The Mock Turtle reminded me of something that struck me from this Clinic and as I had to rush off, thought I might mention this here?

So Steve mentioned (possibly not entirely seriously ;) ) how Michael was an engineer and he was an electronics expert? This was in relation to the different approaches to solo bass.

I can't remember the exact words used, but Steve then said something along the lines of how his approach was much easier - that is building up layers of music using loops rather than the approach Michael mainly uses - which is to play everything live through the mechanics of various basses.

It struck me at the time, that the logical outcome of this idea is that it's much easier to do what either Michael or Steve do, with digital workstations, synclaviers - things like that, that are used to create music in studios and by bands like Orbital or solos artists like Aphex Twin in live situations.

I suppose that this has had a huge impact on music, as young people getting into music are now far more likely to take up DJ'ing and use samplers,sequencers, drum machine etc.

I know Steve was probably being "tongue in cheek" about this, but I wondered how much that you (Steve or Michael or anybody else) thought the character of the music you created was affected by how it was produced?

So - could somebody with a digital workstation (for example) play a solo gig and create similar music to what we heard at the Bass Centre - but with less effort?

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
So - could somebody with a digital workstation (for example) play a solo gig and create similar music to what we heard at the Bass Centre - but with less effort? I think they'd have to be quite an accomplished musician (regardless of chosen instrument) - there's more to digital music than just rehashing downloaded samples in random loops; things like Steve's contribution to the version of Mercy, Mercy, Mercy that Michael started would be much harder to accomplish o the fly using a digital workstation (unless set up in a way so that it could be played like an instrument... but then you might as well start off with a 'plank of wood with strings on' ;) ).

Also, where would our digital artist be if their equipment suddenly died mid song? I'm sure Steve and Michael could have kept us entertained using any of the amps and basses in store, but it would be much harder to make up for a failed hard drive on the fly.

Wulf

Well, I think the last part is a distraction - if you like, assume the person has mutiple system back-ups and several instruments - that wasn't the part I was interested in.

So - I seem to remember Steve talking about the making of music being the important thing and that what you used to do this was irrelevant - I'm not sure if that was what was said, but it was the impression I got and was wanting to ask Steve?

So - is the easiest way to produce a certain music the best way or is the "struggle" to get the music out, an intrinsic and necessary part of the music itself?

This is the area that really interests me.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
I can't remember the exact words used, but Steve then said something along the lines of how his approach was much easier - that is building up layers of music using loops rather than the approach Michael mainly uses - which is to play everything live through the mechanics of various basses.

It struck me at the time, that the logical outcome of this idea is that it's much easier to do what either Michael or Steve do, with digital workstations, synclaviers - things like that, that are used to create music in studios and by bands like Orbital or solos artists like Aphex Twin in live situations.

I know Steve was probably being "tongue in cheek" about this, but I wondered how much that you (Steve or Michael or anybody else) thought the character of the music you created was affected by how it was produced?

So - could somebody with a digital workstation (for example) play a solo gig and create similar music to what we heard at the Bass Centre - but with less effort?

{the above paragraphs edited for relavence...}

Bruce,

I'm not sure I said 'easier' - just that I didn't have the stamina to continue down that path - one that I experimented with at college, slapping and tapping solo pieces til my fingers nearly fell off... I was never satisfied with the sound I was getting, and when I eventually heard what Michael was doing (I got Thonk in about 1996), it suddenly became clear that my 'notes' oriented thinking was what was failing me - Michael's vision was so much more about 'sound' than anything I'd been either listening to or attempting in the field of solo bass...

...with a degree of syncronicity, it was also around that time that I got a JamMan, and the freedom that that gave me to concentrate on each part separately was hugely liberating. It seems that while Michael's solo compositions are incredibly well integrated, I was trying to think in terms of bassline, melody and chords as separate entities, and as such was making a half-arsed job of each of them when trying to play solo. Looping allowed me to focus all of my energy on each part as I was playing it...

...So 'easier' is probably not the word I would have used (though I may have done on Thursday...), it's more an issue of performance orientation - mine is to focus entirely on each part as it's happening, to think about its role within the whole, and then to decide what to do with it next...

I don't think I could get anywhere remotely close to what I do with any kind of keyboard set up or pre-recorded sample based set up. For a start, I've never heard 'my sounds' in a sample set, so I'd have to play them anyway, secondly, I very very rarely work to any kind of metronomic rhythmic structure, so getting that kind of stretchy time in there would be tricky, the random element would be all but lost (or at least, would be an entirely different process), and it wouldn't be anywhere near as organic. Remember, there's no midi triggering in my set up, no hex-pickup triggering pads - it's all real, live, processed bass. You can't get anwhere near the degree of manipulation that I can get with my hands out of a synth - you do have a much wider pallette of possible tonal ideas (eg, I can't get a piano sound from my bass - which is incidental, as I don't think I would even if I could...), but with each one, the amount of parameters over which you have direct 'digital' (5 on each hand) control is pretty small - velocity, sustain, and on some synths, aftertouch...

