, but was still Oliver Twist at the window, looking in on the party {mmm, perhaps I've mixed my dickensian metaphors there...}...

...I agree that music purely aimed at the instrumentalists of a particular instrument is 'often' shallow in its musical content, and after the initial hit of being wowed by the chops, can leave you feeling a bit conned... I've certainly felt this with a lot of solo bass stuff over the years. Fortunately the tide is turning and there are more and more 'music first' solo bassists around, while circus bass is shifting off the radar, except at trade shows...

Originally posted by Howard K

This is what impresses me and friends who I've subjected to Steve's music. The fact that one guy can put on a varied and engaging concert, live. It is essentially, as Steve was saying at the seminar, irrelevant that the instrument is bass.

Which is the point, I guess. My approach is to employ my own technical skill and the technology available to me to create meaningful music. I put the stuff to work in the service of music creation, rather than having some trick that I want to impress bassists with that I then have to construct some sort of half-arsed tune around...

some musicians and non-musicians alike will listen with their eyes - bassists will either love it or hate it based on how tricky it looks to do, other people will find the sight of a shiny man sitting on stage playing solo bass over what seems to be a backing CD too much to bear, and will go and wait in the bar til I finish...

Still others will love it, and buy the CDs at the end of my set - fortunately, they do this in sufficient numbers for me to keep going... :D

As I've said elsewhere, the Level 42 tour has been great for me - lots and lots of non-bassists getting into what I do, enjoying the music and buying the CDs...

...more support slots please!

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Musicianship or musical understanding? As music is to a greater or lesser degree, a language, there are going to be facets of it that are difficult for those unfamiliar with the language to engage with...

Yes, indeed, the latter.

Although, how 'clever' a use of a lanuguage is it if no one can understand what you're saying?
I mean is jazz deeper than any other form of music because it is more complex, or is it just harder to figure the message?
Can jazz convey a deeper message than any other form of music? - That's a good question... post coming soon :)

...more support slots please!

My crappy punk band are playing downstairs at the Purple Turtle in Reading on Tuesday ;)

I didn't book it. Say no more ;)

Originally posted by Howard K
Although, how 'clever' a use of a lanuguage is it if no one can understand what you're saying?
I mean is jazz deeper than any other form of music because it is more complex, or is it just harder to figure the message?
Can jazz convey a deeper message than any other form of music? - That's a good question... post coming soon :)


I wouldn't say Deeper, just different... I can be as moved by a simple folk melody played on solo violin as much as I can by the Bill Evans trio or Coltrane on Crescent, or great country stuff like Mary Chapin Carpenter's 'I Am A Town' or Vigilantes Of Love doing 'Respendent', or The Buggles 'Video Killed The Radio Star', Prefab Sprout doing... er, just about anything that Prefab Sprout do!

It's like asking if French is a more expressive language that German - it is much more rooted in metaphor than German, which is as a rule 'stricter' and more accurate... how expressive it is is down to the speaker and their command of the language... I guess it comes down to the musician's command of the music they are playing. great blues musicians can wring so much out of three chords, but would be rubbish in a fusion setting, and vice versa - can you imagine Chick Corea's Elektric Band doing a tribute to Mississippi John Hurt??? ;)

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

It's like asking if French is a more expressive language that German - it is much more rooted in metaphor than German, which is as a rule 'stricter' and more accurate... how expressive it is is down to the speaker and their command of the language...

Well, I didnt know that of French Vs German - intrestin, but I'm not sure that analogy works as they are different languages.

Jazz is made up of the same 12 tones as any other music, there are just more complex words, strung in more complex forms...

Kinda like a medical speak or something, same letters - same building blocks, just longer more complex words. i.e broken leg Vs whatever long word doctors have for said ailment?

Hmm.

...though, ignoring the occasional accent or that funny thing that Germans use for double S that looks like a capital B, they both have the same alphabet, and even some of the same words... same basic rules of grammar (verbs, nouns, adjectives, punctuation etc...) ... :D

...not that I'm trying to be awkward you understand...

...hang on, i've got a gig to get to!!!

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

...though, ignoring the occasional accent or that funny thing that Germans use for double S that looks like a capital B, they both have the same alphabet, and even some of the same words... same basic rules of grammar (verbs, nouns, adjectives, punctuation etc...) ...

Aah, I see where you're coming from now.

I think that musical genres are not so much like different languages as different dialects of the same language.

It's fairly easy to distinguish between German and French because there is a fairly clear divide between the two (allowing for loan words that slightly blur the divide); I'm not aware of any places where people speak Gernch or Freman (a homogenous blend of the two) even in places like Switzerland where many inhabitants are fluent with both.