I've got a huge analogue curve - tonally, pitch wise, combination of pitches wise (Michael and I were talking about how on a fretless we both sometimes find ourselves pulling notes 'more' in tune than you can get them on a tempered instrument...) - it's all part of what I do, and I don't think anyone could get close to it, sonically, without playing bass... :)

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Well, I think the last part is a distraction - if you like, assume the person has mutiple system back-ups and several instruments - that wasn't the part I was interested in.I was just suggesting that last Thursday's show could have carried on with pretty much any of the combinations of gear in the bass centre. Although that would have produced very different music, I think Steve and Michael would have demonstrated their skill as musicians.
So - is the easiest way to produce a certain music the best way or is the "struggle" to get the music out, an intrinsic and necessary part of the music itself?I don't think there's much virtue in struggling for struggling's sake (hence why I've chosen to invest in a high quality instrument rather than the cheapest budget 'toy' I could find); however, there's a certain measure of 'paying your dues' which is unavoidable.

For example, in Steve's playing, you're hearing the fruit of c. 15 years worth of playing and listening. Somebody could probably reproduce most of the techniques with a relatively short period of practise but there's no quick way to hear things the way he does.

I've been playing about the same length of time (although without anything near the intensity of involvement in music) and it would be even easier for someone to cop all my licks. However, even Steve or Michael would probably find it hard to approach a new song in the way I would (whether they'd want to is another question but not relevant for this discussion).

Where I'm getting to is that I believe it's the ability to express yourself that is the important thing. For whatever reason, bass is the instrument that I find entwined with my musical personality and is therefore the tool I work with. Others may choose other instruments - or many instruments; it's not a matter of better or worse, just different.

Hurrah for diversity :D

Wulf

Originally posted by Steve Lawson


Bruce,

I'm not sure I said 'easier' - just that I didn't have the stamina to continue down that path www.steve-lawson.co.uk

I had the feeling that you were being "tongue in cheek" when saying this anyway, which was why I didn't say anything at the time.

I do appreciate the amount of control over expression that you get from your set-up; but was also thinking about the comments you made about it all being about music and that (as you quoted elsewhere) what matter is what comes out of the speakers.

I was thinking that future generations of muscians will go for what they see as the "easy" option and rather than mastering an expressive instrument; will opt for things like samplers, sequencers and drum machines - to quickly get to the point of creating music that sounds good - even if it is not exactly what they wanted to express.

I was wondering how we can "sell" the benefits of learning an expressive instrument - your last few paras do provide good "selling points" ! ;)

As I get older, I tend to find that I really only like to go to live gigs where the players do have that expressive control over their instruments - but I find that more and more people where I live, go to clubs that play exclusively programmed music and are unaware of any differences. :(

Originally posted by wulf
I don't think there's much virtue in struggling for struggling's sake (hence why I've chosen to invest in a high quality instrument rather than the cheapest budget 'toy' I could find); however, there's a certain measure of 'paying your dues' which is unavoidable.

This is another area that has been occupying my mind lately, as when I am trying to get into Jazz, the tutors/teachers I meet are inevitably involved with Double Bass, which is a "struggle" to come to terms with and get a decent sound.

I find that most DB "tutors" I have come across, so seem to have a different attitude or approach to music, to BG players. I mean there is an attitude of playing fewer notes and playing simpler lines - concentrating on getting a good acoustic sound, which supports everything else.

Coming from BG myself, I tend to be more into the idea that bass can do anything and there are lots of options for what to play. But the attitude I get from Jazz DB players is that you should just concentrate on say ...4 quarter notes per bar or the simplest approach that will fit - 2 notes or 1 .

It may be just different starting points, but I feel that the physical limitations of the DB are contributing - it is the "struggle" that is shaping the music, rather than what you would want to play?

Intrestin'

Well, not just anyone can programme a decent dance track using sequencers etc... Which is why artists like Roni Size are respected worldwide and the jungle brothers are just a couple of twats with loud jump-up basslines.

...and I agree the end result - the music - is the most (if not the only) factor worth considering.

I dont think the technology Steve uses as making it "easier" for him to make his music. I believe the technology makes it "possible" for him to make his music.

Without the loops Steve would have two basic options 1) get musicians to play his music with him - and therefore taking away the fact that it is purely Steve's music or 2) trigger pre-recorded pieces and only play pre-selected sections lives - which reduces one of the most important factors of Steve's music - the "anything can happen - I can play what the freak I like - because it's mine, all mine, bwa-ha-haaa" factor!
- Pls correct me if I'm talking total BS here Steve :)

At the Reading gig I heard somebody (an ex-girlfriends bass playing mother who happened to be at the gig... weird!) say "well he's just using some effect (meaning the loops), there's nothing difficult about that" - a ridiculous thing to say for SO many reasons!!! - pretty much every half decent bass player on Earth can play Another One Bites The Dust, but that doesnt devalue it in the slightest... and it's completely ignoring the fact that it sounds good! Like, durr!

Technically, I expect/believe Steve's music is easier to play that Michael's - Michael has monster tecnique make no mistake - but that has absolutely no bearing on how creative the music is.

Having witnessed Steve fart-arsing about with his looping gizmos on several occaisons, I thought I 'got it', but when I saw him play live it really changed my opinion of the music.
A credit to Steve is that album is record live and sounds like its done in the studio! - only when I heard/saw it live did I really appreciate it as 'live'... if that makes any sense?!

To MAKE music, of ANY kind using ANY instrument - traditional, acoustic, electric, digital or otherwise - takes creativity. I see that as fact.

Kids becoming DJs - if they do the coldcut type thing and really make new sounds from records - that's damned creative... but beat mixing records in "a set" is not - in fact Djs are probably the most over paid talentless wankers on the planet. Judge FKN Jules my ARSE!!! :mad:

I was thinking that future generations of muscians will go for what they see as the "easy" option and rather than mastering an expressive instrument; will opt for things like samplers, sequencers and drum machines - to quickly get to the point of creating music that sounds good - even if it is not exactly what they wanted to express.

Tell the kids of today that an' they wont believe yer! ;)

Well, I dunno about this.
I believe that a true musician will not settle until the music IS right, regardless of what tool they're using.

I've spent days before programming midi drums on my pc and layering stuff just to come up with some half-arsed track. Now, I get bored easily because it just doesnt feel the same as physically playing the sounds yourself, but it still takes the same level of creativity... but possibley not the same level of dedication?

i agree with howard about DJ's, beat matching idiots are a waste of space (unless your drunk in the student union ;) ), but there are a lot of very talented and creative DJ's, 1 example is DJ Shadow (go listen if u havn't heard).
i'd also like to point out that such things as midi programming is a lot more complex then people think, i did A-level music technology and while we were using computers, processors and other such gumf, we still had to have a certain musicality because its all entered via Keyboard.
i'm that same as steve, i'm not a big fan of getting down a monster technique and playing everything at the same time, i'd rather take the time, say at a workstation and put all my efforts into 1 part at a time, building and arranging the song as i go.
just a matter of preference i suppose.

*Si*

Originally posted by Si-bob
i'm that same as steve, i'm not a big fan of getting down a monster technique and playing everything at the same time, i'd rather take the time, say at a workstation and put all my efforts into 1 part at a time, building and arranging the song as i go.
just a matter of preference i suppose.

*Si*

While I don't tend to play that way, I'm certainly a fan of hearing that kind of thing done well - Michael being the perfecto example... It's just down to how you hear music.

Likewise, I can't sit down with a workstation and track things up in step-time - it's just not how I think about this stuff. It all HAS to happen in real time. I'm sure I could go in and edit bits of it after the fact if I wanted to, but I don't really need to, hence all of Not Dancing For Chicken, despite being recorded in a studio, being all 'live' takes - each one a complete take with no overdubs or post editing, other than mastering...

right, I've got a gig to get to in Croydon - wish me luck with the London traffic!

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Originally posted by Howard K
Well, I dunno about this.
I believe that a true musician will not settle until the music IS right, regardless of what tool they're using.

I agree with that, if a kid is genuinely musical, and interested in creating music, they will not settle for hacking a dance track together using E-Jay :) Things like the E-Jay programs, and sequencers and samplers might well attract people who are otherwise not particularly musical to making things cuz they think the sound cool, but I don't think it'll replace the art of playing an instrument.

steve, with a midi based program such as cubase, u can set a loop within a certain time, say 2 mins, and press record, once it gets to the end, it will loop round again, u can switch instruments in a mili-second, and so get a very 'live/one take' feeling, recording one instrument, waiting for the next loop and then recording the next instrument, thats how i worked, with very little post-editing, and u can even remove any quantisation, so u could have all the time changes u want :)

good luck with the traffic....and the gig

*Si*

Things like the E-Jay programs, and sequencers and samplers might well attract people who are otherwise not particularly musical to making things cuz they think the sound cool, but I don't think it'll replace the art of playing an instrument.

eggsakly innit.

I cant imagine programming even the most expensive sequencer can compare to pounding out a james brown style break for 8 and a half minutes!

Originally posted by Si-bob
i agree with howard about DJ's, beat matching idiots are a waste of space (unless your drunk in the student union ;) ), but there are a lot of very talented and creative DJ's, 1 example is DJ Shadow (go listen if u havn't heard).


Yes - I've heard lots from him that is very good and have a CD (whose name escapes me) with some tracks I really like. I also like Orbital,Aphex Twin and of course the masters at this sort of thing - Massive Attack - I can listen to their labums over and over!!

i'd also like to point out that such things as midi programming is a lot more complex then people think, i did A-level music technology and while we were using computers, processors and other such gumf, we still had to have a certain musicality because its all entered via Keyboard.

Well I have done a lot of this and spent about 10 years where I programmed everything and wrote music with a female singer - we did a lot of duo gigs in Brighton and around. My keyboard technique got a lot better - although I wouldn't consider myself a keyboard player as such.