However, with dialects, it is much harder to put boundaries on them. For example, I can fairly clearly tell you if someone is speaking with a Scottish accent. I could probably go so far as to distinguish accents from Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen. However, I'd certainly be able to get somewhere in understanding them. If they moved down to my neck of the woods, London, they'd probably keep their accent but it would undergo some subtle changes that might be evident next time they went back north to visit old friends.

I think music is much more like these kind of linguistic divisions than that suggested by the language analogy. I'm not fully confident in suggesting that music is a completely universal language - I know there are approaches from some parts of the world that probably are different enough to qualify as seperate languages, but the spectrum of jazz / rock / pop / classical etc is certainly not that clearly differentiated.

D'ya ken what I'm sayin'? ;)

Wulf

Originally posted by Howard K


Yes, indeed, the latter.

Although, how 'clever' a use of a lanuguage is it if no one can understand what you're saying?
I mean is jazz deeper than any other form of music because it is more complex, or is it just harder to figure the message?
Can jazz convey a deeper message than any other form of music? - That's a good question... post coming soon :)

I've had a similar exprience to Steve with Jazz - although mine was probably closer to a conversion on the road to Damascus!! ;)

So - initially I thought Jazz was OK but didn't really understand it - then I saw a band playing contemporary Jazz at my local Jazz club with a 6-string electric bass player - doing some amazing stuff.

I thought - well, I'm too old to be playing pop/rock anymore - but in Jazz nobody cares how old you are and it's an interesting music that can be funky,swinging etc etc. But I had no idea about what was involved.

But when I started Jazz classes at Sussex Uni. I found out so much more about it - it as like being a complete beginner again - but it also re-kindled my enthusiasm for playing music again, after a hiatus of nearly 10 years!

But it really is only when you start to try to play Jazz that you appreciate it fully and I have discovered huge back-catalogues of amazing music that was completely "opaque" or unavailable to me before.

Having said that - there does seem to be an audience for Jazz - of mostly older people who are interested in melodies and sophisticated harmonies. Although there are younger audiences coming through from the Acid Jazz boom of a few years ago - who hear Jazz as somehow "hipper".

Non-musicians do seem to be able to hear a "sophistication" in the sound of jazz - the harmonies, the different scales that Jazz improvisors use. They seem to percieve it as a more adult music - more grown-up - whereas most other forms of music have been taken over by kids - at worst pre-teen girls!! ;) (j/k)

But - to actually be aware of what the musicians are trying to do, increases your enyoyment of the gigs no end - as Steve said.

So - even simple things like "trading 8s or 4s" - so there is a Jazz convention that it is all about playing with other people - which sort of leaves drummers out a bit. In rock - drummers just bash about as a kind of physical fitness demonstration.

But in Jazz, after the solos, you will get a section where they will trade 4,8,16 bars of the form of the tune with the drummer. So - the chord sequence continues - 32 bars for example - but the first soloist will play for 8 bars and then everyone will stop for 8 bars for the drummer, back to another soloist for 8 bars - then back to the drummer.

So - the idea is that the drummer is playing over the song as well - he or she is improvising based on the chord chart - not just hitting things to impress people - but to make music. The drummer is also reacting to what everyone else is doing and trading ideas - the essence of Jazz for me.

So - you don't just show up and play your licks or party pieces - you respond sympathetically to the situation, the material and what the other people are playing or have just played!

This is what makes Jazz gigs so interesting for me - every one is different and even if the same tune is played - it can be a completely unique and different performance!!

Originally posted by Steve Lawson


I wouldn't say Deeper, just different... I can be as moved by a simple folk melody played on solo violin as much as I can by the Bill Evans trio or Coltrane on Crescent,

Interesting example that last one - Crescent is actually quite a simple structure - you could call it a 12 bar Blues - well a minor, Coltrane 'take' on that! ;)

So - it's only 3 groupings of 4 bars - each in a particular minor key - Ok Harmonic minor is involved - but basically it is a very simple idea and structure.

Of course what a musician like Coltrane makes of it sounds more complex and there are a few chords with b5 and #5#9 - which makes for a "sophisticated" sound - but it's not incredibly complex in the way that a Mahler symphony would be.

It is music you can play easily and improvise over readily - a tune you can call and blow over. Of course the more you know in terms of Jazz harmonic theory and alternate scales the more you can make of it ......

So - you don't just show up and play your licks or party pieces - you respond sympathetically to the situation, the material and what the other people are playing or have just played!