But there are undoubtedly a lot of tools around now which mean you don't have to have any keyboard technique - Brian Eno (for one) has actively been working on software/systems that allow you to create music without any musical knowledge whatsoever.


i'm that same as steve, i'm not a big fan of getting down a monster technique and playing everything at the same time, i'd rather take the time, say at a workstation and put all my efforts into 1 part at a time, building and arranging the song as i go.
just a matter of preference i suppose.


Well I got really bored with doing this (I would spend a whole week on a 3-4 minute track) and wanted to get out and play with other people - this is what prompted a resurgence of interest in bass for me - when I started trying to play Jazz. :D

Originally posted by Howard K


eggsakly innit.

I cant imagine programming even the most expensive sequencer can compare to pounding out a james brown style break for 8 and a half minutes!

I'm not sure - that's only because you can do it and have taken time to practice bass. My impression from this board in particular is that the "young people" are very much into computer stuff and are real whizz kids on anything techhy.

But there is huge ignorance about music and impatience with suggestions about having to practice, rather than - just get the Tabz man!! ;)

bruce
i wasn't suggesting that programming songs on midi could possibly replace playing with other musicians, i was simply saying that from a compositional point of view i'd prefer to sit down and work on a song track by track rather then doing it all at the same time (eg some of micheals work etc). Then if i decided to play that song live (which i did a couple of times) i was able to print of the sheet music of the individual parts and find people to play them.

*Si*

On behalf of the young people...

What you say is probably true, Bruce, but 'computer stuff' is not always used at the expense of musicality and willingness to practice. I can only really speak for myself, but I know quite a bit about computers (hell, I'm working for IBM at the moment) and I've done a lot of sequencing in the past, but for me it is something to complement actual playing, not to replace it. I can certainly say I don't neglect the musicality, and knowledge of theory, and the desire to develop musically and improve my skills. I would not hesitate to use programmed drums for a recording, or synth bass, if that was the sound I was looking for, but I see it as an alternative, not a replacement for actual playing. I think some arrangements are better suited to sequenced drums, they have a different quality, which can be desirable.

Well what I meant was that the rewards you get from beaing able to actually 'make the sound' - ie, my fingers pull the strings and create the vibrations that make the audience feel good, are without a doubt infinitely greater than those attainable from pressing buttons.

Dont get me wrong, I'm a hell of a lot more techie than your average person - I work with the net, have a pc for music at home and always had with computers in the house while I was growing up, but my groove does not come in the form of a mouse-click or a cut n' paste!

...and this is where I think it falls down.

All the emotion and vibe a feel and groove in music is 100% organic. It simply cannot be emulated, and anyone who says it can is absolutely full of ****.. bring 'em on ;)

Basically, you beat the drums for 1/2 hour and you're sweating.. you physically make that groove.
That just cant compare with sequencing a pattern. The physical feel of making the music isa buzz in itself.

again, in the defense of cubase and in relation to programmed drums, u still have to play the drums in on keyboard! the volume is also based on how hard u hit the keys, so all the feeling is still there, u have to sit there and create a groove while not needing foot to hand coordination ;) i have to say that with all my midi compositions i used live bass and live guitar, theres nothing like hooking in with a drum track that you'v created and know where every little pocket is :)

*Si*

p.s.
most of Hans Zimmer's work (film scorer) is done on computer

Originally posted bu Si-bob
again, in the defense of cubase and in relation to programmed drums, u still have to play the drums in on keyboard!

You don't have to. With cubase for example, you can program the notes in directly in the piano-roll-style editor (is it called key edit?).

yeah, but its not as good as playing it in yourself, more feeling comes across in the piece then.

*Si*

Well, I'm on the same side of the argument as Howard - I really only go to Jazz and Classical gigs - along with world beat- type music : Youssou 'N Dour, Femi Kuti etc.

I only like "Real" music where people are controlling all expressive parameters with their hands. ;)

But this seems to be less and less the case - most clubs in Brighton only play "programmed music" and if you talk to any "non-musicians" they just don't appreciate the difference or that there is any difference! ;)

But the gigs I go to, it is very noticable that the audience is late 30s upwards - younger people are just not going to these gigs. I don't know if Brighton is a good example, but there are loads of gigs on any night of the week and I try to go to alll the ones where there are "real musicians" of any sort - I even went to see St. Ettienne, recently,where it was mostly programmed.

So - the impression I get is that anybody under 35 just does not go to see "live" musicians and rather is in a club, which plays recordings of exclusively programmed music. :(

u still have to play the drums in on keyboard

Well, I've always programmed the drums in myself, beat by beat.

I find it easier to play on a kit than on a keyboard, but my technique limits the patterns I can play.

I do use Nuendo in the same way as you probably use Cubase and ys the final result is cool and rewarding, but I still dont think it's really comparable in tersm of input and reward.

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Well, I think the last part is a distraction - if you like, assume the person has mutiple system back-ups and several instruments - that wasn't the part I was interested in.

So - I seem to remember Steve talking about the making of music being the important thing and that what you used to do this was irrelevant - I'm not sure if that was what was said, but it was the impression I got and was wanting to ask Steve?

So - is the easiest way to produce a certain music the best way or is the "struggle" to get the music out, an intrinsic and necessary part of the music itself?

This is the area that really interests me.