See, this aspect of spontaneity & improv in music is what draws me to jazz.
I get bored very easily, I always have, so once I've written my lines/learnt a set for a band, I start to get bored. I enjoy gigs and I enjoy playing, but I still get bored and enjoy putting together new material with a band more than playing old.

..but I need more basic skills to start playing jazz, like chord chart reading and experience in improv in keys other than E, G, A, C and D... in my experience rocks bands tend to stick to where the dots are ;)

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Interesting example that last one - Crescent is actually quite a simple structure - you could call it a 12 bar Blues - well a minor, Coltrane 'take' on that! ;)


Well, I was thinking of the album as a whole (a definite favourite of mine in the jazz canon), but I guess it raises the notion of different degrees of complexity - without a working knowledge of jazz, you'd be hard pushed to pick out that only three basic chords are being employed, and certainly would struggle to work out where the sax improv was taking its cues from... It is an incredibly complex piece of music over a very simple form... like a lot of the later era Coltrane stuff... Maybe that's why I'm drawn to it - the notion of simple structures that one can 'climb inside' without needing to 'shed for weeks on end just to be able to get your fists round the chords... ;)

...a fairly famous bassist once said to a friend of mine that he'd be playing with some indian musicians, and that it was 'the most boring s*** I ever heard', complaining, IIRC that they didn't change chord or modulate... which should a quite remarkable lack of understanding of the nature of improv on any level, and particularly the incredible subtlety of Indian music, where the improv is as much rhythmic and timbral as it is melodic, and the harmony is, like the Coltrane example, incredibly simple...

It all comes down to hearing the layers - the underlying stuff might be very simple, but the noodling on top kicks ass! :D

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Originally posted by emandell
101cd.com is showing Book of Flame as 'Usually Dispatched within 5-7 Working Days' they are in of in the UK (although the CD's seem to come in from all sorts of places)


http://www.101cd.com/music/info.asp?
id=1583989&asptnr=9956

Wahhh!!! :(

As I said, I ordered "Book of Flame" from 101cd.com, weeks ago, but just got the following email message from them :

Order#-status / Title
29583928-W / MICHAEL MANRING - BOOK OF FLAME, CD album, ALCD1015

Meaning of status codes:
W = title is temporarily unavailable. Our supplier has confirmed this title is not currently in stock.

Hey Michael,

How about a release on a nice friendly reliable independent UK label like, say, Pillow Mountain Records ;)

There's got to be some way to get your stuff...

Wulf

Originally posted by Steve Lawson




It all comes down to hearing the layers - the underlying stuff might be very simple, but the noodling on top kicks ass! :D

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk



Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield

Of course the more you know in terms of Jazz harmonic theory and alternate scales the more you can make of it ......


I just noticed the contrast in styles, while basically saying the same thing!! :D

Sorry Bruce, I know I recommended them, if its any consolation I got the same email from them myself today (I also ordered it)

It might be worth sticking with it, my email also said 'Titles with this status usually become
available within a few days' but in light of your experience elsewhere in getting this CD I wont be holding my breath in anticipation for my copy.

I'm so sorry for your troubles in obtaining Book of Flame, guys! I'll keep on the record company about it and hopefully they will get more out there soon.

I hope my post didn't come across as any sort of criticism of you or your record company - it was just disappointment really.

Having re-read the email, as "emandell" says, there is more cause for optimism than I thought initially.

Still, if the Bass Centre gig was any guide, I think there would be demand for more copies, from people who attended the tour. :)

Thanks, Bruce. No offense taken. Alchemy has done a lot of good things, but it's tough out there for independent record companies these days. I hope they'll be able to work through these problems. Believe me, I'd love it if everyone who wants copies of my CDs could have them!

I thought I'd mention that some folks lately have told me they've had better luck ordering The Book of Flame directly from the Alchemy web site (www.alchemyrecords.com) or by calling 1-800-292-6932/Fax 781-383-8084 in the US.

Thanks again for your interest!

I managed to get hold of a copy of 'Book of Flame' on Ebay, it cost me $13.50 plus $6 to ship to the UK (about £12 in real money ) I'm taking a chance on the condition but...

Mind you, with my history of making recommendations in this forum it probably wont show up :)

A pic I took on his soolo concert in Costa Rica

A pic I took on his solo concert in Costa Rica

Two posts and no pic!! Rather like my experiences of trying to get the CD!! :D

So anyway, I was in Ann Arbor, MI last week and wandered into a fabulous second-hand CD (and vinyl) shop. Guess what I found? Thonk! Price? $7.55. BARGAIN.

BWAH-HA-HA-HA.

Great CD. I'm already an Enormous Room addict. This CD will be welded to my player for several days now.