I have recorded a lot of my tunes on my own, through my PC by neccessity. What I find makes it harder is the lack of interaction that you get while playing something simultaineously with other band members.

When I play with my PC I am more inclinded to play simply, and do the tracks as I envisioned them, with no variation and few fills.

But when I play with my band I get ideas, I get more adventurous, I try to push myself a bit.

i think that bruce has a very neagative view of us youngens :) i think you'll find that more and more young people are going to live gigs, it may not be the type of music u like, but its still music (just about....cradle of filth really is cutting it fine :) )
and i don't know what kind of impression i gave off wen we all met, but 80% of gigs i go to is jazz/blues/soul orientated with a couple of rock/metal gigs thrown in for good measure :)
while i do think that such programs such as cubase are excellent for compositional purposes, if i was serious about the piece i was working on it would eventually be played live with other musicians and so take on a whole new life and feel anyway.

*Si*

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
So - the impression I get is that anybody under 35 just does not go to see "live" musicians

I do.

I only like "Real" music where people are controlling all expressive parameters with their hands

Bruce, do you not like *any* music with, say, sequenced drums?

As far as live music goes, I'd agree with ya - it's about group energy, and I'd prefer to see a live band with all real musicians playing live.

But I think that recording is a different animal altogether than live performance. When I record my songs, I'm generally not trying to pretend that there's a band there playing all the parts - and in creating the sound world I'm looking for, sometimes programmed drums are exactly what I'm looking for.

I saw an interview with Phil Collins once (a drummer no less!) and he was talking about one of his songs (it might well have been Another Day In Paradise) and he was saying he chose to use a drum machine, not the play the drum part, because he was looking for that straight, hypnotic, repeated pattern, exactly the same every time. And it was effective for the song.

REM use a LOT of drum machine work to

*Si*

Originally posted by Si-bob
i think that bruce has a very neagative view of us youngens :) i think you'll find that more and more young people are going to live gigs, it may not be the type of music u like, but its still music (just about....cradle of filth really is cutting it fine :) )

Well - I look at loads of listings magazines for Brighton - I mean I used to go to heavy metal gigs in the 1970s - but there don't seem to be any of these about now!! ;)

I just don't see any young faces at live gigs in Brighton. But go down West Street any weekend and you will see long queues of them trying to get into clubs playing programmed music - in fact the queues go further than the street ;) - same for clubs on the seafront.

Originally posted by moley
Bruce, do you not like *any* music with, say, sequenced drums?



Well I have answered this question about 5 times in the last few hours!! So if you read just this thread I mentioned that I like Orbital, DJ Shadow and Massive Attack and saw "St. Ettienne" play live recently with all programed drums.

I probably have several hundred CDs in my collection with programmed drums!

So what's your point?

In context, I was talking about the music I like to see live.

but what i those clubs playing???
some kind of dance music i bet, and that just so happens to be what those people are into, fair play to them! there aren't that many 'live trance bands' about ;)
maybe u just have very uninspired youth in brighton, i'v only been there once, so i don't know :D .
all i can say is that there are plenty of young people still into seeing live music and appreciating it and we shouldn't be discounted as the "technological generation"

*Si*

just as a little side bit.. : i had a chat with Massive Attack's bassist the other day, he was scootering bout my campus, very nice guy.

Originally posted by Si-bob
but what i those clubs playing???
some kind of dance music i bet, and that just so happens to be what those people are into, fair play to them! there aren't that many 'live trance bands' about ;)
maybe u just have very uninspired youth in brighton, i'v only been there once, so i don't know :D .
all i can say is that there are plenty of young people still into seeing live music and appreciating it and we shouldn't be discounted as the "technological generation"

*Si*

It may be that the sort of live music "young people" want to see, is not catered for, by venues in Brighton - whereas it is renowned to be very good for clubs.

There still seems to be a vast youth market for programmed music while a lot of tours, I see advertised are clearly aiming at an older market, with nostalgia for the 80s - like the Level 42 and 21st Century Schizoid band ones that Steve has told us all about!! ;)


I think I'd better be careful now ! :D

Originally posted Bruce Lindfield
I probably have several hundred CDs in my collection with programmed drums!

So what's your point?

None, I was just asking the question, not criticizing. It just looked like from what you said that you didn't like any programmed music, I wasn't sure if you meant just live music or not.

In context, I was talking about the music I like to see live.

And it turns out you did mean just live music :)

well, as much as i love a good "discussion" about the generation devide in music nowdays, i gotta get off and finish a powerpoint presentation on AOL Time Warner.....hurruh :rolleyes:
c y'all later

*Si*

And I'm just off to get tickets for two live gigs - Dennis Rollins' BadBone and Femi Kuti! ;)

I pity you all, you've strayed into my pet topic!!!! BWAHAHAHA!

Well what I meant was that the rewards you get from beaing able to actually 'make the sound' - ie, my fingers pull the strings and create the vibrations that make the audience feel good, are without a doubt infinitely greater than those attainable from pressing buttons...

All the emotion and vibe a feel and groove in music is 100% organic. It simply cannot be emulated, and anyone who says it can is absolutely full of ****.. bring 'em on CAVEAT: There is some absolutely PANTS eletronic music and "DJ-ing" out there in the world. Some people are happy to regurgitate preset samples and other songs. I agree that is worthless. However I'd challenge Howard's statements above MOST STRONGLY.

Take some of the previously mentioned ARTISTS like Orbital, DJ Shadow, The Orb, Chemical Brothers, Underworld etc. If you haven't heard them (or seen them play live) then please do take the opportunity when it next comes around. They all "make the sound" using their fingers, pretty much every bit as organically as using "a plank of wood with stringy bits of metal". They use MIDI sequencers to govern what notes are played when, but they trigger the sequences and samples live, and then tweak the sound source (synth, record player) or use the *mixing desk* as an instrument. (Yes, mixing desks are instruments. They can be played very badly!) Viz all of these bands can change the mix of a song so that it sounds different every single performance. Want a longer buildup before the bass drops? No problem. Want to create a huge filter sweep a la Daft Punk to drop that bass line? Sure, there you go.

It's not just about using presets (or GM soundsets, ugh!) on a synth you know. There's a lot of artistry goes into choosing the RIGHT sounds, the RIGHT samples. You can tell an Aphex Twin track, or a FSOL track almost straight away by the fact that their synth sounds are SO DIFFERENT to everything else that's out there. Richard James (Aphex Twin) actually takes apart and splices some of his synths in order to get the sound he's after. Talk about FSU? Mind you, he is a little eccentric... :)

DJ Shadow's records are like a painting that's made up of scraps of other pictures. The new picture is totally different... It doesn't take away from his artistry that he uses "somebody else's music". The artistry is in HOW he puts the bits together to form a new entity. Daft Punk have very simple songs and song structure on a superficial level, but I would argue that they are masters at production and mixing. Listen to Ronnie Size, or any of the LTJ Bukem "Good Looking/Looking Good" record label stuff to hear really beautifully put together drum and bass - complete with soul, attitude, groove, feel and vibe.

Controllable synths have MANY different parameters that can be changed infinitely at any time (using your hands!): LFO's, Cutoff, Resonance, distortion, these can be driven by velocity, pitch, another synth line... the list can go on and on (so I won't!). Have a look at the software package Reason. It's easy to knock up a dance track that sounds cheesy, but I challenge you to make something that is as good as "Block Rockin' Beats" by the Chemical Brothers without spending significant time on it.

If I play Steve's Modulus what you hear will sound crap. Why? Not because of the quality of the bass, but because I don't know how to get the best out of the instrument. Similarly people who don't know how to drive their synths or sequencers, and don't push the envelope will sound very bland and uninteresting. Other people will twist it, change it, tweak it and generally FSU until they get the sound they're looking for.

What is my point? It may be "easier" to use software, sequencers, synths and electronic gizmos to make SOUND, but there is still great artistry involved in putting those sounds together to make good MUSIC.

EDIT: Sorry, I keep thinking of other things I want to say... I was once lucky enough to win a competition to see Orbital play live at a really small venue on the release of their last album. Unfortunately their studio disk drive crashed before the gig and they weren't able to play. This was 4 or 5 days before a nationwide tour... Don't assume that all these artists have plentiful backups to rely on. Shame. Bet they have backups a-plenty now though. :D

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Well - I look at loads of listings magazines for Brighton - I mean I used to go to heavy metal gigs in the 1970s - but there don't seem to be any of these about now!! ;)

I just don't see any young faces at live gigs in Brighton.

re. Brighton, I get a different impression-
venues such as the Concorde 2 and the Pressure point put on live bands.
the band My Deaf Audio are based in Brighton.
they're a lot like Hundred Reasons.
also there's quite a few skate-punk bands around there- they all sound a lot like Blink182/Green day- a bit too derivative for my liking, but the point is that they're around- one I know of plays the Komedia and Pavillion theatre- a lot of them are in their teens, and/or play all-ages shows.

a friend's band, Schism, who I saw last week on the day of the Bass Centre clinic (hence my non-appearance there) at the Monarch, play all-ages shows around the country (Nottingham rock city, Wolverhampton civic etc.)-
young whippersnappers are still into "real" bands (even if in this case they're clones of Blink182 ;) )



also re. programmed dance music- note that bands like Massive Attack, Red Snapper etc. use live bass at gigs.
I think there'll always be a demand for "real" instruments at live gigs- although to a non-muso audience their visual quality may be all they appreciate.

Originally posted by Steve Lawson
but with each one, the amount of parameters over which you have direct 'digital' (5 on each hand) control is pretty small - velocity, sustain, and on some synths, aftertouch...

I've got a huge analogue curve - tonally, pitch wise, combination of pitches wise (Michael and I were talking about how on a fretless we both sometimes find ourselves pulling notes 'more' in tune than you can get them on a tempered instrument...) - it's all part of what I do, and I don't think anyone could get close to it, sonically, without playing bass...

if the term "digital control" excludes the pitch bend controller on a keyboard, has anyone devised a keyboard controller with individual pitch bend controllers on each key?
sounds feasible.


but anway, my view is that at a gig I want to see live performance, and not to be left wondering whether the sound coming out of the P.A. might as well be coming from a DAT.
and an instrument such as a bass provides visual proof of live performance.

that said, I did recently enjoy a DJ bootleg set, using live video mixing as well- apparently the first of its kind in the world, by the Eclectic Method.

I've seen Orbital (several times), The Orb (ditto), Chemical Brothers, Plaid, Mu-ziq, Goldie etc. and I'm certain they were "playing" live. Even if that means triggering loops, sequences and mixing. That's a "live" performance. I saw Jesus Jones play once, and even though they had guitars I couldn't be certain that they weren't playing over a DAT...

I'm sure you could link pitch bend to the aftertouch on a keyboard. Might take some fancy MIDI implementation but I don't see why you couldn't.

Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator


re. Brighton, I get a different impression-
venues such as the Concorde 2 and the Pressure point put on live bands.
the band My Deaf Audio are based in Brighton.
they're a lot like Hundred Reasons.
also there's quite a few skate-punk bands around there- they all sound a lot like Blink182/Green day- a bit too derivative for my liking, but the point is that they're around- one I know of plays the Komedia and Pavillion theatre- a lot of them are in their teens, and/or play all-ages shows.

Do you walk through Brighton every week - every day?

I think your friends are "exaggerating" about the gigs they play - my band has played The Komedia 3 times this year and I walk past it every day. They have a listings magazine and a website you can check.

http://www.komedia.co.uk

Look now at the sort of acts/events they put on!
They simply do not have gigs from bands that sound like "Blink182/Green day".

The Komedia is like a Cabaret venue with tables with candles on!! They have world music, acoustic folk, occasional funk nights, cabaret and comedy performers!!

The Pavilion is quite a big venue, they do have occasional gigs, but these are big names - like Tindersticks - they don't book local bands, but rather national tours and they have lots of Arts events - I went to a book reading there!

Concorde II is the one big venue for bands - I saw St. Etienne there a couple of weeks ago. BUT - they produce a monthly programme with things on every night. Now - the live bands are rare events - look ata typical months as I do - they have big posters all over Brighton - and for 3 or 4 "rock" bands you will get 20 nights where it is DJs only!! :(

So loads of DJs have residencies there and the Big Beat Boutique is almost every other night there!

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Do you walk through Brighton every week - every day?

I think your friends are "exaggerating" about the gigs they play .

maybe they were, Bruce.
then again, you didn't know the Brighton Walkabout puts on live bands- and I know they do for a fact as I played there last year with my covers band;)

FWIW, the Blink182/Green day-alike band in question was called One brain short.
their website had pics of the gigs at the Komedia and Pavillion theatre (I think the Pavillion cost them quite a bit to book, with a couple of other bands).
unfortunately, the site's been taken down since they split up.

the bass player joined another band and they're using the same site designer-
http://www.out-of-touch.net/

there's a list of gigs they're playing/played- looks like small pub gigs for them,

.....*EDIT* I just had a look at their gigs page- looks like they're planning to do a gig at the Pavillion theatre! -
you should go and check them out, Bruce:p

..and also links to other bands in the area. there seems to be some kind of underground scene going on at least.
looks like the kids are still into playing guitars.
whether they're any good is another matter, of course....

But you're missing the point - you're talking about one or two gigs over a year.

I'm talking about listings which show 50 - 100 events per month!! :eek:

The reason I didn't know about your walkabout thing is because they don't advertise. I get listings with literally hundreds of things I can choose from over the next 2 months!!

Brighton has two or three monthly listing magazines, the Komedia, The Dome and Brighton Centre all put out magazines of their own! There are alos 4 or 5 Brighton listings websites and each venue has its own website.

Go and look at the Komedia website I linked to above and look at the sort of gigs they are putting on reguarly.

The point I am making is not that there are no bands like that at all - but rather that they are swamped by other stuff - if you live in Brighton you will see far more clubs/DJs advertised than any punk/rock/pop bands.

I would say that the number of young people going to Clubs with programmed dance music in Brighton outnumbers those going to bands like you mention by 40 to 1 at least!! For every gig like that, there are 40 heavily advertised Dance events.

Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator


maybe they were, Bruce.

the bass player joined another band and they're using the same site designer-
http://www.out-of-touch.net/

there's a list of gigs they're playing/played- looks like small pub gigs for them,



I looked at the website and there is only one confimed gig at a 6th Form college in Haywards Heath and their next gig is "TBA" at Brighton's equivalent - they are playing in schools!!!

I think this proves my point - young bands don't get any pro gigs - whereas young DJs can walk into big clubs with audiences of several thousand and charge big money!!

I have heard groups of young people in bars, coffee shops etc in Brighton raving about the latest DJ - and it is far easier to get a "gig" as a DJ in Brighton, than as a "real band"!! :(

Originally posted by Steve Lawson


While I don't tend to play that way, I'm certainly a fan of hearing that kind of thing done well - Michael being the perfecto example... It's just down to how you hear music.

Likewise, I can't sit down with a workstation and track things up in step-time - it's just not how I think about this stuff. It all HAS to happen in real time. I'm sure I could go in and edit bits of it after the fact if I wanted to, but I don't really need to, hence all of Not Dancing For Chicken, despite being recorded in a studio, being all 'live' takes - each one a complete take with no overdubs or post editing, other than mastering...

right, I've got a gig to get to in Croydon - wish me luck with the London traffic!

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Hope the gig went well - I just realised we (me mostly ;) ) have taken this into a lot of tangents and local nooks and crannies!

Going back to the original topic and different methods of producing music and different playing styles as Steve mentioned :

I think it is something that often is difficult in internet forums like this - so like Steve I am a "fan " of lots of different types of music, that I wouldn't necessarily want to play myself.

I often find I am split between talking about things as a player/musician and as a fan or member of the audience.

So - I really liked the music that Steve and Michael made at the Bass Centre clinic, but it is not a style or type of music I would ever want to play myself - so if anybody asked my opinion I would say it is too much like hard work - I'm not that self-reliant and I love playing in bands where people are dancing!

So I am happy to listen and be amazed, impressed as well as moved and interested - but if somebody asked me about what I would want to play or asked me for advice - I would probably say avoid this kind of thing! It's too hard - take up DJ'ing or join a funk band! :D

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
I think it is something that often is difficult in internet forums like this - so like Steve I am a "fan " of lots of different types of music, that I wouldn't necessarily want to play myself.


I think this is a really important area in the self-education of any musician - the see listening not just as either a) enjoyment or b) learning stuff to play but also c) just finding out what's out there...

One of the problems with so much solo bass music is that people write music for other bassists, who often (certainly not always) listen half with their ears and half with their eyes, so you end up with music that looks incredibly impressive and is insanely complex to play, but that your average music fan would have no interest in at all...

So it's vital to listen to other instruments, other styles, musicians trying to acheive completely different goals to yourself, and listen for the intent and the impact rather that the specifics of technique or harmony or whatever...

I get a heck of a lot of inspiration from listening to people like Keith Jarrett, Bill Evans, Jim Hall, Coltrane, Miles etc... any yet there's very little 'Jazz' in what I do when I play solo, in the strictest sense. What I pick up from them is an aesthetic, an approach to performance and a corrolation of sound and mood...

Same goes for Singer/sonwriters like Bruce Cockburn, Joni Mitchell, James Taylor, Jonatha Brooke, Lucy Kaplansky, Julie Lee... their ability to tell a story in music as well as words is hugely inspiring, and something that I take to my own stuff, without ever knowingly sounding like any of them...

The last couple of tours that I've done have been to audiences that would tire pretty quickly of 'circus bass' (though obviously playing looped solo 6 string fretless with an e-bow does have a certain freak-value... :D ), so I've got to make it musical... It's why playing with Michael, and with David Friesen made a lot of sense - both are consummate musicians who have a symbiotic relationship with their instruments - the instrument gives then their 'voice', and they in turn find ways of saying what they want to say on that instrument, rather than just thinking 'here's a cool trick that'll impress people walking past at the NAMM show...'

So as it applies to listening to other bassists - I find it odd when people say 'well, I'm a bass player but don't play solo, so I doubt I'd be into your stuff...' it makes me wonder what they listen to at home - only CDs with bass on them???? only CDs with bass on them in a specific style???

What we all do is make music - it's not bass-music or guitar-music or sax-music, it's just music that either works for you or it doesn't... listen to it all, judge it according to the aethetic of the performer first, and your own measure of what's right and wrong later and hopefully you'll learn something... I do all the time! :)

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

Yes - I listen to all sorts of music with no bass guitar in it at all, as well as some where I am only listening for how the bass is played.

But it does surprise me when some of the Jazz musicians I know will only go along, if there is some good trumpet or sax (for example) and so will miss a great piano trio gig.

I might have mentioned how one of the most interesting things I heard was at Jazz Summer School where all the tutors (25 or so) had their names drawn out of the hat to play completely free improvised duos - so you could get trumpet + drums, bass and sax etc etc

All the student audience were enthralled and a lot of people were realy surprised how much they enjoyed it. I reckon those same people would enjoy the sort of things you were doing with Michael - but of course thry would never consider going to a non-Jazz gig with two bass guitarists+!! ;)

Hey all
that pulling names out of a hat and playing with weird and wonderful instrument combo's sounds like so much fun, i'd love to try that 1 day :)

*Si*

Some of the combinations were quite "fun" - while others took it more seriously - it really brought out the character of the players.

So I remember, one of the drummers, who is quite a character, sat down at his kit and contemplated. Then he got up and proceeded to open a window quite noisily. Somebody said something - offering to help by opening another window, I think - to which he shushed them and said sternly "I've started" clearly indicating by his expression that this was part of the peformance!

This provoked huge laughter and he couldn't help smiling himself then! ;)

haha
u gotta love drummers ;)

to another lecture i go, i get to go home today and play my fretless, yehaw, just might have to bring it back to uni!

*Si*